Maybe I'm wrong: Desperate god
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Hi,
Sura 2 Verse 30 to 33.
And when thy Lord said unto the angels, ?Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth?. They said, ?Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee??. He said, ?Surely I know that which ye know not?. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying, ?Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.? They said, ?Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.? He said, ?O Adam! Inform them of their names?, and when he had informed them of their names, He said, ?Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide??.In his attempt to counter angels' question, Allah had acted desperately by teaching Adam 'names' but not to angels. Allah's aimed was to prove to angels that he know better than them. After Adam graduated, Allah asked angels and Adam to sit for a test and the questions are about the 'names' which he taught only to Adam. Adam passed with flying color but the angels suffered failure. With this Allah had resumed his position as the Knower and the Wise.
However, I think angels' arguments about human doing harm and shed blood are true and they seems to know better than Allah. Maybe I'm wrong but one thing I'm sure about this story is that Allah himself not being fair to the angels. Is it fair for student who has not learnt about Quran being asked to sit for Quran's test paper?
True way of life base on two things TRUTH and JUSTICE. This is one of the injustices found in Quran teaching. I might be wrong and appreciate if members here able to show me the truth.
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Hi,
Sura 2 Verse 30 to 33.
And when thy Lord said unto the angels, ?Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth?. They said, ?Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee??. He said, ?Surely I know that which ye know not?. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying, ?Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.? They said, ?Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.? He said, ?O Adam! Inform them of their names?, and when he had informed them of their names, He said, ?Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide??.In his attempt to counter angels' question, Allah had acted desperately by teaching Adam 'names' but not to angels. Allah's aimed was to prove to angels that he know better than them. After Adam graduated, Allah asked angels and Adam to sit for a test and the questions are about the 'names' which he taught only to Adam. Adam passed with flying color but the angels suffered failure. With this Allah had resumed his position as the Knower and the Wise.
However, I think angels' arguments about human doing harm and shed blood are true and they seems to know better than Allah. Maybe I'm wrong but one thing I'm sure about this story is that Allah himself not being fair to the angels. Is it fair for student who has not learnt about Quran being asked to sit for Quran's test paper?
True way of life base on two things TRUTH and JUSTICE. This is one of the injustices found in Quran teaching. I might be wrong and appreciate if members here able to show me the truth.
Angels don't know better than God. Nobody does. God knows what you do not know and you cannot compare God to man. God knew that there would be people deserving to be vicegerents on earth. So he created the world as a test to separate the appreciative of his creations from the unappreciative. The 'appreciative' will receive the best of his creations in the hereafter and the 'unappreciative' will receive the worst since they choose not to acknowledge his countless/ limitless signs . God doesn't commit any injustice. If a person goes to hell it will be because they did injustice to others as well as themselves.
1422 The devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."
The people who are cast into hell are the ones who had all the means to follow God but didn't do so. Those who didn't have the means will enter paradise (this can include babies, young children, and other people who didn't have the means ). God is a Merciful god and not a mindless barbarian . No one in the hereafter will be treated unjustly.
Peace,
Kevin.
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However, I think angels' arguments about human doing harm and shed blood are true and they seems to know better than Allah. Maybe I'm wrong but one thing I'm sure about this story is that Allah himself not being fair to the angels. Is it fair for student who has not learnt about Quran being asked to sit for Quran's test paper?
This is not the case. The basic principle behind the Quran is to worship and give thanks to "GOD ALONE" and to do good deeds. So basically a person who have never heard of the Quran but believes in God alone and does good deeds will surely enter paradise. Everyone knows that God exists. Even the atheists. They're just to arrogant to acknowledge it.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
Everyone is born with the ability to infer an Almighty Creator. So no one who had the means to follow God Alone can come in the hereafter and say 'we were not aware of this'
Peace,
Kevin.
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Fun fact, serve, not worship
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Shalom,
My thoughts on the matter
- God created monkeys
- Monkeys evolved to pre-Adam state (possibly wild beast type in nature)
- God announced the next version of evolution (Adam).
- Angels asked why God bothered to evolve just another monkey
- God informed that they do not understand the features of the new breed of monkey.
- God demonstrated to the angels that "look, this monkey is pretty smart".
This is how I understood the ayaats regarding Adam and angels. It was not Adam vs Angels that was the point of God, it was the demonstration of the power of evolution. While the angels with their limited knowledge were underestimating man, God knew that the next stage of evolution will be one of the most remarkable phase of transition. It was never about a competition of Adam and Angels.
PEACE
----------------------------- Student of Allah -
So basically a person who have never heard of the Quran but believes in God alone and does good deeds will surely enter paradise.
Fair enough. I assumed the 'believer' and 'unbeliever' status will take place right after a person decided whether to follow or not to follow Quran after he read and understood what the teaching is all about.
I'm somewhere in the 'read and understand' mode and having difficulty to digest the idea that god can't think of better speech or way to calm the angels down and, end up, has to create the 'names test' which to me is very unfair to the angels. This sort of story not promoting God's supremacy and power. Maybe I'm wrong but hitherto, I'm doubt God Himself wrote this story.
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This is how I understood the ayaats regarding Adam and angels. It was not Adam vs Angels that was the point of God, it was the demonstration of the power of evolution. While the angels with their limited knowledge were underestimating man, God knew that the next stage of evolution will be one of the most remarkable phase of transition. It was never about a competition of Adam and Angels.
Thanks for your thoughts. Modern world yet to witness this monkey-to-human evolution.
My earlier post was about the class or standard of the story itself. The god don't look wise in that story.
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Thanks for your thoughts. Modern world yet to witness this monkey-to-human evolution.
My earlier post was about the class or standard of the story itself. The god don't look wise in that story.
Shalom,
Of course God wasn't looking wise from the way you see the story. Thus I bothered to share my thoughts, it was never about Angels vs Man. God was simply demonstrating to the angels that he had advance knowledge of the successor of the monkeys which can outsmart even the angels. He did not set up an exam of "Angel vs Man" rather, that was his response to what the angels wanted to know from him in 230.
Angels "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?"
God "I know what ye know not."
Not to keep the angels in the dark, God provides detailed explanation in 231-33
231 And He taught Adam the names of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said "Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of their names," so when he informed them of their names, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding?God thus brings the angels back to that point where he said that He knows what they do not know by demonstrating that Man isnt just a monkey anymore. I dont know where you got the idea of God willing to go for Angel vs Man examination. For example, if you say that free-minds website is bad (atleast in comparison to your website) , so I should not use it. Then if I tell you the reason I use it is because I know what you do not know. Then I take you to the website and give you a comparative analysis of the website with your favorable website and successfully demonstrate that it is indeed a better website than what you originally "assumed" it would be. How exactly am I the one that is unwise ????? I did not bring you to free-minds website all of a sudden and compare it with your website just for my ego, I did it to inform you that your comment about the site that you made is not ok. Same goes for what happened between God, the angels and man.
I hope that it clarifies my understanding.
PEACE
----------------------- Student of Allah -
However, I think angels' arguments about human doing harm and shed blood are true and they seems to know better than Allah. Maybe I'm wrong but one thing I'm sure about this story is that Allah himself not being fair to the angels. Is it fair for student who has not learnt about Quran being asked to sit for Quran's test paper?
Hello and welcome ,
I believe that you took it totally wrong.
230
230 And your Lord said to the angels "I am placing a successor on the earth." They said "Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You?" He said "I know what you do not know."1- "And your Lord said to the angels "I am placing a khalifa on the earth"..." Why Allah share this info with the angels if He is unfair?
2- "...They said "Will you place in it he who would make corruption in it and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You?"...." How angels came to know that human will make corruption on earth and spill blood. Are they knowledgeable for unseen? NO! But Allah told them, WHY? if He is unfair? Look carefully what the angels want here.. and why they said "we praise by Your glory and exalt to You"? I think that they want themselves to be placed on earth instead of human.
3- "...He said "I know what you do not know" What is wrong if a Knower of unseen says that?
231
231 And He taught Adam the names of all things, then He displayed them to the angels and said "Inform Me of the names of these if you are truthful."232
232 They said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Judge."1- "They said "Glory to You, we have no knowledge..." They admitted that they don't have knowledge and they don't felt bad or unfairness from Allah on this but they praise Allah saying that You are the Knowledgeable, the Judge.
2- "...except that which you have taught us..." Where is Allah unfair, He taught them also about something. Even they were taught about the future that humans will do corruption on earth and spill blood.. Who taught them?
233
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of their names," so when he informed them of their names, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding?"1- "He said "O Adam, inform them of their names," so when he informed them of their names..." I personally understand that here Allah wanted to show the angels that Adam can learn fast so here is an example... so, they will not only do corruption and spill blood by they will learn how to praise Allah by His glory, and exalt to Him as you do.
2- "...He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth,..." Here Allah clarifies the angels that they know very little but Allah knows the unseen of the heavens and the earth.
3- "...and that I know what you reveal and what you are hiding?" What does this mean? Why Allah said that He know what they reveal and what they are hiding? This is the concept to understand. Please look at point no.2 under 230 above. And being the Knower Allah knows what they were hiding.
Hence there is nothing unfair to the angels but you have taken is completely wrong.
May Allah guide us all to His true path and increase us all in knowledge pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
This is not the case. The basic principle behind the Quran is to worship and give thanks to "GOD ALONE" and to do good deeds. So basically a person who have never heard of the Quran but believes in God alone and does good deeds will surely enter paradise. Everyone knows that God exists. Even the atheists. They're just to arrogant to acknowledge it.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.Everyone is born with the ability to infer an Almighty Creator. So no one who had the means to follow God Alone can come in the hereafter and say 'we were not aware of this'
Peace,
Kevin.Peace Kevin peace
I think a profound example is an athiest in a catastrophic crisis (e.g sinking ship, crashing blane, earthquake etc), and you start praying to the Almighty & pr. I know this for a fact because even when i was still agnostic, and went on an airplane, i even prayed laugh~ Blessed is his Most Blessed, Supreme, High Majesty, YHWH, for answering His servants' prayers ~
~ Hallel YAH! ~ -
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
To be sincere, I really can't remember I had made such witness. It is not right for someone to be punished for something he/she did under unconscious state. Furthermore, being a human and born into this world are not my choices.
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To be sincere, I really can't remember I had made such witness. It is not right for someone to be punished for something he/she did under unconscious state. Furthermore, being a human and born into this world are not my choices.
No. What this verse ( 7172) is saying brother is that every person has the ability to infer an Almighty Creator. No one not even the atheist who claim to say that they don?t believe in God deep down are capable of believing in God or already do but are too arrogant to admit to it.
7172 When your Lord took from the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this
7173 Nor can you say, "It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?"
7174 We thus explain the signs, perhaps they will return.
Yes being a human and being born into this earth MAY not have been your choice . You cannot say what happened to you prior to being born. You cannot say what choices you may or may not have made. But one choice is certain in the Quran. You said ?Yes we/I bear witness?. So willingly in the ?Land of souls? you took God as your God. You put yourself at his control. You cannot blame God for your choices.
Peace,
Kevin.
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No. What this verse ( 7172) is saying brother is that every person has the ability to infer an Almighty Creator.
I agree with you on this statement but that's maybe due to I was raised in a family and society that believe in God. Also maybe because I'm not rich and have all that I wanted. These are the strong factors that make me want to believe that there is The Almighty out there watching and protecting me against any harm and injustice.
Things might be different if I don't experienced living in God-believe family and society and not in the current state.
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Salam,
You experiences wouldn't matter. Abraham lived in a time without any monotheistic religion and his people were all idol worshippers but God chose and guided him because he wanted to know God. It doesn't matter where or what circumstance anyone is in. If they really want to know God, He will respond to them.
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You experiences wouldn't matter. Abraham lived in a time without any monotheistic religion and his people were all idol worshippers but God chose and guided him because he wanted to know God. It doesn't matter where or what circumstance anyone is in. If they really want to know God, He will respond to them.
Experience does matter as it will enrich wisdom. Abraham brought up in a gods-believe society and his ability to infer god maybe influenced by his upbringing. For someone being indoctrinated with the idea of 'no-god' since the day he or she was born, the ability to infer god may not be there. You know what, the society I'm living in consists of Islam, Buddha, Hindu, Christian and Taoism. The followers of these ideologies do want to know god and I don't think god responded to them as what you had quoted. That's the reason why they still worshiping their ancestors' god or gods.
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Our "experiences" and where and when we are born are already preordained by God. See 698 and 5722. It's part of the Test.
Your upbringing does not influence your desire to know God unless you choose to let it and choose to follow your society and parents blindly. Thats part of the test too.
Whoever chooses or wants to know the Truth about God, He will respond to them, no matter what their experiences or upbringing is. Thats His decree and Promise. The worlds influence has no power over anyone unless they choose to let it.
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Salam,
I just want you to know I speak from "experience". I grew up in a Christian family and a Christian culture. Even today, 99.99% of my family, friends, co-workers and everyone I know and meet are not even Believers, never mind Believers in God alone. I "wanted" to know God 17+ years ago and He led me to Quranist Islam way back then, even before I had a computer or the internet! Explain that?
Brother, you are giving "the world" and its influence Power it does not have. Our families, culture and upbringing are only invitations to disbelieve and stray from God. People can freely choose to not accept the invitation, but 99.99% of the world will. Thats Mankinds test.
All our lives and experiences, especially adversity, are opportunities and invitations from God to call on Him and return to Him. It's just a sad fact that most people in the world ignore God, dont really want to know Him, won't turn to Him and most will turn to Idols instead so they will forever remain unguided and unknowing of God. Its sad, but just a fact God teaches us in the Quran.
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A2Z..
This story has a 'deeper meanings' you should also read the section in 1860-82 which relate Moses and "one of Our servant".. as it has the same theme..
Please also put into consideration that the way God communicate with Angels might not 'literally' through speaking / talking or exchanging audio sounds... But it's described as such for better human understanding. The notion or conception of "naming" / "making a symbolic reference towards a concept or thing through audio sound/signal" might be something which is very unique to homo sapiens.
Salam / Peace