New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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"It" comes from secondary sources though brother Mazhar would not accept it. I have experienced it in some discussions with him. Let me quote translation from his website to show the influence of secondary sources
Indeed this is certainly Qur'aan which is characteristically exalted - guarantor/sustainer of life?
Its second characteristic is that it is scripted within a book whose prominent feature is that it is concealed and well protected.
People do not touch it (Qur'aan written on papers) except those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation).
The piecemeal dispatch and delivery of Grand Qur'aan is from the Sustainer Lord of the known/existing Worlds.
He has translated as "those who have rendered themselves in physical purity/having taken bath (after intercourse-ejaculation)".
No offence intended brother Mazhar.
Since majority of people see only words and are not aware as to their function in the sentence, I do describe when it is adjectival, a noun portraying the characteristic of principle. Do I need to say function words do carry meanings.
What I have stated giving full meanings of words, can you find it in any so called secondaru source?
You have not determined what is the word If you would have seen its details at the end of page you visited you might have agreed.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/117.%20Muthara%20Ta%20Haa%20Ra%20clean/21.gif Passive Participle Definite; plural; masculine; nominative; . It is the Subject of preceding verb.
And perhaps you also do not know the meanings which are added to the base verb when it is Form-II. It means to render an attribute to the object which is signified by the verbal noun. Passive participle also means an entity upon which an action is carried out.
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Since majority of people see only words and are not aware as to their function in the sentence, I do describe when it is adjectival, a noun portraying the characteristic of principle. Do I need to say function words do carry meanings.
What I have stated giving full meanings of words, can you find it in any other source?
You have not determined what is the word If you would have seen its details at the end of page you visited you might gave agreed.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/117.%20Muthara%20Ta%20Haa%20Ra%20clean/21.gif Passive Participle Definite; plural; masculine; nominative; .
And perhaps you also do not know the meanings which are added to the base verb when it is Form-II. It means to render an attribute to the object which is signified by the verbal noun. Passive participle also means an entity upon which an action is carried out.
It is not about Form II or Passive Participle but about taking as physical purity. Lets see few examples from Quran
2125
342
541
..... .......9103
........3333
.........These are in Form II and do they mean physical purity?
Sorry brother Wakas for the distraction.
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It is not about Form II or Passive Participle but about taking as physical purity. Lets see few examples from Quran
2125
342
541
..... .......9103
........3333
.........These are in Form II and do they mean physical purity?
Sorry brother Wakas for the distraction.
Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur?n
a) Total occurrences 31
b) No of constructions 24
Nouns 10; Recurrence 16 Verbs 14; Recurrence 15
The basic perception infolded in it is to make something clean or pure from dirt or filth. The basic job done is to segregate oneself, a thing from the impurities clung to it/around it.
The basic perception infolded in Root " " is to wash with water signifying the removing of dirt, or filth or the like thereof by making water to run over it resulting in cleansing/free from unpleasantness-impurity. And the basic perception infolded in the Root is also to make something clean or pure from dirt or filth. In both, the basic job done is to segregate oneself, one thing from the impurities clung to it/around it. The distinction and peculiarity, however, of the two is that " " is restrictively used for corporeal cleaning/purification with water while Root " " has connotation both corporeal and ideological and can be attained both with the help of water and otherwise.
Lane's Lexicons 1 and , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. of each , (Msb, K,) inf. n. , (S, Msb, K,) which is of each verb, (S, Msb,) and , (Sb, K,) or the latter is a simple subst., (S, Msb,) It was, or became, clean, free from dirt or filth, or pure. (A, * Msb, K. *) is of two kinds; corporeal and spiritual.
2 , inf. n. , (S) and he washed him, or it, with water (K) and signifies the same as . (Bd in lvi. 78. -
peace Mazhar,
Questions
- where is the "it" in the Arabic? By saying "The Source may be expressed or it may be understood from context, but its existence is always implied by the departing word itself." it seems you are claiming it is implied. Please state clearly if your view is it must refer to "al masjid al haram" and it is impossible for it not to.
- please provide a reference for your translation of "haythu" as "whatever direction", and state clearly that it is impossible for it to mean "wherever" if that is your view.
RE 1)
You never explicitly clarified like I asked, but it's ok, I will assume you are claiming that it MUST refer to exiting/departing "al masjid al haram".- no translation I read states this (but perhaps you picked up on something others did not)
- I will ask those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I to see what they think about your claim
Please note, I haven't even addressed the consequence of your translation, i.e. whatever direction one exits Sacred Mosque one must turn to face it. I consider this nonsensical, but I'll reserve judgement til I check your claims.
RE 2)
Again, you never clarified like I asked but it's ok, as we can see you stated it can mean "and from where". I will check up on your "ma" claim.You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
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You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
No, I did not. Depart is okay because it means to leave from a place; set off to leave, especially at the beginning of a journey
In its core, place is included. Time is non-core, as we say departure time.
"Where" and "wherever" are two distinct words ]https//www.englishgrammar.org/using-where-and-wherever/
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peace Mazhar,
RE 1)
You never explicitly clarified like I asked, but it's ok, I will assume you are claiming that it MUST refer to exiting/departing "al masjid al haram".- no translation I read states this (but perhaps you picked up on something others did not)
- I will ask those more knowledgeable of Arabic than I to see what they think about your claim
Please note, I haven't even addressed the consequence of your translation, i.e. whatever direction one exits Sacred Mosque one must turn to face it. I consider this nonsensical, but I'll reserve judgement til I check your claims.
RE 2)
Again, you never clarified like I asked but it's ok, as we can see you stated it can mean "and from where". I will check up on your "ma" claim.You seem to imply there is a significant difference between "where" and "wherever", and "depart" and "exit". I don't really see much difference but I will see if I can get clarification on your claims.
For understanding this one more aspect let me point out. What would be the state obtaining on its accomplishment?
After departing - leaving a place the place will become on the back of the person who left it. If he is asked to turn towards it being distant from it the appropriate verb is
Fa is for apodosis clause and signifies cause and effect and sequence of action when the first action has been completed.
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Peace Wakas.
I do not follow what you are trying to establish . I see your reasoning as a complicated set of getting to the meaning of "bayt" ,Masjid Al Haram" ,Kiblah...etc..
As for brother Mazhar, his debate with you is even more complicated and bitty.
Let me explain my understanding ,then see if you get what I mean
I see a context of Masjid Al Haram starting at 2124.i.e from Abraham.
2;225 tells us this
We have rendered the beyt a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as Musalla. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail "You shall purify My Beyt for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."I deduce this is talking about Musalla as a prayer place because of "those who do Raka and Sujud. - Bow and prostrate.
So obviously the rest of the verses all the way to 2163 are talking about the same subject of Masjid Al Haram, beyt, kiblah, deen/Millat of Abraham .
2142 is saying at the start of the task of delivering the message ,as a trial for the believers GOD ordered change from this kiblah of Abraham ,then when the message was established GOD ordered them to revert back to it 2144.
Why this is still talking about a focal point (Musalla for Iquami salat)?
2152-153 "Udhkuruni...( From Aquimi Salat Lidhikri) and "Istainu bi AlSabri wa "Salat"
Basically 2150 is saying wherever you go(come from) -I do not see depart- face (the focal point)(Al Masjid Al Haram. wherever you all are face the same direction...etc..
Of course my understanding has not given me any complication .
Elsewhere in Qoran,it is confirmed that "Iquami salat" was passed down from generation to another from Abraham
Of course this is my take on the verses, you may disagree ,but that is fine as I am explaining to you why I do not follow your reasoning.
I do not see the complications you are getting at.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Lane's Lexicons 1 and , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. of each , (Msb, K,) inf. n. , (S, Msb, K,) which is of each verb, (S, Msb,) and , (Sb, K,) or the latter is a simple subst., (S, Msb,) It was, or became, clean, free from dirt or filth, or pure. (A, * Msb, K. *) is of two kinds; corporeal and spiritual.
2 , inf. n. , (S) and he washed him, or it, with water (K) and signifies the same as . (Bd in lvi. 78.So brother Mazhar I chose spiritual purity in understanding 5679
because Quran is a book of guidance and we can get guidance only if we approach it with pure mind without any pre-conceived concepts. Of course it is my understanding. -
So brother Mazhar I chose spiritual purity in understanding 5679
because Quran is a book of guidance and we can get guidance only if we approach it with pure mind without any pre-conceived concepts. Of course it is my understanding.Guidance from any book is obtained only by reading it academically without bias.
The Passive participle is made from passive verb. And they are the subject of which signifies the feel-sensation of touch; hand on a thing without having anything between.
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peace GL,
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I do not consider your translations accurate.
I see a context of Masjid Al Haram starting at 2124.i.e from Abraham.
AMAH is never mentioned with Abraham.
So obviously the rest of the verses all the way to 2163 are talking about the same subject of Masjid Al Haram, beyt, kiblah, deen/Millat of Abraham .
Not according to
2141 That was a community that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they used to do.Of course my understanding has not given me any complication .
It can seem like that if one dodges the questions.
Elsewhere in Qoran,it is confirmed that "Iquami salat" was passed down from generation to another from Abraham
You've claimed this for years
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347679#msg347679 -
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Peace Wakas.
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All translations have to be checked including yours and mine and anybody else. They can never replace the original text that GOD preserved for all of us.
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In the context of the verses 2123-124...163,beyt,beyt Muharram, Maquam Ibrahim and Masjid Al Haram are the same place in my view of the verses and
2225
Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the Masjid Al Haram that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
2226
We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My beyt for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.-
But according to 235-236 and "Thumma Ayhaina Ilaika An Ittabi Millat Abraham...i.e you follow Millat Abraham.
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If it dodges your questions ,I do not have your issues/questions.
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If I claimed ,I have given verses for my understanding,quote
Thank you once more.
Let me explain further, Why I think "salat" is part of the rites of "Millat" or " Deen"....of Abraham
2124
Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you an imam for the people." He said, "And also my descendants?" He said, "My covenant does not include the transgressors.
2127
As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed) "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.2128
"Our Lord, make us Muslims to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of Muslims to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.2130
Who would forsake the Millat of Abraham, except one who fools his own soul? We have chosen him in this world, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous.2132
Moreover, Abraham exhorted his children to do the same, and so did Jacob "O my children, God has pointed out the Deen for you; do not die except as Muslimeen."I hope this clarifies for you my understanding of why I think the rites ,including "salat" have originated from Abraham.
Of course these are my views/understanding. Like I said I do not see the problems you see.
Hope that explains why I conversed with you here. And of course you are entitled to your views.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
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Correction Wakas,3) should read 2135-136
Peace. -
Peace,
It seems the contexts starting from the verse 142 in chapter 2 denotes an issue related to geographical direction because, the answer for the question (of the ignorant/foolish) in the beginning verse (with the terms ‘wallaa' and ‘qibla') itself involves geographical directions, i.e. Mashriq & Maghrib.
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http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
Peace,
It seems the contexts starting from the verse 142 in chapter 2 denotes an issue related to geographical direction because...
peace,
I can understand why you'd say that but, quote from article " the following verses also clearly imply turning to a specific direction is irrelevant, e.g. 2115 says "for God is the east and the west so wherever you turn so there is God's wajh/presence/consideration...", 2177 "...it is not righteousness that you turn your wujuh/faces/considerations towards/qibala the east and the west...""In any case, simply pondering over one point is unlikely to get us further in our understanding. The article highlights multiple issues to ponder over to see which understanding fits best. Member imrankhawaja summed it up well on page 26, quote
"today i read all of this thread,
so far nobody attempted the points what wakas raised (including me) lol when they bring their understanding then we will weigh the evidences on the table."Update
I havent been able to verify Mazhar's grammar claims with regard to "Wamin haythu kharajta". I would be surprised if it was true however. In any case, it doesn't stop one from answering other issues etc.It's only been 6 years since the article was published, perhaps they need more time...
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@ wakas
also few days ago i was researching about the word ?QIBLA? in URDU language.
what i found is interesting to share.
URDU borrowed this word from arabic and its meaning in urdu is ?DIRECTION? any direction its not a physical place.in proverb/saying a famous one is ?apna Qibla dursut karo? = (correct ur QIBLA) meanings of proverb/saying is correct ur WAYs/paths in a sense when someone is going on wrong track of life.
it was always more than one views of these terms but people appear to force it by saying qibla = kabba in makka.
your approach on qibla and kaba is amazing in your articles i read it many times for better understanding. i suggest memebers to do same like take their time.
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http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
peace,
I can understand why you'd say that but, quote from article " the following verses also clearly imply turning to a specific direction is irrelevant, e.g. 2115 says "for God is the east and the west so wherever you turn so there is God's wajh/presence/consideration...", 2177 "...it is not righteousness that you turn your wujuh/faces/considerations towards/qibala the east and the west...""In any case, simply pondering over one point is unlikely to get us further in our understanding. The article highlights multiple issues to ponder over to see which understanding fits best. Member imrankhawaja summed it up well on page 26, quote
"today i read all of this thread,
so far nobody attempted the points what wakas raised (including me) lol when they bring their understanding then we will weigh the evidences on the table."Update
I havent been able to verify Mazhar's grammar claims with regard to "Wamin haythu kharajta". I would be surprised if it was true however. In any case, it doesn't stop one from answering other issues etc.It's only been 6 years since the article was published, perhaps they need more time...
Brother waqas
These days I am looking for a bride... So I tell them about my nature and what is my belief... Whenever I tell this is my belief they all escape... Saying all new invention... So I always send your mypercept link... At least they get some guidance... But they all block me... I wonder I will ever find a wife.. Ladies... If you are interested... My door is open....
Okay let me turn to masjid haram... I won't agree with that.... For me masjid = sanctuary (either man made and or natural) Haram = restricted... It is a restricted sanctuary..... That's all not inviolable and that stuff.... If you ask any questions I will respond... Thank you... And I am sure you are very knowledgeable to think differently....
God guide you further -
peace all,
imran,
what you say about "qibla" does not surprise me. A significant discovery in the article was the following, quote
"in 2148 the usage of "wherever" is the ONLY time it appears without a close link to "turn+wajh+AMAH" therefore likens "wijhatun (direction/course/goal/motive)" with "qiblah"....... ........ ...... Furthermore, AQ implies each person may have their own "qiblah" in 2145 then later in 2148 says "for each is a wijhatun he turns towards it", strongly suggesting "qiblah" and "wijhatun" are being related as similar terms/concepts. Please re-read these verses as this is a key finding."qiblah = direction/course/goal/motive
jkhan,
I think mypercept articles are a little too much to handle for a new person, except perhaps this article is ok
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Intelligent_Approach_to_Islam.htm
If they are receptive to the above then perhaps give them this link
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com -
jkhan,
I think mypercept articles are a little too much to handle for a new person, except perhaps this article is ok
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Intelligent_Approach_to_Islam.htm
If they are receptive to the above then perhaps give them this link
http//misconceptions-about-islam.comPeace...
It's bot coz it is too much to handle dear brother... It's coz not interested to look the truth or other dimension or to give chance to anything other than what they are brought up..... One girl asked me.... So when I. Want to mecca if marry will you not perform it then how can I be with as a family.... I said I will join as a trip you can perform it... She said you live with your nonsense.. For me my life is important.... Everyone is worried about their current life and the consequences that they have to go through by deviating from the mainstream.... Even sects such as thouwhid and shia has a big group and people keep on moving to such.. But QURAN only is far from their reality... Unless there is Big community.... That's the truth in my country brother..... But for me life after is important so if God will I will find my believing partner... But I don't exactly looking someone like me but at least someone who truly believe in God... That's more than enough....
Note I specially link to them first the hadith topic in your mypercept....
FYI... You only dragged me to this forum... I emailed you well back in 2017 end or early 2018 talking to you about the night and day where I was arguing night is not at sunset.. Then you told me come there is a forum and introduced me... So I registered... Thank you... It is a good site for free minds fir sure and not for restrained hearts...
BTW you didn't say anything about AMAH -
Salam Wakas!
I have again studied your article and noticed that you have not mentioned/discussed the following Ayats
729
731
917
918
9107-108
1821
7218
Maybe I missed something!May Allah bless and guide us all!
