Polygyny - a new understanding from Quran?
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Peace Brother Bender, You are right. ZWJ means counterpart. But isn't that what marriage is about?
If I understood the verses in The Quran wrong about this subject then insjaAlah Allah will forgive me for that. For me it?s crystal clear that polyandry is not allowed. I?m not sure about polygyny, I have to study it more, there are certain words and verses that I don?t understand. Till that time I have no opinion about it. I repeat, maybe it's for you or for someone else not clear that polyandry is not allowed but for ME it's crystal clear that it is not allowed
I cannot see why polyandry shall not be allowed. I still study and I have yet not come to any verse in the quran which prohibits polyandry. Here we disagree. The verse 2230 does not mention how many husbands a woman can have. It says that if a man wants to get his wife back she has to marry someone else. A woman has 4 husbands. 1 of them divorce her and he wants her back. Than she would marry one more husband and when HE divorce she can go back to the husband before.
This is not more then your interpretation?
Mate is mate. There is nothing to interpret here.
it is telling that you took those 2 verses as your evidence, while you ignore the evidences you were given about polyandry
Try to look at verse 2431 tells us that the single persons should marry. So this shows us that a married man and a married woman cannot marry since they are not single.
but I don't understand why they have to be both forbidden or both to be allowed. It could be that both are not possible and it could be that one of them is allowed.
Because it does not make sense to prohibt one and permit one. Its like saying that americans can eat pork but the germans cannot. It does not make sense. Gods rules are for everyone and applies for everyone
There are are many examples in The Quran were the women have other laws then men why not for this one?
Which laws are you talking about brother? I cannot see any law especially for men and another law especially for women. You must understand that women are humans like you. Every human shall follow the same law. There are no logical or quranic reason for discriminate between humans.
Peace
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Which laws are you talking about brother? I cannot see any law especially for men and another law especially for women. You must understand that women are humans like you. Every human shall follow the same law. There are no logical or quranic reason for discriminate between humans.
PeaceSalaam sister
I beg to differ. There are laws especially, or directed towards the individual gender. Dress code for example. The law directed towards your gender should be for your gender only and interpreted by your gender only. That is equality to me. The other gender should keep their mouth shut. I for one would not like a woman to tell me I am guarding my modesty wrong. What does she know about a man's modesty? Sounds a bit childish I know but that is the way I see it.
In my opinion the subject in question should be interpreted in this way
When searching the Quran for guidance in the relation woman to man there is no Quranic evidence of a clear violation of Allah's law to allow polyandry.
When searching the Quran for guidance in the relation man to woman there is clear Quranic evidence that a man is not allowed to marry an already married woman.Just because it is forbidden for a man to marry an already married woman does not automatically forbid polyandry. That is like saying just because I cannot have any ice cream nobody can.....There is no reason to forbid polyandry, that law is completely unnecessary. It only creates inequality issues.
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Peace,
"That is equality to me. The other gender should keep their mouth shut. I for one would not like a woman to tell me I am guarding my modesty wrong. What does she know about a man's modesty? Sounds a bit childish I know but that is the way I see it."
You may regret these words in future. We are open to examination and judgement by all. Do you think a person of prophetic character would say or see it in such a way? Investigate further...
Who is the benchmark by which we know man has guarded his eyes? The ultimate judgement of God foremost but in the here and now women know best. Likewise, how do we know if a woman has truly veiled her breasts for the sake of modesty and nothing else if no men are around to judge?
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In my opinion the subject in question should be interpreted in this way
When searching the Quran for guidance in the relation woman to man there is no Quranic evidence of a clear violation of Allah's law to allow polyandry.
When searching the Quran for guidance in the relation man to woman there is clear Quranic evidence that a man is not allowed to marry an already married woman.Just because it is forbidden for a man to marry an already married woman does not automatically forbid polyandry. That is like saying just because I cannot have any ice cream nobody can.....There is no reason to forbid polyandry, that law is completely unnecessary. It only creates inequality issues.
Practibility???? Where would she find another man to play as her second husband?
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Peace,
"That is equality to me. The other gender should keep their mouth shut. I for one would not like a woman to tell me I am guarding my modesty wrong. What does she know about a man's modesty? Sounds a bit childish I know but that is the way I see it."
You may regret these words in future. We are open to examination and judgement by all. Do you think a person of prophetic character would say or see it in such a way? Investigate further...
Who is the benchmark by which we know man has guarded his eyes? The ultimate judgement of God foremost but in the here and now women know best. Likewise, how do we know if a woman has truly veiled her breasts for the sake of modesty and nothing else if no men are around to judge?
Dear OPF
Of course you are right and I know it.....In my defence I wrote I was being childish peace
The point is that we should not judge without knowing. I get a little upset when, for example, a woman veils herself in the belief that I cannot control myself if she shows herself. Allah has told me to guard my modesty and I stick to it. Women could be walking around naked for all I care, Allah has told me to guard MY modesty.
A woman has all the right to veil herself if she wants to. I totally respect that and I think it is her choice to make entirely. But when she does it to protect MY modesty I say "girl, don't confuse your modesty with mine."Practibility???? Where would she find another man to play as her second husband?
Exactly my point. Polyandry does not need to be forbidden because the law says men cannot marry married women. The guilt is put on the man, not the woman. IOW, if a woman marries two men she is not to be blamed but the men.
Reminds me of a law of my country which alot of people find strange. Prostitution is legal but paying money for sex is illegal. Sounds strange but makes sense.
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I get a little upset when, for example, a woman veils herself in the belief that I cannot control myself if she shows herself. Allah has told me to guard my modesty and I stick to it. Women could be walking around naked for all I care, Allah has told me to guard MY modesty.
A woman has all the right to veil herself if she wants to. I totally respect that and I think it is her choice to make entirely. But when she does it to protect MY modesty I say "girl, don't confuse your modesty with mine."She could doubt about presence of some "systen operational fault". The built-in system is automatic. Precautionary measures are suggested which help avoid inciting or propmting the system to become operative.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/012.%20Yusuf%20alahissalam/12.24.gif
And indeed she had made herself determined for him;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/012.%20Yusuf%20alahissalam/12.24a.gif
And he might have inclined/floated in passion with her had it been not so that he had seen with his own eyes the proof of his Sustainer Lord.1223 onwards
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"But when she does it to protect MY modesty I say "girl, don't confuse your modesty with mine.""
Good point! As is Mazhar's. Keep the knife away from the psychopath but also, keep the potential murder victim away.
Peace
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Dear Emil
Polyandry does not need to be forbidden because the law says men cannot marry married women.
Where does the Quran say that men cannot marry married women?
And you speak about the 'different' dress code in order to justify the sexual inequality which you support? First of all, I cannot see any different dress code for women in the quran, the only thing I can see is that both are required to dress up modest with a special emphasize on the female bossoms. But being a swedish resident myself I know that if you walk on the street in Stockholm without a shirt and hence show your breasts as a man - MOST SWEDISH PEOPLE WOULD NOT CONSIDER YOU AS BEING DRESSED UP MODEST!
Secondly you can not opress women just because their bossoms have been emphasized in the quran. First of all, because a female body contain other things than a male body. But when it comes to marriage and eating habits and so on, you cannot discriminate between the sexes because they both get married, eat, drink, pray etc. making different rules for the genders in the same excately act is unfair, unlogic and unquranic. And if you insist upon making different gender rules for marriage than you have to make different punishment rules as well. For instanes if you allow a man to have 4 wives and a woman to have only one husband than you cannot punish a woman for adultery with lashes like a man - because the woman did not had the same possibility to sexual variety like a man. Therefore it would be unfair to punish her with the same punishment as a man. Than you have to decrease the punishment 4 times for her in some way, since she did not have the same possibility as a man. You can only use the same methode of punishment on people who had had same possibiblites and were under same laws everything else would be unfair and a open hetz against women.Secondly polyandry is as bad/good as polygyny. Polyandry can protect motherless children as polygyny can protect fatherless children and polyandry can be (mis)used by women for having multiple partners just like polygyny can be (mis)used for having multiple partners. I think its the latter people fear regarding polyandry which make people so obsessed with prohibiting polyandry and not polygyny. However there are no quranic reason for prohibiting polyandry.
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Dear Emil
Where does the Quran say that men cannot marry married women?I always saw 423-24 as including married women.
And you speak about the 'different' dress code in order to justify the sexual inequality which you support? First of all, I cannot see any different dress code for women in the quran, the only thing I can see is that both are required to dress up modest with a special emphasize on the female bossoms. But being a swedish resident myself I know that if you walk on the street in Stockholm without a shirt and hence show your breasts as a man - MOST SWEDISH PEOPLE WOULD NOT CONSIDER YOU AS BEING DRESSED UP MODEST!
Secondly you can not opress women just because their bossoms have been emphasized in the quran. First of all, because a female body contain other things than a male body. But when it comes to marriage and eating habits and so on, you cannot discriminate between the sexes because they both get married, eat, drink, pray etc. making different rules for the genders in the same excately act is unfair, unlogic and unquranic. And if you insist upon making different gender rules for marriage than you have to make different punishment rules as well. For instanes if you allow a man to have 4 wives and a woman to have only one husband than you cannot punish a woman for adultery with lashes like a man - because the woman did not had the same possibility to sexual variety like a man. Therefore it would be unfair to punish her with the same punishment as a man. Than you have to decrease the punishment 4 times for her in some way, since she did not have the same possibility as a man. You can only use the same methode of punishment on people who had had same possibiblites and were under same laws everything else would be unfair and a open hetz against women.Secondly polyandry is as bad/good as polygyny. Polyandry can protect motherless children as polygyny can protect fatherless children and polyandry can be (mis)used by women for having multiple partners just like polygyny can be (mis)used for having multiple partners. I think its the latter people fear regarding polyandry which make people so obsessed with prohibiting polyandry and not polygyny. However there are no quranic reason for prohibiting polyandry.
Yes, sister I see a difference in dress code between men and women. Actually the term "dress code" is a bit misleading. Because sister, if you want my opinion I think that what we refer to as "dress code" has absolutely nothing to do with garments. Just like you said, walking down a street in Stockholm without a shirt on is considered indecent, more for the man than woman (no, really, think about it).
We all come from different cultures and there is no way in he...hrm that a piece of garment would make us all modest. An American indian would probably think we get more sexy wearing a hijab than showing that ugly blonde hair, so the hijab is a no-go there. Covering your breast, what good is that in a society where nobody has ever covered their breasts? You know back in 15th century Europe the sexiest thing a woman could do was to lift up her skirt a little so the guys could drool over their ankles? So covering the breasts were kinda redundant.
It has nothing to do with clothes, it has to do about how we act. And because boys and girsl act differently we need different rules for modesty.
As a man I cannot answer what guidance there is for a woman. My opinion however is that Allah is telling her that she cannot use her favourable looks to get ahead in life, she must depend on who she is, her personality, her heart.
Allah's dress code for men is similar but not the same. He is telling us to look at the woman as a person, not as tits and ass. But he knows we are weak and asks us to remove OURSELVES from temptation if there is a need for it. Can't stand the heat? get out of the kitchen.You want my opinion about covering up? I think it is ridicilous and nobody would be more happy than me if all muslim women would stop dressing in a certain way because that is what they think Allah wants.
You want my interpretation about how a man should keep their modesty? Eventhough a woman is wearing a damn niqaab or bikini, I must see them as human beings and look beyond whatever clothes they wear. I must strive to see them, their personality, their heart.So the dress code is different. Woman do not use your power and protect your modesty. Man protect your modesty and do not fall for temptation. Again I must stress the point that whenever Allah turns to you as a female I cannot really claim to have an interpretation or answer. All I have is an opinion, I gave you mine without you asking, and if you want me to stop I will.
And yes, I agree with you about polyandry. My argument was neither pro or con. Like I said before I support you in principal. My motion was simply an argument not to blame the wrong person.
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I always saw 423-24 as including married women.
Yes, sister I see a difference in dress code between men and women. Actually the term "dress code" is a bit misleading. Because sister, if you want my opinion I think that what we refer to as "dress code" has absolutely nothing to do with garments. Just like you said, walking down a street in Stockholm without a shirt on is considered indecent, more for the man than woman (no, really, think about it).
We all come from different cultures and there is no way in he...hrm that a piece of garment would make us all modest. An American indian would probably think we get more sexy wearing a hijab than showing that ugly blonde hair, so the hijab is a no-go there. Covering your breast, what good is that in a society where nobody has ever covered their breasts? You know back in 15th century Europe the sexiest thing a woman could do was to lift up her skirt a little so the guys could drool over their ankles? So covering the breasts were kinda redundant.
It has nothing to do with clothes, it has to do about how we act. And because boys and girsl act differently we need different rules for modesty.
As a man I cannot answer what guidance there is for a woman. My opinion however is that Allah is telling her that she cannot use her favourable looks to get ahead in life, she must depend on who she is, her personality, her heart.
Allah's dress code for men is similar but not the same. He is telling us to look at the woman as a person, not as tits and ass. But he knows we are weak and asks us to remove OURSELVES from temptation if there is a need for it. Can't stand the heat? get out of the kitchen.You want my opinion about covering up? I think it is ridicilous and nobody would be more happy than me if all muslim women would stop dressing in a certain way because that is what they think Allah wants.
You want my interpretation about how a man should keep their modesty? Eventhough a woman is wearing a damn niqaab or bikini, I must see them as human beings and look beyond whatever clothes they wear. I must strive to see them, their personality, their heart.So the dress code is different. Woman do not use your power and protect your modesty. Man protect your modesty and do not fall for temptation. Again I must stress the point that whenever Allah turns to you as a female I cannot really claim to have an interpretation or answer. All I have is an opinion, I gave you mine without you asking, and if you want me to stop I will.
And yes, I agree with you about polyandry. My argument was neither pro or con. Like I said before I support you in principal. My motion was simply an argument to blame the wrong person.
Wao. Really good points brother Emil. Thanks for letting me see modesty beyond garmants. And i actually agree with you. Modesty have more to do with how We act than how We wear.
But 423-24 does not say that you cannot marry a married woman. What it says is that god has decreed modest/chaste woman for you in marriage.
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The Arabic word "mu'santu " can be used to mean guarded , protected, chaste, etc
Thus , Sura 424 can be translated as
And the already protected from the women, except those committed to you by oath; God's scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.muhsantu mina l-nisi = protected women
In context with Sura 423 "muhsantu" ( in Sura 424) CANNOT mean chaste (or independent women) .
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your fathers' sisters, your mothers' sisters,.......
424 The chaste(or independent) women, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
chaste Abstaining from all sexual intercourse; celibate, virgin
independent can be chaste, divorced, widows , free unmarried womenQuestion How can God forbid the marriage of chaste and independent women???? Is everyone seeing where I'm getting at. If we can't marry free women then who can we marry slaves and prostitutes???
Hence,
Protected women MUST be interpreted as MARRIED WOMEN in Sura 424. This is why most translators interpret 'muhsantu mina l-nisi ' to mean 'married women'.Since men are forbidden from marrying 'married women ' (or protected women) 'Polyandry ' is forbidden.
But 423-24 does not say that you cannot marry a married woman. What it says is that god has decreed modest/chaste woman for you in marriage.
Absolutely not. This would mean that God forbids women who men have contractual rights to. Here's a better example of what you're saying
424 And the already protected from the women (you say chaste and independent women permitted) , except those committed to you by oath ( means that women who men have oaths/contracts to are forbidden); God's scripture is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
The above example is a result of your interpretation. There is no logic in it.
Peace,
Kevin
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Kevin I am sorry to say it, but you understand nothing
Mohsanaat means chaste. The quran 424 says'' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....''
Conclusion god wants muslin men (and women) to choose chaste partners.
Peace
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Kevin I am sorry to say it, but you understand nothing
Mohsanaat means chaste. The quran 424 says'' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....''
Conclusion god wants muslin men (and women) to choose chaste partners.
Peace
Where is "iilla ma malakat aymanukum"???? (which means "except those who you posses (oaths or contractual rights) This phrase '' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....'' how did you get that from "iilla ma malakat aymanukum" ??? Where is this phrase '' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....'' in the Quran? Show it to me in Arabic.
Peace,
Kevin -
Kevin I am sorry to say it, but you understand nothing
Mohsanaat means chaste. The quran 424 says'' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....''
Conclusion god wants muslin men (and women) to choose chaste partners.
Peace
A person posing oneself to be an Arab could translate first sentence of 424 like this in line with her or his preconceived notion.
After narrating women by quoting relationships, the permissible ones are only who are apart from those mentioned before which includes .
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A person posing oneself to be an Arab could translate first sentence of 424 like this in line with her or his preconceived notion.
After narrating women by quoting relationships, the permissible ones are only who are apart from those mentioned before which includes .
People who willfully hide and twist the scripture are hypocrites. We can't stop them from doing it. We can only sympathize and reason with them while we are alive and laugh at them in the hereafter. I'm waiting for the laughing part.
Peace,
Kevin
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Why are translated as Married women?
A woman is called married when Nikah has taken place.
This places them in this stateh
Yes the chaste (mohsanat) women can be married when nikah has taken place after the consent with their family as you can see in surah noor where the chaste mohsanat are mentioned again as someone you shall marry. and of course this applies for women also. women shall marry chaste men as well with the permission of the mens family and not unchaste men who sleeps around.
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Where is "iilla ma malakat aymanukum"???? (which means "except those who you posses (oaths or contractual rights) This phrase '' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....'' how did you get that from "iilla ma malakat aymanukum" ??? Where is this phrase '' the chaste women who are legally yours have God decreed for you and permitted for you....'' in the Quran? Show it to me in Arabic.
Peace,
KevinHello brother kevin. Why are you making this simple verse so complicated? Verse 423 tells us who we cannot marry. The second verse 424 tells us who We shall marry instead - the chaste women. Let me clearify mohsanat(chaste women) who are rightfully yours/posses in oath (ma malakat aymanakum) have God decreed for you in marriage (kitab).
You see the verse is very easy.
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Salam,
Interesting thread indeed. Some people just cant see the difference between reasoning and spilling out their ego asking dumb questions over and over again. I challenge such people to give me a verse from the Qur'an where Allah says that he is not the Ipad.
By the way, I am aware that this would contradict many statements in Qur'an but just submit a verse where directly Allah says that "I am not the Ipad" or "We are not the Ipad"/etc. No indirect logical deduction by study of relevant verses is allowed. ONLY evidence from ayaat of Allah telling you open and explicity using the word Ipad that Allah is not the Ipad.
I swear I am not drunk.
PEACE
--------------------------- Student of Allah