:: Ramadhan Fasting or .....? ::
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Salaam,
Ramadhan, is it really related to abstaining? If so, abstaining what? Lets take a close look at the aayaats in relation, inshaAllah.
Saum = abstention
Siyaam = plural of Saum2183
2183 O you who have believed, prescribed upon you is AlSiyaam as it was prescribed upon those before you that you may become righteous.When we read 2183, we miss the key point from it always. It has been highlighted above. The key point is "As it was prescribed upon those before you"
Why Allah said this to us in AlQuraan? What could be the possible reason? The answer is, it is said for guiding us to know what "Saum" really means.
1926
1926 So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to human.' "-
Why is this aayat starts with "So EAT and DRINK..."?
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Just to show you that Saum has nothing to do with EATING and DRINKING.
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Why are the words "Kuli wa Ishrabi" is used in the above aayat?
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Just to relate with 2187 with the same words "Kuloo wa Ishraboo" to understand the concept of Saum clearly and correctly by relating aayaats.
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How 1926 describes us what Saum really means?
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It is very very clearly mentioned in 1926 that during Saum you can eat and drink and DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE. This is how it was prescribed to Maryam who was before us as mentioned in 2183
After understanding the part above, lets check if it tallies all the Saum related aayaats, with the permission of Our Lord, TheCreator TheMaker TheDesigner of all of us.
2183
2183 O you who have believed, prescribed upon you is AlSiyaam as it was prescribed upon those before you that you may become righteous.Yaa ayyuh al-lazeena aamanu = O you who accepted / agreed . Other points has been discussed above already.
2184
2184 a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of days. And upon those who are able - a ransom of feeding a poor person. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew.Ayyaaman m'adoodaatin is already been discussed in other threads. To my understanding it is only three days.
What abstaining has to do with illness and journey in 2184? If you notice, it is really hard for an ill or one who is on journey to keep himself quite without talking to anyone. You need to talk for ticketing, to answer other queries, your co-travelers may want to talk with you, etc. And same goes with illness, you have to answer the questions asked by your doctor, to your family, etc. And also you cannot concentrate towards your Lord in both cases.
So, if you are ill or on a journey, from other days count has to be completed. Why do you think Allah said "ayyaaman ukhar"? I understand, it has to be completed in other days of "same month". If Ramadhan is for a month, then it is almost impossible to fulfill what Allah prescribed on us and instead of "other days", it would have said complete your count in "other months".
Exception is given only to those who are ill or on a journey, and if they can do Saum but still don't want to, then they have to feed a poor then as mentioned in the same aayat, count has to be completed in other days.
If you do Saum it is better for you. How? You may not need to pay penalty and maybe something else also. .
2185
2185 Shahru Ramadhan in which was revealed AlQuraan, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights the Shahr, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.Why was it mentioned again about illness and journey when it is already said in 2184?
2184 is talking about a short journey. Wait, wait... I understand, yes, it is talking about a short journey , because "if you sights the Shahr " is the condition. As per 2184, if you abstain while travelling also, it is said better for you, that means you are still in your hottest month. If you are travelling to different country or distant state your hottest month may change.
2185 is about a long journey, so it is not said that "if you can, it is better for you" because, it does not make sense, while travelling itself the time, climate, etc. change. .
One more thing I just wanted to add is, as per 2185, just before sighting the full moon of Ramadhan, if you started your journey and traveled to another country where the full moon of Ramadhan was over, and when you come back after a month or so, here also the full moon of Ramadhan is over, and you cannot be a witness of it this year. In this case, you don't have to abstain as you are not a witness. This is surely a favor of Allah, now you can relate it with 2185 and see.
2186
2186 And when My servants ask you, concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.What this aayat has to do in between the topic of Saum where other aayat after this one is also in topic of Saum?
The answer is, it has to do a lot, when you are in Saum, you don't have to talk to any human as per 1926, then what will you do? Will you just keep quite, or watch movies to pass to your time during Saum? nope But you can talk to your Rabb , He is near, He responds to what you asks Him, etc. as per 2186. And also you can become a muttaqee when you are close to Allah as per 2183 which is the reason of prescribing Saum.2187
2187 It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. And eat and drink until the white thread of dawn becomes distinct to you from the black thread. Then complete the fast until the sunset. And do not have relations with them as long as you are staying for worship in the mosques. These are the limits Allah , so do not approach them. Thus does Allah make clear His ordinances to the people that they may become righteous.-
Made permissible to go to wives during nights of fasting.
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So, we can physically contact wives during nights of fasting.
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Kuloo wa Ishraboo, what does this mean? Is it really referring to food?
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nope The word used for food is "ta-aam" not kuloo, and ishraboo is also not mean drinking. Please check 6145, kuloo word is not used. 2679, no word of kuloo and ishraboo is used. And also please check 293 for Ishrabu used not for drinking.
Kuloo means "consume" not eat. So, what means kuloo in 2187? It is in relation to the topic in the same aayat, i.e., approaching to your wives because that is what mentioned in whole aayat.
When kuloo and ishrabu is referring to any food and drink, it would be said like "...kuloo wa ishraboo min RIZQI-ALLAHi... " as in 260, and also referring to other things in 2188, 2275, 1024, and many more. Kuloo always used with relation to something said in the same aayat.
- Then again 2187 continues the topic further by saying "...wa laa tubaashiru hunna wa antum 'aakifoona fi almasaajid..." means "...And do not have physical contact with them and you are staying in the mosques...".
Hope I put forward my point of view clearly, inshaAllah.
Please note This is absolutely my personal understanding. Please check all the aayaats mentioned in detail before you accept anything.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
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Salaam bro,
Thank you, at the moment I don't know if you are right or not.
but there is one thing I disagree with you.
As per my current understanding Sahr can't be full moon.
please read chapter 97 verse 1 - 3 and 5
971
973
975
from my understanding HIYA in 975 is referring to LAYL. This LAYL ends with FAJR as per 975 so we are talking here about a time span.
In 973 LAYL which is a time span is compared with SAHR.
So LAYL and SAHR must have the same divisor (I am not sure if this is the correct word for it). We can't compare a time period with an object. Hope you understand what I mean.
Thus per my understanding Sahr is also a time span, unless you can proof this wrong.Salaam and I will inshaAllah come back to you if I have some other things,
Bender -
Salaam bro,
Thank you, at the moment I don't know if you are right or not.
but there is one thing I disagree with you.
As per my current understanding Sahr can't be full moon.
please read chapter 97 verse 1 - 3 and 5
971
973
975
from my understanding HIYA in 975 is referring to LAYL. This LAYL ends with FAJR as per 975 so we are talking here about a time span.
In 973 LAYL which is a time span is compared with SAHR.
So LAYL and SAHR must have the same divisor (I am not sure if this is the correct word for it). We can't compare a time period with an object. Hope you understand what I mean.
Thus per my understanding Sahr is also a time span, unless you can proof this wrong.Salaam and I will inshaAllah come back to you if I have some other things,
BenderSalaam Bender,
Thanks for your response. InshaAllah I will check that out. BTW, my target was Saum not Shahr in this thread
If Saum is clear then whoever think what Shahr is, they can abstain that period. Hope you agree with this
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Peace mmkhan,
An interesting post. I don't have any Arabic so I am almost relying really on the logic of what is written in English. So, I have always thought it odd that most translations that I have read go from talking about having sexual intercourse with your wives on the nights of fasting and then saying..."therefore, you may eat and drink until the white thread..." This simply does not make sense.
Dawn.
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peace mmkhan,
when you are in Saum, you don't have to talk to any human as per 1926
This is your own extrapolation. Mary vows "an abstinence", not "the abstinence" as per 2183, 2187 etc.
The word "sawm/abstinence" does not inherently specify what the abstention is from. See classical Arabic dictionaries for example..
Kuloo means "consume" not eat. So, what means kuloo in 2187? It is in relation to the topic in the same aayat, i.e., approaching to your wives because that is what mentioned in whole aayat.
When kuloo and ishrabu is referring to any food and drink, it would be said like "...kuloo wa ishraboo min RIZQI-ALLAHi... " as in 260, and also referring to other things in 2188, 2275, 1024, and many more. Kuloo always used with relation to something said in the same aayat.
This is your own extrapolation. This issue was discussed on this thread http//www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=481
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peace mmkhan,
This is your own extrapolation. Mary vows "an abstinence", not "the abstinence" as per 2183, 2187 etc.
The word "sawm/abstinence" does not inherently specify what the abstention is from. See classical Arabic dictionaries for example..
This is your own extrapolation. This issue was discussed on this thread http//www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=481
Peace Wakas,
Do you mean Saum and AlSaum is different? If so, how about this then
2185
Shahr and AlShahr in 2185 different?
2456
2458
AlSalaat in 2456 and Salaat in 2458 is different?
BTW, thank you for the link.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
peace mmkhan,
The first example you give (i.e. 2185) the words are used in the same verse, i.e. there is a clear link, and there is little doubt as to what is being referred to. Similarly, in your example of 2456 & 2458, it's the same context.
What I'm saying is if "a sawm" is mentioned, then it could be referring to different things unless clarified in context, which in 1926's case, it is. Simple.
If someone says "the sawm" it likely refers to something more well known.
But let's say this is an assumption, we can look at classical arabic dictionaries and see that sawm can refer to abstaining from different things, albeit most commonly eating/drinking. Thus, the word has no inherent link to food/drink. -
If someone says "the sawm" it likely refers to something more well known.
But let's say this is an assumption, we can look at classical arabic dictionaries and see that sawm can refer to abstaining from different things, albeit most commonly eating/drinking. Thus, the word has no inherent link to food/drink.Peace Wakas,
I agree that saum can refer to abstaining from different things, but how do we know what it is? We have to get back to AlQuraan only to get the answer, and hence only 1926 is the option available.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
Salaam
Hope you all well and in the Peace of Creator sun
Nice aproach to this subject and objective MMKhan, just to add some context that i think might be corelated
1910Transliteration
Qala rabbi ijAAal lee ayatan qalaayatuka alla tukallima annasa thalathalayalin sawiyya
Sahih International
said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, sound."Seems the 3 nights or 3 days of "not speaking" is more logical and reasonable, we have 2 exemples, one from Maryam and other from Zechariah in the same Surat.
Salaam and sorry for infiltrating into the post peace
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peace mmkhan,
I agree that saum can refer to abstaining from different things, but how do we know what it is? We have to get back to AlQuraan only to get the answer, and hence only 1926 is the option available.
We know what it is by applying cross-reference, logic, etc etc.
For example, if you and others feel it is referring to not speaking also, do you expect the believers to be silent and thus be significantly disadvantaged when they are at al hajj/the symposium, trying to trade etc?
(Ref 2196, 92 -
Salaam
Hope you all well and in the Peace of Creator sun
Nice aproach to this subject and objective MMKhan, just to add some context that i think might be corelated
1910Transliteration
Qala rabbi ijAAal lee ayatan qalaayatuka alla tukallima annasa thalathalayalin sawiyya
Sahih International
said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights, sound."Seems the 3 nights or 3 days of "not speaking" is more logical and reasonable, we have 2 exemples, one from Maryam and other from Zechariah in the same Surat.
Salaam and sorry for infiltrating into the post peace
Salaam,
Thank you for referring aayat brother.
I checked that, it was not given any link with the word "Saum", but it refers to "Aayat" which was asked by Zachariyya as per 1910
You and all are welcome to infiltrate anytime as we all are students and learning.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan -
392 is another example for the deduction of what it is all about , what is this saum , if you can't pay the blood money to the victims family, after killing someone innocent!
peace
Salaam 357,
I think by mistake you gave 392 as it is irrelevant of Saum.
peace
mmKhan -
peace mmkhan,
We know what it is by applying cross-reference, logic, etc etc.
For example, if you and others feel it is referring to not speaking also, do you expect the believers to be silent and thus be significantly disadvantaged when they are at al hajj/the symposium, trying to trade etc?
(Ref 2196, 92Peace Wakas,
I cannot say anything on this as I have study that in relation to Hajj. I may need sometime for the same. Lets see what Allah shows us, inshaAllah.
Thank you for references.
mmKhan
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Salaam 357,
I think by mistake you gave 392 as it is irrelevant of Saum.
peace
mmKhanI meant,
492
Normal translation;
Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due) If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running by way of repentance to Allah for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
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I meant,
492
Normal translation;
Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due) If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running by way of repentance to Allah for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
Salaam bro,
Thanks for the aayat. I need to study it so I cannot comment on this right now. Need some time.
mmKhan
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Salam
Interesting post, but I have some comments to share.
When we read 2183, we miss the key point from it always. It has been highlighted above. The key point is "As it was prescribed upon those before you"
The above mentioned verse doesn't necessarily mean that there's only one method of fasting. It only explains how fasting was prescribed upon those before us and now it's prescribed upon Muslims.
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Why are the words "Kuli wa Ishrabi" is used in the above aayat?
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Just to relate with 2187 with the same words "Kuloo wa Ishraboo" to understand the concept of Saum clearly and correctly by relating aayaats.
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How 1926 describes us what Saum really means?
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It is very very clearly mentioned in 1926 that during Saum you can eat and drink and DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE. This is how it was prescribed to Maryam who was before us as mentioned in 2183
Here you explain "Kuli wa Ishrabi" to mean eat and drink. However later in your argument you say
- Kuloo wa Ishraboo, what does this mean? Is it really referring to food?
- nope The word used for food is "ta-aam" not kuloo, and ishraboo is also not mean drinking. Please check 6145, kuloo word is not used. 2679, no word of kuloo and ishraboo is used. And also please check 293 for Ishrabu used not for drinking.
Kuloo means "consume" not eat. So, what means kuloo in 2187? It is in relation to the topic in the same aayat, i.e., approaching to your wives because that is what mentioned in whole aayat.
Why is it that in verse , "kuli wa ishrabi" means eat and drink, however in "kulo wa ishrabu" means something different?
The word used for food is "ta-aam" not kuloo, and ishraboo is also not mean drinking. Please check 6145, kuloo word is not used. 2679, no word of kuloo and ishraboo is used. And also please check 293 for Ishrabu used not for drinking.
Food means "ta-aam", that's correct. Kuloo means "eat" not food. So comparing the two isn't correct.
In the word "yata'amuhu" is used to mean eat. However, this doesn't prove that the word "kulu" can't be used to mean the same thing.
In the word "yut'em" is used, which means "to feed" not "to eat".
Also, the word "yusqi" is used, which means "to water" not "to drink".You can't compare "yut'em" and "yusqi" to "kulu wa ishrabu". This verse can't be used to support your argument. It's like comparing eat and drink to feed and water.
There's no mention in verse of the word "ishrabu". It's "ushribu", which means "made to absrob" in this context. The two words are different.
What abstaining has to do with illness and journey in 2184?
It's hard to abstain from eating and drinking while being sick. Same thing goes for traveling, especially before when people used to travel on camels or on foot.
Let's assume that fasting means to isolate ourselves and to not speak to anyone. How would an Islamic state function for a month when all of its citizens decided to isolate themselves? How would children be taken care of when their moms and dads decided to remain silent? What would happen to the teaching process, decision-making process and so on?
Ayyaaman m'adoodaatin is already been discussed in other threads. To my understanding it is only three days.
Does it mean you think it's only required to fast for three days? Because God asks us to fast the whole month in verse "And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month".
Why do you think Allah said "ayyaaman ukhar"?
"a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of days"
It could be because it's not known for how long a person will be sick or unable to fast. So it's more correct here to use the word "days". Saying "an number of months" doesn't make sense.
2186 And when My servants ask you, concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.
What this aayat has to do in between the topic of Saum
It could simply mean that while fasting God is near to us and responds to our supplications.
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Salam
Interesting post, but I have some comments to share.
The above mentioned verse doesn't necessarily mean that there's only one method of fasting. It only explains how fasting was prescribed upon those before us and now it's prescribed upon Muslims.
Salaam luna,
Thank you for your comments.
Well, 2183 is not necessarily mean that there is only one method of fasting. Did I say that? hmm
But what is the use of mentioning "As it was prescribed upon those before you"? That means, you have to find out how was it prescribed upon people before us. That is what I tried to do.
Here you explain "Kuli wa Ishrabi" to mean eat and drink. However later in your argument you say
Why is it that in verse , "kuli wa ishrabi" means eat and drink, however in "kulo wa ishrabu" means something different?
No no no, sorry, it was my mistake I did not mean that way. I wanted to show even if you take "kuli wa ishrabi" means "eat and drink", here is a proof in 1926 that you can do so while abstaining.
Sorry again for misunderstanding and thanks for pointing it out.
Food means "ta-aam", that's correct. Kuloo means "eat" not food. So comparing the two isn't correct.
In the word "yata'amuhu" is used to mean eat. However, this doesn't prove that the word "kulu" can't be used to mean the same thing.
No, it can't be used. There are no two words in AlQuraan giving a single meaning. Sorry, I disagree.
In the word "yut'em" is used, which means "to feed" not "to eat".
Also, the word "yusqi" is used, which means "to water" not "to drink".You can't compare "yut'em" and "yusqi" to "kulu wa ishrabu". This verse can't be used to support your argument. It's like comparing eat and drink to feed and water.
I agree with you on this. handshake
There's no mention in verse of the word "ishrabu". It's "ushribu", which means "made to absrob" in this context. The two words are different.
Are those two words not derived from the same root? I am sorry again to disagree with you on this.
It's hard to abstain from eating and drinking while being sick. Same thing goes for traveling, especially before when people used to travel on camels or on foot.
AlQuraan is not specially for those who used to travel on camels and on food. You already know that, so how can we apply this today? Allah is aware of all situations, on that basis He asked us to do so and so.
Let's assume that fasting means to isolate ourselves and to not speak to anyone. How would an Islamic state function for a month when all of its citizens decided to isolate themselves? How would children be taken care of when their moms and dads decided to remain silent? What would happen to the teaching process, decision-making process and so on?
There is no month of fasting mentioned, you said below "a limited number of day...." Allah would have said a month, it is more easier.
Does it mean you think it's only required to fast for three days? Because God asks us to fast the whole month in verse "And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month".
Shahr does not mean a month. Please use search option of free-minds to get its information.
"a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of days"
It could be because it's not known for how long a person will be sick or unable to fast. So it's more correct here to use the word "days". Saying "an number of months" doesn't make sense.
Saying "an number of months" of course don't make sense. But it would have said "complete your count in other months". But that is not the case.
It could simply mean that while fasting God is near to us and responds to our supplications.
Fine, then how about your quote
Let's assume that fasting means to isolate ourselves and to not speak to anyone. How would an Islamic state function for a month when all of its citizens decided to isolate themselves? How would children be taken care of when their moms and dads decided to remain silent? What would happen to the teaching process, decision-making process and so on?
When you are near to God while abstaining, it is always good to collect as much favors from His as possible instead of decision-making for other things, thinking about teaching process, etc. etc. Isn't it?
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us to His true path pr
mmKhan
