Abraham offers his daughters to the wrongdoers?
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Peace Ayisha.
Not until we establish Did god order Abraham to kill his son?
Now the verses you quoted do not confirm that.
While I agree it was a trial. It does not say God ordered him to kill his son.
Try again.Peace.
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Peace Ayisha.
Not until we establish Did god order Abraham to kill his son?
Now the verses you quoted do not confirm that.
While I agree it was a trial. It does not say God ordered him to kill his son.
Try again.Peace.
He had a vision/dream, he fulfilled it, completed it and was rewarded for it. Would God reward him for completing a trial the devil set him?
Please try to answer that.
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Peace Ayisha.
You still have not established " Did God give the order." Let us do that first. Then I will move on to other questions.
I repeat "God does not advocate sin". So just like the trial of Job and Jesus by satan, so was the trial of Abraham. They all got rewarded in the end for trusting in God.
Who gave the order?
Peace.
Peace.
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Peace Ayisha.
You still have not established " Did God give the order." Let us do that first. Then I will move on to other questions.
I repeat "God does not advocate sin". So just like the trial of Job and Jesus by satan, so was the trial of Abraham. They all got rewarded in the end for trusting in God.
Who gave the order?
Peace.
Peace.
Read the words He had a vision/dream, he fulfilled it, completed it and was rewarded for it. Would God reward him for completing a trial the devil set him?
Please try to answer that.
You claim it was from the devil, where is that? What verses lead you to believe that?
37.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right. (he FULFILLED it, what he did to fulfill it was RIGHT)
37.106 For this was obviously a trial- (FULFILLING a trial from the devil would not be rewarded by God)
37.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times (later generations sacrifice based on this TRIAL that Abraham FULFILLED. Are we left with Abraham trial by the devil that was rewarded or are we left with Abrahams trial of sincere devotion to God?)
37.109"Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
37.110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. (is doing RIGHT following the devil?)
37.111 For he was one of our believing Servants. (believing the devil is one of God's believing servants?)where is the checking, where is there ANYTHING in there to back up your claim?
Abraham had a vision of sacrificing his son for God, he was willing to do it, he was stopped from doing it as HE HAD FULFILLED IT by being willing to do it. He was rewarded for it.
HE WAS REWARDED FOR DOING RIGHT, HE WAS A BELIEVER. Does God say that about following anything from the devil?
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Peace Ayisha.
Quotewhere is the checking, where is there ANYTHING in there to back up your claim?
Abraham had a vision of sacrificing his son for God, he was willing to do it, he was stopped from doing it as HE HAD FULFILLED IT by being willing to do it. He was rewarded for it.
HE WAS REWARDED FOR DOING RIGHT, HE WAS A BELIEVER. Does God say that about following anything from the devil?
PLEASE FOLLOW CAREFULLY
I will start from the beginning
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
NOW HERE IS THE CHECKING[/b
They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).
When the thought of killing his son came to him in the dream, he thought it was from God. But before he came to put the " thought into action" he submitted.( Put God in his mind, put his trust in God)
God responds to those who submit and trust in Him and rewards them
We called him "O Abraham.
You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
That was an exacting test indeed.
You see sister. God never advocates sin. The original thought of Abraham of killing his son was followed by a submission and complete trust in God. That is what saved Abraham. That is what "submission" does. When a bad thought comes into your head, remember God and trust in Him and He will save you.
Sister please remember God never advocate sin.
Peace.
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Peace Ayisha.
Quotewhere is the checking, where is there ANYTHING in there to back up your claim?
Abraham had a vision of sacrificing his son for God, he was willing to do it, he was stopped from doing it as HE HAD FULFILLED IT by being willing to do it. He was rewarded for it.
HE WAS REWARDED FOR DOING RIGHT, HE WAS A BELIEVER. Does God say that about following anything from the devil?
PLEASE FOLLOW CAREFULLY
I will start from the beginning
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
NOW HERE IS THE CHECKING[/b
They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).
When the thought of killing his son came to him in the dream, he thought it was from God. But before he came to put the " thought into action" he submitted.( Put God in his mind, put his trust in God)
God responds to those who submit and trust in Him and rewards them
We called him "O Abraham.
You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
That was an exacting test indeed.
You see sister. God never advocates sin. The original thought of Abraham of killing his son was followed by a submission and complete trust in God. That is what saved Abraham. That is what "submission" does. When a bad thought comes into your head, remember God and trust in Him and He will save you.
Sister please remember God never advocate sin.
Peace.
Red bold on the squeezed in part is from me
incredible, and that took all this time for you to figure out where to squeeze that in to fit your claim?
Abraham was a submitter LONG BEFORE this, there was no checking as per your squeezed in claim there or he would have implored God before laying the son out!
They were willing, submitted and were rewarded for that, which is clear in the verses without your added squeezed in claims. Now you're telling me he was rewarded for something you stuck in there that didn't happen?
Try again and try harder to explain the ACTUAL verses that are there.
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Peace Ayisha.
Quotewhere is the checking, where is there ANYTHING in there to back up your claim?
Abraham had a vision of sacrificing his son for God, he was willing to do it, he was stopped from doing it as HE HAD FULFILLED IT by being willing to do it. He was rewarded for it.
HE WAS REWARDED FOR DOING RIGHT, HE WAS A BELIEVER. Does God say that about following anything from the devil?
PLEASE FOLLOW CAREFULLY
I will start from the beginning
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
NOW HERE IS THE CHECKING[/b
They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).
When the thought of killing his son came to him in the dream, he thought it was from God. But before he came to put the " thought into action" he submitted.( Put God in his mind, put his trust in God)
God responds to those who submit and trust in Him and rewards them
We called him "O Abraham.
You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
That was an exacting test indeed.
You see sister. God never advocates sin. The original thought of Abraham of killing his son was followed by a submission and complete trust in God. That is what saved Abraham. That is what "submission" does. When a bad thought comes into your head, remember God and trust in Him and He will save you.
Sister please remember God never advocate sin.
Peace.
Look at that I put in red, you have believed the dream. We thus reward the righteous
rewarded for BELIEVING THE DREAM
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Peace Ayisha.
I am afraid , like it was said to Moses ,I will say to you.
" This is where we part company".
May the Lord guide us to true submission.
Peace.
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Peace All.
For those who are following this thread, I will summarise what I said in this post.
First let me explain why I entered the discussion.
I believe very strongly that we should not blaspheme. Say that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice/ kill his son? It is the same as saying God sent his son to be crucified?
So I clearly made this my main point God did not order Abraham to sacrifice/kill his son
I then explained Abraham saw a dream. He believed /thought the dream was from God. Because of his loyalty to God and his sincerity he went on to try and action " the dream".
God knew how loyal and sincere Abraham was , God also knew that the "thought/ dream" was not from Him. So He saved him from killing his son .
God told him you believed the dream and I rewarded you by stopping you from carrying out the sacrifice of your son.
I have given verse to confirm God does not advocate sin.
Now brothers and sisters, Why would God NOT ask Abraham or anybody to carry out such a sinful task?
WHY?
Because God is never unjust.
WHY?
Because God does not order anyone to kill for no reason and no crime.
WHY?
Because if God orders, He does not change His mind.
WHY?
Because He tells us what kind of a God He is in the scripture.
And so on...
Go on read the scripture, you will find that the God in the scripture will never order such a thing!I believe there is a lesson here. Total loyalty and submission to God will save you, in case you think things happening in your life are from God and they turn out a trial.
Peace.
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Peace goodlogic,
Thank you for the summary. I will need to reflect on what you said. A part of me wants to think that God wouldn't advocate such a thing, and then there is the idea of Abraham having been"tested" which also comes to mind. I'll have to think about this one.
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I then explained Abraham saw a dream. He believed /thought the dream was from God. Because of his loyalty to God and his sincerity he went on to try and action " the dream".
God knew how loyal and sincere Abraham was , God also knew that the "thought/ dream" was not from Him. So He saved him from killing his son .
God told him you believed the dream and I rewarded you by stopping you from carrying out the sacrifice of your son.
If he believed the dream was from God and it was from the devil, as you claimed, then he was NOT being loyal to God by preparing to sacrifice his son.
God would not reward him for believing the dream if it was from the devil, he would punish him.
This whole act of total and utter submission to God is the test of Abraham and the one that makes God repeatedly tell us to follow the religion of Abraham, the true in faith. If as you claim he was following something from the devil then we would not be told to follow him and there was no test of his complete devotion to God.
He fulfilled the test by being willing to sacrifice the son for God, that is why he was stopped, the test had been passed. The test was not to kill the son, the test was to be willing to do it.
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Salaam
But would God test someone by getting them to do something evil. It doesn't make sense that God would ask a prophet to kill his own child when he condemns the pagan Arabs for killing their girl children, condemns murder and tells us not to kill our children. Isn't it more logical that the dream was from Satan and that God stopped Abraham from killing his son by substituting the ram? -
Peace All.
Thank you Released and Lena.
I will also refer readers to the summary I posted at number 49 of this thread.
Peace.
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Salaam
But would God test someone by getting them to do something evil. It doesn't make sense that God would ask a prophet to kill his own child when he condemns the pagan Arabs for killing their girl children, condemns murder and tells us not to kill our children. Isn't it more logical that the dream was from Satan and that God stopped Abraham from killing his son by substituting the ram?The test is the willingness to do it.
It is not logical that God said
37.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right. (fulfilled a vision from the devil and rewarded for following the devil?)
37.106 For this was obviously a trial- (FULFILLING a trial from the devil would not be rewarded by God)
37.107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice
37.108 And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times (later generations sacrifice based on this TRIAL that Abraham FULFILLED. Are we left with Abraham trial by the devil that was rewarded or are we left with Abrahams trial of sincere devotion to God?)
37.109"Peace and salutation to Abraham!"
37.110 Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. (is doing RIGHT following the devil?)
37.111 For he was one of our believing Servants. (believing the devil is one of God's believing servants?)All those verses would not be there if this vision that was a trial that was fulfilled and rewarded greatly to the point this is left for future generations was from the devil.
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The test is the willingness to do it.
Sorry, yes Lot. But he was a prophet too, so I can't believe any prophet would do that.
The test is willingness to committ a gross sin??? The reward is for being willing to committ a gross sin because you believe GOD was asking you to do it??? In criminal trials, when people say they killed because they believed GOD was asking them to do it, they are usually found mentally incapable or schizophrenic!! This is not logical - there has to be another explanation - may not be the devil but definitely its not GOD asking him to kill his son.
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Peace All.
Two points
1- Those who translate37.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision! do not make sense?
How could Abraham have fulfilled the vision? If he did, his son would have been sacrificed/ kliled?2- It should be " You believed the dream". And it follows that he was saved from fulfilling the dream/vision.
Please refer to reply 49 for the summary.
Peace.
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Peace All.
Two points
1- Those who translate37.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision! do not make sense?
How could Abraham have fulfilled the vision? If he did, his son would have been sacrificed/ kliled?2- It should be " You believed the dream". And it follows that he was saved from fulfilling the dream/vision.
Please refer to reply 49 for the summary.
Peace.
Believed the dream, according to you that was from the devil, so he was rewarded for believing the devil?
He fulfilled it by being prepared to DO it. God didn't want him to kill his son, He wanted him to show he was prepared to do it, which he was.
Why reward him for being prepared to do what the devil told him to do?
37.105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
even if you change the first part to say he believed the dream, what about the 2nd part? What he was doing was RIGHT according to God and he was rewarded for it.