A personal view regarding salat
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Peace Progressive
I, to my own surprise am starting to thing that the 2 salat theory is correct. HOWEVER, there is definitely a noon congregational prayer on Fridays (day of congregation - yam al juma).
Too bad that I don't think one is supposed to "pray" twice a day
The first one is a quote I have taken off you from another thread. The second one is what you responded to me after I stated you follow a two prayer system. Maybe you later changed your view and now you don't believe people need to pray twice a day or believe salat means prayer. So apologies if I missed that. Just wanted to show where I got the view that you follow a two prayer view.
One thing I would like to ask though. If people dont believe Salat means prayer, so do you therefore not pray at all?
I know that the prayers of today seem ritualised which is why I have changed the way I pray by shortening it and only saying verses which praise Allah and that I understand. After all my understanding from verse 443 is that we should not approach prayers until we know what we are saying.
Im just curious as to what others do.
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Peace yesuri,
The first one is a quote I have taken off you from another thread. The second one is what you responded to me after I stated you follow a two prayer system. Maybe you later changed your view and now you don't believe people need to pray twice a day or believe salat means prayer. So apologies if I missed that. Just wanted to show where I got the view that you follow a two prayer view.
I see. Yes, I have changed my view. I have stated though in this thread that "salat" is not "prayer" - a good look on your side, though D In fact, I have changed many of my many views on topics in The Quran over the time which I have been a member on this forum.
One thing I would like to ask though. If people dont believe Salat means prayer, so do you therefore not pray at all?
My view is that "salat" means "bond", "embrace" "act of following closely", etc. and that the timed salat which the believers are to maintain/carry out is to be done through means of reading The Quran/following God's laws/remembering God. My view is similar to what is presented in the first link that I have posted in this thread.
Peace
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"salat" is actually quite an obvious thing in The Quran, but it is our pre-conceived notions that get in the way. One of my favourite examples of this is the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601228.msg259718#msg259718If you show anyone but a Muslim this verse, they will never say salat means prayer, and if they are observant, they will reason that salat is being contrasted to taking an idle narration that misleads. Now, ask them what could salat be?
Their answer might just be something quite remarkable... ) Enjoy.
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I belive it only one salat but two time a day,i ask you that what we shoud do in salat fajar and salat isha accounding to quran?
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Could you please explain the meanings of the verses 4101,102, and 103, below? Please elaborate on the particular circumstance, which necessitated the revelation of those verses?
( ( (
The "sujud" above is the same as acknowledging that they heard and obeyed.
Now if you interpret "sujud" as physical prostration then is this how you do your physical prostration?
Peace,
Ayman
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salat two tome a day but it is not pray but only quranic education training etc class.
Salaam miah. I am convinced that the salaat in 4102 can not be any education let alone quranic education because it is performed on the active war front, which is where the believers who perform it are warned by God to be on the alert and take precaution
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them... - .
Being on the active front during a war is like being on a raft afloat the rising waves during a flood. It is in no way a place where you can take education. It is a place where you give your dear life if you do not concentrate and if you get involved in things like education to weaken your concentration.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
They are performing a ritual consisting of 1 (م kiyaam + 1 (د sajdah in order to submit themselves to God for His mercy and moral help in combat.
What means here can be seen in verse 103 .
As for the question whether is physical or verbal we have to take into account that it follows , which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace Hassan
You wrote
Salaam miah. I am convinced that the salaat in 4102 can not be any education let alone quranic education because it is performed on the active war front, which is where the believers who perform it are warned by God to be on the alert and take precaution
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them... - .
Being on the active front during a war is like being on a raft afloat the rising waves during a flood. It is in no way a place where you can take education. It is a place where you give your dear life if you do not concentrate and if you get involved in things like education to weaken your concentration.
While your assertion that it does not mean Quranic education may be correct, your reasons against this weaken your argument for ritual prayer.
Consider an army of ten thousand. If the rasool were to per form the ritual prayer with them in two sessions, this would be the ideal time for the enemy to attack even with half on guard. If he were to lead them in more than two sessions, the time required to perform these rituals could become astronomical. This is without even taking into account the time needed to remove & put on their armour. The ritual in this instance would be extremely impractical.
It would make more sense that the salat here be in the form of briefings regarding strategy with special care being taken that the Quranic etiquette regarding war, prisoners, etc. are being observed.
Although my study on salat is incomplete, I would ask that you look at the verses where salat appears, then go back in the text to the start of the theme and forward to the end of the theme. When I did this a common thread developed which indicates that the salat is an event that is used for the purpose of ensuring that the pure message is used as a measuring stick for our daily life decisions both on an individual as well as a community level. The common thread is that in many cases a departure from or hiding of the truth is mentioned. Salat is used to keep this kind of thing in check. This is especially true when autonomous communities are formed that accept the message. Before such a community has authority, they are a revolutionary movement. Once they have authority, they tend to become just another government. This is why there are verses that exhort the reader to establish the salat if given authority in the land.
Anyway, my study is not complete & I will post in more detail once I'm ready.
Imraan
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Salaam Imraan.
One of the reasons why I am convinced that mentioned in 4102 is a ritual because it starts with the believers doing in it and ends after they prostrate (ا
"When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. - .
You needn't carry out your briefings regarding strategy BY MEANS OF AND .
Another reason is that this ritual is timed (ا as is explained in verse 103 whereas your so-called briefings regarding war strategy (or actually battle tactics here) are never timed; you give your briefings whenever need be.
Plus, God's truth is that mentioned in 4101-103 cannot be brefings on battle tactics because if you fail to give them to your soldiers to the extent that they understand the fulfillment of the tactics is a matter of life or death for themselves, you lose the battle, which was the case in the battle of Uhud. However, in verse 101 God says that you are entititled to do without ; that is, the so-called briefings if you are expecting an enemy attack
"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye fall short of your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you - .
God will never advise you to do without the briefings on battle tactics; otherwise, He will be advising you to lose the battle.
As for the assertion that an army of ten thousand believers cannot perform the prayer in two sessions, that is contrary to the fact. During the Battle of the Dardanelles probably more than five thousand Turkish soldiers performed their prayer all together in one session, probably with the unit heads repeating loudly the imam's words so that they will be heard by all the soldiers who participated. Here is a photo that depicts it
http//img231.imageshack.us/img231/5715/anakkale9kf1rt.jpg
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
salat withtime means quanic education and training class(26/219 and your movement among those who fall compeletly obedient means followers) morning and evening time,only two salat in one day,17/78,11/114,20/130,20/130,33/40,25/5,7/205,6/52,etc...
salat means deen 19/59,19/60 also see these verses
salat means deen allah order aqemudeen in 42/13 to these prophets and same prophets in these verses 21/72,21/73---20/12,20/13 and19/30,19/31 so
deen=salat see verses 22/41 also 11/87 follow allah laws is salat means quran
salat means allah laws means waahe see verse 33/56,33/42 and the book bring us dark to light 35/31. in these verses(33/56+42 and35/31) is clear that quran is salat as well.
To get understandind training (education)of quran in special time is salat Asal and salat Ish ,to act accounding to that education(quran) means to follow allah laws is Abadat(not worship or pray) and to establish allah laws in the socity need own land and government (22/41+24/55) is called estabish salat and zhaaka means Aqeemudeen(islami system).
Raka is define in verses 77/40+41+42+43+44+45+46+47+48meansmove from badtrack to goodtrack(laws of allah7/3) to giveup forfather track and follow only book of allah 2/170,5/104,10/78,11/62
Sajaada
compeletly accepted quran and follow only allah laws orders 84/20+21+25 etc.....obedient,fully committed(16/48,22/18,16/49,2/116 etc......)my eglish is not good but i try my best.
perfoming rakat salat is frud cheating sharp practices and artificial(made by a man) in islam before mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) (4/142+8/35) and after death mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) arround ioo years later the salat meaning changed again in the form of namaaz(rahat salat) 29/45 -
Peace all,
my view
985
And they have been commanded no more than this to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish SALAT; and to practise ZAKAT; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
ZAKAT is a continuous process of self development for betterment.
This formule is well known and I think is the key to understand SALAT.
My view is you cannot "Atoo zakat" reach the state of "continuous process of self development for betterment" if you do not "aqimoo SALAT" = self study and follows the words of GOD!
ZAKAT is the goal , SALAT is the means.
PEACE
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Peace Ayman,
The "sujud" above is the same as acknowledging that they heard and obeyed.
Now if you interpret "sujud" as physical prostration then is this how you do your physical prostration?
Peace,
Ayman
Which verse/verses did you quote above?
Thanks
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Salaam.
Al-Maidah 6
Al-Maidah 7
Al-Israa 107
Samia has once suggested reading Israa 107 and 109 together and pointed out, if I remember correctly, that is an idiomatic expression to mean . That is, here has got nothing to with the human chin.
Al-Israa 109
What is more, even if is verbal in Al-Maidah 107, is physical in An-Nisaa 102, as I tried to explain in my first post on this page
As for the question whether is physical or verbal (in 4102) we have to take into account that it follows , which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Any meeting,assembly,gethering any time in which follower have to be follow instructions central government(accounting to deen) regarding war 4/102,any emergency circumstance 62/9+10,meeting 42/38 or ,educaction17/78,training(all type training,instruction,health and safety etc. etc.) Quran used word salat as well. reading a Quran in gethering7/204 and individually 2/205,Before salat(learning class or meeting)5/6
but Quran used word salat in different meaning also but basic meaning of salat remain same everywhere in Quran.see these verses,
SALAT(basic meaning)-------------69/31,14/29,38/56,58/8,82/15 etc.
SALAT with time or name(education,training,according to Quran).....24/57,17/78,20/130,11/114 etc. this is class room see 26/219mohammad teach Quran day and night,that is why kaafar says in Quran 25/2,21/5,24/4(kaafar say these are just stories listen day and night).
SALAT means deen....... Aqeemudeen used only in verses 42/12(21/72,2173,20/12+13,19/30+31 same prophets in 42/12 but word used salat,Also see 19/59+60
SALAT means Quran......33/56,33/42(salee bring dark to light and in 14/1,57/9 al book bring dark to light so salat=book means Quran)Also see book means salat 29/45+7/170.
SALAT means good wish.....9/84,9/103,3/39 etc. ALSO means well done,excellent 9/99
SALAT means government.....24/55+22/14
SALATmeans laws of Allah....11/87,24/55,7/170,70/17+18+19+20,70/22-31,70/32/35,74/42-47,23/1-11,107/1-7,3/134,5/54,19/96,etc...
SALATmeans ALzikr..........Quran means zikr38/1,zikr means Quran 36/69 SO zikr means salat 62/9(33/43+14/1+15/9) -
I searched for Samia's post but was unable to find it. I came across this info by Wakas instead (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637)
I was reading Mustansir Mir's unique work "Verbal Idioms of The Quran" and in it he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in AQ means to humble oneself before God, and cites a poem by Imru al-Qays* about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they (mighty trees) "fell to the chin".
*alleged Classical Arabic poet.
For those unfamiliar with Mustansir Mir's work, you can read some of his articles online.
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I find it interesting that people can cite 4102 in support of sujud=prostration, and those who disagree with that, also cite 4102 showing it cannot mean that.
Who is right?
Well, one thing is clear, this verse has been discussed in detail before, and it would seem both sides ignore certain aspects of the verse, and unfortunately, this approach usually does not lead anywhere.
I am currently writing an article on SJD, in which I discuss all occurrences, including 4102, in detail. Hopefully it will be of help.
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I find it interesting that people can cite 4102 in support of sujud=prostration, and those who disagree with that, also cite 4102 showing it cannot mean that.
Who is right?
Well, one thing is clear, this verse has been discussed in detail before, and it would seem both sides ignore certain aspects of the verse, and unfortunately, this approach usually does not lead anywhere.
I am currently writing an article on SJD, in which I discuss all occurrences, including 4102, in detail. Hopefully it will be of help.
One thing is definite mentioned in 4101-104 is performed on the active war front while the believers are aware that the enemy may attack any time now. That is why God warns them to be on the alert and keep their weapons within their reach even during
"Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them - ."
"...the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush - "
It is like being on a raft afloat the waves during a flood. The raft is in no way a place where you can take education of any sort. If you treat over there as if it were a class meeting, your concentration is crucially weakened and you lose both your dear life and the battle which you are out there to fight.
Your polytheistic enemy and you are like two gladiators out there doomed to kill each. Actually it is most probably the day of hunain described in At-Tawba 25, when "the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat - ".
http//www.hurseda.net/resim_galeri/5.JPG
Wakas, please take this fact into account when you are writing your article and concentrate on the words and only in 4102 so that you will not digress. I also have studied the related verses as well as I can. I will try to respond, God willing, and try to be of help.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace Hasan,
Samia has once suggested reading Israa 107 and 109 together and pointed out, if I remember correctly, that is an idiomatic expression to mean . That is, here has got nothing to with the human chin.
Either the whole expression is taken physically or not. If "chin" is not taken physically then "sujaddan" cannot be taken physically. An example that is to be taken physically is in 7143, where we hear "khar Mousa s'aqan", Moses fell in shock. One cannot take "fell" as idiomatic while "shock" as physical.
I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead. It is quite telling that the god uses this particular idiom (which fabricators of poetry later borrowed) since one cannot prostrate physically to the chin and the forehead at the same time. It is either or. So what the god is essentially telling us is that whether we interpret "sujud" physically or non physically, what sectarians are doing is not correct.
What is more, even if is verbal in Al-Maidah 107, is physical in An-Nisaa 102, as I tried to explain in my first post on this page
As for the question whether is physical or verbal (in 4102) we have to take into account that it follows , which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.There is nothing in the word "qam" that says it is physical for sure. Just read the same word further down in 4127
"That you stand for the orphans in equality."
Is this same exact verb as in 4102 physical?
Peace,
Ayman
