Masturbation
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You've fallen short on a few key points in justifying your position.
Well I stopped trusting people when they talk heroically.
- Your concept of lewdness is not quranic, thus you've fallen short of proving masturbation is lewd.
Oh well I hope my post before my last helps you to understand.
- You have decided for yourself that pleasuring yourself is animalistic with no evidence from quran. Your quoting of 47/12 was irrelevant because it doesn't even come close to what you think it says.
Really? Even if I accepted that, the ayah ALSO mentions sin and fornication is a sin thus thinking about it is thinking about a sin which makes you want to do it and obtain the same satisfaction from thought and action that you would otherwise get from fornication... If you are a good Muslim you will distract yourself from such thoughts besides. Therefore Masturbation is inadvisable. However you provide no support to prove that 4712 does not mean what it declares (predictable).
And finally, you have taken it upon yourself to dictate to mankind what is beneficial for being a muslim and what isn't.
True, using the Qur?an. Do you have a problem?
It's worth pointing out that fahisha, which some people commonly translate as 'lewdness' is better understood as 'immorality' or 'injustice'. Fahisha is directly contrasted with qisti (justice) in 7/29.
But the contrast does not exist. How can you declare that they are contrasted when they are different words in different ayat? That is just your contrast, not Allah?s (SWT).
Just look
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=fH$#(7335)
So your attempt at corruption is short.
The point regarding disrespecting women/men you fantasise about is farcical, as far as I'm concerned. It matters not one iota to me if a woman sits in the privacy of her room and fantasises about me. Nor do I have any right to be disrespected by what goes on in the minds of other people.
It is whether you disrespect them in Allah?s (SWT) mandate, not whether the other person knows or cares. You are a fool and I have talked to many just like you.
'Farjaha' of 24/30 isn't literally to guard your penis. As pointed out already, you can't guard yourself from yourself, nor should you try. The verse itself is metaphorical, given that it begins with 'lower your gaze'. No one takes that to mean literally look downwards.
The first part of the ayah applies to your reasoning, so the second part therefore probably would not agree! Lower gaze (guard your modesty, avoid lewdness and avoid temptation (not just in eyesight, as you admit but for the wrong phrase)). Just guard your chastity/private parts from sexual acts (since the metaphor was already used before the part which you applied it to).
The point of "exposing yourself to baser instincts" is also a poor argument given that there is nothing immoral in satiating a base instinct. To suggest this is somehow immoral is misguided. Can you prove that satisfying a base desire is bad?
But you are misguided. See the next point
"All pleasures at the expense of remembering Allah (SWT) and His way are inclinations away from Islam (see 4712)"
47/12 says nothing of the sort. It says believers will be rewarded and then gives you the characteristic of a disbeliever. Where are the words that suggest "all pleasures at the expense of remembering Allah" are an inclination away from Islam?
So does everyone agree that the devil would agree with him? He implies that we can enjoy ourselves as much as we want without thinking about Allah (SWT). He would say that we can masturbate freely for pleasure without even asking for forgiveness.
The final point regarding being a better muslim as a result of it... that's for the individual to decide. A regular release may help a person concentrate during the day. Perhaps it helps release stress, which would otherwise build up and have a detrimental effect on other parts of a person's life. Perhaps a regular release makes that person happy. These are good enough reasons to do it, as far as I'm concerned. If it does nothing for you, don't do it.
Or you could pray, study the Qur?an and focus on other thoughts. After all, it is the devil who enjoins immorality and the forgetting of Allah (SWT) (2268 and 2421).
Thank you for an empty and yet amusing post.
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Here's some advice A piece of weak evidence is weak regardless of how many times it's multiplied. Adding multiple weak pieces of evidence together does not a strong case make. At the end of the day, you still have a weak case. You consistently fail to grasp this fact.
Well I will accept that for just enough time for me to say that you have no case at all. Who do you think is always going to win (even if (assuming again for a second you are correct) principally)?
Assuming this pertains to masturbation.
It refers to chastity which refers to private parts.
That and your previous point easily cleared by reading my ?article?.
Would you remember God while ejaculating into your wife? Answer Yes or No. Then answer how that would substantively be different than remembering God while masturbating.
You are a fool. Notice that I have always maintained it may be OK to think about one?s wife (during masturbation). However, ideally sexual pleasure is mutual pleasure and in Allah?s (SWT) mandate it may be more respectful for sex (certainly) and sexual fantasies to remain mutual. This is one reason why Allah (SWT) actually said that sex with one?s wife was permissible!
Relevant quote from that verse, I presume, is "eating as the livestock eat"
So you're taking that small phrase, and broadly equating it to acting like an animal. Then implying that acting like an animal in any way is bad. Then implying that masturbating is acting like an animal. 3 assumptions, one on top of the other. All based on....."eating as the livestock eat."
"Logical" alright.
Well actually the relevant quote is ?enjoy themselves AND eat?? So acting like an animal in a sexual way is OK for you but not when it comes to food. Logical, true. The fact is I only need to prove that it is inadvisable (more inadvisable than not) to prove my entire argument throughout this thread.
I want to be offended but this is such a lame insult all I can do is giggle.
It was meant to be effective, not humorous. It is quite an apt description.
If you could have it your way, you'd "force." Under your "unity of Islam" banner. You are no different from any extremist group who condemns anyone who dares veer from the party line. You don't "discuss" anything. You attempt to steamroll everyone with your own personal views, sprinkling tangentially-related verses here and there that do not prove what you think they do.
Now what did I say to you about huff and puff? It is not good for you. You have no case, but I [i[do have a case. You say my case is bad, but you still have no case!
You and others who are arguing with me keep saying that it is not inadvisable to act like an animal, so who is playing with fire?
This business of legislating morality based on the flimsiest of evidence. Very dangerous.
A Muslim believes the Qur?an is actually the truth, not flimsy evidence. Sad that I have not legislated anything but my understanding (which you cannot answer). Saying that having an opinion on the Qur?an is dangerous sums up your wit.
Simply repeating the words "obvious" and "logically" over and over again doesn't make it so.
For someone who is so against masturbation, you seem to have no problem waving your dick around. It's pathetic and unbecoming.
Some odd logic. If a person knows or understands something, that person will be more involved in the discussion. Why don?t you start a ?pro-masturbation? sect since your presence here is unnecessary if that is not your intention. I have an understanding and the person on this thread who originally disagreed with me now apparently agrees. My advice is to not masturbate unless you absolutely have to, and because there is no strict limit to that or to temptation, we should ask forgiveness if we ever do it (if you have a problem, provide some evidence to justify or be gone with your inadequacy).
However you would prefer to wave it around more often. Please define how many times per second/minute/hour/week and justify using the Qur?an.
Thanks,
Peace. -
Salaam;
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard .?
22
We should guard ourselves and our thoughts.
??and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed.?
6151
We should not even think about these things because impure thoughts (though concealed) lead to impure impulses. If then we fall to temptation, we should ask forgiveness. Just because our thoughts and associated actions are concealed, it does not mean we are not accountable for intentions
??and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it.?
2284
?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed??
733
See the notes for 6151.
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Thinking about fornication in conjunction with the act is inclining towards it. Enjoying the act is welcoming the lure of the same (fulfilment of) temptations which fornication offers.
?And who guard their private parts??
235
Performing it is not keeping chaste or abstaining from sexual acts. However 235 is permitted with regards to spouses and ma malakat aymanukum (though performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse is not excepted (see 237) If masturbation were permissible, it would have been included here).
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Thus even if we feel absolutely compelled (i.e. ?justified?), we should ask forgiveness from Allah (SWT). The fact that we should seek forgiveness obviously means the act is inadvisable (un-Islamic).
?Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.?
2430
Impure thoughts naturally invite to impure impulses. In this context, thinking of anyone but one?s spouse (as far as my understanding goes) is not guarding one?s inner modesty as a servant of Allah (SWT). It should be noted that 235 does not give an exception for performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse (hence it is completely haram in traditional schools).
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace.?
2433
There is no link here between marriage and nikah, and because chastity is demanded except before spouses and ma malakat aymanukum, anything outside of this is prohibited or inadvisable. The act is not simply an act; it is a thought, a compulsion with the thought, an intention and an action that could have been prevented by distracting oneself (e.g. guarding and remembering Allah (SWT)).
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.?
4712
Giving in to temptation is the way of disbelief. Thus one should guard one?s thoughts (22).
?So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord. And those who shun the great sins, and the indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive.?
4236-37
These ayat say that remembering Allah (SWT) is more beneficial than giving in to temptation. It is advisable to avoid the act because this is in accordance of the ideals of true Muslims. Allowing oneself to think about indecencies is not shunning them. We are only human, but that is partly why we must remember Him standing, sitting and lying (3191). It gives us the greatest chance to develop ourselves.
?Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.?
9017
Muslims should tell each other to be patient (e.g. against temptation unlike in this forum). See also Sura 103.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and therefore you should not do it. There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
Peace Mesmorial
I am not sure you have understood my earlier post.
I am in agreement that thoughts of a sexual nature about strangers is wrong BUT if masturbation happens without sexual thought and orgasm is acheieved then what you have isOrgasm (sexual pleasure) without thinking sexual thoughts. How is this even coming near lewdness? Which part is wrong or in contradiction to the Quran to you?
- The orgasm? Or 2) The act of playing with the genital purposefully?
If would not be fair to say that masturbating would then lead to wanting more and more thus leading you to lewdness. It is not a clear link. If you have experienced that the act leads to worser things (I am not saying this is the case as from what your posts imply you have never committed the act) then you have a point. But your point only applies to you. It may be that someone else has been given the nature of being able to masturbate 5 times a day without being tempted into going on porn or something like that.
You have not specifically labled anything haram or halal as you say. But to say it is inadvisable would still need some verses or reasons to back it up with. Could any of your quoted verses be applied to 1) and 2) such that it makes them inadvisable?
I can say it is inadvisable to not do good deeds. I would say this only because i beleive that good deeds are good for someone thus it is inadvisable not to do good deeds for they are not doing good for themselves. But i can't apply this to masturbation. I can't say it is better to not masturbate for i have nothing to back this up with. In the case of good deeds i do have something to back it up with (verses advising us to do good deeds)
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Peace nimnimak_11
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
"Say The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful."
5100
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
Peace.
P.S. It should be clarified that obviously not the doing will lead to it more often, but the allowing of oneself (which is what I meant by standards before).
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Really? Even if I accepted that, the ayah ALSO mentions sin
Does it? Where?
and fornication is a sin
Irrelevant.
thus thinking about it is thinking about a sin
Irrelevant.
which makes you want to do it
Do what? The sin? Simply projecting your own opinions onto everyone as fact.
and obtain the same satisfaction from thought and action that you would otherwise get from fornication...
But it's not fornication. What if the fantasy is not of fornication, but of marriage? What if your fantasy is that Beyonce is your wife? That would mean you're actually thinking of something completely halal.
If you are a good Muslim you will distract yourself from such thoughts besides. Therefore Masturbation is inadvisable.
But nothing from quran to back this up. A good muslim enjoys the good things of this life.
However you provide no support to prove that 4712 does not mean what it declares (predictable).
No, it means what it declares. It just doesn't mean what you declare.
True, using the Qur?an. Do you have a problem?
False. That is the problem.
But the contrast does not exist. How can you declare that they are contrasted when they are different words in different ayat? That is just your contrast, not Allah?s (SWT).
Of course they are different words, that's the whole point. If they were the same word then there wouldn't be a contrast. Fahisha is contrasted with qisti.
So your attempt at corruption is short.
Your attempt at a refutation was even shorter. Funnily, the site you linked translates fahisha in 7/28 as immorality.
It is whether you disrespect them in Allah?s (SWT) mandate, not whether the other person knows or cares. You are a fool and I have talked to many just like you.
You're yet to show the quranic ayah that suggests thinking about someone is disrespecting them in Allah's mandate.
Lower gaze (guard your modesty, avoid lewdness and avoid temptation (not just in eyesight, as you admit but for the wrong phrase)). Just guard your chastity/private parts from sexual acts (since the metaphor was already used before the part which you applied it to).
So you're admitting that guarding your farjaha doesn't mean to literally guard your penis. So why is masturbation a violation of such guarding? The problem is you're projecting something onto the verse that isn't there. The guarding is metaphorical (obviously) otherwise you couldn't have sex with your wife. So you're not meant to guard your penis from your wife. Why then would you need to guard your penis from your own hand?
He implies that we can enjoy ourselves as much as we want without thinking about Allah (SWT).
Is that what I implied? You claimed that 47/12 says satiating a base desire is an inclination away from Islam. It does not say this. Why is it animalistic to satiate a base desire? Please provide quranic proof. Hint 47/12 does not say this.
He would say that we can masturbate freely for pleasure without even asking for forgiveness.
Yes, that is what I am saying. Why should you ask for forgiveness if it is not forbidden? Should one seek forgiveness if your wife masturbates you freely for your pleasure? Why does it then require forgiveness when it is your hand doing it? When did your hand become something to be ashamed and guilty of?
Or you could pray, study the Qur?an and focus on other thoughts.
Does the 'or' imply you've conceded it is a choice that people can make without feeling guilty? People can focus on several things in their lives. You're entire argument is that it is 'inadvisable' yet can't show where this advice originated from using quran.
After all, it is the devil who enjoins immorality
Indeed. Can you show masturbation is immoral? You've failed so far.
and the forgetting of Allah (SWT) (2268 and 2421).
Yea, kind of like how you forget your Lord when you ejaculate into your wife.
Thank you for an empty and yet amusing post.
The irony!
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Peace nimnimak_11
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
"Say The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful."
5100
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
Peace.
P.S. It should be clarified that obviously not the doing will lead to it more often, but the allowing of oneself (which is what I meant by standards before).
Peace Mesmorial
Is there pleasure in masturbation whilst shutting down your own mind? You might find yourself thinking the thoughts unintentionally more and more often (which is a sign you might need to do it), especially if surrounded by things
Yes the outcome (orgasm) is pleasure which can happen whilst you restrain your sight and mind. I can say this from experience. Some may find themselves thinking unintentionally more and more whilst others may not. Those who do, it may be that that is the right time for them to abstain for a while or to lessen how often they do the act perhaps.
It may be an example of guarding if you do it whilst declaring intention to avoid "mental enjoyment" and for the purpose of easing the effects of things (and the thoughts that they foster) on you. I think that covers your two cases, but that is the same as "doing it when you have to" as I have always said. However the urge can for a large part be fought and ignored, and so the "ideal perfect Muslim" will not have to do it "purposefully" because their mind and senses are too well guarded.
It almost covers my two cases but not fully. An individual who chooses to masturbate, may do so purely for the orgasm that comes with the act and not for the sake of release. If they do so with a pure mind and sight, then i would think it almost objectively clear that they have not done wrong in the sight of God in accordance with the Quran. So I think that its not the same as "doing it when you have to" its also doing it because it brings pleasure which is a good thing (so long as there is no transgression involved).
Yes someone can choose to abstain from masturbation and fight the urge. One can also fight other urges such as watching a film or eating chocolate and so on. It's obviously not impossible as others have done it but does it really contribute to being the ideal perfect muslim? I think it could potentially make someone in a better standing in the sight of God (hence better muslim) but someone who would choose to avoid such urges would also be better off avoiding other urges such as watching a good film or playing a game or going to a restaurant and so on as they take away time which could be spent on improving themselves or racing towards good deeds (as was to some extent the case with the people like mother theresa)
So if your of the belief that masturbation would be avoided by the ideal muslim because there are better things to attend to, then i would also assume that you agree with me in saying that the ideal muslim would also avoid other blessings and provisions of this worldly life such as playing a good game or going out for fun and so on because they take up time. These verses may be useful
2286 GOD does not impose a person beyond its capacity. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns....
2148 To each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds.....
There are also verses that also advise that we spend of God's provisions. To eat and enjoy of the good things
587-88 O you who acknowledge, do not forbid the good things that God has made lawful to you, and do not transgress God does not like the transgressors. Eat from what God has provided for you, good and lawful; and be aware of God in whom you acknowledge."
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I am loving this thread. 10 pages on Masturbation. What a great forum to keep this thing going.
In Judaism for each desire there is a notion of the Yetzer Ra (Bad Inclination) and Yetzer Tov (Good Inclination). Very similar to Yin and Yang. Basically it has the notion that every inclination is both good and bad. Take greed. Greed causes us to get jobs and work and be productive people. But it can be taken too far and cause us to harm others. Depends on how we focus the desire. Also consider the desire for sex. It is good because it causes us to reproduce. But it can also be bad as it causes us to possibly hurt others (ie rape). The desire itself is not inherently bad nor good. It is how you use that inclination. For example, for some the desire to masturbate allows them stress relief and they are better humans since they haven't all that pent up frustration. On the other hand (sorry the pun) it can be a bad since it can lead you into porn/sex addiction. The goal is to use your desires towards the Yetzer Tov verus the Yetzer Ra.
I think this applies to this conversation as many say it is only bad while other say it is good. I think it can be both bad or good depending on the use and inclination. If it causes you to be a better person, then why not. If it causes you to be a worse person then you should stop. The only things that should be classified as haram are those explicitly listed in the Quran. Otherwise I think desires should be used towards the good inclination to bring you closer to Allah. That is the goal right? If your frustration keeps you from getting close to Allah then try to eliminate the frustration. If the desire causes you to be further from Allah then don't entertain the desire. Just be aware of how your desire affects your goal of getting close to Allah.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
I am loving this thread. 10 pages on Masturbation. What a great forum to keep this thing going.
In Judaism for each desire there is a notion of the Yetzer Ra (Bad Inclination) and Yetzer Tov (Good Inclination). Very similar to Yin and Yang. Basically it has the notion that every inclination is both good and bad. Take greed. Greed causes us to get jobs and work and be productive people. But it can be taken too far and cause us to harm others. Depends on how we focus the desire. Also consider the desire for sex. It is good because it causes us to reproduce. But it can also be bad as it causes us to possibly hurt others (ie rape). The desire itself is not inherently bad nor good. It is how you use that inclination. For example, for some the desire to masturbate allows them stress relief and they are better humans since they haven't all that pent up frustration. On the other hand (sorry the pun) it can be a bad since it can lead you into porn/sex addiction. The goal is to use your desires towards the Yetzer Tov verus the Yetzer Ra.
I think this applies to this conversation as many say it is only bad while other say it is good. I think it can be both bad or good depending on the use and inclination. If it causes you to be a better person, then why not. If it causes you to be a worse person then you should stop. The only things that should be classified as haram are those explicitly listed in the Quran. Otherwise I think desires should be used towards the good inclination to bring you closer to Allah. That is the goal right? If your frustration keeps you from getting close to Allah then try to eliminate the frustration. If the desire causes you to be further from Allah then don't entertain the desire. Just be aware of how your desire affects your goal of getting close to Allah.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceWe are supposed to seek refuge in Allah (SWT) (read Sura 1), not in alcohol, masturbation or anything else that tempts us to forget.
Peace
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So if your of the belief that masturbation would be avoided by the ideal muslim because there are better things to attend to, then i would also assume that you agree with me in saying that the ideal muslim would also avoid other blessings and provisions of this worldly life such as playing a good game or going out for fun and so on because they take up time. These verses may be useful
2286 GOD does not impose a person beyond its capacity. For it is what it earns, and against it is what it earns....
2148 To each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds.....
There are also verses that also advise that we spend of God's provisions. To eat and enjoy of the good things
2148 implies that we should perform good deeds instead of anything else. If you read all of 2286, it is strongly suggesting what I have mentioned about asking forgiveness. Therefore you should do it only when you have to. Indeed we should eat and enjoy of the good things. A lollipop is not a good thing since it essentially rots the teeth. Sex is not a bad thing if approached with a good mind, but it can only be performed with the specified people. Thinking lewd thoughts of others is therefore not a good thing. Thenceforth masturbating for carnal pleasure is not a good thing, and masturbating for the sake of orgasm without dirty thoughts is different in what way from having sex whilst not thinking about it? The result is the same. We should guard our private parts and our chastity. Is it any different if you ejaculate with or without someone? If you drink alcohol without intending to be drunk, you are still choosing a negative action over a more positive alternative (because the Qur'an mentions intoxicating drinks, not specific amounts of intoxicating drinks). Playing a good game or eating a nice meal is allowed by default firstly because "good things" = "good food" = nice meal, and secondly Allah (SWT) presents the same attitude to games of chance as alochol. This immediately implies that games are OK if they are not a specific type... As long as you are not going near any of the sins and you are fulfilling your duty as a Muslim, it is really common sense (I had answered this in the "cricket" thread).
http//www.answering-christianity.com/masturbation.htm
The same common sense approach is presented above, but in the end it will come down to whether "chastity" refers to orgasm (in which case orgasm out of necessity is not to be taken as losing one's chastity since the mind is still sound), or to actual sex between people. We seem to have arrived at the point where only masturbation whilst not thinking about sex, or possibly when thinking about one's absent wife, is to be considered. If it is not necessary to masturbate, then even if you would do it with a "pure mind", why would you do so being Muslim? If you want to relax, then follow what you preach in Sura 1 (the penis is not a muscle that needs to be massaged). I think you are referring to times when you are bored and thus would like to fiddle with it. Boredom is a sign that you have to find something to do, and meditating is supposed to be a de-stress whilst people on this forum seem to advocate it!). As for thinking about one's wife, the same general argument should probably apply (i.e. wait as long as you can because pure sex gives mutual pleasure 2187).
Peace.
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I did not detect a single argument throughout Mushu?s post. He seems to have misinterpreted most of my reply in his attempt to salvage his ego. E.g.
False. That is the problem.
If you look at the context of what I said, the quality of his ability becomes apparent.
Does it? Where?
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve ENJOY THEMSELVES AND eat as the beasts eat??
But it's not fornication. What if the fantasy is not of fornication, but of marriage? What if your fantasy is that Beyonce is your wife? That would mean you're actually thinking of something completely halal.
What an idea! It is a pity I have mentioned that countless times already. He projects his own opinions of my standpoint without reading my argument. That is typical of a hyped-up kid.
But nothing from quran to back this up. A good muslim enjoys the good things of this life.
Now anyone who has read the Qur?an understands that the devil makes foul things seem fair. According to mushu, a cream-pie is good because it tastes nice (even if there are healthier alternatives which would benefit us and add just a little bit to our ability to worship Allah (SWT) before we die).
Your attempt at a refutation was even shorter. Funnily, the site you linked translates fahisha in 7/28 as immorality.
Not injustice like you ?EXPLAINED?.
No, it means what it declares. It just doesn't mean what you declare.
And it declares that enjoying themselves includes following one?s base instincts below a necessary standard.
Of course they are different words, that's the whole point. If they were the same word then there wouldn't be a contrast. Fahisha is contrasted with qisti.
Just like the word ?big? is contrasted with ?yummy???
So you're admitting that guarding your farjaha doesn't mean to literally guard your penis. So why is masturbation a violation of such guarding? The problem is you're projecting something onto the verse that isn't there. The guarding is metaphorical (obviously) otherwise you couldn't have sex with your wife. So you're not meant to guard your penis from your wife. Why then would you need to guard your penis from your own hand?
Please read what I wrote one more time. Good boy.
You're yet to show the quranic ayah that suggests thinking about someone is disrespecting them in Allah's mandate.
Eating human meat would be fine for you by this logic. Please refer to my list of verses particularly the ones about guarding (this includes ALL ways).
Is that what I implied? You claimed that 47/12 says satiating a base desire is an inclination away from Islam. It does not say this. Why is it animalistic to satiate a base desire? Please provide quranic proof. Hint 47/12 does not say this.
Doing it when not necessary is. That is my point all along ? Hint thinking lewd thoughts is not a base desire. You do not need to masturbate the same way that we need to masticate.
Yes, that is what I am saying. Why should you ask for forgiveness if it is not forbidden? Should one seek forgiveness if your wife masturbates you freely for your pleasure? Why does it then require forgiveness when it is your hand doing it? When did your hand become something to be ashamed and guilty of?
You are allowed to have sex with your wife. You seem to misunderstand that it is one?s thoughts that this thread has been focussed on. Masturbation (in this context) is the result of a desire for sexual release, and sex is not allowed except before the specified people. You are not guarding your thoughts if you experience sexual pleasure from them. Allah (SWT) specified when we were to guard our chastity, and yet having sex with oneself is somehow different for you (if sex means intercourse, then that does not make indecent acts indecent) (this is an argument against doing it with a ?pure mind?). Maybe you could try it with a watermelon or a donkey (since by your logic we should be able to include one?s pets in ?ma malakat aymanukum!)? Allah (SWT) did not except masturbation like he did sex with wives and ma malakat aymanukum. Finally, if it is not necessary then you are only after sexual pleasure which is the whole point of being attracted to the opposite sex anyway (see my reply to nimnimak).
Does the 'or' imply you've conceded it is a choice that people can make without feeling guilty? People can focus on several things in their lives. You're entire argument is that it is 'inadvisable' yet can't show where this advice originated from using quran.
It meant follow Sura 1 and not use lame excuses such as equating ?stress? with the necessity for sex. Please use ?your? rather than ?you?re? because that was grammatically incorrect. I have explained my point many times by examining the nature of the act and applying Qur?anic principle.
The rest is the standard response.
Mushu shoo.
Peace. -
It should be noted (e.g. by moderators but not just them therefore this is a public posting) that I will not be rude to people who do not pretend to have a point and who do not distort the issue first. If a moderator believes that the verses I post are irrelevant, he or she will join the discussion.
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Peace.
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Ironic.
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Well here it is. Please note that it does actually cover the arguments. Relating masturbation as equal to any game or sport (as a diversion) is addressed by the fact that it draws closer to indecency than they (and it is an indecent act), and so just like we would not eat unusual animals that are not normally hunted before usual meats (i.e. we would not eat dog before chicken - see 53-4 for the emphasis on eating what we normally hunt), we will not perform this act when there is a range of alternatives.
If I am wasting bandwidth, please delete my previous posting of this.
?This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).?
22
We should guard everything about ourselves (including our thoughts since they lead to temptation). Whoever guards their thoughts will automatically avoid it until (if) absolutely necessary. We should not look for excuses (loopholes).
??and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed.?
6151
We should not even think about these things because impure thoughts (though concealed) lead to impure impulses. If then we fall to temptation, we should ask forgiveness. Just because our thoughts and associated actions are concealed, it does not mean we are not accountable for intentions
??and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it.?
2284
Indecent thoughts are indecencies, and we should be remembering Allah (SWT) instead (3191).
?Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed??
733
See the notes for 6151.
?And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way.?
1732
Thinking about fornication in conjunction with the act is inclining towards it. Enjoying the act is welcoming the lure of the same (fulfilment of) temptations which fornication offers.
?And who guard their private parts??
235
Performing it is not keeping chaste or abstaining from sexual acts. However, 235 is permitted with regards to spouses and ma malakat aymanukum. Note performing the act whilst thinking about one?s spouse is not excepted (see 237) If masturbation were permissible, it might have been included here. After all, committing indecent acts with wives and ma malakat aymanukum is allowed, but not committing indecent acts with oneself!
?O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.?
2421
The devil desires you to think lewd thoughts and to enjoy them
?Shaitan threatens you with poverty and enjoins on you immorality, and Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.?
2268
Thus even if we feel absolutely compelled (i.e. ?justified?), we should ask forgiveness from Allah (SWT). The fact that we should seek forgiveness obviously means the act is inadvisable (un-Islamic).
?Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.?
2430
Impure thoughts naturally invite to impure impulses. In this context, thinking of anyone but one?s spouse (as far as my understanding goes) is not guarding one?s inner modesty as a servant of Allah (SWT). It should be noted that 235 does not give an exception for performing the act whilst <i>thinking</i> about one?s spouse (hence it is completely haram in traditional schools). It should also be considered that ideally sexual pleasure is mutual pleasure, and in Allah?s (SWT) mandate it may be more respectful for sex (certainly) and sexual fantasies to remain mutual (hence ?casting down our looks?). Finally, there is the fact that committing indecent acts with oneself (assessable by the nature of it being so if another did it for us) is not made permissible like it is with spouses and ma malakat aymanukum.
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace.?
2433
There is no link here between marriage and nikah, and because chastity is demanded except before spouses and ma malakat aymanukum, anything outside of this is prohibited or inadvisable. The act is not simply an act; it is a thought, a compulsion with the thought, an intention and an action that could have been prevented by distracting oneself (e.g. guarding and remembering Allah (SWT)). Now even if we feign a ?pure mind?, it is not like a muscle that needs to be massaged and secondly it is an indecent act simply performed on ourselves by ourselves. This suggests that sexual acts should be mutual with the specified people.
?Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.?
4712
Giving in to temptation is the way of disbelief, thus one should guard one?s thoughts (22). Stress is not an excuse (15). One can of course enjoy family time between praying, working and being upright. In all cases, the right choice will be obvious to true believers (2256-267).
?So whatever thing you are given, that is only a provision of this world's life, and what is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord. And those who shun the great sins, and the indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive.?
4236-37
These ayat say that remembering Allah (SWT) is more beneficial than giving in to temptation. It is advisable to avoid the act because this is in accordance of the ideals of true Muslims. Allowing oneself to think about indecencies is not shunning them. We are only human, but that is partly why we must remember Him standing, sitting and lying (3191). It gives us the greatest chance to develop ourselves, and "harmless pleasure" is not an excuse because the devil makes foul deeds (and the thoughts that go with them) seem fair (e.g. 2212, 314, 848 and 1012). Masturbation is an indecency by oneself on oneself (obviously by the fact it would be if a stranger did it on one) regardless of one's state of mind.
?Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.?
9017
Muslims should tell each other to be patient (e.g. against temptation). See also Sura 103.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and thus you should not do it if you can help it (e.g. by praying to remember Allah (SWT) and finding other diversions). There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
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Is that it, Khuda Hafiz? Is your word, the final word for all mankind of all time? Is your word, the ONE word?
Relating masturbation as equal to any game or sport (as a diversion) is addressed by the fact that it draws closer to indecency than they (and it is an indecent act), and so just like we would not eat unusual animals that are not normally hunted before usual meats (i.e. we would not eat dog before chicken - see 53-4 for the emphasis on eating what we normally hunt), we will not perform this act when there is a range of alternatives.
In short, though there is no punishment, it is not advisable and thus you should not do it if you can help it (e.g. by praying to remember Allah (SWT) and finding other diversions). There are perhaps grounds to consider it haram, but that is neither here nor there.
Khuda Hafiz
You may want to reevaluate your use of the words "should" and "should not". Again, are those the final words for all mankind of all time?
... Or are those just the final words for yourself?
Could it be that the moderators and some other people here are more concerned about your pushing of your final words for yourself, as the final words for others--more so than the destructive/creative possibilities of the act itself? For me, yes that is my concern.
Your finding and learning is much respected, that's for sure. I do respect your opinion. Can you do the same to others? Can you respect other people's opinion and their own responsibility to do the best for themselves? If for example, someone found out for him/herself that in his own unique circumstances, masturbation would be the best solution for him/her, would you respect his/her decision?
Yes, masturbation is not as "inadvisable" as perhaps you think it is. Would you even think of that as a possibility, even if it's beyond what your current belief says?
Is it so impossible for these two statements...
A) one is masturbating
B) one is remembering his/her Creator...to be connected by the conjunction AND?
(or in other topics, you can change statement A) to "one is gaming/sporting/..." etc)
Well if it is impossible for you, would you then respect someone else who's able to make it possible?
No, you are not wasting bandwidth, and maybe, just maybe, you can take up some time to consider that there could be wisdom in what other people are saying or trying to say, even if they didn't deliver it perfectly well in their presentation?
P.S. Btw you might want to move out your contents from the site you linked in your sig, because when i clicked it, i saw an indecent banner image (i.e. a woman in a bikini in a questionable pose -- a cartoon one though, but still it is the image of a woman) -- just thought that it doesn't seem to be up to your standard.
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This discussion is like a merry-go-round.... I love merry-go-round. Eventhough you get nowhere the ride is fun.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
It's freaking disturbing, man.
There is no verse that says it's okay or not to tickle your winky from time to time.
If there is, I hold it in high suspicion and contempt.In fact, if that's the way it is... let's enforce a rule that we have to do it at least once a day
....just to keep our heads from exploding. -
A) one is masturbating
B) one is remembering his/her Creator...to be connected by the conjunction AND?
By asking forgiveness, as I mentioned so many times.
The ads do not seem to show on my computer. You may wish to tweak your settings (or download a blocker). Apologies.
Peace.