The God of the Quran is a Fact
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Peace,
It is not for us to guide anyone, that is up to God. There are no shortcuts to faith,
each one of us who have attained certainty have done so by turning to God.
If one has not turned to God, there can be no path to God until it becomes evident
that one must travel the path. Faith is a personal journey for each of us. There is
nothing to prove. Surah 109 must be taken with the Gravity and importance intended
by our creator.You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). Any charity you give is for your own good. Any charity you give shall be for the sake of GOD. Any charity you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.
Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.
Each one has access to the scriptures. The words of God are no longer hidden,
everyone can decide for themselves how they should live their lives.We have revealed the scripture through you for the people, truthfully. Then, whoever is guided is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray goes astray to his own detriment. You are not their advocate.
There is no dispute between us.
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve. -
Peace,
It is not for us to guide anyone, that is up to God. There are no shortcuts to faith,
each one of us who have attained certainty have done so by turning to God.
If one has not turned to God, there can be no path to God until it becomes evident
that one must travel the path. Faith is a personal journey for each of us. There is
nothing to prove. Surah 109 must be taken with the Gravity and importance intended
by our creator.You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides whoever chooses (to be guided). Any charity you give is for your own good. Any charity you give shall be for the sake of GOD. Any charity you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.
Most people, no matter what you do, will not believe.
Each one has access to the scriptures. The words of God are no longer hidden,
everyone can decide for themselves how they should live their lives.We have revealed the scripture through you for the people, truthfully. Then, whoever is guided is guided for his own good, and whoever goes astray goes astray to his own detriment. You are not their advocate.
There is no dispute between us.
No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.
Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.Salaam
Absolutely! We're only supposed to invite mankind to the House (bayt) of ALLAAH.
Salaam -
Salaam
Absolutely! We're only supposed to invite mankind to the House (bayt) of ALLAAH.
SalaamAgreed
Peace farida,
Who can utter better words than one who invites to GOD, works righteousness, and says, "I am one of the submitters"?
Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
Yes we are to invite, but we have to also be able to discern who is sincere and who is not.
With it, GOD guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the paths of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
The only ones to respond are those who listen. GOD resurrects the dead; they ultimately return to Him.
They said, "If only a certain sign could come down to him from his Lord!" Say, "GOD is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know."
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Peace, IAMOP.
Due to not having an unlimited supply of time at the moment, I'll touch on your points briefly, if that's alright with you...
You are correct in stating that the Qur'aan doesn't directly mention a talking snake, even though it does expound on the (fictional) Genesis story of the Bible. The problem, though, is the Qur'aanic position on the genesis story itself. According to the Qur'aan, it confirms the Bible and its testimonial accounts
To you We sent the book, in truth, confirming the book that came before it and guarding it in safety. (Q. 54
The "book that came before it" is speaking in reference to the prescribed law of the Judaic people - e.g. Torah. If the Qur'aan confirms the Torah, even to the extent of 'guarding it in safety', and the Torah speaks of talking snakes, then the Qur'aan is inadvertently acknowledging the existence of talking snakes too! But that's neither here nor there...
I started a thread concerning the Earth being flat, according to the Qur'aan. Therefore, I'd rather not touch on that point at this time, as it may need to be quite extensive and I don't have sufficient time at the moment. I also spoke in connection to the sun setting in 'murky water' in a previous thread. My position regarding your position is simple enough - your position discredits the Qur'aan! Since the Qur'aan claims to be "clear" (e.g. Q. 111; 1689) and 'fully detailed' (e.g. Q. 6114; 413), yet you're claiming that these passages can't be taken literally, then the Qur'aan obviously isn't as clear as it attempts to give itself credit for. In fact, based on your own position, the Qur'aan can be quite confusing.
Peace...
To begin with, may I ascertain your status do you believe in an absolute truth (i.e. God)/fact or not? I ask because of course these are two opposing tinted lenses that will entirely colour a debate.
The first point I will not touch on as it is null; the quran confirms the Bible and also exposes any contradictions that its scholars created in its interpretation/translation. God never commands us to yield to falsehood.
Lost in translation?
Then the second point about murky water is also null if we remember 1736. We do not see reality the way it is, but we do see it the way we are, that is to say we see reality through our reality tunnel.
God gave us brains and sense and to even hold this point you have to throw out all sense. I remember a hadeethist on here asking "where does my forearm end for wudu, show from the quran", committing the same crime of inanity as one would have to uphold this. If people of times gone by saw it as literal then that is the limitation of their reality tunnel more so than the fact of the book.Then I noticed you asked Good Logic a question and I did not see it being responded to. I'll answer for him/her YES, a truth-acceptor (muslim) who does not even know Arabic is still more intimate with the quran than a truth-rejector (kafir) who is an Arabic scholar.
It's an interesting question. Let's put it this way our brain stores data in an abstract non-spoken language. To transfer the data into the outside world it becomes speech and hence encoded into various languages. A truth-rejector does not have the necessary abstract data in their mind to compare to the spoken Arabic. In the quran it is said that there is a veil over such persons preventing them from grasping it. While the truth-acceptor does have the data from sincere exploration of God-consciousness. ThusBut nay! I swear by the falling of stars; And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;
Most surely it is an honored Quran, In a book that is protected,
None shall touch/grasp/grok it save the pure/sincere/clean ones.Another analogy let's say we have an expert mathematician speaking English, and we have a total layman speaking Chinese. They are both trying to understand a book written in Chinese. Who will understand it more than the other? The solution of course depends on the expertise of both. But the fact of the matter is, the content is what matters far above the language. A person who believes and meditates and sees the clear light of the self within themselves has a lamp illumining their path, this a truth-rejector does not have. They are clouded by their own desire for greatness a desire we all share but not all of us are clouded by.
Science
Now you're just being silly... laugh For the record, I've very schooled in physics. In fact, I went through an entire physics discipline study, prior to switching over to biology and philosophy (those are my passions, I'll say)... So, trust me, I've very familiar with how physical laws work in connection to the universe. If your position concerning these 'miraculous' happenings is based on the idea that these things are 'implausible but possible', then you're being foolish. Those types of things DON'T happen, no matter how much you wish they did. If you were as versed in physics as you claim to be, then you'd know that changes and adaptations happen in accordance with a system of "laws". There's nothing magical or miraculous about anything. And, in reality, the accumulation of information through science is generally based on observable factors, not wishful thinking. Is it possible for my wall to transform into a giraffe? Ummm, it depends on your position concerning possibilities. Is it plausible? Absolutely not, and anyone who isn't clouded by foolish religious convictions about divine miracles would tell you the same thing!
Lastly, if you're going to present your view concerning the Qur'aan and its scopes, be completely honest. The Qur'aan doesn't say anything about string theory, M-theory, quantum theory, or anything else in relation to that. If it did, it wouldn't have taken people 1,400 years of reading the Qur'aan to figure it out!
Peace,
Ahmad
I am not going to challenge your education level, as intelligence shows itself not in terms of grades but in terms of truthful results. Underlined and emphasised in red is the sentence via which the crux of both our arguments establishes itself. Ironic isn't it? You use that statement to mean that reality is more mundane, I use that statement to say that reality is entirely magical.
As for this statement "Those types of things DON'T happen, no matter how much you wish they did." - I would almost have agreed with you just three years ago but let me tell you my friend, you are talking to the wrong guy here ;D. To me, these things do happen. I have had many hair raising experiences which anybody could call a "miracle" in the quranic definition. Of one particular experience of Clear Light, I still bear the physical mark to watch your body change in front of your very eyes, to wake up with the same change every day from then on. Presenting this argument to me shows me that you simply have not experienced that aspect of reality. Neither did I a little while ago. But anyway wrong guy. Go tell that to someone else, it doesn't jive with me. To me these are not miraculous nor are they magical. They are avenues of reality which most people do not experience because they wilfully blind themselves to it and pretend that God is silent.
As for the last part Yes it does. I can only point to several verses (e.g. 211 that point towards a universe centred around the processing of information which is continually expanding and will reach a point of finality after which it will be contracted in a specific fashion analogous to rolling up a scroll for writings (21104). I do not know what you read herein but what I see is AdS/CFT. It points towards the dataverse which we are only just now coming to understand in the world of digital physics.
And let us look at the oath earlier in 5675 "But nay! I swear by the falling of stars; And most surely it is a very great oath if you only knew;". Did the people of times gone by know about the falling of stars aka gravitational curvature? The word used for 'falling' also refers to positioning and we know in G.R. that the position & mass of a star is intimately connected to its acceleration.
Fact of the matter is that we have two possible interpretations quran is false or quran is true. If it is false then there are myriad ways for it to be false. If it is true then it must be 100% true and there is only one way for its truth to manifest. And this truth of it must match the scientific account as God's way (sunatullah) is a single self-consistent way.
peace
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Peace, good logic.
To answer your questions, YES, of course I want evidence for the existence of God. I think everyone wants evidence for his existence. Does this mean that I believe he doesn't exist? I haven't made any type of affirmative declarations for his nonexistence, have I? I just said I wanted evidence for his existence... Does wanting evidence for his existence mean that I can't understand the books that he has (allegedly) authored, such as the Qur'aan and Torah? Of course not! That's like saying that you'll never be able to understand Shakespearean poetry unless you're related to the late writer!
Contrary to your assertion, "real arrogance" is claiming to have the facts (truth), when you actually only have faith (belief). Arrogance is claiming that you know the answers to all of life's questions, simply because you've read ONE BOOK that was written by Middle-Eastern nomads about 1,400 years ago in a language you can't even understand - and that this makes you wiser than those who've dedicated their lives to examining and investigating the world around them and discovering verifiable truths through science. Arrogance is promoting the "I'm right, you're wrong" position, placing your judgments upon everyone who disagrees with your personal theological position, even though it can't be verified by anything other than your own religious book!
Denying your "creator" is arrogance? How can this be formulated as an objective conclusion, especially if there's no evidence for the existence of this "creator"? He provides everything for me? Again, how? He doesn't put money in my pocket or food on my table to feed my family; I have to do these things for myself. He doesn't wake me up in the morning; my alarm clock (and my biological clock) does that. He doesn't teach me anything; my reading, studying and investigative skills do that for me. I can invoke him five times daily, but he doesn't answer me. I can get on my knees and beg him for water, but he doesn't quench my thirst. I can even take a basic measure of asking him to make the rain stop during a storm; but this doesn't stop my clothes from getting soaked when I go outside... So, tell me - what exactly does he (God) do for me? And more emphatically, what does he do for me that I can't do for myself?
Real arrogance is claiming that, despite the critical lack of evidence for his existence, YOUR god is the only true god, and anyone who doesn't subscribe to his existence is worthy of being thrown into a scorching pit for all eternity.
Peace,
Ahmad
I want to apologize for stirring everyone up with this topic. I did want to provoke thought, but I didn't want people bickering and I'm not criticizing, because I participated in it as well in the beginning of this discussion. I think we would all agree that enlightenment in regards to God, and in general; is a personal journey. We cannot force people to believe anything, unless they are open to believing. It is true that belief should be based on reason, but reason cannot grasp everything, and as such we still have controversy over the existence of God.
The Quran, if memory serves, states that in creation are signs of God's existence, it doesn't say proof. In fact God repeatedly mentions that people are not satisfied without proof.
The universe was created at the point of the 'Big Bang', which in physics was the creation event. At that point, matter, the laws of physics, and space-time came into existence. E=MC^2 matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be converted into energy. So what existed prior to the Big Bang? Energy, because matter didn't exist at that point. That energy is all-powerful, because it created our Universe, meaning that it created everything that exists. That energy existed prior to time, and it will exist after this universe is long gone. Now it is up to you, the individual, to decide if that all-powerful energy is a conscious God or not. To do that, I believe, you must look to creation, and ask yourself Is this the result of an infinite number of coincidences, or is there an order, an intelligence that is driving everything.
The Quran has guided me to this point, and upon reflection, I do, unquestionably believe God exists. I see genius in everything in creation, and I can't personally fathom the idea that this is all an accident. For me I believe that accepting the idea that creation was an accident, is a leap of faith, and to you it may be the other way round. But again, everyone is free to decide on their own, and they have a human responsibility to decide on their own based on reason.I watch a lot of documentaries to help me understand things, and I was watching a particular documentary where Steven Hawkings stated that to ask what existed before the 'Big Bang' doesn't make any sense because time came into being at the point of the 'Big Bang', but E=MC^2 states that matter is converted from energy, and it cannot be created or destroyed. The Quran says that He gave us life, and to Him we return. We are all creations of that energy, and if the 'Big Crunch' is the end state of the Universe, then our essence will return to that source.
The bottom line is that I believe if we don't corrupt the earth, if we genuinely seek and uphold the truth, if we contribute towards betterment; then we are walking the path towards God, and towards true belief.Peace be upon you, I wish you the best on your journey towards personal enlightenment, and again I apologize for instigating any animosity that my post has initiated.
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I want to apologize for stirring everyone up with this topic. I did want to provoke thought, but I didn't want people bickering Peace be upon you, I wish you the best on your journey towards personal enlightenment, and again I apologize for instigating any animosity that my post has initiated.
Peace zulf81,
Welcome back! Don't worry about the differences of opinion as they are normal
and should be used as source for growth.Trust God