The God of the Quran is a Fact

inquisitivetrini

All you have done is taken comments I made in different topics to different claims with different intentions and tried to make it look as though as I have no idea of how to spell Islam.

That wasn't my point at all. I was just trying to point out that people are giving you answers to your questions, yet most of your questions are answered in the Quran.

Your ridiculous and childishly stubborn repetition of read the Koran! only underlines your inability of understanding the problem.

I assume that you haven't read the Quran because of the way you word certain questions, define certain things, and because you said that you came on here to learn about what Muslims believe. If you want to know what Muslims believe, that kind of seems like you haven't read the Quran. Does that make sense?

Now, I will not engage in a personal insulting battle here, so if you want to discuss this, we can use a different platform. I am reachable on all the usual places and also via the Jinn&Tonic Show..

No need to do so. I will instead apologize for making assumptions about you without investigating thoroughly. I really liked the pun by the way. Lol.

If you contribute a useful opinion regarding the god in Islam I will respond, but otherwise I will not react other than to assure anyone who doubts it that I have done a lot more than just read the Koran several times.

In that case, what exactly is the problem you have? What am I not understanding about you? What is it that you're seeking?

Pardon me if I sounded like I was pleading with you. I will cease from suggesting you to read. And once again, I will apologize for making assumptions and jumping to conclusions when it is absolutely forbidden for me to do so.

I have no idea why I felt the need to make assumptions about you. Perhaps I felt you were quite rude to many of the posters on free-minds, though why did I feel the need to defend them? It seems to me as though you haven't read very much about Islam or the Quran, but then I am begged to ask myself ? how much have I actually read? Why am I pointing fingers at how rude you are when I can improve myself in several things? The conversation only put knots and a bad feeling in my stomach which got neither of us nowhere.

I have my moral code which has provided me with the best examples on how to respectfully debate with others in the Quran...If only I took heed. I didn't. My apologies.

I felt that I was justified because I pointed out the posts you made which proved my point of you being rude. That was my factual basis to conclude my judgment about you. Though I may have investigated a little, I did not investigate THOROUGHLY which is what I am required to do as I Muslim. I also asked you to investigate thoroughly when I myself did not which only makes me a hypocrite. Quite the predicament.

Please forgive me for what I said to you. But I did actually mean it when I said "peace". I do hope you find what you're looking before because anyone seeking the truth deserves to be at peace.

So peace.

sonnie

EDITED

inquisitivetrini

I have the impression that most of people here do not have the time to read and study the Qur'an because of being busied writing posts and entertaining themselves with the replies, polemics and discussions...

Hmm. In my case, you may have a point. Thank you for the reminder, bro!

Peace. yay

zulf81

Hey zulf81,

I really enjoyed your posts in which you share your take on things. They match, to a high degree, my own ideas. It was very interesting to read!
bravo

One tip don't let your mind pull you into automatic emotional reactions to people's replies on this forum. It seems you are quite a sensitive and deep thinking character, with a relatively hot temperament which you strive to control with finesse and manners. You'll find plenty of people with whom you can easily have eternal debates back and forth. Just let it go. Don't let your mind and emotions drive you mad, uselessly. Don't brickwall.
Just a friendly advice.

And I'm looking forward to read more of your ideas!
Peace!
Zulf

I appreciate what you said, you're absolutely right. I'm just trying to do my part to help people think, and I was lowering myself to his level.

Thanks again

StopS

Hi, StopS

Im curious, ever you read the quran once on your life? I think it is difficult to explain what we believe if you dont read the quran yourself.

Amazing! I have explained this numerous times and I thought I made this very clear in my introduction. Also, how can I ask specific questions, very specific questions if I have never read a Koran? Yes, yes, I have read the Koran, many times and more times to make very sure what I say is as correct as I can possibly try. The rest and what I don't understand is why I am here. I ask Muslims who live this religion every day who should be able to help.

Have you read the Koran? Can you explain its contents?

StopS

I have the impression that most of people here do not have the time to read and study the Qur'an because of being busied writing posts and entertaining themselves with the replies, polemics and discussions...

True, I have the same impression. Also, some people spend more energy on personal issues than the questions at hand.

StopS

You don't seem to understand what you are talking about. Its 0, only Mathematically (first law of thermodynamics). Just because you have -1 and you have +1 of something doesn't mean you have nothing (unless they occupy the same space-time). Buts that's ok, you are not an engineer like me.

Thermodynamics? Who? Where? I was talking cosmology.

You mentioned "-"the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon right now"

The 1st law of thermodynamics covers energy transfer, not particle physics. So before you condescendingly make statements regarding my intelligence and knowledge, please first check if you are talking about the same thing I am, ok?

Yes.

I asked you 4 questions

What is truth manifested?
Can you tell me the opposite?
Truth non-manifested?
Truth spiritual?

And your answer is "yes"?

I showed you why your statement as it was is nonsensical and you still answer with "yes"?

No problem, I hope Allah has placed guidance in your future.

Cheers

EDIT
StopS,
When you get a chance, please take a second to think about how all of reality/existence came to be...

It seems you need more guidance than me. And to top it off with a no-go question like "how did everything come to be..." shows you have never done any research and have never looked left or right of what is going on in this world.

OK so we see that your equation reality=god is not possible, so do you have another suggestion why your god should be considered a fact?

StopS

In that case, what exactly is the problem you have? What am I not understanding about you? What is it that you're seeking?

Pardon me if I sounded like I was pleading with you. I will cease from suggesting you to read. And once again, I will apologize for making assumptions and jumping to conclusions when it is absolutely forbidden for me to do so.

I have no idea why I felt the need to make assumptions about you. Perhaps I felt you were quite rude to many of the posters on free-minds, though why did I feel the need to defend them? It seems to me as though you haven't read very much about Islam or the Quran, but then I am begged to ask myself ? how much have I actually read? Why am I pointing fingers at how rude you are when I can improve myself in several things? The conversation only put knots and a bad feeling in my stomach which got neither of us nowhere.

I have my moral code which has provided me with the best examples on how to respectfully debate with others in the Quran...If only I took heed. I didn't. My apologies.

I felt that I was justified because I pointed out the posts you made which proved my point of you being rude. That was my factual basis to conclude my judgment about you. Though I may have investigated a little, I did not investigate THOROUGHLY which is what I am required to do as I Muslim. I also asked you to investigate thoroughly when I myself did not which only makes me a hypocrite. Quite the predicament.

Please forgive me for what I said to you. But I did actually mean it when I said "peace". I do hope you find what you're looking before because anyone seeking the truth deserves to be at peace.

So peace.

OK, so let's see if we can get this on a factual track.

As I have explained many times I have read and studied all common Islamic texts plus some scholars and some opinions and rulings. Because I don't live in a Muslim majority country at the moment I can't go to the Imam or the Islamic Cultural Centre like I used to.

On top of the 29 single letter "verses" approximately 20% of the Koran is not understood by anybody. Another 30% is ambiguous. Which is why we have different groups and sections within the Islamic community.
This means the Koran requires interpretation. As a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority country I feel compelled to learn as much as I can about the culture which stops my wife from going out alone or driving in KSA or forcing a non-Muslim to cover her body as conformance with local culture when the same people who demand compliance with their culture don't respond with the same courtesy when in my country.

So I am told Islam is the basis. I am told the Koran is the basis. I am told the sunnah is the basis. I am told the rulings and the interpretations by scholars are the basis.
This means I am getting conflicting information. I have decided to attribute the sunnah with a hearsay status and focus on the Koran. Looking at the history of the Koran I find discrepancies. Looking at the contents I find discrepancies. So the logical step for me is to ask Muslims who live this book every day to hear what they think.

But coming here I see so much hate and so much ignorance it is confusing for me. I read these comments which are so ridiculously wrong it is truly astonishing. I need to find a balance between what the truth is and what people are saying out of ignorance and the intent of making stuff seem real which is not. And then there are people like you, questioning my motives and trying to make me look stupid, blunt and a troll.

As I have said in my intro, I might seem rude, but it is being straight. I don't lie - at least not knowingly - and I don't play games.

inquisitivetrini

OK, so let's see if we can get this on a factual track.

As I have explained many times I have read and studied all common Islamic texts plus some scholars and some opinions and rulings. Because I don't live in a Muslim majority country at the moment I can't go to the Imam or the Islamic Cultural Centre like I used to.

That's probably the first problem. Imams and Scholars hardly follow the book at all.

I have been discussing details in the Koran here. I can do this because I have read the Koran many times. I have read the Koran with ibn Kathir, al-Jalalayn, Tabari et al. I have read the commentaries usually suggested by Koran teachers.

That usually brings more confusion. At least it did with me when I did something similar.

On top of the 29 single letter "verses" approximately 20% of the Koran is not understood by anybody. Another 30% is ambiguous. Which is why we have different groups and sections within the Islamic community.

There are different groups and sections because of outside literature from the Quran. I.e. Hadith and tafsir.

This means the Koran requires interpretation.

Or perhaps we're putting interpretation where it doesn't need it?

As a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority country I feel compelled to learn as much as I can about the culture which stops my wife from going out alone or driving in KSA or forcing a non-Muslim to cover her body as conformance with local culture when the same people who demand compliance with their culture don't respond with the same courtesy when in my country.

Where are you from? Did you decide to live in a Muslim country and then regret it later?

So I am told Islam is the basis. I am told the Koran is the basis. I am told the sunnah is the basis. I am told the rulings and the interpretations by scholars are the basis.
This means I am getting conflicting information.

I was frustrated by the same thing. That's when I decided "screw people" and read the Quran for myself without the influence of others and tried to read it with an open mind. That's what lead me here.

I have decided to attribute the sunnah with a hearsay status and focus on the Koran.

That's good.

Looking at the history of the Koran I find discrepancies.

Did you know that the Quran's entire history is all based on hadith? I tried to find the answer to this too. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604424.msg308840#msg308840

Looking at the contents I find discrepancies.

Like what? Have you read other translations? When I'm confused, I usually look at these three websites for that particular verse.

http//quran.com/ <--Traditional translations
http//www.quranix.net/<--Quran Only translations (i.e. Free-minds, Edip and RK)
http//corpus.quran.com/<--breaks down the Quran word-by-word.

So the logical step for me is to ask Muslims who live this book every day to hear what they think.

But coming here I see so much hate and so much ignorance it is confusing for me.

I probably didn't help but that's because I'm new. With the help of God, I will be much nicer in the near future.

I read these comments which are so ridiculously wrong it is truly astonishing.

I want to ask "how so?" but then we'd have to pick at everything that's already been said. I suppose we'll see.

And then there are people like you, questioning my motives and trying to make me look stupid, blunt and a troll.

Questioned your motives, yes. It seemed to me like you were trying to rile people up without considering their viewpoints. Trying to make you look stupid, blunt and a troll, no. I was simply trying to point out that you may have been rude and saying things without any knowledge. But like I said before, we'll see. Prove me wrong.

As I have said in my intro, I might seem rude, but it is being straight.

There's a difference between being straightforward and being rude, imho. shrug

I don't lie - at least not knowingly - and I don't play games.

Ok, cool. We'll see.

handshake

StopS

As I have explained many times I have read and studied all common Islamic texts plus some scholars and some opinions and rulings. Because I don't live in a Muslim majority country at the moment I can't go to the Imam or the Islamic Cultural Centre like I used to.

That's probably the first problem. Imams and Scholars hardly follow the book at all.

When you start looking into Islam you don't know that. At least I did not.

I have read the Koran with ibn Kathir, al-Jalalayn, Tabari et al. I have read the commentaries usually suggested by Koran teachers.
That usually brings more confusion. At least it did with me when I did something similar.

At times, you need to. If a Muslim tells me the Koran does not use creation to create humans, but embryology and comes with the craziest "translations" I have no other recourse but to check with the experts. And they are experts and called scholars for a reason. Plus the lisan al-arab and the Hans Wehr dictionary.

On top of the 29 single letter "verses" approximately 20% of the Koran is not understood by anybody. Another 30% is ambiguous. Which is why we have different groups and sections within the Islamic community.
There are different groups and sections because of outside literature from the Quran. I.e. Hadith and tafsir.

Erm, not quite. Ali's caliphate started centuries before the hadiths were ever assembled. There is no Muslim literature for another 60 or 70 years afaik.

This means the Koran requires interpretation.
Or perhaps we're putting interpretation where it doesn't need it?

6151 I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. ... parents, good treatment, do not kill your children out of poverty
If you read that it is prohibited to treat your parents well and you have to kill children it does not make much sense. So interpretation is a necessity.

The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these times, or it does not say females, cover your bodies except hands and feet, it does not say fast according to your possibilities, when in countries where the sun does not rise or set for months, so interpretation is essential.

As a non-Muslim living in a Muslim majority country I feel compelled to learn as much as I can about the culture which stops my wife from going out alone or driving in KSA or forcing a non-Muslim to cover her body as conformance with local culture when the same people who demand compliance with their culture don't respond with the same courtesy when in my country.
Where are you from? Did you decide to live in a Muslim country and then regret it later?

From South Africa. Well, I was asked if I could help and they offered a good package so I agreed. And also, I grew up in Tehran, so I did not have much choice there.

Looking at the history of the Koran I find discrepancies.
Did you know that the Quran's entire history is all based on hadith? I tried to find the answer to this too.

Looking at the contents I find discrepancies.
Like what? Have you read other translations? When I'm confused, I usually look at these three websites for that particular verse.

http//quran.com/ <--Traditional translations
http//www.quranix.net/<--Quran Only translations (i.e. Free-minds, Edip and RK)
http//corpus.quran.com/<--breaks down the Quran word-by-word.

No, I am talking about historical discrepancies. The Koran says the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham, 2125 ff , Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying) Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).
He lived 1000 kms North.
If I understand this correctly, it says that Mecca, where the Kaaba is located, existed then, when there is no evidence for this in historical records. The fruits and olives mentioned can't really stem from Mecca, which offers drinking water from wells, but not sufficient for irrigation in this arid area.

I have not come across Quranix, thanks.
The others I know quite well and as a multiple versions one I prefer http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/41/1/default.htm with 42 versions.

inquisitivetrini

When you start looking into Islam you don't know that. At least I did not.

True. That's just the usual structure of organized religion, so many will automatically assume that the book is being followed. But think about it. Do Christian scholars follow everything in their book? Or Hindu ones for that matter? Some do and many don't, it seems. I witnessed that first hand growing up in a Christian family.

At times, you need to. If a Muslim tells me the Koran does not use creation to create humans, but embryology and comes with the craziest "translations" I have no other recourse but to check with the experts. And they are experts and called scholars for a reason. Plus the lisan al-arab and the Hans Wehr dictionary.

I think that's a great way to point out how organized religion is set up. When people have to depend on a priest, scholar or expert in order to know what God thinks, that automatically sets up partners with God, imho. Plus, I understand that while many Islamic scholars study for several years to get their position, many also rise to the top through corruption. If you feel more comfortable talking with them, that's up to you. Whatever way gives you a new perspective and gets you closer to the answers you seek.

Erm, not quite. Ali's caliphate started centuries before the hadiths were ever assembled. There is no Muslim literature for another 60 or 70 years afaik.

I didn't realize that. Thanks for giving me that insight. I'll look into that more.

6151 I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. ... parents, good treatment, do not kill your children out of poverty
If you read that it is prohibited to treat your parents well and you have to kill children it does not make much sense. So interpretation is a necessity.

6151 Say "Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."

If you're saying that this verse is saying DONT be kind to parents, DO kill children, etc, then you would have to apply the same grammatical structure to "that you should not set anything with Him" which would mean that God IS asking you to set up partners with Him. But the Quran makes it clear that this is forbidden.

The Koran does not say Muslims pray 5 times at these times, or it does not say females, cover your bodies except hands and feet, it does not say fast according to your possibilities, when in countries where the sun does not rise or set for months, so interpretation is essential.

Absolutely! So where are these suggestions coming from if it's not in the Quran?

From South Africa. Well, I was asked if I could help and they offered a good package so I agreed. And also, I grew up in Tehran, so I did not have much choice there.

South Africa? Very cool. I hope things work out for you with your living situation. I personally don't believe that it's justified for Muslims to impose their religion on anyone.

2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in God, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

No, I am talking about historical discrepancies. The Koran says the Kaaba was originally built by Abraham, 2125 ff , Take as your place of worship the place where Abraham stood (to pray). And We imposed a duty upon Abraham and Ishmael, (saying) Purify My house for those who go around and those who meditate therein and those who bow down and prostrate themselves (in worship).

Absolutely agree. There is no historical basis for the Kabba in Mecca and many anti-Muslims will use this to defame Islam. Here's an example of an article here http//www.historyofmecca.com/index.htm

And this has been talked about in articles on the main free-minds website, too. If you're curious, here are the links, but they're long. What can I say? I like to read.

http//www.free-minds.org/pilgrimage-lost-legacy-abraham
http//free-minds.org/where-was-mohammed

The others I know quite well and as a multiple versions one I prefer http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/41/1/default.htm with 42 versions.

42 versions?! That's a lot! Lol. Thanks for that link as well.

Peace.

StopS

6151 Say "Come let me recite for you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."

If you're saying that this verse is saying DONT be kind to parents, DO kill children, etc, then you would have to apply the same grammatical structure to "that you should not set anything with Him" which would mean that God IS asking you to set up partners with Him. But the Quran makes it clear that this is forbidden.

You tell me what it says. I see that it tells you what is forbidden.
That's why I used it as an example why interpretation is essential.

Absolutely! So where are these suggestions coming from if it's not in the Quran?

You tell me.

Thanks for the links, which, I must admit, show me pages on free-minds I have not seen before.

inquisitivetrini

You tell me what it says. I see that it tells you what is forbidden.
That's why I used it as an example why interpretation is essential.

It says

Setting up partners with God is forbidden
Be kind to your parents
don't kill children for fear of poverty; God provides for you and them.
Do not come near any kind of lewdness
Do not kill, unless it's in justice

I personally don't see a need for interpretation here. It's pretty straightforward from my point of view. Are there any other verses that are unclear to you? I like to list things out like I did just now in order to make sure I understand.

Thanks for the links, which, I must admit, show me pages on free-minds I have not seen before.

Oh so you've read them? You had said If I understand this correctly, it says that Mecca, where the Kaaba is located, existed then, when there is no evidence for this in historical records. The fruits and olives mentioned can't really stem from Mecca, which offers drinking water from wells, but not sufficient for irrigation in this arid area.

The Quran never says that the "Kabba" is located in "Mecca". And it's obvious that the history does not match up in order to support this.

From what I've understood, the town in Saudi Arabia became named as "Mecca" after the completion of the Quran. Which means they could have easily hijacked the word. So the only thing out there supporting that Mecca really exists at all is Hadith and faith. Not a solid foundation in my opinion.

A hadith search I just did on Mecca http//sunnah.com/search/mecca

Seven pages long (which is actually shorter than I thought it would be!).

An interesting story of supposed Abraham in Mecca when there's no archaeological evidence

http//sunnah.com/bukhari/60#43 yuck

peace

sonnie

It seems you need more guidance than me. And to top it off with a no-go question like "how did everything come to be..." shows you have never done any research and have never looked left or right of what is going on in this world.

Sorry, I didnt mean to talk down to you, I can see you are getting emotional.

Thermodynamics? Who? Where? I was talking cosmology.

You mentioned "-"the sum of every proton, electron, neutron, photon right now"

The 1st law of thermodynamics covers energy transfer, not particle physics. So before you condescendingly make statements regarding my intelligence and knowledge, please first check if you are talking about the same thing I am, ok?

Conservation of energy (and ultimately conservation of mass) is the basis for the "sum of everything is 0" theory. It applies to all matter including particles OR galaxies. Please read hawkins' work.

Also, I challenged your knowledge, never your intelligence.... you are very defensive.

I asked you 4 questions

What is truth manifested?
Can you tell me the opposite?
Truth non-manifested?
Truth spiritual?
All Truth Manifested = all physical things (that can be measured and quantified)... aka reality
Opposite of truths manifested is something that doesn't exist in real life. A ghost. The lockness monster. Big Foot...
Examples of Truths not Manifested = ideas and concepts of things in your mind that may be true, but can never physically exist
I don't know what truth spiritual could possibly mean

It can't be reality because that would make my reality different from your and everybody else's.

Reality is truth. The screen you are staring at right now? exists. It is true. This is a small part of the entire reality. Please review the first paragraph in Wikipedia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

And your answer is "yes"?
I showed you why your statement as it was is nonsensical and you still answer with "yes"?

Please quote the statement which is nonsensical. All I did was try to explain that the Qur'an defines ?God? as ?reality?.

Cheers

zulf81

I would like to apologize to everybody reading this post regarding my participation in the bickering that StopS provoked me into. The fact is that I am very passionate about God, the Quran, and discovering the truth. After falling for StopS?s childish behavior, I realized that I was behaving just like him, and that my behavior was detracting from sharing my idea with all of you. It?s because of this, that I think it?s important for everyone to understand where I am coming from, in order to appreciate my thought process.

Well let?s start from the beginning I was born and raised in Bahrain to an American mother, and a Pakistani father. I finished up high school in the U.S., and attended college in Indiana. After finishing college, I was commissioned as an Infantry Officer in the United States Army, and I was deployed to Afghanistan as an Infantry Platoon Leader.

During my tour, I was almost blown up by land mines, and was a foot away from being shot in the head by an AK-47 round. I saw Afghans suffering as a result of years of war, and I saw the harm done by the Taliban first hand. It bugged the hell out me that these people were committing their crimes in the name of God, so I set out to find a way to stop Muslims from following these people. I spent my free time reading about all the evil committed by those claiming to be doing God?s work, and I began searching for an explanation that satisfied my mind. I finally found my answer when I discovered free-minds.org This Islam preached free thinking, and it backed up every one of its points using the Quran only. The most important thing that I learned was how to think freely, and over time I applied the idea of free thinking to everything. After discovering this approach to Islam, I went to law school to further develop my ability to think independently, and freely about any topic.

I began using my education to exam the Quran, and I began noticing a pattern of God referring to himself as the truth. The interesting thing was that I also noticed the same trend in the Bible, the Torah, and other religious texts. I figured this wasn?t a coincidence, so I started thinking about what this could mean to the everyday person who honestly contemplated the meaning of this pattern for themselves. My answer was that truth simply referred to everything that IS, and falsehood is simply fantasy or that which IS NOT. I realized the simple beauty of what God was saying, and I wanted to do a thorough study to support my beliefs. While trying to put together a complete analysis of this idea, I realized that it was much too complicated of an issue for me to put together on my own. Instead of just keeping it to myself however, I thought that I would throw the idea out there, to see if anyone would get the gist of what I was trying say, and I was glad to see that some of you did.

Unfortunately, I was caught off guard when StopS began acting like a clown, and I began trying to prove something that I had no intent on trying to prove any further in the first place. The truth here is a concept about the nature of reality, and its not a definition established by a philosopher sitting in a University. All of you know what the truth conceptually is, and you all know what it isn?t. You don?t need a dictionary, and you don?t need any authority to define anything for you. All you need to do is think about what it means, because you?re actually doing it right now by thinking freely about your religion, faith and reality. So don?t let these authoritative clowns make you think their way, think your way, and think freely.

Peace

good_logic

Peace zulf81.

I welcomed you here few posts back. I believe Qoran is the word of God and following any " Men s books" is idolworship.

However, I would like to add that God requires us to take his message seriously!

Please browse
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/test-page/

I look forward to your views/ discussion/ ...

Peace and friendship.

hawk99

I would like to apologize to everybody reading this post regarding my participation in the bickering that StopS provoked me into. The fact is that I am very passionate about God, the Quran, and discovering the truth. After falling for StopS?s childish behavior, I realized that I was behaving just like him, and that my behavior was detracting from sharing my idea with all of you. It?s because of this, that I think it?s important for everyone to understand where I am coming from, in order to appreciate my thought process.
Peace

"a wise man and a fool were arguing in an alley when two friends happened to be walking by and saw them,
one of the friends asked the other, "which is the fool" the other friend replied "I cannot tell the difference!

Peace O0

Zulf

"a wise man and a fool were arguing in an alley when two friends happened to be walking by and saw them,
one of the friends asked the other, "which is the fool" the other friend replied "I cannot tell the difference!

Peace O0

Wonderful saying! I will use this on myself.

Zulf

Peace zulf81,

I think it is interesting to ponder of the meaning of 'shirk' in the light of 'truth'.
In order to not be forced by one's own self to react to everything, one need to study the nature of the mind (from a bigger perspective), and then work on freeing oneself, which just happens to be the same as moving closer to the truth of reality, closer to Allah. We can discuss this at a later point.

Peace

GODsubmitter

Why not just this

If they reject you, then say, "I have my works, and you have your works. You are innocent of anything I do, and I am innocent of anything you do."

Shabat shalom.