Polygyny - a new understanding from Quran?
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Peace,
It seems like you regard the quran as being a book to men and not to women. Do you think God is only the God of men and not of women?
No.
Now let me teach you simple arabic gramma, my dear friend. First of all, in arabic if you have a group of 1000 females and if even ONE boy joins the group of thousand women, the group would be regarded masculin. In other words when you talk to many people - males and females - in arabic(plural) then you would refer to them as men. For instance if I see 5 people and ONE of them is a boy and FOUR of them are girls, I would talk with them as they were all boys. In arabic the masculin words applies for both males and females while the feminine words applies for women exclusively
That is why most of the quran in most cases use masculin words - and hence quran is almost impossible to translate to another language especially english who has a whole different gramma. And thats the problem when people like you use translation and hence miss all the point.
Everything regarded to males in the quran also applies for women except when otherwise is clearly mentioned.Therefore the above verse you quoted applies for both men and women. So men are also a tillage for women who we(women) can approach whenever we like and as we like.
So yes, a woman who is married to 4 men can approach all her husbands as she likes and when she likes and her men can also approach her when they like. AND NO THIS IS NOT A PERMISSION FOR RAPE.
No. What you are referring is to are specific words used in specific context and reason I pointed you toward the inheritance verses which clearly define the terms e.g. rijlan can be 99 females and one male; likewise 4176 states " and if they are ikh'watan/brethren rijlan/men and women wanisan " which applies for all combinations of mixed siblings apply " so to the male like share the two females " and likewise ikh'watan also 411 is at least two people, one is male otherwise you have a contradiction with an excess on distributions to the case of deceased kalala with a sister and mother which each gets half.
Nisikum (your females/women/wives) cannot apply or mean as your males/men/husbands in Qur?an.
Yes a group is addressed, yet possessive, i.e. each individuals? nisikum not someone else?s as in 411 directs you Allah in your children ? not those belonging to someone else.
2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations with your women
Simply try finding a contradicting verse where nisa applies to males ? you cannot, Qur?an is clear on this.
4176 they seek your ruling say Allah gives you a ruling in the kalala if a person died is not to that person an offspring and to that person a sister so for her half what left the deceased and he inherits if not is to her an offspring so if they are two females so to them the two thirds from what left the deceased and if they are brethren men and women so to the male like share the two females clarifies Allah to you lest you stray and Allah in every thing Knowing
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Peace,
No.
No. What you are referring is to are specific words used in specific context and reason I pointed you toward the inheritance verses which clearly define the terms e.g. rijlan can be 99 females and one male; likewise 4176 states " and if they are ikh'watan/brethren rijlan/men and women wanisan " which applies for all combinations of mixed siblings apply " so to the male like share the two females " and likewise ikh'watan also 411 is at least two people, one is male otherwise you have a contradiction with an excess on distributions to the case of deceased kalala with a sister and mother which each gets half.
Nisikum (your females/women/wives) cannot apply or mean as your males/men/husbands in Qur?an.
Yes a group is addressed, yet possessive, i.e. each individuals? nisikum not someone else?s as in 411 directs you Allah in your children ? not those belonging to someone else.
2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations with your women
Simply try finding a contradicting verse where nisa applies to males ? you cannot, Qur?an is clear on this.
4176 they seek your ruling say Allah gives you a ruling in the kalala if a person died is not to that person an offspring and to that person a sister so for her half what left the deceased and he inherits if not is to her an offspring so if they are two females so to them the two thirds from what left the deceased and if they are brethren men and women so to the male like share the two females clarifies Allah to you lest you stray and Allah in every thing Knowing
I am sorry to say it, but you are a very confused person. You mention this verse 2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations with your women And you say that this verse applies for men only? Then does it mean that women cannot have sexual relationship with their husbands in the night of the fasting? You are contradicting the verse. Your women means your women but since it also applies for women it also means your men otherwise it would mean that only a husband can have sex with her wife in the night but the wife cannot have sex with him in the night confused
So it applies for both men and women.And again your are running in circles with the inheritance verses. And yes its written that a woman inherits half of what a man inherits, and whats your point with that? Are you trying to say that a woman is half worth of a man or whats your point?
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N?men!!! Vad roligt! Stay strong sistah!
Tack tack yes Er du svenska? Kan du forst? dansk?
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I am sorry to say it, but you are a very confused person. You mention this verse 2187 permitted to you night the fasting the sexual relations with your women And you say that this verse applies for men only? Then does it mean that women cannot have sexual relationship with their husbands in the night of the fasting? You are contradicting the verse. Your women means your women but since it also applies for women it also means your men otherwise it would mean that only a husband can have sex with her wife in the night but the wife cannot have sex with him in the night confused
So it applies for both men and women.Read accurately, it says exactly what it says?
2187 permitted to you (i.e. plural addresses all believing men) night the fasting the sexual relations with your females/women/wives? (Possessive pronoun)
It says that each man can only have sex with their women not with another man?s wife same as all believing males are addressed and prohibited from having sex with their relations.
423 prohibited on you your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mother?s sisters...
424 and the untouchable from the females only what possess your right hand/oathsAnd again your are running in circles with the inheritance verses. And yes its written that a woman inherits half of what a man inherits, and whats your point with that? Are you trying to say that a woman is half worth of a man or whats your point?
My point was to show you precisely that words like nisa can only apply to females and never to males and it?s not always true that a woman inherits half that of a man which depends on the inheritors e.g. siblings (412) share equally 1/6, 1/3 or parents (411) equally 1/6 or the only daughter and two sons; she always gets 1/2 or double the amount of 1/4 that each of the two sons would receive.
Read Qur?an and follow exactly what is written.
Peace!
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Read accurately, it says exactly what it says?
2187 permitted to you (i.e. plural addresses all believing men) night the fasting the sexual relations with your females/women/wives? (Possessive pronoun)
It says that each man can only have sex with their women not with another man?s wife same as all believing males are addressed and prohibited from having sex with their relations.
423 prohibited on you your mothers and your daughters and your sisters and your father?s sisters and your mother?s sisters...
424 and the untouchable from the females only what possess your right hand/oathsMy point was to show you precisely that words like nisa can only apply to females and never to males and it?s not always true that a woman inherits half that of a man which depends on the inheritors e.g. siblings (412) share equally 1/6, 1/3 or parents (411) equally 1/6 or the only daughter and two sons; she always gets 1/2 or double the amount of 1/4 that each of the two sons would receive.
Read Qur?an and follow exactly what is written.
Peace!
You are such a confused person. The subject was whether polyandry are allowed and now you try to teach me that a man can only have sex with his own wife and not someone else wife! from a verse. Well GOODMORNING! And as i said earlier in Arabic masculine is not really masculine since its for both males and females except when anything else is clearly mentioned.
I have read the quran many times and i can see that so has you since you have failed to present a verse which prohibts polyandry..
Return to the subject please
Peace
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You are such a confused person. The subject was whether polyandry are allowed and now you try to teach me that a man can only have sex with his own wife and not someone else wife! from a verse. Well GOODMORNING! And as i said earlier in Arabic masculine is not really masculine since its for both males and females except when anything else is clearly mentioned.
I have read the quran many times and i can see that so has you since you have failed to present a verse which prohibts polyandry..
Return to the subject please
Peace
Example of basic logic which differentiates the human from animal
- A dog is tracking comes to a fork in the road sniffs path 1 = FALSE
- It does not logically reason that if not path 1 then path 2 = TRUE
- No, it also needs to sniff path 2, be shown for it to register TRUE
Peace!
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Example of basic logic which differentiates the human from animal
- A dog is tracking comes to a fork in the road sniffs path 1 = FALSE
- It does not logically reason that if not path 1 then path 2 = TRUE
- No, it also needs to sniff path 2, be shown for it to register TRUE
Peace!
The best answer to a fool is silence.
Peace
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Again you are imposing your pakistani-pendu thoughts upon the quran. The verse surah al nisa talks about mohsenaat and not about motzawaja(married). So please learn arabic before you talk.
Secondly what has these above verse you quoted to do with anything regarding polyandry? They do not apply for a women having multiple husbands since she is not divorced.I got the answer that truly you are not an Arab, as was earlier claimed.
The question is if one of the husbands divorces her?
Only non Arab could think of placing "motzawaja" in the sentence in place of Mohsanaatu.
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is one of the Proxy Subject of feminine Passive Verb "Prohibited/sanctified are". That is the reason why it is in nominative case. And is definite as a specific sub-class of main category within/from amongst the women. And is Passive Participe, which refers to only such women upon whom the act present in the verb from which it was derived has since been done.
After the word "motzawaja" cannot be used.
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So you say that despite that there are no verse in the quran who forbids a woman to have 2 or more husbands I will come to the ''logic'' conclusion that a man can have multiple wives but a woman cannot have multiple husbands? Can you please tell me where this socalled logic is?
Salaam sister,
Maybe you didn?t notice my last sentence in my first response.
"Ps I? am only talking about that it?s forbidden for a woman to have 2 or more husbands at the same time, I? am not talking about how many wives a man can have."
Thus I was only talking about a woman with more then 1 husband.
Please read 2432-33 and 2235 InsjaAllah you will come now to the conclusion that it?s impossible for a woman to have two husbands at the same time or even in the subscribed time between 2 marriages.
Of course there is not a direct prohibition mention in The Quran but if you use a little bit of logic then it?s for sure not possible for a muslim woman to have 2 husbands or more at the same time, thus if it?s not possible for her according to the Quran and she still insists to marry a second husband, then she is doing something against what The Quran teaches, this is in my view doing something that is forbidden. If you still think after the verses that I gave you above that it is possible for her, then I? am sure you also think that a woman or a man can marry an animal and have sex with it. There is no verse in The Quran that forbids it directly.
It?s true that we are not allowed to forbid things what is not forbidden but preaching the other way around is also not good.
Please keep in mind verse 733, I think this verse says enough about some claims you did.Well as an arabic speaker I know what you are talking about regarding the arabic gramma, in Arabic when masculin gender is mentioned it applies for both men and women but when feminine gender is mentioned its for women exclusive. For instance if you have a large group with 50 girls and ONE boy you would mention them as a male group rotfl
So naturally as you mentioned quranic passages applies for both male and females when God males. For instance Quran in surah Nisa says 'Dont inherit women against their will'' Okay does that mean that we women can inherit men against their will since that passage is directed to men confused No - This applies for both genders. A man cannot inherit a woman against her will neither can a woman inherit a man against his will.If you mean 419 I see no reason why this verse is also applying for the women. Please read in The Quran what the relationship is between a man and his wife. I?m sure you all ready read it, but if not then please read mainly chapter 2221 and further, chapter 4, chapter 24 and chapter 65. In my understanding 419 is special for the men and not for the women. In my opinion you can?t reason here the other way around and say that this verse is also applying for woman. Because it is in my opinion different as for example 423. In 423 there is by force also a law for the woman in it and here it's not. I hope you understand what I mean.
Maybe you will say something like, that it?s thus allowed for a woman to inherit a man against his will acoording to 419, but then I will again refer you to the chapters I just mentioned to see what the relationship is between an man and a woman. Maybe I'm wrong but at this moment this is how I see it.So there are two conclusions Since quran does not set any limits for how many husbands a female can have, it means that the verse 42-3 applies for both men and women(Both can have multiple spouses if it is for the sake of the orphans)
Otherwise it can means 42-3 is not about polygyny hence neither a man or woman can marry more then one.peaceh
Maybe there is also an option 3 We don?t understand the verse.
Well, at least for me there is this option 3. None of the explanations that I?ve read thus far convinced me. Not the explanation of Zakir Naik nor the explanation of the one you mention in your OP nor the explanation of anyone else I?ve read thus far. I have no clue what is meant by 42-3
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Who says they are among the forbidden? The socalled forbidden thing is written in (forbidden) because SOME translaters suggest that they must be forbidden since the verse before talks about who are forbidden. Mohasanat come from the root H-S-N, which some may describe some protected and some as good(from Hasan = good). But it has nothing to do with married women since marriage comes from the root Z-W-J which is a totally different word hence if married women were forbidden to marry it would be stated like this And forbidden for you is to marry a woman ALREADY MOTZAWJA with ONE. But thats not what is written. Thats the problem with pakistanis like you who dont know arabic and are let to guesswork through translations who are heavy influenced by the hadithers. So please stop to speak about what you dont have any knowledge about.
Hence there is no verse who says that a woman cannot have multiple husbands.Peace
Sorry to say sister but, but Z-W-J in The Quran is different from marriage.
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Sorry to say sister but, but Z-W-J in The Quran is different from marriage.
Okay so when quran mentions azwaj it does not have anything to do with marriage?
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is one of the Proxy Subject of feminine Passive Verb "Prohibited/sanctified are". That is the reason why it is in nominative case. And is definite as a specific sub-class of main category within/from amongst the women. And is Passive Participe, which refers to only such women upon whom the act present in the verb from which it was derived has since been done.
After the word "motzawaja" cannot be used.
In Arabic We say 'mara matzawja' when we refer to a married woman. Mohsanat does not mean married. Look at the topics where freeminds have discussed the meaning of the word which many claims to be independent. The root h-s-n had nothing to do with marriage. Since you dont know arabic it is hard for you to understand quran
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Salaam sister,
Maybe you didn?t notice my last sentence in my first response.
"Ps I? am only talking about that it?s forbidden for a woman to have 2 or more husbands at the same time, I? am not talking about how many wives a man can have."
Thus I was only talking about a woman with more then 1 husband.
Please read 2432-33 and 2235 InsjaAllah you will come now to the conclusion that it?s impossible for a woman to have two husbands at the same time or even in the subscribed time between 2 marriages.
Of course there is not a direct prohibition mention in The Quran but if you use a little bit of logic then it?s for sure not possible for a muslim woman to have 2 husbands or more at the same time, thus if it?s not possible for her according to the Quran and she still insists to marry a second husband, then she is doing something against what The Quran teaches, this is in my view doing something that is forbidden. If you still think after the verses that I gave you above that it is possible for her, then I? am sure you also think that a woman or a man can marry an animal and have sex with it. There is no verse in The Quran that forbids it directly.
It?s true that we are not allowed to forbid things what is not forbidden but preaching the other way around is also not good.
Please keep in mind verse 733, I think this verse says enough about some claims you did.If you mean 419 I see no reason why this verse is also applying for the women. Please read in The Quran what the relationship is between a man and his wife. I?m sure you all ready read it, but if not then please read mainly chapter 2221 and further, chapter 4, chapter 24 and chapter 65. In my understanding 419 is special for the men and not for the women. In my opinion you can?t reason here the other way around and say that this verse is also applying for woman. Because it is in my opinion different as for example 423. In 423 there is by force also a law for the woman in it and here it's not. I hope you understand what I mean.
Maybe you will say something like, that it?s thus allowed for a woman to inherit a man against his will acoording to 419, but then I will again refer you to the chapters I just mentioned to see what the relationship is between an man and a woman. Maybe I'm wrong but at this moment this is how I see it.Maybe there is also an option 3 We don?t understand the verse.
Well, at least for me there is this option 3. None of the explanations that I?ve read thus far convinced me. Not the explanation of Zakir Naik nor the explanation of the one you mention in your OP nor the explanation of anyone else I?ve read thus far. I have no clue what is meant by 42-
Why is it impossible for a woman to have two husbands ? I have looked at the verses you referred to and I cannot see any prohibiting of polyandry. You say that by using logic I will know that its impossible for a woman to have two husbands. But logically a woman needs multiple husbands more than a man. A woman has more complex sexual and emotional needs, and if one husband does not understand her fully she would have another husband who is more understandable. A woman also need more care in particular situations for instance during pregnancy hence if one husband does not have so much time for her, the other husbands would care for her and help her. And if the woman is poor she would be financially secured since if one husband divorce her she would still have three others to support her. Also polyandry prevent wife bashing and wife abuse since the woman would not be forced to live with a husband who mistreats her because she can easily divorce him and carry on with the other husbands. So as you can see polyandry can protect many women. Also should be noted the surplus of men in most countries(according to cia factbook there are more males then females in the marriageable age in most countries. Check it up in cia factbook).
On what logic do you base your assumption on 43 (the socalled polygyny verse) is directed only to males when Arabic masculine gender applies for both males and females ? What are the difference between a man having several wives and a woman having several husband's? Moreover yes quran does not mention that polyandry or animal sex is forbidden but I wonder how you can compare these two things hence you should compare a man with two wives with animal sex also. You don't marry animals and hence you cannot have sex with them since it would be adultry. A woman with 4 husband's is not commiting adultry since she is married with those HUMANS.PEACE
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Okay so when quran mentions azwaj it does not have anything to do with marriage?
Salaam sister,
Please read for example 2232 I think, especially you don?t want to take ZWJ here as a married person. If you take ZWJ as a married person then it would imply that a man can have more then 1 wife and a divorced woman can only marry a married man and in your OP you were against such an idea.
Please take a look at for example 3636 and
3857-58 ** to have a better understanding what ZWJ means in the Quran. -
Why is it impossible for a woman to have two husbands ? I have looked at the verses you referred to and I cannot see any prohibiting of polyandry. You say that by using logic I will know that its impossible for a woman to have two husbands. But logically a woman needs multiple husbands more than a man. A woman has more complex sexual and emotional needs, and if one husband does not understand her fully she would have another husband who is more understandable. A woman also need more care in particular situations for instance during pregnancy hence if one husband does not have so much time for her, the other husbands would care for her and help her. And if the woman is poor she would be financially secured since if one husband divorce her she would still have three others to support her. Also polyandry prevent wife bashing and wife abuse since the woman would not be forced to live with a husband who mistreats her because she can easily divorce him and carry on with the other husbands. So as you can see polyandry can protect many women. Also should be noted the surplus of men in most countries(according to cia factbook there are more males then females in the marriageable age in most countries. Check it up in cia factbook).
On what logic do you base your assumption on 43 (the socalled polygyny verse) is directed only to males when Arabic masculine gender applies for both males and females ? What are the difference between a man having several wives and a woman having several husband's? Moreover yes quran does not mention that polyandry or animal sex is forbidden but I wonder how you can compare these two things hence you should compare a man with two wives with animal sex also. You don't marry animals and hence you cannot have sex with them since it would be adultry. A woman with 4 husband's is not commiting adultry since she is married with those HUMANS.PEACE
This discussion is getting a little bit out of hand.
To each his/her understanding, but be careful about spreading false information in the name of Allah.My point is that you can make everything halal, even the craziest things. If I want to be stubborn, I can insist against every proof you bring me, no matter how hard you try.
Your whole statement is that YOU can?t find a direct prohibition in The Quran, thus you think it is ok. The verses I gave you and the others are forbidding it, but if you have a prejudiced stand, then you can?t see it or you don?t want to see it. -
Salaam sister,
Please read for example 2232 I think, especially you don?t want to take ZWJ here as a married person. If you take ZWJ as a married person then it would imply that a man can have more then 1 wife and a divorced woman can only marry a married man and in your OP you were against such an idea.
Please take a look at for example 3636 and
3857-58 ** to have a better understanding what ZWJ means in the Quran.ZWJ litterly means 'pair'. And when a woman and man joins together it is understood as they are married. The verse you gave me above deals with a woman who is divorced and wants to marry her former husbands. What has that do with how many husbands a woman can have??
A divorced woman can marry a single man if she likes him. I am asking you for a verse who tells us how many husbands wife can have. And you have yet failed to give me a verse who says how many husbands a wife can have. -
This discussion is getting a little bit out of hand.
To each his/her understanding, but be careful about spreading false information in the name of Allah.My point is that you can make everything halal, even the craziest things. If I want to be stubborn, I can insist against every proof you bring me, no matter how hard you try.
Your whole statement is that YOU can?t find a direct prohibition in The Quran, thus you think it is ok. The verses I gave you and the others are forbidding it, but if you have a prejudiced stand, then you can?t see it or you don?t want to see it.Well you are spreading false information in the name of Allah if you cannot prove from his words something. If you cant than just say honestly that you dont know since it is not written in the quran.
And what is crazy about a woman with multiple husbands? It is certainly not more crazy than a man having multiple wives. In my opinion it is you who is stubborn since you give me verses who do not say that a woman can only have one husband because similar verses exist in the quran to men as well, so if you think that polyandry is prohibited because of these verses than you have to ban polygyny as well since other verses also deals with a man who has only one wife, anything other would show you as being a hypocrite. Let me just show you some of these verses
41 O people, observe your Lord; the One who created you from one being, and created from it its mate, then spread from the two many men and women.
Point to be noted ONE MATE.
Surah 334 ?GOD did not give any man two hearts in his chest. Nor did He turn your wives whom you sideline as if they are (only) mothers for you. Nor did He turn your adopted children into genetic offspring. All these are mere utterances that you have invented. GOD speaks the truth, and He guides in the (right) path.?
Point to be noted God did not give a man two hearts hence he cannot give him two marriages either.
So could we take the story of Adam And Eve. Point to be noted Adam And Eve only. Not Adam and Eve, And Fatima and zahra and khadija and aisha and and and..
Now if you are not a hypocrite, if you dont like polyandry you should dislike polygyny as well since similar verses of what you quoted regarding women can be found regarding men as well. So all your fantasies about how a woman should behave is just baseless.
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ZWJ litterly means 'pair'. And when a woman and man joins together it is understood as they are married. The verse you gave me above deals with a woman who is divorced and wants to marry her former husbands.
Salaam sister,
Former husbands? Maybe its just me but I really cant see where you got that former husbands from. I cant see it in 2232 maybe you are confused it with 2230.
What has that do with how many husbands a woman can have??
Nothing, but if you take as your definition for ZWJ "a married person" then 2232 is telling the woman to marry a married man. Please see you own post reply #56 were you gave this definition. I think the definition you gave in this post is better pair.
I have for ZWJ as definition counterpart(s), maybe not the best definition but I think its not contradicting any verse were ZWJ is mentioned.A divorced woman can marry a single man if she likes him. I am asking you for a verse who tells us how many husbands wife can have.
And you have yet failed to give me a verse who says how many husbands a wife can have.I gave you all ready the verses, its up to you how to interpret them.
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Well you are spreading false information in the name of Allah if you cannot prove from his words something. If you cant than just say honestly that you dont know since it is not written in the quran.
If I understood the verses in The Quran wrong about this subject then insjaAlah Allah will forgive me for that. For me it?s crystal clear that polyandry is not allowed. I?m not sure about polygyny, I have to study it more, there are certain words and verses that I don?t understand. Till that time I have no opinion about it. I repeat, maybe it's for you or for someone else not clear that polyandry is not allowed but for ME it's crystal clear that it is not allowed
And what is crazy about a woman with multiple husbands? It is certainly not more crazy than a man having multiple wives. In my opinion it is you who is stubborn since you give me verses who do not say that a woman can only have one husband because similar verses exist in the quran to men as well, so if you think that polyandry is prohibited because of these verses than you have to ban polygyny as well since other verses also deals with a man who has only one wife, anything other would show you as being a hypocrite.
Hypocrite ??? Because we don?t share the same opinion? InsjaAllah, Allah doesn?t see me as a hypocrite.
Point to be noted God did not give a man two hearts hence he cannot give him two marriages either.
This is not more then your interpretation?
So could we take the story of Adam And Eve. Point to be noted Adam And Eve only. Not Adam and Eve, And Fatima and zahra and khadija and aisha and and and..
it is telling that you took those 2 verses as your evidence, while you ignore the evidences you were given about polyandry.
I understand that you have trouble with believing in polygyny but I don't understand why they have to be both forbidden or both to be allowed. It could be that both are not possible and it could be that one of them is allowed. There are are many examples in The Quran were the women have other laws then men why not for this one? Again, before you judge me as a hypocrite, for me it's clear that polyandry is not allowed but i'm still not sure about polygyny.Now if you are not a hypocrite, if you dont like polyandry you should dislike polygyny as well since similar verses of what you quoted regarding women can be found regarding men as well. So all your fantasies about how a woman should behave is just baseless.
My fantasies? What are you talking about? I only gave you verses from The Quran where in my view polyandry is not possible.
Sorry if you took my messages the wrong way, may Allah lead us all to the sirat almustakiem.
ps this is my last message here in this thread.salaam