A personal view regarding salat

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Progressive1993 you be right with the verses you used that the slw does not mean prayer but other verses in the quran which use slw do mean prayer.

17 110 Say, ?Call on God, or on the Lord of Mercy- whatever names you call Him, the best names belong to Him. Do not be too loud (in prayers) ''Bisalitika'' , or too quiet, but seek a middle way.

So a clear voice is only needed in prayers? What about reading aloud?

2277 Believers, bow down, prostrate yourselves, worship your Lord, and do good so that you may succeed (yes the slw is not used in this verse but the actions of how we should worship god are shown here).

Correct, slw is not mentioned - why assume that it is linked to slw then?
Also, the verse is translated poorly.

2277 O you who have attained trust/faith! Show humbleness to, submit to and serve your lord, and do good that you may succeed.

I can understand the arguments that the ''slw'' in the Quran does not necessarily mean prayer in some verses. However my feelings are that as a Muslim we do need to pray and remember our lord.

The "mumineen" are asked to keep up the "salat" (bond), not the "muslimeen" http//free-minds.org/node/10
I also suggest that you read through all the links here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0

Peace

truthseeker171

Salaam Rana,

I really appreciate your explanation regarding the middle prayer. I will of course continue to read and learn and ponder, but that gives me something to look out for. For the moment I am happy enough doing the 3. In fact I feel so relieved doing 3 - I feel much more like I'm heading in the right direction.

Three times -salaat- a day seems to be supported by the Koran.

Verse 2267 For each community we have decreed a set of rites that should be uphold ?..

The rite of the ?salaat- is a special element of the general form of ?salaat- in being in contact with the system prescribed by God.

The Koran states that the ?salaat- as a ritual is a special form of remembrance of God to be performed at specific time-frames.
Verse 4103 - ... the ?salawaat- are decreed for the believers at specific times. -
The followers of the Koran alone have several ideas about the number of daily ?salawaat-. The word ?salawaat- has a plural form of at least three.
The believers can be divided into groups having a two-, five- and three-system.
Regarding the completeness and perfection of the Koran only one of these systems is valid.

The two-system

Some believers claim that the daily number of ?salawat- is two.

They recognise the dawn -fadjr- and evening -isha-prayer, both are mentioned in verse 2458.
Verse 2238 can be read as the believers have to perform the salawat especially the middle -woosta- prayer. The Arabic word ?we- does not always mean plus.
Verse 54 gives koranic evidence for the broader meaning of the word -we- - the (catch of) hunting-dogs as example of the allowed good things. Good things and hunting-dogs are linked by the word -we-, indicating here an example.

But acceptors of the two-system translate the Arabic word -woosta- often as the excellent prayer or balanced prayer.
The Koran does not state which of the two prayers; the dawn- or evening-prayer would be the excellent or balanced one, the Koran does not state that one is more excellent or balanced than the other.
The word ?salawaat- has a plural-form of more than two - assuming that here the word ?salawaat- does not refer to all the prayers of a lifetime but to a daily system.
The Koran describes three prayer-times
Verse 2458 mentions the names of the dawn- and evening-prayer and thereby there timing.
Verse 1778 states what the third prayer-time is from the time when the sun declines from its highest point at noon until sunset.
This is confirmed by the description of the prayer in verses 629-10 during communal - commercial activities -salaat el jooma-. Before and after the prayer there are social activities, so this prayer can not be the dawn- or evening-prayer, because of the lack of required daylight before or after the social activities concerned.

The five-system

Most believers claim that the daily number of ?salawaat- is five.

This only can be done when sources next to the Koran are accepted.
The Koran mentions only three salaats -fadjr- (dawn) - 2458, -woosta- (middle) - 2238, -aisha- (evening) - 2458.
-Salaat el dhoor-, -salaat el asr- and -salaat el maghreb- and the timing of them are not found in the Koran - these are human innovations.
Acceptors of the five-system seem to have an inconsistent way of reading verse 11114 and verse 2238.
They read verse 11114 in a way that there would be three prayer-times mentioned in it. They say that this verse relates to the prayers at both borders of the day - dawn and evening and that there would be a third one mentioned the night prayer.
If this would be correct then the middle prayer of verse 2238 would be -salaat el maghreb- in their system.
But the Arabic word -we- both in verse 2238 and verse 11114 is better not to be read as plus, but as a connective word indicating an example, explanation or stipulation.
In verse 11114 is stipulated that the dawn- and the evening-prayer should be performed during both parts of the night adjacent to the two borders of the daylight; the dawn-prayer before sunrise and the evening-prayer after sunset.
Actually the night-prayer -salaat el lail- is not mentioned in the Koran as a general ruling, verse 5040 mentions praising the Lord during the night; that does not indicate to a general ?salaat-, praising the Lord can be done throughout the 24 hour lasting day in several forms. Furthermore this verse is directed towards the messenger-prophet Mohammad.
The plural form of ?salawaat- in verse 2238 indicates that there are more than two daily ?salawaat-. If one assumes the reading of -we- as plus than there could be for instance four salawat.
There can not be a middle ?salaat- if there are only four ?salawaat-, so is assumed that there should be five ?salawaat-.
But the names of the ?salawaat- and the description of the prayer-times in the Koran relate to only three ?salawaat-, not to five.
This indicates that the word -we- in verse 2238 is not to be read as plus but rather as especially.

Some notable human innovations
-Salaat el aisha- is actually the broadly accepted -maghreb-prayer.
Verses 3831-32 give koranic evidence that -aisha- is a period of the night -lail- with still some daylight - the period of dusk.
The changing of the name of -salaat el aisha- into -salaat el maghreb- and inventing an extra prayer of the total darkness, which was abusively then named as -salaat el aisha-, are human innovations.
In verse 2458 the dawn- and evening-prayer are mentioned, the -dhor-prayer is notably absent in verse 2458 and in the rest of the Koran, the word -dhor- indicates to a period of rest during the day - not to a prayer; the so called -salat el dhor- is a human innovation.
The so called -asr-prayer is not mentioned in the Koran either and there is no description of its timing in the Koran, there is no mentioning of the technique of a stick and it's halfway-shadow to measure the assumed timing - this is hadeeth-based conjecture; the -asr-prayer is a human innovation.

The three-system

Some believers recognize that there are three koranic timings of the daily ?salawaat-.

The Koran mentions only three prayers and describes three prayer-timings
-salaat el fadjr- 2458 dawn - 2187, 11114
-salaat el woosta- 2238 afternoon until sunset - 1778, 629-10
-salaat el aisha- 2458 evening - 11114, 3831-32

Truthseeker171

yesuri2000

Salam

Thanks Truthseeker that was a really good explanation regarding the timings of salat.

Salat al wasta to me indicates the middle prayer. I'm not sure how it is translated to excellent or balanced one. And you are correct the Quran does not state which prayer is the excellent one if indeed it is only two times.

2277 O you who have attained trust/faith! Show humbleness to, submit to and serve your lord, and do good that you may succeed.

Progressive you said that the translation I used was poor. Could you show where you got your translation from, is it your own translation? I have just gone over a number of translations and can not find one similar to yours. Just some examples

Muhammed Asad O YOU who have attained to faith! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Sustainer , and do good, so that you might attain to a happy state!

Pickthall O ye who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Lord, and do good, that haply ye may prosper.

Progressive muslims O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.

Abdul Haleem Believers, bow down, prostrate yourselves, worship your Lord, and do good so that you may succeed. (This is the translation I have used previously)

Muhammed Sarwar Believers, worship your Lord, bow down and prostrate yourselves before Him and do virtuous deeds so that perhaps you will have everlasting happiness.

Rashad Khalifa O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed.

George Sale O true believers, bow down, and prostrate your selves, and worship your Lord; and work righteousness, that ye may be happy

All the above translations (there are more) seem to point to bowing down or kneeling and prostrating yourself in the worship of god.

yayyuh alladhna man ir'ka (bow) wa-us'jud (prostate) wa-u'bud rabbakum waifAAaloo alkhayra laAAallakum tuflihoona

Correct, slw is not mentioned - why assume that it is linked to slw then?

I have linked it to slw because I am not sure in what other aspect bowing down and prostrating is done other than when you are praying.

Peace

Wakas

peace truthseeker,

Your explanation and reasoning is poor in some places. You refer to points not even made, e.g. I have never read anyone who advocates the two system implying there is one salat better than the other, and trying to determine which is one is most balanced/excellent. Then members such as yesuri respond saying you provided a good explanation!

I wouldn't mind so much but when you click on the salat section of the forum, there is a thread made sticky with a compilation of links of the most informative discussions on the forum about various points, yet its obvious some haven't even read it.

There is no point in repeating it over and over, it's all on the forum for people to review.

If a person is confused about salat, good. Now ask that same person have they read and studied every occurrence of salat in The Quran? I wonder how many confused people would answer yes? Less than 1%?

truthseeker171

Salaam Wakas

Your explanation and reasoning is poor in some places. You refer to points not even made, e.g. I have never read anyone who advocates the two system implying there is one salat better than the other, and trying to determine which is one is most balanced/excellent. Then members such as yesuri respond saying you provided a good explanation!

I wouldn't mind so much but when you click on the salat section of the forum, there is a thread made sticky with a compilation of links of the most informative discussions on the forum about various points, yet its obvious some haven't even read it.

There is no point in repeating it over and over, it's all on the forum for people to review.

If a person is confused about salat, good. Now ask that same person have they read and studied every occurrence of salat in The Quran? I wonder how many confused people would answer yes? Less than 1%?

May be it is good to consider your role as a moderator here - if you have a more objective or more subjective attitude in this matter.

You state that in some places my explanation and reasoning is poor - without giving evidence for this.
You only hint to my opinion about existing interpretations of the word -woosta- as balanced and excellent.
I do not know what you have read on several sites about this subject - but some believers believe for instance that the -woosta-, here as the middle-prayer, is the excellent prayer because it is supposed to be more difficult to pray during social activities - compared to the relative solitude of the morning and the evening.
Anyway the interpretation of -woosta- as balanced or excellent implies that there would be another less balanced and less excellent type or timing of -salaat-. For this there seems not to be any evidence in the Koran.
In your answer to Exodus of October 12, 2010, 021701 PM, you say that you agree with the writer, in regarding -salaat- as a form of social duty within the systeem of Deen - Why did you not mind then to mention that this discussion is repetitive according to your opinion?

The impression arises that as long as you agree then the subject is allowed and at the moment where arguments are brougth forward that you disagree on, you act as a moderator to warn against repetition of subjects and say that you are minding much - anyway it is good that you point to the sticky subject on several subjects on -salaat-.

I hope you will consider this,
peace,
Truthseeker171

Wakas

peace t171,

Anyway the interpretation of -woosta- as balanced or excellent implies that there would be another less balanced and less excellent type or timing of -salaat-.

"Implies" to you perhaps. This shows you have not read the compilation of links salat thread. I recommend it.

For this there seems not to be any evidence in the Koran.

Thanks for demonstrating how to refute your own strawman argument.

Why did you not mind then to mention that this discussion is repetitive according to your opinion?

The impression arises that as long as you agree then the subject is allowed and at the moment where arguments are brougth forward that you disagree on, you act as a moderator to warn against repetition of subjects and say that you are minding much

If you're expecting me to remind people in EVERY post I make about past discussion or forum search, then you are mistaken. However, I do regularly remind people of the forum search or past discussion. In fact, I am probably the member who reminds others the most.
As a side note, there is regular posting of views on this forum I disagree with. I only read about 10% of posts on the forum.

For me to point out each and every error in another's post is time-consuming. Especially if its been discussed before. I'd rather provide a link, then if they choose to read it, great. If not, why waste my time if they dont wish to spend their time? Effort in = benefit out.

anyway it is good that you point to the sticky subject on several subjects on -salaat-.

You're welcome. Read up on it, and feel free to post your thoughts after.

yesuri2000

Salam guys

I think this thread has gone off to a different direction to what I wanted.

There have already been many debates on this forum regarding the number of salats or whether or not salah is the quran is referring to prayer.

Let me state first of all I am a believer in the three times a day view. I don't think this will change. However I really appreciate the views of those that follow a different approach. After all life would be very boring if the whole world had the same views about everything. But I also feel it's unfair to just dismiss someones opinion because it does not match yours.

The message I wanted to just put through is mainly aimed towards those that do believe that we should pray and that is prayer does not have to be a daily thing.

I've been brought up and I'm sure many on here have as well to believe that we can not miss any prayers at all. To do so is sinful. We have to make sure we always pray and pray on time too. But in today's day and age this is just not possible. I'm sure Allah would have known that many Muslims would be living in the Western world or non Muslim countries and provisions would not be made to give us time to pray. I've had jobs where a room to pray in was not available. Is it therefore my fault that I could not pray the dusk prayer for example because I was at work and there was nowhere for me to pray? I only wanted to say that I believe that it is ok if we miss a prayer every now and then because sometime circumstances prevent us from doing so. I also just wanted to say that I have not seen anywhere in the Quran that says that prayer needs to be everyday. The main message I do get from the quran is that prayer needs to be regular. Like I said previously, this can be every few days, once a week etc.

Anyway I know some people here do not believe that salah is part of Islam and that's your opinion and I respect that greatly. But please bear in mind there are also many who do believe that we should be praying and my only aim was to get across to these people that we should not be worried if there are times we can not pray.

Peace

truthseeker171

Salaam Wakas,
probably there is still some misunderstanding.

peace t171,
"Implies" to you perhaps. This shows you have not read the compilation of links salat thread. I recommend it.
Thanks for demonstrating how to refute your own strawman argument.

Because of your qualifications an answer here seems to be at its right place.
It is an unproven assumption of yours that if one reads the relevant threads one would come to only one conclusion.
So what seems to be a strawman-argument for you is not by definition a strawman-argument for others.
Not everbody agrees that the word -woosta- of verse 2238 is related as a contrast to the -salaat- while walking or riding in times of fear - verse 2239. The word -qoomoo- of verse 2238 seems to be the word that is related to as a contrast to verse 2239.
So the interpretation of -woosta- by some believers as excellent or best or most balanced would imply that other time-frames of -salaat- would be less, for this the Koran does not give any indication. So this can be one of the reasons that the better interpretation of -woosta- is middle.

If you're expecting me to remind people in EVERY post I make about past discussion or forum search, then you are mistaken. However, I do regularly remind people of the forum search or past discussion. In fact, I am probably the member who reminds others the most.
As a side note, there is regular posting of views on this forum I disagree with. I only read about 10% of posts on the forum.

Here you have your own red herring.
I did not ask you to read every post or remind people in every post about past discussion.
I just asked you to be more objective
I wrote
--- 2. In your answer to Exodus of October 12, 2010, 021701 PM, you say that you agree with the writer, in regarding -salaat- as a form of social duty within the systeem of Deen - Why did you not mind then to mention that this discussion is repetitive according to your opinion? ---

This is not a matter of reading and or answering every post, it is about that it looks like that it was not at random that you let the discussion going on when you agree. But in this case when something was written that you did not like, you decided to act as a moderator - hereby unfortunately giving next to that your unproven subjective qualifications.

I advice you not to mix the function of a moderator and a participant to a discussion in one posting.

I hope that you understand what I mean.

Peace,
Truthseeker171

Wakas

peace t171,

Two points

I did not assume a person who read past threads or links would come to one conclusion. I assumed if one had done so, they would not invent an argument not even stated then point out flaws in it and pretend a point has been made, i.e. a classic strawman argument.

Interestingly, you again repeat your strawman argument in your post above.

From http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue.

So let's see if it is relevant or not

You said

Why did you not mind then to mention that this discussion is repetitive according to your opinion?
The impression arises that as long as you agree then the subject is allowed and at the moment where arguments are brougth forward that you disagree on, you act as a moderator to warn against repetition of subjects and say that you are minding much

Clearly implying where I disagree, I warn against repetition. Ergo, I would have to post in such threads to mention repetition.

My reply

If you're expecting me to remind people in EVERY post I make about past discussion or forum search, then you are mistaken. However, I do regularly remind people of the forum search or past discussion. In fact, I am probably the member who reminds others the most.
As a side note, there is regular posting of views on this forum I disagree with. I only read about 10% of posts on the forum.

Clearly implying there are many views posted on the forum I disagree with yet I do not post and mention repetition (even though vast majority of topics have been discussed before).

I remind often, not all the time.

############

I advice you not to mix the function of a moderator and a participant to a discussion in one posting.

If I remind of past threads/links, this is not a function exclusive to moderators. Anyone could do this, and non-moderator members do this.

Your replies to me are exactly the poor logic/reasoning I referred to in my original post. As I recommended, read the compilation links thread.

I hope that you understand what I mean.

Wakas

peace yesuri,

Let me state first of all I am a believer in the three times a day view. I don't think this will change. However I really appreciate the views of those that follow a different approach. After all life would be very boring if the whole world had the same views about everything. But I also feel it's unfair to just dismiss someones opinion because it does not match yours.

I did not dismiss, I critiqued and recommended specific ways to do further research, and then later offered further discussion.
Anyways, I have two questions for you

Have you read and studied every occurrence of "salat" in The Quran?

Have you read the compilation links thread on salat?

If the answer is no, that's cool

ayman

Peace Yesuri and Al-Sabr,

Although I can speak Arabic my language ability is not enough for me to start looking into the root of the word to define the meaning. I also believe that this can lead us to all sorts of conclusions about the meaning of the word and for me goes against the Quran being made easy for us to understand.

as well as not in mine..the arabic language in that aspect is very direct i think..for example, words of the same root word, like islam - aslim- muslim, you can expect that their meaning is very similar, their meaning would not spread out into different subjects!

Since you guys know Arabic, perhaps this article might be useful. You can download it from Scribd here

http//www.scribd.com/doc/28890747/Arabic-Salat-Article

Can also be found posted here

http//www.egyptianoasis.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34650

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

Salaam Wakas,
if your intervention as a moderator was at random and not because you did not approve my answer to a former posting within this thread then I accept that, but the appearance is different.

The issue was not if one has to warn in every case against repetition.
The issue was if you are objective enough in this matter, so you changed the subject.
Again - in this case your timing of intervening as a moderator seems to be biased seeing your earlier answer to Exodus of October 12, 2010, 021701 PM, agreeing with the writer, without warning of repetition.

I assume you understand my advice not to mix up the role or moderator and participant in one posting.

Let the straw-men and red herrings be where they are.
I understand your message, I hope you understand mine.

Peace,
Truthseeker171

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Yesuri2000, you said (hilighting done by myself)