Masturbation
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The short answer is to read the Qur'an. Children are born without knowledge of responsibility (in all forms), so this is no different. Discover, adapt, grow.If you say you are on a path, then follow it.
Peace.
Peace,
So where does it say that exploring my sexuality is forbidden?
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I am sorry you do not seem to understand that according to the Qur?an, humans were made to worship God and this life is a test. How you perceive the test is itself the landscape, but the test is the test. I think you are pretty shallow whilst pretending to be deep, but a deep ocean is also an empty ocean as demonstrated (once again) by wishy-washy righteousness without substance which is really the inability to stomach Islam as a religion. You seem to think that studying the Qur?an is a sin, but that is easy to understand if we realise that you and your ilk actually look at the Qur?an as a philosophy without actually believing it (yet you call yourself Muslim and have a problem with people who act like Muslims). That is fine, but then only according to your own religion are you correct. Indeed the Qur?an is a book of truths! So what does the Qur?an actually mandate? The landscape is our own thoughts (e.g. the Qur?an does not define every word like ?compassion? for us!), but the Qur?an is plain unless you want to argue otherwise.
You are also dumb in that you seem to miss the absence of my ?declaring? anything haram. I said that masturbation is quite evidently (from the Qur?an) not in ANY way beneficial for being a Muslim (i.e. serving Allah (SWT)) and thus to say ?it is permissible because it is not specifically mentioned? is itself a shallow statement showing why ?Qur?an-alone? never progresses.
Therefore, you will bring the verses.
?
Peace.
You gathered all that about me simply cause I said you are attempting to legislate all morality? Hilarious. I shouldn't be surprised though; that's your MO. You take your preconceived views and dress them up however you see fit in quranic garb, and castigate anyone who disagrees with you. You are of the worst types of people on this planet self-righteous extremists who equate their own arbitrary whims with divine dictates.
I didn't miss your lack of "declaring" it as haram. I just read between the lines. You merely pay lip service. If you sit there and say something is not necessarily haram but then go on and on about how bad -- or sorry, "inadvisable" -- something is, well...the writing's on the wall.
Your very first post in this thread was pasting the following verse
"Say My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed..."
I know you won't recognize this because, again, you think any of your preconceived views are by default endorsed by the quran, but implicit in your posting that verse is the assumption that masturbation is automatically "indecent." You take that as an automatic given and proceed to build paper castles around that view, in the process looking down upon anyone who dares disagree with you.
You then say things like "When you do so, you should do it for the sole purpose of release and not for enjoyment." Please, why don't you "bring the verses" on that? These are all your own views. My guess is you will again twist 4712 to answer this question, outlawing anything you deem to be 'enjoyment.'
Stop looking for loaded buzzwords in the text and attaching your own views to them. It is offensive and malicious. You think you are "drawing obvious conclusions from obvious principles" but I assure you, you are not. The diversity in views should tip you off to that fact. You are imposing your own personal values. What you are doing is far, far, FAR worse than...gasp, masturbating ever could be.
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The diversity of views arises from the fact that some views are better researched than others? The sad fact is that you cannot argue with the principles which arise from the verses I have listed. Anyone can accuse me of what you accuse me of without reading and re-reading what I said, but I cannot respond to every offended person who is begging me not to apply too much logic.I read this and wondered why you would bother to reply without any substance whatsoever. I have asked for an explanation of 4153 but the simple truth is no-one can relate it to the topic in question.
I deduced everything about you because it was obvious, and you haven?t denied. If you are not fake then you will ?bring the verses? and say something worth reading.
Masturbation for enjoyment is inadvisable (unless perhaps you think appropriately of your spouse) because firstly that is lewd (the Qur?an forbids that!), secondly it is animalistic (an attribute of unbelief (4712)) and thirdly (but not lastly) it is in no way beneficial for being a Muslim (serving Allah (SWT)). It is like eating ? we should be moderate (eating of the good things), and guarding (e.g. thoughts, intentions). If you set no standard, you will slip. It is best to set the best standard, and that is all I say. The Qur?an does not define compassion because we already know it. It does not define ?lewdness? because we know what is indecent (if unsure, examine the principles of the Qur?an).
It is up to you to prove something to your own desire and stop complaining since all your huff and puff will never blow the house down. Your comments are as usual wishy-washy, and that means that you have a wishy-washy understanding of what you ?follow?. If you have a problem with someone who has a view, it is best to actually argue.
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Peace.
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because firstly that is lewd
Your own personal value. Prove otherwise.
secondly it is animalistic (an attribute of unbelief (4712))
Your own assumption. Also, a pointless empty statement.
and thirdly (but not lastly) it is in no way beneficial for being a Muslim (serving Allah (SWT)).
Red herring. Not everything needs be "beneficial." Some things just...are. Sleeping 8 hours vs. 5 hours is not "beneficial" for being a Muslim, one way or the other. And yet our choice in sleep is up to us. Not everything is legislated. You will never realize this, however. You are a braindead sheep, intent on passing off your views as divine dictate. What's worse, you think you use logic simply cause you plaster each post with multiple verses.
It does not define ?lewdness? because we know what is indecent (if unsure, examine the principles of the Qur?an).
No, "we" don't know anything. I know my own views, and you know yours. Difference is, I don't attempt to force mine on you. Again, your own assumption. Circular statements like "if unsure, examine the principles of the Qur'an" are just laughable. Quite amazing how blatantly you put the cart before the horse.
It is up to you to prove something to your own desire and stop complaining since all your huff and puff will never blow the house down. Your comments are as usual wishy-washy, and that means that you have a wishy-washy understanding of what you ?follow?. If you have a problem with someone who has a view, it is best to actually argue.
My views seem wishy-washy to you precisely because you have this moronic need to label everything, to put everything into a box. I don't. Deal with it.
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This. Thread. Is. Hilarious.
Geez, you lot seem to be frustrated at each other. Just relax a bit, so you can release your frustration (excuse the lame pun).
Correct me if I'm wrong because I am still trying to digest what is being said. I get the impression that both pro and anti masturbation actually agree that the Qur'an does not say that it is haraam or halaal? The main argument is whether someone should do it or not?
Seriously, if someone feels the sexual urge and wants to keep themselves away from fornication/adultery, then by all means, masturbation will be the lesser of the devils and do it if they cannot control their sexuality otherwise.
If you believe masturbation will keep you away from God's path (by constantly thinking of indecent thoughts), then refrain from it. Simple.
As human beings bestowed with wisdom and knowledge should understand what is best for them, using Qur'anic principles as the guidelines. One can say that masturbation falls under lewdness - but does the Qur'an ever associates masturbation with lewdness? Maybe, maybe not. As it stands, the view seems to be culture-oriented at best. Many of us have been raised to believe that sex, or anything that revolves around it, is dirty. Hence, masturbation = dirty = lewdness. When it may not necessarily be so. I don't know.
Anyway, one needs to consider that every individual has different approach to masturbation. One can do it excessively, one can do it in moderation, one can do it without indecent thoughts. It depends to the individual. Masturbation as an act itself may be harmless. It's just how someone utilises it that matters. I can liken it to eating. Eating is harmless; it is only when you eat excessively that is forbidden.
It's quite judgmental to say that masturbation will make someone remember God less. If that is your take to one act, then why don't you apply it to every single activity that you do in your life? Why go shopping? Why meeting up with friends? Why using the internet? Why studying at high school/university? Why doing my assignment if I'll be too engrossed finding the right formula to design concrete beam for three-storey office with medium occupation, or finding the appropriate journals to read so I can just finish this essay on the impact of globalisation on the local cultures and national identities (okay, my personal vent there)? Why, why, why??? Forget masturbation, I think other affairs distract us as well, even more than masturbation. Why don't I just sit on the corner so I can remember God 24/7? Why don't I just eat a spoonful of rice everyday, and not enjoy the goodness of life's food, because I don't want to enjoy life too much and forget God. So many people are starving out there, so if I eat more, then I'll spend more on myself and less on charity (God tells us to give charity, right???).
IMO the argument that masturbation will make us remember God less cannot be projected on every single individual, really. Just saying that it's not forbidden, so we shouldn't put our righteous turban on and accuse those who masturbate to be unIslamic (unless you really understand what they do and think). That being said, I am not advocating masturbation. I personally believe it's best to refrain from, if one can control the urge.
Just my two cents.
- Peace -
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It does not define ?lewdness? because we know what is indecent
Not necessarily. Every society has different take on what it decent and what is not. One culture may see physical contact with opposite sex (e.g. shaking hands), is indecent, while another may not. One culture may see that eating a certain animal to be disgusting, while another may not. What is Qur'anically indecent will be explicitly stated, and the rest will be left to us to use our wisdom.
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=MesMorial link=topic=9602352.msg277512#msg277512 date=1301700451]
Your first point only shows that you don't know or believe the Qur'an. Read 733 and use logic (and stop misquoting 732 whilst ignoring the next ayah).Your second point (like your post before that) is as valid as saying it is fine to kick the Qur'an around in secret because it is not hurting anyone's feelings. By attempting to justify masturbation for enjoyment (you seem to be resurging again with that intent) that is all you are doing. Why not write a poem glorifying the eating of pork from a pig that doesn't exist (because you did not know him/her personally). Does the Qur'an say you had to know women specifically to respect them as a whole? Better yet, why not play pornographic computer games because the "people" are not actually real? So what is the difference? Can you explain the difference between that and voluntary (unnecessary) masturbation?
Your third point is tired and misses the fact that after you have sex with a hot girl you will also ignore another hundred. What is your point?
Peace.
Now Now, you know pretty well what i ment on all 3 points, but you go and reply to them like i said something different just to win this argument, sad.
Your third point is tired and misses the fact that after you have sex with a hot girl you will also ignore another hundred. What is your point?
I ment masturbating, we were not discussing about sex here. And who the hell masturbates when he/she's horny? Masturbating is done so you won't be horny again for a certain time, there is not much enjoyment on it thats why only 12 year olds do it for enjoyment.
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I deduced everything about you because it was obvious, and you haven?t denied. If you are not fake then you will ?bring the verses? and say something worth reading.
I deduce from the quote and the threads that when you call others utterly devoid of logic, you are actually trying to compensate for your own inadequacy in that area.
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I deduce from the quote and the threads that when you call others utterly devoid of logic, you are actually trying to compensate for your own inadequacy in that area.
Aside from the fact you still have not answered my question, you will be devoid of logic if you cannot explain the logic that led you to "deduce" that.
Peace.
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Not necessarily. Every society has different take on what it decent and what is not. One culture may see physical contact with opposite sex (e.g. shaking hands), is indecent, while another may not. One culture may see that eating a certain animal to be disgusting, while another may not. What is Qur'anically indecent will be explicitly stated, and the rest will be left to us to use our wisdom.
I added "if you are unsure..."
Peace
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Aside from the fact you still have not answered my question, you will be devoid of logic if you cannot explain the logic that led you to "deduce" that.
Peace.
I think I'll borrow someone's logic "It's obvious".
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=MesMorial link=topic=9602352.msg277512#msg277512 date=1301700451]
Your first point only shows that you don't know or believe the Qur'an. Read 733 and use logic (and stop misquoting 732 whilst ignoring the next ayah).Your second point (like your post before that) is as valid as saying it is fine to kick the Qur'an around in secret because it is not hurting anyone's feelings. By attempting to justify masturbation for enjoyment (you seem to be resurging again with that intent) that is all you are doing. Why not write a poem glorifying the eating of pork from a pig that doesn't exist (because you did not know him/her personally). Does the Qur'an say you had to know women specifically to respect them as a whole? Better yet, why not play pornographic computer games because the "people" are not actually real? So what is the difference? Can you explain the difference between that and voluntary (unnecessary) masturbation?
Your third point is tired and misses the fact that after you have sex with a hot girl you will also ignore another hundred. What is your point?
Peace.
Now Now, you know pretty well what i ment on all 3 points, but you go and reply to them like i said something different just to win this argument, sad.
Your third point is tired and misses the fact that after you have sex with a hot girl you will also ignore another hundred. What is your point?
I ment masturbating, we were not discussing about sex here. And who the hell masturbates when he/she's horny? Masturbating is done so you won't be horny again for a certain time, there is not much enjoyment on it thats why only 12 year olds do it for enjoyment.
Now why did you not explain the first two if I was wrong? You asked "who the hell masturbates when he/she's horny?"
That is a stupid question. Finally you change your argument by re-defining the purpose of masturbation (i.e. release and not pleasure!). So as your remembrance and discipline increases, you will feel the urge less. It is also not a matter of simply doing it whenever you think of it. That is simply following such thoughts.
The argument against you was won long ago.
Peace.
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Now why did you not explain the first two if I was wrong? You asked "who the hell masturbates when he/she's horny?"
That is a stupid question. Finally you change your argument by re-defining the purpose of masturbation (i.e. release and not pleasure!). So as your remembrance and discipline increases, you will feel the urge less. It is also not a matter of simply doing it whenever you think of it. That is simply following such thoughts.
The argument against you was won long ago.
Peace.
I forgot to add a NOT at the word when he/she's horny
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I think I'll borrow someone's logic "It's obvious".
Obvious after reading the Qur'an? Have you missed all of the verses I have quoted? Of course you have because you provide a verse which you cannot relate to any argument. You have no definite/developed argument, understanding, view or place in Islam if you cannot understand the basics. It is sad.
Peace.
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And i didnt answer them because you changed the meaning of what i said, if you dont wanna play fair im not just gonna go nice with you.
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Obvious after reading the Qur'an? Have you missed all of the verses I have quoted? Of course you have because you provide a verse which you cannot relate to any argument. You have no definite/developed argument, understanding, view or place in Islam if you cannot understand the basics. It is sad.
Peace.
Plenty of people here have shown you that the verses you quote have little to do with your assertions. Repeating the same thing constantly will not make it true. Being condescending and abrasive to everyone on the thread you even think might disagree with you is sad.
If you can't see this, which you can't or won't...it's pointless to continue any further discussion.
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I forgot to add a NOT at the word when he/she's horny
Who thinks those thoughts when not horny? Again we agree that you only do this thing when you have to. Obviously the stronger you are, the better that is because it is not advisable to do it for enjoyment. If you masturbate because you are horny (as in ready), you should do so for release (i.e. you should probably be able to do it without much thought or effort). If you really believe (have iman), it will not be hard. Logically one should ask for forgiveness before and/or after. The ideal of course is not to do it at all, but we are all human. We should also be able to recongise that it is not halal and consists of temptations towards lewdness of thought with action. Thus we should guard (how many times in the Qur'an does it say that)?
Peace.
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Plenty of people here have shown you that the verses you quote have little to do with your assertions. Repeating the same thing constantly will not make the it true. Being condescending and abrasive to everyone on the thread you even think might disagree with you is sad.
If you can't see this, which you can't or won't...it's pointless to continue any further discussion.
It is pointless for you to continue this discussion since you will be unable to provide one example of someone proving that the verses are irrelevant.
But the more egos, the more amusing it is (egos are like a sixth sense and can be bruised in that way!). My style is my style and is not yours to control.Peace.