Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
-
so?
he was a sunni muslim for less than 10 months until his assassination. He had been with NOI many years and when he left he was approached by sunni to learn Islam. If that man had lived longer he would have seen the holes in hadith as he did in NOI. What he saw at Hajj was NOT what is in hadith and more than likely he was still looking into Quran with new unracist eyes than ever being introduced to hadith.
I still don't get what Malcolm X has to do with any of this conversation though.
-
he was a sunni muslim for less than 10 months until his assassination. He had been with NOI many years and when he left he was approached by sunni to learn Islam. If that man had lived longer he would have seen the holes in hadith as he did in NOI. What he saw at Hajj was NOT what is in hadith and more than likely he was still looking into Quran with new unracist eyes than ever being introduced to hadith.
this so relevant!
-
yeah little group the 12 persons active in this forum. Of course !
Alhamdulillah... We are a little group group
1140
1140 So, when Our command came and the chamber erupted. We said Carry in it a pair of two from each, and your family; except those against whom the word has been issued; and whoever has believed. But those who believed with him were few.3413
3413 They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and images and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. O family of David, work to give thanks. Only a few of My servants are thankful.3824
3824 He said He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few. And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.5610
5611
5612
5613
5614
5610 And those foremost, who will be from those foremost?
5611 They will be the ones who are brought near.
5612 In gardens of bliss.
5613 Many from the first generations.
5614 And a few from the later generations.May Allah guide us all towards the Correct Path.
Mohammed M. Khan -
I have a huuuuuge comfort and feel so blessed and favoured to belong to the Truth.
How can I be bothered by 12 people who talk on the net, is that a real bind, yall don't even know yourselves in person.
You don't even imagine what are the true binds ; It is to pray shoulder to shoulder with your muslim brother, to have chills when the imam recites Quran. To feel your sins washed when you make ablution, to feel the honor to walk on the steps on the Prophet Muhammad PBUH when eating with your right hand, when you say Bism'illah before you put the food on your mouth, to recite the exact same duaa as the Rasool when you finish to pray and to enjoy the connection between you and your creator at the end of the night when you wake up and do a nafila for Him in a time where He promised to fulfill are your duaas.
The bind is when your break the sawn at noon with your family around the table in the holy month, when you say "assalaam aleikum" to every body, those you know and those you don't know because the prophet said to spread salaam, to say "may god bless you" to who sneezes. To immune your children with the duaa the prophet made for his grand children Hassan & Hussein etc...
The bind is when you consult your bank account at the end of the year and can't wait to give the zakkat to someone you know is in need.
I already posted my objections, the points you have against hadeeth are ridiculous and your little group didnt shake my belief for a second because I'm on the same path than the best of mankind ;Muhammad Rasool Allah. May God give you this sensation one day and take off the veil you have over the eyes.Now I have Salaat Al Isha, I'll BRB.
There are 12 people who bother about you. What do you want, a headcount?
All your binds are physical actions. I am sorry to say but you remind me of a kid who wants to make his daddy proud by scoring a lot of goals in football. Plus you mix christian, western and middle east cultures into how you interpret islam. Do you even know where term "God bless you" comes from???
Anyways, you didnt understand what I meant with "bind". My question was if you are so bothered about QA because we are able to bind without rituals, I mean we all have the same concept of the true path but some of us wear hijab, some not. Some of us pray 3 times, some 5. Some of us fast a month, some ten days etc. etc.And I am not talking about shaking your belief, why would I want to do that? What I would like to see (like Wakas) are 5 thoroughly thought through objections against following the Quran alone. I am sure you cannot find one because otherwise you would have taken the challenge. I asked you before but you didnt want to answer. Without arguing about how to interpret the Quran or to follow hadith or not, let's see a debate about why traditional islam is the only islam.
-
I have a huuuuuge comfort and feel so blessed and favoured to belong to the Truth.
How can I be bothered by 12 people who talk on the net, is that a real bind, yall don't even know yourselves in person.
You don't even imagine what are the true binds ; It is to pray shoulder to shoulder with your muslim brother, to have chills when the imam recites Quran. To feel your sins washed when you make ablution, to feel the honor to walk on the steps on the Prophet Muhammad PBUH when eating with your right hand, when you say Bism'illah before you put the food on your mouth, to recite the exact same duaa as the Rasool when you finish to pray and to enjoy the connection between you and your creator at the end of the night when you wake up and do a nafila for Him in a time where He promised to fulfill are your duaas.
The bind is when your break the sawn at noon with your family around the table in the holy month, when you say "assalaam aleikum" to every body, those you know and those you don't know because the prophet said to spread salaam, to say "may god bless you" to who sneezes. To immune your children with the duaa the prophet made for his grand children Hassan & Hussein etc...
The bind is when you consult your bank account at the end of the year and can't wait to give the zakkat to someone you know is in need.
I already posted my objections, the points you have against hadeeth are ridiculous and your little group didnt shake my belief for a second because I'm on the same path than the best of mankind ;Muhammad Rasool Allah. May God give you this sensation one day and take off the veil you have over the eyes.Just a quick note about this whole "binding" through rituals etc. Yes, I did feel that connection and binding with other traditional muslims when I was practicing the Sunnah. I know how you must have felt right now.
But guess what? Since I decided to walk Islam using the Qur'an alone as my guidance, I feel connected to everyone, all mankind and not just limited to a certain religious group. I've worked together with Christians, Jews, Yogis, Hindus and Buddhists as well as discuss belief systems with them peacefully. Yes, I myself have said salaam to them (as the Qur'an tells me to do) and it feels awesome to actually hear them say salaam/shalom back.
I feel blessed to be on this path, to serve God whom I actually love. The God who is just, merciful, and compassionate. And you know what? Never comes to me again, the moment where people from other belief system can tell me Islam is unjust or violent. Never comes to me again, the moment where I cry 'cause I cannot defend Islam in front of the others. Now I can, by using the Qur'an, tell and peacefully argue with the others that Islam is all about peace, justice and logic. And I can say with conviction, that I am on the right Path.
Anyway, you only consult your bank account at the end of the year? Not when you get your income (6141)? Poor people need help all day throughout the year, Brother!
Whatever. On to you your own way, onto me mine. So rather than wasting your precious time arguing with us the misguided group, why don't you do constructive things out there? Don't you have any better things to do?
-
Alhamdulillah... We are a little group group
1140
1140 So, when Our command came and the chamber erupted. We said Carry in it a pair of two from each, and your family; except those against whom the word has been issued; and whoever has believed. But those who believed with him were few.3413
3413 They made for him what he desired of enclosures, and images and pools of deep reservoirs, and heavy pots. O family of David, work to give thanks. Only a few of My servants are thankful.3824
3824 He said He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few. And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.5610
5611
5612
5613
5614
5610 And those foremost, who will be from those foremost?
5611 They will be the ones who are brought near.
5612 In gardens of bliss.
5613 Many from the first generations.
5614 And a few from the later generations.May Allah guide us all towards the Correct Path.
Mohammed M. KhanThat's what I've said, you really are convinced that you are that little group nope
So you mean the prophet Muhammad failed on delivering the message and on spreading it to the world ?
-
Salaam Badr;
I am a "Qur'an-alone" Muslim. This is because the Qur'an does not mandate ahadith as a source of Islam. You mentioned nice things such as returning greetings and reciting the Bismallah at specific times etc., but the fact is you can do these things without the ahadith. The Qur'an tells us to always remember God, and so we are not disobeying Allah (swt) if we remember Him before eating. You cite verses which only support our position. However, since it is not my concern (but your choice), I will simply ask you this
Do you accept any hadith as religious law (i.e. as an example according to you (according to Sunnis) do we have to perform ablution in the traditional way or are you simply recommending this based on your understanding or desire of Islam)? If you say it is obligatory, do you also uphold the death-penalty for apostasy and adultery, and do you claim that the Qur'an is not fully-detailed for our guidance?
Khuda hafiz
P.S. I think we need only go through the verses ayah by ayah to determine which is true orthodox Islam. I would gladly discuss this with you individually; Quantum1 has adequately addressed the pith of this thread.
-
That's what I've said, you really are convinced that you are that little group nope
No, but your majority group certainly aren't and these are the verses of Allah, the ONLY one that knows the future. These verses point out that when you mock us for being a small group and you feel joy to belong to the majority you are mocking Allah who clearly knew that there would be few, even in the future.So you mean the prophet Muhammad failed on delivering the message and on spreading it to the world ?
Why would it mean that? Did other prophets fail in delivering the message or did the receivers of that message look for more and adapt it to what they wanted because the message wasn't enough for them? The message is Quran, I think we can safely say that the entire world knows about Quran so the message has been delivered. In that message there are numerous warnings what the people did WITH the message and how it was changed ORALLY to adapt to what they wanted, their own agenda. The same has happened with Islam and if you think not then you are very nieve. The message has not changed, it is still there in the original Arabic form, but there are now ORAL additions that for the majority outweigh the message itself because we have been told the message cannot be understood without these ORAL additions. To you Islam is Quran and sunnah, to Allah Islam is the message He has been sending since day one and is contained in HIS books, not Bukhari or Muslim.
-
There are 12 people who bother about you. What do you want, a headcount?
;D
All your binds are physical actions. I am sorry to say but you remind me of a kid who wants to make his daddy proud by scoring a lot of goals in football. Plus you mix christian, western and middle east cultures into how you interpret islam. Do you even know where term "God bless you" comes from???
Of course I know, once the soul was insufflated into Adam and reached his noze, he sneezed and angels told him "god bless you".
Anyways, you didnt understand what I meant with "bind". My question was if you are so bothered about QA because we are able to bind without rituals, I mean we all have the same concept of the true path but some of us wear hijab, some not. Some of us pray 3 times, some 5. Some of us fast a month, some ten days etc. etc.
But do you not realise that islam has already one word and you are spreading confusion ? I mean not you, you can only be influenced by others (those who rule the site), you did more than half the path by embracing islam and then you leave the sunna because some people told you so and conforted you in your status of quran-aloners. If you don't pray accordingly to what god wanted, do you think your prayers will be accepted ?
You abandon the sunna because you are afraid to be judged by your friend and family while you must stand firm and defend it, you cant escape from rules like cuttin the hand of the thief, it is stated black on white, it is another way of thinking, another dimension, you can't compare with your european way of life, of course it is in contradiction with it. Didnt Musa asked his people who gone astray (golden cow) to kill each others to be forgotten, what if islam stated that ? you wont accept it at all ?
And I am not talking about shaking your belief, why would I want to do that? What I would like to see (like Wakas) are 5 thoroughly thought through objections against following the Quran alone. I am sure you cannot find one because otherwise you would have taken the challenge. I asked you before but you didnt want to answer. Without arguing about how to interpret the Quran or to follow hadith or not, let's see a debate about why traditional islam is the only islam.
Look, I already posted about 150 message in 4 days I already posted all my objections, why do you want me to get back at it again and summerize for you ? read my posts and you'll know what I don't agree with.
-
Peace "Badr",
If you don't pray accordingly to what god wanted, do you think your prayers will be accepted ?
JK- We beleive that apart from the limitations and instructions God has stated in the Quran, we are free to pray as we like and God will accept it all based on our intentions because as I said GOD did not order any rigid way of salat as portrayed in hadith. BUT even if He did I told you a 1000 times we can always ask for more detail like how fast one has to bow or with how much acceleration got lost and God specified that too? See how ridiculous that is? GOD ofcourse knows all of this and so He didn't make it rigid like the snnis/shia want us to believe. IMU the rituals like you perform them come from satan NEVER GOD.
You abandon the sunna because you are afraid to be judged by your friend and family while you must stand firm and defend it,
JK- The OPPOSITE was true for me. Abandoning the sunna almost cost me MY LIFE when I was back in Pakistan and even whilst I came to Germany because I was labelled an apostate. MANY other Quran Alone muslims have gone through similar experiences.
you cant escape from rules like cuttin the hand of the thief, it is stated black on white,
JK- No it is NOT in black and white, INFACT NOTHING is and unless you give up this thinking you'll never understand the real world. NOW many articles and posts have been written to explain the relvant verse. I personally say that yes whilst it states to cut(NOT cut off) it explains in another verse what type of cutting that is NAMELY when the women staring at Yusuf CUT their hands.
it is another way of thinking, another dimension, you can't compare with your european way of life, of course it is in contradiction with it. Didnt Musa asked his people who gone astray (golden cow) to kill each others to be forgotten, what if islam stated that ? you wont accept it at all ?
JK- Again that verse with Musa or rather God through Musa asking people to go kill themslves is not necessarily literal. It can mean to "kill your egos(qatalu biNAFSIKUM)." where "nafs" is ther "self/ego". Shows again how little you've looked into these verses with reason and logic just following blindly the interpretations of your "scholars". GOD Bless!
-
Badr must show us a hadith that tells us how to pray in complete form and then he must explain why Muhammad (SAW) is invoked in second-person during Sunni-prayer. He must explain why 2 out of 5 daily Sunni-prayers are silent when the Qur'an states that they are to be moderate and he must explain where the rakat-counts come from and ritualistic recitations which defy the purpose of salat (17110-111). Why does Allah (swt) tell Muhammad (SAW) to recite as many ayat as is easy and how can we not pray similarly when the order of standing, bowing and prostrating is defined quite clearly?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHn2WmzEHk&feature=related
Khuda hafiz
-
Peace "Badr",
JK- We beleive that apart from the limitations and instructions God has stated in the Quran, we are free to pray as we like and God will accept it all based on our intentions because as I said GOD did not order any rigid way of salat as portrayed in hadith. BUT even if He did I told you a 1000 times we can always ask for more detail like how fast one has to bow or with how much acceleration got lost and God specified that too? See how ridiculous that is? GOD ofcourse knows all of this and so He didn't make it rigid like the snnis/shia want us to believe. IMU the rituals like you perform them come from satan NEVER GOD.
DO WHAT THY WILT
JK- The OPPOSITE was true for me. Abandoning the sunna almost cost me MY LIFE when I was back in Pakistan and even whilst I came to Germany because I was labelled an apostate. MANY other Quran Alone muslims have gone through similar experiences.
It was not directed to you, I was talking to Emil, you may have a different experience.
JK- No it is NOT in black and white, INFACT NOTHING is and unless you give up this thinking you'll never understand the real world. NOW many articles and posts have been written to explain the relvant verse. I personally say that yes whilst it states to cut(NOT cut off) it explains in another verse what type of cutting that is NAMELY when the women staring at Yusuf CUT their hands.
Both cut off their hands literaly, learn arabic and don't try to twist the meaning by adding your own desire to the recipe.
JK- Again that verse with Musa or rather God through Musa asking people to go kill themslves is not necessarily literal. It can mean to "kill your egos(qatalu biNAFSIKUM)." where "nafs" is ther "self/ego". Shows again how little you've looked into these verses with reason and logic just following blindly the interpretations of your "scholars". GOD Bless!
Nafs = self or soul, in both cases it means kill yourselves. Again, a twisted interpretation of a clear verse.
"reason and logic" means your own desire over the word of god.
-
Badr must show us a hadith that tells us how to pray in complete form and then he must explain why Muhammad (SAW) is invoked in second-person during Sunni-prayer. He must explain why 2 out of 5 daily Sunni-prayers are silent when the Qur'an states that they are to be moderate and he must explain where the rakat-counts come from and ritualistic recitations which defy the purpose of salat (17110-111). Why does Allah (swt) tell Muhammad (SAW) to recite as many ayat as is easy and how can we not pray similarly when the order of standing, bowing and prostrating is defined quite clearly?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHn2WmzEHk&feature=related
Khuda hafiz
You are contradiction your fellow quran-aloners by saying
1-salaat is an act instead of "contact" like they say.
2-by telling that there's Ruku/bowing while they say otherwise.
You better have a unique word so I can answer your questions once and for all even I already opened a thread about salat as Muhammad use to do it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601759.0So in the end, salaat is a act or not, is there a bowing thing or not ?
-
Peace "Badr",
DO WHAT THY WILT
JK- Even as a sunni whatever is not restricted it is open to do. For example i can bow however fast I want or stay in the bowing position for as long as i want. Although wahabis claim "rafai yadain(raising of both hands)" is necessary after every ruku and sajda other sunnis don't so for the latter it is a choice. WHAT Quran Alone muslims say is that GOD has given us EVEN MORE FREEDOM than the hadith which is much better in our understanding.
It was not directed to you, I was talking to Emil, you may have a different experience.
JK Do you know Emil's story?
Both cut off their hands literaly, learn arabic and don't try to twist the meaning by adding your own desire to the recipe.
JK- The women cut off their hands entirely after seeing Joseph? Common don't be ridiculous. Be realistic and imagine some people peeling apples with a knife. Then something shocks them, would they just hurt their hands such that they bleed or cut their entire hand off? The verse does NOT say "qt' yad tamaama" which would then clearly mean "cut the entire hand".
Nafs = self or soul, in both cases it means kill yourselves. Again, a twisted interpretation of a clear verse.
JK- "Kill yourself" can also imply "kill your ego", not necessarily a physical kill. There are many Arabic speakers here on this forum and they agree.
"reason and logic" means your own desire over the word of god.
JK- No it means understanding what GOD wants independent of GROUP BIAS like the "scholars" you follow. You on the other hand are following the "scholar" desires, directly or indirectly. The trick is that they tell you it is God and His Prophet telling you this WHILST IT IS ACTUALLY THEM making it up. HOWVER if you did an independent study using reason and logic you could come closer to what GOD is actually is saying. GOD Bless!