Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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You are contradiction your fellow quran-aloners
Badr, first you have to get out of the mind of 'group mentality' to even get to start to understand.
This forum is called Free Minds for a good reason and there is no one saying 'this is how this is' or 'this is what you have to think and follow', I can understand how hard that must be for you to grasp the concept of.
Many people have posted articles and studies, it doesn't mean we all agree with them or follow them, as I said before we share ideas and thoughts and findings. One persons view may not be the same as the next but will be discussed to find the logic and reasoning used to come to that conclusion.
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Salaam Badr;
Do you accept any hadith as religious law (i.e. as an example according to you (according to Sunnis) do we have to perform ablution in the traditional way or are you simply recommending this based on your understanding or desire of Islam)?
1-when the hadeeth is an order or a prohibition, I accept it as religious law (after verification of the authenticity and what the scholars says about it and his applicability in nowerdays' life).
example the prohibition of Alcohol, it is stated in the quran and the prophet also forbid to drink, and it sounds right to me as we all know the effect of the alcohol. In this case I apply.
The salaat in the mosque ; it is stated in quran, the prophet said that men must pray in mosques and it also sounds right to me as I realise that the goal of islam is to achieve the community unification so I follow.
It can be not applied if someone lives in a country where they harm musallin or when the community is corrupted ; example a sunni can pray at house in Iran.
2-when it is a story about the prophet or an explanation of what he did and how he did it, I try to follow his steps as much as I can. As most of the hadeeths are stories about the rasool and the way he does things. And these acts are rewarded when made but not punished when left.
Example enter a house with the right foot. I try to do it when I remember it.
If you say it is obligatory, do you also uphold the death-penalty for apostasy and adultery, and do you claim that the Qur'an is not fully-detailed for our guidance?
When under the proper islamic government that rules over all muslims wich is not available today and if the rules of 4 witnesses for the adultery (wich never happened during the time of the prophet, the people who have been stoned to death -and I know only 2 stories- came to the prophet and denounced themselves and insisted to be judged accordingly to the shariaa while the prophet turned his head many time and ignored it first) and time to repent for the apostate, I uphold it.
But I am aware that nowerdays and in the actual situation this can not be fair because there could be alot of exceeds, and as it is for the ruler of the muslims -wich is supposed to be a fair judge and the best amongst muslims (assigned with Shura)- to decide while this person is missing today it is not possible to apply this shariia.
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Badr, first you have to get out of the mind of 'group mentality' to even get to start to understand.
This forum is called Free Minds for a good reason and there is no one saying 'this is how this is' or 'this is what you have to think and follow', I can understand how hard that must be for you to grasp the concept of.
Many people have posted articles and studies, it doesn't mean we all agree with them or follow them, as I said before we share ideas and thoughts and findings. One persons view may not be the same as the next but will be discussed to find the logic and reasoning used to come to that conclusion.
But this takes off all credibility to your theory as islam is a unique path (when it comes to worship at least the religion for god is islam). Yall can't do as you wish.
PS see how you can be nice and reasonable !?
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But this takes off all credibility to your theory as islam is a unique path (when it comes to worship at least the religion for god is islam). Yall can't do as you wish.
Yes the religion for God is Islam and I asked you previously what IS Islam, you didn't answer. Really with looking at Quran, the words of GOD, how do you assume we are NOT following the Islam from God? How can you think that by studying His words we are far from Islam while you are following something else and think you may be on the right path?
PS see how you can be nice and reasonable !?
Yes I can angel
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Peace "Badr",
Killing an apostate requires four witnesses? Also how would you react to a brother in faith of yours killing someone, by himself, because by both his and your definition that someone has gone out of the fold of what you understand is islam e.g. becomes Ahmadi or starts beleiving in messengers after Muhammad? GOD Bless!
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When under the proper islamic government that rules over all muslims wich is not available today and if the rules of 4 witnesses for the adultery (wich never happened during the time of the prophet, the people who have been stoned to death -and I know only 2 stories- came to the prophet and denounced themselves and insisted to be judged accordingly to the shariaa while the prophet turned his head many time and ignored it first)
God says lashing for adultery and you say stoning. ???
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Even as a sunni whatever is not restricted it is open to do. For example i can bow however fast I want or stay in the bowing position for as long as i want. Although wahabis claim "rafai yadain(raising of both hands)" is necessary after every ruku and sajda other sunnis don't so for the latter it is a choice. WHAT Quran Alone muslims say is that GOD has given us EVEN MORE FREEDOM than the hadith which is much better in our understanding.
EVEN MORE FREEDOM ??? luchy you ! so do what thy wilt.
salaat requires "tuma'anina" -according to the prophet- wich is tranquility so it is easy to find the right speed. Raising both hands or not is a smaaall detail, once you respect the number of rakaa and sajda and say what theres to say your salaat is correct anyway.
It is also permitted to speed salaat (when you pray at house or the imam can do) when theres a adanger or in case of a baby/child crying for you (whether you are his father, mother, uncle, baby sitter, grand parent etc...) or something from that type.
JK Do you know Emil's story?
Do you ? ;D
JK- The women cut off their hands entirely after seeing Joseph? Common don't be ridiculous. Be realistic and imagine some people peeling apples with a knife. Then something shocks them, would they just hurt their hands such that they bleed or cut their entire hand off? The verse does NOT say "qt' yad tamaama" which would then clearly mean "cut the entire hand".
They saw a man with a beauty that been never and will be never seen-half of the beauty given to humanity was given to Yusuf- so I can understand they cut their hands, maybe not entirely, maybe only the fingers, maybe some of them only opened their hands up, it still the same.
JK- "Kill yourself" can also imply "kill your ego", not necessarily a physical kill. There are many Arabic speakers here on this forum and they agree.
Once you're in that trip you can agree with every thing. Theres no doubt about the "kill yourself" of the verse you are just wanting to understand it otherwise because it seems hardcore to your little heart that God asks people to kill themselves to be forgiven. But real life aint a Barbie world like you seem/like to think it.
K- No it means understanding what GOD wants independent of GROUP BIAS like the "scholars" you follow. You on the other hand are following the "scholar" desires, directly or indirectly. The trick is that they tell you it is God and His Prophet telling you this WHILST IT IS ACTUALLY THEM making it up. HOWVER if you did an independent study using reason and logic you could come closer to what GOD is actually is saying. GOD Bless!
I did, I have a mind, I used it, I saw both sides of the coin and made my mind with all conviction and sincerity with God and with myself. I don't try to make things suit me I acclimate myself with things (when it comes to religion of course). I dont try to interpret the verses differently than what they really are. I make my mind even when it is about what the scholars say I don't swallow it blindly.
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Peace again "Badr",
And btw there is an "Islamic" government in SAudi Arabia as well as in Afghanistan under the Taliban. You just don't agree with their version, though they are sunnis and also follow hadith and sunnah. GOD Bless!
They rule over a small part of muslim, they did not have been elected by shura wich is the normal way to elect.
Saudi Arabia is a big fraud when it comes to the government ; it is a monarchy, they stole the throne.
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Peace "Badr",
EVEN MORE FREEDOM ??? luchy you ! so do what thy wilt.
salaat requires "tuma'anina" -according to the prophet- wich is tranquility so it is easy to find the right speed. Raising both hands or not is a smaaall detail, once you respect the number of rakaa and sajda and say what theres to say your salaat is correct anyway.
It is also permitted to speed salaat (when you pray at house or the imam can do) when theres a adanger or in case of a baby/child crying for you (whether you are his father, mother, uncle, baby sitter, grand parent etc...) or something from that type.JK- See now you're deciding what is small and what is not and as to what is tranquility, everyone can decide that for him/herself anyway. All people don't find tranquility at the same speed so this is open. Again we as Quran Alone Muslims don't agree that God ordered such a rigid manner of salat as defined in hadith but even more open. That's all there is to it.
Do you ? ;D
JK- I was not the one making assumptions about him. YOU on the other hand said that he abandoned the sunna because he is afraid to be judged by friends and family.
They saw a man with a beauty that been never and will be never seen-half of the beauty given to humanity was given to Yusuf- so I can understand they cut their hands, maybe not entirely, maybe only the fingers, maybe some of them only opened their hands up, it still the same.
JK- THAT is exactly the points the "cut" leaves ROOM i.e. it does not necessarily imply the entire hand and as such we can divide thiefs into categories i.e. he steals more more cut and add more complex variables instead of just one dollar cent above the min allowed according to gold standard set in hadith and the whole hand goes off, one below that and he/shes safe.
Once you're in that trip you can agree with every thing. Theres no doubt about the "kill yourself" of the verse you are just wanting to understand it otherwise because it seems hardcore to your little heart that God asks people to kill themselves to be forgiven. But real life aint a Barbie world like you seem/like to think it.
JK- Your "scholars" also differ on the interpretations of verses in the Quran so don't give me this. e.g. "said-ul-bahr" some interpret as "game of the see" saying GOD allows all that is in water whilst others say "fish of the sea" and hence only fish are allowed. AND yes I do think it makes no sense that GOD would say such and in my and many others undertstandings of that verse He didn't.
I did, I have a mind, I used it, I saw both sides of the coin and made my mind with all conviction and sincerity with God and with myself. I don't try to make things suit me I acclimate myself with things (when it comes to religion of course). I dont try to interpret the verses differently than what they really are. I make my mind even when it is about what the scholars say I don't swallow it blindly.
JK- Verses do NOT STAND ON THEIR OWN. INTERPRETATION IS ALWAYS required. That's a fact of any language. Your dishonest if you don't admit that. You have made up your mind mostly with what your sunni "scholars" interpret for you. We too have made up our mind and are confident until we acquire new evidence again via independent investiagtion as wel always try to do in order to elininate any group bias. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
Killing an apostate requires four witnesses?
Adultery requires four witnesses.
An apostate must embrace islam then revert and fight against muslim or become a threat to the whole community.
Also how would you react to a brother in faith of yours killing someone, by himself, because by both his and your definition that someone has gone out of the fold of what you understand is islam e.g. becomes Ahmadi or starts beleiving in messengers after Muhammad? GOD Bless!
It is totally forbidden in islam, one can't act by himself and be the judge and the executioner.
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You are contradiction your fellow quran-aloners by saying
1-salaat is an act instead of "contact" like they say.
2-by telling that there's Ruku/bowing while they say otherwise.
You better have a unique word so I can answer your questions once and for all even I already opened a thread about salat as Muhammad use to do it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601759.0So in the end, salaat is a act or not, is there a bowing thing or not ?
It is an act.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/salat_positions_(P119.html
We know that the ruku is a part of it since 2226 mentions it
"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration."
Qur'an 2226
We know that it refers to prayer since the alternative PRAYER (salaat) is presented in 835
"And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved."
I am not contradicting a logical conclusion.
Khuda hafiz
P.S. Your description of salaat in the other thread is pieced together from many sources. I specified one hadith, and there are different versions of Muhammad's (SAW) prayer. Plus yours contradicts the Qur'an.
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;D
Of course I know, once the soul was insufflated into Adam and reached his noze, he sneezed and angels told him "god bless you".
Wrong, check your sources.
You abandon the sunna because you are afraid to be judged by your friend and family while you must stand firm and defend it, you cant escape from rules like cuttin the hand of the thief, it is stated black on white, it is another way of thinking, another dimension, you can't compare with your european way of life, of course it is in contradiction with it. Didnt Musa asked his people who gone astray (golden cow) to kill each others to be forgotten, what if islam stated that ? you wont accept it at all ?
Are you talking about me personally or us QA? I never abandoned the sunna if you are referring to Muhammed's sunna, I follow the sunna of Allah so how can I abandon something that I never followed? And my family is sunni, fyi. And surprise surprise they accept me...They have seen that following the Quran is the thing that counts in the end. The reason why they stick to sunni is because they since childhood have done all the rituals and they feel uncomfortable breaking the habit.
And for cutting the hands off thieves, not everything is literal, my friend. There is a reason behind why Allah used these words. If you would read the Quran without hadith you would be able to see it too.Look, I already posted about 150 message in 4 days I already posted all my objections, why do you want me to get back at it again and summerize for you ? read my posts and you'll know what I don't agree with.
Look, you don't understand what I mean. Hadith this and Obey the Messenger that is not sound objections because they can be refuted. I will give you an example of a sound objection, ok?
Following ortodox islam, has it ever occurred that a person or group of persons have interpreted the Sunnah to include killing innocent people?
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Peace "Badr"
Adultery requires four witnesses.
JK- I know that but apostasy was touched upon too.
An apostate must embrace islam then revert and fight against muslim or become a threat to the whole community.
JK- Ok say someone becomes an apostate, does not physically fight against anyone, BUT he criticizes the system of what you understand as "Islam", points out flaws in it and propagates his new system/solutions to the "Muslim" community by writing articles and or appearing in the media.
It is totally forbidden in islam, one can't act by himself and be the judge and the executioner.
JK- SO what would you do in an "islamic state", if available, if such a person killed an apostate, who also did the above, where both you and he agreed that he really is? ALSO show me a hadith which says this is totally forbidden. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- See now you're deciding what is small and what is not and as to what is tranquility, everyone can decide that for him/herself anyway. All people don't find tranquility at the same speed so this is open. Again we as Quran Alone Muslims don't agree that God ordered such a rigid manner of salat as defined in hadith but even more open. That's all there is to it.
It is open in a limit not totally interchangeable.
JK- I was not the one making assumptions about him. YOU on the other hand said that he abandoned the sunna because he is afraid to be judged by friends and family.
He said it, rewind the discussion and check his posts. You're always assuming that I'm dishonest.
JK- THAT is exactly the points the "cut" leaves ROOM i.e. it does not necessarily imply the entire hand and as such we can divide thiefs into categories i.e. he steals more more cut and add more complex variables instead of just one dollar cent above the min allowed according to gold standard set in hadith and the whole hand goes off, one below that and he/shes safe.
Of course because if you see the whole picture alot of women and to cut their hands by themselves, ones can be more concentrated than others etc...
But the other verse is a rule wich is cristal clear O you belivers, the thief and the thiefess/female thief, cut off their hands !!!!! couldnt be more clear.
JK- Your "scholars" also differ on the interpretations of verses in the Quran so don't give me this. e.g. "said-ul-bahr" some interpret as "game of the see" saying GOD allows all that is in water whilst others say "fish of the sea" and hence only fish are allowed. AND yes I do think it makes no sense that GOD would say such and in my and many others undertstandings of that verse He didn't.
What's said-ul-bahr ??? in arabic ?
JK- Verses do NOT STAND ON THEIR OWN. INTERPRETATION IS ALWAYS required. That's a fact of any language. Your dishonest if you don't admit that. You have made up your mind mostly with what your sunni "scholars" interpret for you. We too have made up our mind and are confident until we acquire new evidence again via independent investiagtion as wel always try to do in order to elininate any group bias. GOD Bless!
independant investigation ? nope
What 3103 means to you ?
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It is an act.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/salat_positions_(P119.html
We know that the ruku is a part of it since 2226 mentions it
"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration."
Qur'an 2226
We know that it refers to prayer since the alternative PRAYER (salaat) is presented in 835
"And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved."
I am not contradicting a logical conclusion.
Khuda hafiz
Most people here says no.
P.S. Your description of salaat in the other thread is pieced together from many sources. I specified one hadith, and there are different versions of Muhammad's (SAW) prayer.
theres no single hadith, the prophet says "pray as you see me praying" and people reported how they saw him praying, yall assume here they wele ALL wrong, they couldnt see well or I dunno what. Maybe they are all amnesics.