A personal view regarding salat
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Peace Hasan,
Either the whole expression is taken physically or not. If "chin" is not taken physically then "sujaddan" cannot be taken physically. An example that is to be taken physically is in 7143, where we hear "khar Mousa s'aqan", Moses fell in shock. One cannot take "fell" as idiomatic while "shock" as physical.
I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead. It is quite telling that the god uses this particular idiom (which fabricators of poetry later borrowed) since one cannot prostrate physically to the chin and the forehead at the same time. It is either or. So what the god is essentially telling us is that whether we interpret "sujud" physically or non physically, what sectarians are doing is not correct.
There is nothing in the word "qam" that says it is physical for sure. Just read the same word further down in 4127
"That you stand for the orphans in equality."
Is this same exact verb as in 4102 physical?
Peace,
Ayman
I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead.
Salaam ayman.
The expression in is idiomatic; that is, it has got nothing to do with the chin. Example "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin." Trees do not have a chin. The chin in this context is nonexistent. You do not have to carry out your physical prostration to something which is nonexistent when prostration is concerned.
The example is from a fictitious character, alright, but it is from the language of the Arabs, which is factual. And the fact that is idiomatic is the result of a comparative study of 17107 and 17109, which are also factual.
Plus, it is not cited in order to deal with the question whether SAJDAH is physical or not; it is not cited in favor of or against any claim. It is cited during a study.
As for FALTAQUM in 4102, this verb may mean stand up like in 2739 as well as deal with like in 4127.
before you stand up from your place (TAQOOMA - )
That you deal justly with the orphans (TAQOOMOO - ْIts derivative QIYAMAN may mean standing like in 4103 as well as support like in 45.
Praise Allah standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides (QIYAMAN - )
your property, which Allah has made a means of support for you (QIYAMAN - )Which meaning is correct depends on the context. That is why I requested Wakas to consider the fact that in 4102 is performed on the war front, open to enemy attack any time now. The believers over there are too tense to attend a class meeting.
What do you think they do on that active war front as a response to the messenger?s call for QIYAAM and SAJDAH?
I have once taken part in a kind of military combat; so I know. If somebody was crazy enough to give us a Quran lesson over there, I would simply disobey him supposing he was kidding. But I needed to pray.
Please excuse me but I don?t understand you at the moment because I don?t know what you think actually is in 4102 if it is not a prayer consisting of 1 qiyaam + 1 sajdah.
Is it a Quran lesson, a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here on this forum has suggested, an activity to boost the morale of the believers, or what?
If it is a Quran lesson, can 2222 be taught over there? If not, are there any objective criteria to decide what can be taught and what can?t be taught? If you are entitled to count out certain teaching points, why aren?t you entitled to give up the whole crazy idea?
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Salam guys
Just something that came to my head as I was reading through the posts. Chapter 5 verse 6 talks about ablution before prayer. If salat does not mean praying, why are we asked to purify ourselves before salat? What is the salat in this verse mean?
The main reason this verse hit me was when looking at the war angle in this debate. 56 allows us to use soil if we can not find water for ablution. I think in a war setting where it might be difficult to get some water it could be a lot easier to just use the soil on the ground.
Just a thought
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Salam guys
Just something that came to my head as I was reading through the posts. Chapter 5 verse 6 talks about ablution before prayer. If salat does not mean praying, why are we asked to purify ourselves before salat? What is the salat in this verse mean?
The main reason this verse hit me was when looking at the war angle in this debate. 56 allows us to use soil if we can not find water for ablution. I think in a war setting where it might be difficult to get some water it could be a lot easier to just use the soil on the ground.
Just a thought
Yes, before gathering to read The Quran and follow God's commandments, one is to be clean, or at least, as the example of the soil shows us, mentally prepared.
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Peace
Before considering the point mentioned by yesuri3000, take a look at the following extract from Dr. Qamar's book "The Truth About Salat" regarding 443
The fifth point
Further on, the divine verdict says?wa in kuntum mardha aou ?ala safarin, aou jaa?a ahadin minkum min al-ghaait, aou laamastum an- Nisaa?a fa lum tajidu maa?an fa tayammamu sa?eedan tayyaban?.
And if you be sick, or on a journey, or one of you returns from lavatory, or you may have touched women, and may not find water, then you perform ?tayammam? with pure/clean clay.
?fa amsahu bi wujuhikum wa ayidiyakum?. So, you rub your faces and hands with such clay.
Studying this Verse a little bit more carefully, we come across a big question. Please note the divine saying ?.?aou jaa?a ahadin min kum min al-ghaait? ? ?or one of you has returned from lavatory and may not find water, so YOU ALL may perform tayammum?.
According to all the available translations, there is a clear command saying that ?anyone of you may return from lavatory, may not find water, so you all perform tayammum?.
Please note ?jaa?a ahadin min kum? cannot be translated other than ?any one of you?, whereas, the order is issued for the whole community. Because, if the order was meant for the only one, it must have been like this ??jaa?a ahadin min kum min al-ghaait, fa huwa fa tayammam?. ?if one of you may return from lavatory, he may perform tayammam?. And,if the plural form was to be used, it should have been like this ?iza ji?tum min al-ghaait, fa tayammamu? when you all may return from lavatory, you all may perform tayammam?. Therefore, to emphatically say that, if one of you may return from lavatory, then you all may perform tayammam, definitely requires deliberation. At this point, certainly due to an act by one of the community members, the whole community is obliged to undertake some corrective measure.
Considering the next part of the Verse, we will find that the word ?maa?a? here may not be the literal ?water?. It rather is ?that water? by which is cleansed the filth of evil. And neither is the ?Sa?eedan tayyiban? equivalent to pure/clean clay, which would certainly smear the already clean faces and hands with dust. That which was clean, now becomes
dusty. So?.these words actually mean ?some height which is pure/clean?.I found this interesting. Are there any other explanation for how this issue of tyammum adresses the individual and the community at the same time or at least, the singular and the plural?
Imraan
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peace Imraan, all,
To me, using the singular in that context implies it is one person doing that act, as in by oneself, then it gives guidance collectively after, e.g. saying all of you come from the toilet, might seem odd. Also, it uses the plural for the other actions, so to make a point will be a stretch I think.
But there could be an easy way to check this, e.g. cross referencing the usage of "any one of you", see where else its used and if plurals follow etc.
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peace all,
For those recently joined members of this site, you may find interesting to note that majority of long-term members here regard it as a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat.
Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.
I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, how is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!
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Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.
I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, how is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!
I came to the same conclusion regarding the number of prayers. Just be aware (maybe you are already) that if you choose to pray 3 times per day as it suggests in Quran (some say too, but back to my point...lol) - if you pray 3x instead of 5x then many Muslims will say you aren't Muslim anyway. I'm really glad that your faith is strengthening. Hamdulillah. sun
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Friends, I must admit that I'm considered an apostate because as a white american texan male, i always felt very uncomfortable and out of place at the masjid and ended up falling away after 6 months of being muslim. However I starting thinking about how Islam seemed to be filled with so much extra manmade filler such as the jews have with their hedge-laws for everything.
I found this site and have been reading much about the miracle of 19 and i'm beginning to feel convicted in my heart for ignoring Allah. It makes sense to me that prayer is 3 times a day, but I can't find any information about how prayer is different from how the sunnis do it. Aside from how often you pray, how is the prayer performed? Is it just like mentioned and described on submitters.org ? I want to know how Allah wants me to pray!
Check out the links on this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.msg201534#msg201534
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Peace Hasan,
The expression in is idiomatic; that is, it has got nothing to do with the chin. Example "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin." Trees do not have a chin. The chin in this context is nonexistent. You do not have to carry out your physical prostration to something which is nonexistent when prostration is concerned.
You are missing the point. Either the whole expression expression is idiomatic or not. The word by itself is not an idiom. So you can't say the word "" by itself is idiomatic but the rest of the expression is not just so that you can avoid the issue of inconsistently interpreting "sujud". By the same tokes, had the poem said "...mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they fell to the chin sujjadan" then no one in his right mind would consider the idiom to be just "the chin" as you underlined. You don't seem to know the basic simple fact that this is not how idioms work.
Peace,
Ayman
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I don't know if something is wrong with me
At first ,i use to see it clearly 5 times a day, and in the quran , believe it or not
than i started to see it as 3 times a day , and trust me, i see it and convinced
But lately, i understood it as 2 times a day, and i am convinced
i don't know what nextMaybe wakas will help me, i see the times from the rubbing of the sun to the closest part of the night
and the same thing in dawn, when combining all verses and checking them as timing relatedbut i am not sure yet that salat is standing bowing prostrating or just studing and reading the quran, the verse that keeps telling me it's the prostrating physically is the one where the companions prayed with the prophet, a group than another
I don( know, maybe next i am gonna be convinced of only 1 salat , well, that's impossible, i believe it's 2 times , and it makes sens, one when u wake up , and a prayer before sleep
Wakas please help; many times what u say make sense or most of the time,
Can u please search the different meanings of the word salat in the quran, I know that some of the words are used for establish the law, or the constitution and all , but still, these 2 times are for what kind of salat -
peace,
but i am not sure yet that salat is standing bowing prostrating or just studing and reading the quran, the verse that keeps telling me it's the prostrating physically is the one where the companions prayed with the prophet, a group than another
Read about 4102 here
See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.htmlThen for background information in general, see http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
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Check out the links on this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.msg201534#msg201534
Thank you for the links! After reading many of the articles on this site, as well as browsing through the forums, one thing has been bothering me.
Allah says his Quran is complete and he has made it easy to believe. Also that he does not wish for his way to be difficult, yet no one seems to agree or are able to really explain what is expected from believers. Some feel that they pray twice, and only read the Quran, while others believe it is 3 times a day and that physical prostration is important.
I wonder how much confusion is caused because we have preconceived notions caused by generations of assumptions of what islamic prayer and daily obligations should be as taught by Sunnis.
If the Quran is so easy to understand, why isn't it easy to understand? Are we over-complicating it?
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peace cnb,
Many long term forum members have much more coherent views regarding salat, and in terms of practical differences, very little difference.
I wonder how much confusion is caused because we have preconceived notions caused by generations of assumptions of what islamic prayer and daily obligations should be as taught by Sunnis.
Probably a lot.
If the Quran is so easy to understand, why isn't it easy to understand? Are we over-complicating it?
Probably.
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Peace CNB,
If the Quran is so easy to understand, why isn't it easy to understand? Are we over-complicating it?
This is a myth. I have not seen a single passage that says that the great reading is easy to understand. There is a passage saying that the great reading was made easy for rememberance. This is quite different from understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
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Thank you for the links! After reading many of the articles on this site, as well as browsing through the forums, one thing has been bothering me.
Allah says his Quran is complete and he has made it easy to believe. Also that he does not wish for his way to be difficult, yet no one seems to agree or are able to really explain what is expected from believers. Some feel that they pray twice, and only read the Quran, while others believe it is 3 times a day and that physical prostration is important.
I wonder how much confusion is caused because we have preconceived notions caused by generations of assumptions of what islamic prayer and daily obligations should be as taught by Sunnis.
If the Quran is so easy to understand, why isn't it easy to understand? Are we over-complicating it?
Peace,
if you make the effort nothing is difficult...still people does not make the effort to understand it.
A simple example
for me chineese language is difficult (nearly impossible) to understand yet 5 years old chineese childrens can speak and maybe read/write!
Peace
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Peace CNB,
This is a myth. I have not seen a single passage that says that the great reading is easy to understand. There is a passage saying that the great reading was made easy for rememberance. This is quite different from understanding.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
In Surah 54. Al-Qamar (The Moon) (Yusuf Ali Translation)
It quotes the same passage 4 times
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And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
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And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
The context of these passages seem to be an admonition towards the Quraish and 4 examples were given of different peoples who were given warnings by God and rejected. So it seems it should still apply today, the Quran *Must be easy to understand AND remember if we are to understand the warnings and heed Gods commands.
I know no arabic but Al-Fatiha so I'm not in a place to perform exegesis on these 4 ayats, so could someone possibly help and explain? Can the phrase understand and remember be translated differently? ???
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Peace CNB,
In Surah 54. Al-Qamar (The Moon) (Yusuf Ali Translation)
It quotes the same passage 4 times
17. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
22. But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
32. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
40. And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember then is there any that will receive admonition?
The context of these passages seem to be an admonition towards the Quraish and 4 examples were given of different peoples who were given warnings by God and rejected. So it seems it should still apply today, the Quran *Must be easy to understand AND remember if we are to understand the warnings and heed Gods commands.
I know no arabic but Al-Fatiha so I'm not in a place to perform exegesis on these 4 ayats, so could someone possibly help and explain? Can the phrase understand and remember be translated differently? ???The word "understand" doesn't occur in those passages. The exact word used is "rememberance".
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
I have nothing against physical prostration but then if you really believe that it is physical you have to do it to the chin and not the forehead. It is quite telling that the god uses this particular idiom (which fabricators of poetry later borrowed) since one cannot prostrate physically to the chin and the forehead at the same time. It is either or. So what the god is essentially telling us is that whether we interpret "sujud" physically or non physically, what sectarians are doing is not correct.
Verses 17107 and 17109 relate to falling prostrate to the chin by those who have been given knowledge before - probably the people of the book (i.e.Torah, Gospel), they are described as falling on their chins crying when verses of the Koran are recited to them.
These verses are not normative in the sense that all believers who prostrate during the -salaat- should fall on the chin. Since a special group of people is mentioned here - the people of the book. Furthermore, the recitation to them of verses of the Koran in this context is different from the regular daily -salaat-. Verse 17108 relates that the people who hear the recitation, say glory be to our Lord. Surely, the promise of our Lord has been fulfilled.
During regular -salaat- there is normally not such an audible reaction from the several participants.
Recitation of Koranic verses can also be done at another occasion than the regular -salaat-.Verse 4829 mentions the ones who are with the messenger who have the marks of prostration on their faces.
If this verse is read in a literal way, as is done with verses 17107 and 17109 - then one can conclude that the prostration is not to the chin within this context of prostration by the compagnions of the messenger. In general the beard could hinder the formation of marks on the face as a result of prostration to the chin, rather a prostration to the forehead would cause a (temporary) mark on the face.
Hereby is assumed that having a beard was a rather common feature amongst the male believers during the time-frame of the life of the last messenger-prophet.Anyway in the Koran there is not found a normative ruling that the physical prostration of the believers during -salaat- should only be to the chin.
Truthseeker171
