The God of the Quran is a Fact

Zulf

Whew! It looks as though I need to take a step back. I am really sorry for mistaking your reply as being serious, but I have heard the most incredible claims recently - not necessarily on this forum.

laugh
No worries at all. I was in a mood yesterday to create a little stir. And I can totally relate to what you're saying about hearing the most incredible things, and not just recently. Anyhow, as long a people can discuss things keeping their heads cool and egos subdued, different perspectives, ideas and opinions make life more interesting.
Kind regards,

good_logic

Peace StopS.

Quote I need glasses, an ear-piece, a toupet, a pacemaker, an artificial hip, orthopaedic shoes, a liver transplant and after my wisdom-teeth were removed, I still needed tooth fillings and a crown. The only piece still intact and 100% functional is my foreskin. The hair growing out of my ears always grows back - even though I don't need it but the finger I need - does not grow back. What on Earth gives you the idea I am designed?

You are absolutely right we are not perfect.

God s description of some humans Deaf, Dumb and Blind. They do not comprehend?

Thank you and Peace.

StopS

Peace StopS.

Quote I need glasses, an ear-piece, a toupet, a pacemaker, an artificial hip, orthopaedic shoes, a liver transplant and after my wisdom-teeth were removed, I still needed tooth fillings and a crown. The only piece still intact and 100% functional is my foreskin. The hair growing out of my ears always grows back - even though I don't need it but the finger I need - does not grow back. What on Earth gives you the idea I am designed?

You are absolutely right we are not perfect.

God s description of some humans Deaf, Dumb and Blind. They do not comprehend?

Thank you and Peace.

Well, you covered part of the issue. Being dumb is a different story and ambiguous. Does the Koran in Arabic specify whether it means mute or retarded?
Now if a god created humans imperfect, how could that imperfection lead to punishment?
Are you implying that because we are imperfect it is an indication for design? An imperfect design? On purpose?

And galaxies collide because they are created imperfect?
And stars explode because they are created imperfect?

sonnie

All you have done is tell me that energy and gravity as well as quantum physics have to comply with 1st law of thermodynamics. Have you been able to prove this? No, you merely assert this.
Now how can I prove that you are wrong in your perception? There is no scientist who says "you can't apply thermodynamics to particle physics."
So I have tried to show you what really happens. I have shown you sources which do not substantiate your view, but mine. I have no other way of showing you that thermodynamics don't apply here.

So, basically what you are saying is that you have no proof to back up you claims (which are pretty ridiculous). lol, I have known this from the beginning. No amount of explaining will get you out of how absurd you sound. Energy is always conserved; this is the first LAW of thermodynamics. lol, you write one thing, but then right after you finish explaining that, you go on to say the opposite?
I let it go the last couple of times ...but get real.

if you say Allah=reality, why not use the word reality we are used to? Why invent a new word for reality, which has no universal definition?

In English, you are free to do so. Who is stopping you?

Haha, my defence??? Now you are seriously going off the rails! If coulour is an adjective, what is red or all the other colours? If I say "Car is Speed" is speed also an adjective?

Actually, I also find this hilarious as well.
Yes the word ?Color? is in fact a noun; but ?red?, ?green?, ?yellow? are not. You said, ?it not correct to assign a descriptive term or adjective as a noun.?. This is hilarious because; one, ?reality? is not a so-called ?descriptive terms or an adjective" ?and two, the stuff I am saying is so easy to understand, but it seems like you just can?t comprehend it.

If I say the moon is made from blue cheese. Can I verify that without actually verifying the actual composition of the moon? Yes, because we can sometimes validate what something is not, before being able to discuss what is is. Have you heard of an elimination process?

No actually. I have never heard of your ?elimination process?? In science we have this thing called the ?scientific method? ...ever heard of that? When you create a hypothesis, you can?t just reject it willy nilly. There are these things called ?experiments? and ?results?, have you ever heard of those? You might want to read this paragraph a few times to let it sink in?
Since you like links so much, here?s a link to a flow chart designed for children
http//i49.tinypic.com/2mq6b8y.jpg
Your method is not logical and apparently below the level of elementary school children. Again, you don?t even understand your own arguments, and keep providing contradictory statements.

Are you really in a position to give me any advice? So far you have only embarrassed yourself. But look, I am not interested in personal fights. I want to know what people think.

Yea? / I never realized how embarrassing it is to use the scientific method. Oh please teach me your "reject this on a whim" method rotfl

You are trying to tell me there is a reason why you consider a god to be real and a fact. Is thermodynamics the reason? No, I don't think so. Is grammar the deciding factor? No, I don't think so.

More assumptions? Here it is in plain English again I don?t believe in any god; Allah is literally reality.

So why don't we handle this like adults and take a structured approach and do this one step at a time? You started off by asking me "do you think you live in the Matrix lol"

Seems like you took that seriously

Now we know a bit more about each other and maybe you can give me your strongest argument why you believe god is a fact? Try to use a factual approach and first check the validity of your claims. If that's too much for you, I also understand.

Ok, sure? I can do that, but can you? Let?s take it 1 step at a time
I don?t believe in the western notion of ?gods? or ?God?? in other words, no deities exist. Zues does not exist. The jewish god does not exist. There is only existence itself. So now please explain to me what your belief is in as it pertains to god.

PS
If you still struggle with fact, reality, truth etc, here's something which might help you http//www.atheism-analyzed.net/Atheist%20Talking%20Points%20reality%20truth%20fact.htm

This just looks like a website you made in MS-Word by summarizing my points, lol. I wouldn?t be surprised if your name is Hugo Lake (the admin of this site). If that?s true, that is really pathetic. Perhaps if this was actually a sincere gesture I would actually have thanked you.

sonnie

checkmate

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace.

Personally, I don't understand the basis of depicting God simply as "reality". Reality can't be presented as a living or thinking entity, and it's limited to its own established mandates, characterized by physical laws. If this is our perception of God, then we may as well be atheists - e.g. people who don't believe in supernatural deities (gods) and/or entities. A pantheistic depiction of God is nearly identical to an atheistic one; the separation isn't characterized by a difference in beliefs and opinions, but by the terminology being used. Where a pantheist says "god", a skeptic says energy, reality, the universe, etc. And, at this point, the word "god" is far too broad of a term to designate it accurately to one centralized figure or entity. Different people have various views regarding what a "god" is, to the degree that using the word can't be used to define anything on a practical level anymore. Essentially, the word itself is ambiguous and, therefore, useless when seeking to identify a person or idea. When I say, "God is this or that," I'm really describing the personification of MY god, not a universal one - because everyone's ideas concerning God are different. And, as we all know, there's no way to authenticate the supremacy of one god over the others. We can say that 'God is the truth', but everyone has a different idea of what "truth" really is, making that perception overly subjective at best. We may as well give up the use of the word "god", and replace it with its physical or philosophical equivalents - e.g. energy, reality, universe, truth, love, the universal mind, etc.

That's just my viewpoint, though...

Peace,

Ahmad

sonnie

Salaam Ahmed )
Yes, you are correct.. everyone does have a different meaning of the word "God". So why even bother using this word? Why not stick to "Allah"?
The quran claims that "Allah is THE truth"; to me this can only mean one thing absolutely, no room for interpretation here. I find that the truth is the truth. What does "truth" mean to you?

Perhaps you are correct and Allah is not reality. This is simply my understanding from the qur'an, and although to me it is clear, I may yet be wrong.

IAMOP

Reality is far beyond the physical. The physical is a new thing in REALITY. So is "time". Anything created is new, it's baby stuff. It is NOT reality. Reality is that which is uncreated, encompasses all creation, and abides by itself that which is truly REAL.

This is where persons go wrong in processing it. I have been accused of polytheism personally by a few beings who simply choose not to understand this crucial caveat. Yet the number of distinct selves or realities or lives or existences or active causative agents I believe in, is LESS than theirs! This is as monotheistic as it gets, in this understanding there is only one ilah. Neither myself nor you exist as independent causative agents - this ultimately is what al-quran calls an 'ilah'; a physical lawmaker. At best we exist with our will as a subset of the will of the omniself.

We must first understand that God's timelessness is not the concept of existing without time. Rather, God encompasses time altogether. So time passes just as it does to us, to God. The difference is that God is 'present' at all parts of it, and is not subject to its flow. Conversely we are only present during a single aspect of it - the here and now. Any being with consciousness higher than 4 dimensions (X,Y,Z,T) would experience this same timelessness. But God is above all beings, regardless.

Just because everyone has ideas of what 'truth' really is does not make their opinions worth an iota of consideration, sorry to say. We have to be harsh and firm with regards to this, the simple fact of the matter is that some people are wrong and some people are correct. You can't change a plane crash by changing your "idea of what truth really is". If I believe that I am not going to die, that does not mean a thing, I will die anyway. If I believe I do not exist, that does not mean a thing, I exist anyway. So we know there is a core of absolute truth pervading all existence WHETHER OR NOT MAN DECIDES TO SUBMIT TO IT OR REMAIN ARROGANT AND HOLD HIS OWN ABSURD RIDICULOUS LIMITED BELIEFS AS ILAH OVER THE SUPREME REALITY.

It is plain and simple there is "something" that is self-existent. And that is reality. That is truth. That is God. That is Self. That is Light. That is Energy. That is Tao. Many names, for one being. The physical universe is not reality. It will perish just as it was created. Refer to 2118. The physical universe was created to solve a question in the immaterial eternal realm what is true, and what is false? What is real and what is unreal? So this verse alone is sufficient proof for anyone willing to heed. Then we have 2130, that the physical universe arose from a singular entity. God does not even describe the characteristics of this singular entity, but simply states that Heaven and Earth were one. And in 2435 we have the direct statement that God is the Light of the heavens and earth. It is certainly not a metaphor - God presents a metaphor right after that in the very same verse, so I ask is the quran not a clear book free of doubt? So in no uncertain terms are we told God is truth. There is a reality outside of time, in which God is solving a question, the answer/method of answering to this question is the physical universe. The question is solved (Be and it is), yet time passes. God is the light of the heavens and earth.

Plain and simple, like I said. Humble yourself, look within, and see the Clear Light of the Void. Everything in existence points to it. Your entire life points to it. All your fears dissolve away if you bear to look at it.

Peace

zulf81

Peace.

Personally, I don't understand the basis of depicting God simply as "reality". Reality can't be presented as a living or thinking entity, and it's limited to its own established mandates, characterized by physical laws. If this is our perception of God, then we may as well be atheists - e.g. people who don't believe in supernatural deities (gods) and/or entities. A pantheistic depiction of God is nearly identical to an atheistic one; the separation isn't characterized by a difference in beliefs and opinions, but by the terminology being used. Where a pantheist says "god", a skeptic says energy, reality, the universe, etc. And, at this point, the word "god" is far too broad of a term to designate it accurately to one centralized figure or entity. Different people have various views regarding what a "god" is, to the degree that using the word can't be used to define anything on a practical level anymore. Essentially, the word itself is ambiguous and, therefore, useless when seeking to identify a person or idea. When I say, "God is this or that," I'm really describing the personification of MY god, not a universal one - because everyone's ideas concerning God are different. And, as we all know, there's no way to authenticate the supremacy of one god over the others. We can say that 'God is the truth', but everyone has a different idea of what "truth" really is, making that perception overly subjective at best. We may as well give up the use of the word "god", and replace it with its physical or philosophical equivalents - e.g. energy, reality, universe, truth, love, the universal mind, etc.

That's just my viewpoint, though...

Peace,

Ahmad

Everyone's definition of God is different, but I believe that it is an impossible quest to attempt to define God. I was writing about an aspect of God, that most could agree upon, but in the end it is up to the individual to try to define God for themselves. I believe that truth is an aspect of God that is a good starting point in trying to understand what he is, and the rest is up to us. The Quran basically says that even if we use all the water on earth for ink, in order to write down what God is, the water would run dry, and we still wouldn't have a fraction of what he is (I don't have the reference on hand, but maybe someone can provide it).

I believe there is a somewhat scientific explanation to the reference above, that would make sense, if one takes for granted that God (the creator) exists. It is generally accepted that the Universe was created at the point of the "Big Bang", after which point matter, the laws of physics, and space-time came into being. Our complete understanding of reality is based on this universe, and its laws. If God exists, and if he created this Universe his being (whatever it is), cannot be subject to the laws of the Universe, because he must be independent of these laws in order to be the creator. Thus it is impossible to fully define something that exists outside the understanding of any intelligent being that is a product of this Universe, so the attempt to define God is a futile quest if he indeed is the creator.

God cannot be proven; but I do believe that he wouldn't stick it to us, by putting us in a position to guess the truth, and punishing us if we guess wrong; that, in my opinion, would be an unjust God. Human beings can only understand our Universe, based on the laws that govern it, and our understanding cannot extend passed that. We can only attempt to understand a "fraction" of God, because we can only try to understand him through his creation, because of his status as the "creator". The Quran says that everything was created in truth, which to me simply means that everything that was created exists in reality. Anything that is falsehood, to me means; that which isn't real, or that which is a figment of our imagination, or that which doesn't exist in reality. I believe in this simple understanding because the Quran was meant to be simple, and easy to understand for those who free their minds. God claims to be the truth manifested, and what I wrote about is my understanding, and that's the great thing about free-thinking; its an individual understanding, whether its right or wrong. I do think there is a certain amount of faith involved, but if we do our best to follow and discover the truth, I believe we are walking the right path, and I believe that we are obeying "God". This is because, if he exists, I don't think he would punish us for that which is beyond our ability to understand. If my understanding is wrong, I hope I gain the wisdom to to realize that, and if its right; I hope to take my understanding to the next level. That's what we're doing on this forum right, trying to think outside the box, and to consider the ideas of others so that we can open our minds to other ways of thinking. If I'm wrong, maybe you find some merit in a part of what I said; and you may discover a new idea that is completely different than the one I put forth. This is how we learn, and this is how we better our understanding.

Thanks for the comment, you made a good point, and that's why I thought I'd throw this out there.

Peace

Lena

I appreciate what you said, you're absolutely right. I'm just trying to do my part to help people think, and I was lowering myself to his level.

Thanks again

Dear Zulf
Re "lowering" yourself, God loves those who are humble.
Quran 2563 The worshippers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speal to them they only utter peace.

Peace

Lena

....various views regarding what a "god" is, to the degree that using the word can't be used to define anything on a practical level anymore. Essentially, the word itself is ambiguous and, therefore, useless when seeking to identify a person or idea. When I say, "God is this or that," I'm really describing the personification of MY god, not a universal one - because everyone's ideas concerning God are different. And, as we all know, there's no way to authenticate the supremacy of one god over the others. We can say that 'God is the truth', but everyone has a different idea of what "truth" really is, making that perception overly subjective at best. We may as well give up the use of the word "god", and replace it with its physical or philosophical equivalents - e.g. energy, reality, universe, truth, love, the universal mind, etc.

That's just my viewpoint, though...

Peace,

Ahmad

Yes Ahmad that is what I was trying to say in an earlier post about truth / reality being perceived differently. Another example, I have lived in cultures where reality is peopled by witches / devils. The witch/devil usually takes the form of a child, a jealous friend, an old women. Witches/devils can walk through walls, suck blood from their victims necks and cause business failures, illness and death. For those who believe in this supernatural world, it is part of their reality. It is their truth, though it may not be my truth. Can we prove if it is truth scientifically?
In Quran, God talks about jinn and angels, a stick turning into a tremendous snake, a hand turning white, striking a rock and 12 springs gushed out, Moses hand turning white. For those who believe in God and his message (the Quran) we accept it is truth, though it may not be an athiest's truth. Can we prove if it is truth scientifically?

zulf81

Dear Zulf
Re "lowering" yourself, God loves those who are humble.
Quran 2563 The worshippers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speal to them they only utter peace.

Peace

I know. I was irritated, so I let my anger get the best of me. It generally takes a lot to take me there, but it happened. I get frustrated with those who don't know how to have a civil discussion, and; like I said, I did participate in his behavior by going back and forth with him. My motives are not to tell people what to believe, that's their own decision; but I do want to provoke thought, and throw out ideas for consideration.

Peace to you

hawk99

Peace,

Welcome back, try not to be distracted from making your point.

O0

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, Lena.

In Quran, God talks about jinn and angels, a stick turning into a tremendous snake, a hand turning white, striking a rock and 12 springs gushed out, Moses hand turning white. For those who believe in God and his message (the Quran) we accept it is truth, though it may not be an athiest's truth. Can we prove if it is truth scientifically?

I think we need to analyze exactly what you mean by an "atheist's truth". There's no given religion known as atheism, and atheists are divided on many concepts. The ONLY accepted viewpoint conjoining them is the nonacceptance of a deity. By all means, some atheists may be willing to accept the Qur'aanic position concerning these 'miracles', viewing them as expressions of 'magic' (for example). An atheist may not accept the idea of a god performing these acts for prophets; but he/she may adopt the idea that there are magicians and sorcerers who can perform these feats. In other instances, an "atheist" may propose the idea that there are 'aliens' who possess control over natural elements and are capable of doing these things, etc. In other words, there's no atheistic position concerning these factors; there are merely rational ones and irrational ones - scientific ones and non-scientific ones.

Now, with regards to your question (e.g. "Can we prove if it is truth scientifically?&quot, I think the answer is no. Sure, we can always attempt to reconcile upheld religious viewpoints with modern science by attempting to make the Qur'aan say something it doesn't actually say, which is what many people do. However, if we go merely based on the text itself, the Qur'aan clearly conflicts with certain aspects of reality and what we know about the world.

Let's propose a theoretical idea. If we took a group of people at birth, excluded them from ALL outside influences, and used the Qur'aan as their only means of moral determination and scientific inquiry and information, then they would have a very distorted view of reality. For starters, from a scientific perspective, they'd perceive the Earth as being flat. They'd think the sun sets in 'murky water' at night. They'd believe in talking snakes and magic sticks that have the capabilities of turning into serpents. They'd believe that people are, with God's power, capable of building clay birds, breathing into them, and making the statues come to life. They'd perceive 'miracles' as being not only possible, but commonplace. They'd feel justified in slaying 'nonbelievers' at every turn, in accordance with Qur'aanic guidance. They'd think it's completely plausible for a man to mount a 'winged horse' (or unicorn, depending on which adaptation you subject yourself to) and fly away to the 'seventh heaven' to meet God and the angels. We'd run into people like them on the street, and by our assessment, those people would be recognized as having extreme forms of mental illness!

Do you disagree?

Peace,

Ahmad

IAMOP

Peace Ahmed Bilal,

I am not sure what you are smoking but it seems to be having quite an interesting effect.

No, anyone who is raised on and lives and breathes TRULY the genuine commandments of the quran, and has 'tahara' and grasps verses such as 1736 will not believe in such ridiculous things.

Maybe someone raised on hadeeth and parrot fashion quran, which is a pandemic in the "Muslim" world. Not a single thing did you write that did not involve either a mistranslation, a verse out of context or total distortion in some way shape or form.

Please do God's book some justice, honestly.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, IAMOP.

I am not sure what you are smoking but it seems to be having quite an interesting effect.

No, anyone who is raised on and lives and breathes TRULY the genuine commandments of the quran, and has 'tahara' and grasps verses such as 1736 will not believe in such ridiculous things.

Maybe someone raised on hadeeth and parrot fashion quran, which is a pandemic in the "Muslim" world. Not a single thing did you write that did not involve either a mistranslation, a verse out of context or total distortion in some way shape or form.

Please do God's book some justice, honestly.

I'm not knocking the book at all. I think it has some great wisdom in it. However, we also need to be reasonable when it comes to the interpretation of the book. The things I mentioned with regards to the Qur'aan are actually written in the Qur'aan. Study the book for yourself. The Qur'aan DOES mention talking snakes, a flat Earth, the sun setting in murky water, magic sticks that turn into serpents, people shaping birds with clay and making them come to life, etc. The hadiyths don't say those things, the Qur'aan does!

If you believe those passages are misinterpreted or mistranslated, please grace us with YOUR translation of the book, so that I can weigh it against all of the nonsense that's presented in nearly all of the other ones. And, if your justification of these passages is based on the assessment that those verses are allegorical, then please present your view of how you determine which Qur'aanic verses are literal and which ones are symbolic.

Thanks in advance.

Peace,

Ahmad

IAMOP

Peace, IAMOP.

I'm not knocking the book at all. I think it has some great wisdom in it. However, we also need to be reasonable when it comes to the interpretation of the book. The things I mentioned with regards to the Qur'aan are actually written in the Qur'aan. Study the book for yourself. The Qur'aan DOES mention talking snakes, a flat Earth, the sun setting in murky water, magic sticks that turn into serpents, people shaping birds with clay and making them come to life, etc. The hadiyths don't say those things, the Qur'aan does!

If you believe those passages are misinterpreted or mistranslated, please grace us with YOUR translation of the book, so that I can weigh it against all of the nonsense that's presented in nearly all of the other ones. And, if your justification of these passages is based on the assessment that those verses are allegorical, then please present your view of how you determine which Qur'aanic verses are literal and which ones are symbolic.

Thanks in advance.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace,

I have not seen anything about a "talking snake" in the quran. So please cite these verses. Flat earth, again I have never seen a single verse that says the Earth is flat in any direct fashion. Then as for the sun setting in murky water, this is where the interpreter's brain has shrivelled up into something useless and decayed so as to declare it literal. Do you remember the verse "they do not estimate God with a just estimate"?

It's a common expression to say X meeting Y at such and such a point, without X actually directly touching Y. That's a consequence of 2D to 3D shadow projection aka parallax effect. Sticks that turn into serpents, so what? Let's put it this way the kafir POV is that the universe is dead stupid useless matter and that they just popped onto this planet by chance. In such a dull universe the happenstance of a stick becoming a serpent is "impossible".

Well, according to physics, the raw mathematical data, the raw facts it is NOT "impossible" in any way shape or form. It is purely a vanishingly low probability event, which the kafir holds to be "impossible". But low probability does not mean "impossible", it means low probability. The same goes for all the miracles described in the quran.

And this is where people's minds go WOOSH because their thinking and self-reasoning has shrivelled up and atrophied and turned into useless matter that can do nothing but consume hedonistically, it gives no real thought. These are not parlour tricks that God is presenting. They are not a case of God saying "look what I can do, haha, magic! Look behind your ear, what's that, it's a dollar!". That is far beside the point.

They are examples, direct proofs that consciousness pervades every quantised block of spacetime. At any point where you are right now, your wall COULD turn into a giraffe and start headbutting you. All that would take is a simple highly specific change to the data structure of the wall and the flow of time i.e. heat flows would take care of the rest. This is exactly the same fashion in which all forms change to other forms. A fire burns a stick and the stick disappears. Nobody calls it "magic". Why? Because we are used to it. All changes in shape in this universe, all happenings, all "miracles", ALL are heat flows.

Now, would you be surprised if someone lit some ashes on fire and they burnt away leaving a perfectly formed stick? Now why would you be surprised? In fact even that is possible. It is a strongly negentropic process but by introducing a sufficient amount of entropy into the environment, even a human could create that very reaction. And in fact we have created something identical to it already - the overunity LED.

You eat food. That food turns into life within your body. The life is literally separated from the death, and the death exits the body as urine and faeces while the life moves forth as amino acids, vitamins, enzymes, etc. It is then refined, and its highest refinement is pure life the seminal essence, the egg. Do you care? No. Because you're used to it. And these are the signs of Allah that He points out to you yet nobody cares. Why do so few give a damn? This is the meaning of "he created you from dust", this is just one meaning and there are many other phenomena that single ayat pertains to.

A dead body can easily be reanimated - easily, to one who is keeping perfect track of the position/momenta of the particles composing it and its live predecessor. Is it nonsense? I think you need to read yourself a lot more physics my friend because if you had read and truly understood, truly grokked the implications of thermodynamics, entropy, information theory, quantum mechanics, you would well and truly perhaps understand that the universe is a lot more magical of a place than meets the eye. God explains in detail the nature of the universe, God explains the caveats and nuances of all the things I have listed in the last sentence but you cannot just read a single sentence and pretend you understand.

A verse can take many many readings of many dense scientific texts to see what it is genuinely saying, believe me. What it appears on the surface as a story book of fables might satisfy some, even some believers. But in actuality there are statements in the quran that are still well beyond modern science and I could point them out to you (e.g. 5675). Even now in the bleeding edge of science we are trying to understand you have ideas like loop quantum gravity, string theory, dynamical triangulations, holographic universe hypothesis. They are described in the most incredibly verbose language, with the most nuanced intricacies, with thousands of intricate equations containing integrals and differentials enough to make anyone cry. When I look at these I see kernels of truth in them. But when I read the quran I see the entire peanut.

What you write off as "nonsense" is clearly to me, as one reasonably schooled in physics and somewhat acquainted with quite a few things as regards the nature of these verses, is something you simply just have not yet got the background to grasp and thereby actually see the truthful sense in. As for the kafirs educated in physics, point to me their arguments and I will show you the flaws in their reasoning too; to the best extent of my knowledge.

peace

good_logic

Peace Ahmad.

In addition to what IAMOP listed, we find a large number of Quranic facts which are proven or theorized by modern science. Here are a few examples of such advance scientific information

The earth is egg-shaped (395, 7930).

The earth is not standing still; it moves constantly (278.

The sun is a source of light, while the moon reflects it (105, 2561, 7116).

The proportion of oxygen diminishes as we climb towards the sky (6125).

The "Big Bang Theory" is confirmed (2130).

The "Expansion of the Universe Theory" is confirmed (5147).

The universe started out as a gaseous mass (4111)

Evolution is a fact; within a given species, evolution is a divinely guided process (2130, 2445, 327-9, 1837, 1528-29, 711, 7113-14).

The man's seminal fluid decides the baby's gender (5345-46).

No Nonsense
Equally miraculous is the absence of any nonsense in the Quran. This is particularly significant in view of the dominance of ignorance and superstition at the time of revelation of the Quran

Peace.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, IAMOP.

Due to not having an unlimited supply of time at the moment, I'll touch on your points briefly, if that's alright with you...

I have not seen anything about a "talking snake" in the quran. So please cite these verses. Flat earth, again I have never seen a single verse that says the Earth is flat in any direct fashion. Then as for the sun setting in murky water, this is where the interpreter's brain has shrivelled up into something useless and decayed so as to declare it literal. Do you remember the verse "they do not estimate God with a just estimate"?

You are correct in stating that the Qur'aan doesn't directly mention a talking snake, even though it does expound on the (fictional) Genesis story of the Bible. The problem, though, is the Qur'aanic position on the genesis story itself. According to the Qur'aan, it confirms the Bible and its testimonial accounts

To you We sent the book, in truth, confirming the book that came before it and guarding it in safety. (Q. 54

The "book that came before it" is speaking in reference to the prescribed law of the Judaic people - e.g. Torah. If the Qur'aan confirms the Torah, even to the extent of 'guarding it in safety', and the Torah speaks of talking snakes, then the Qur'aan is inadvertently acknowledging the existence of talking snakes too! But that's neither here nor there...

I started a thread concerning the Earth being flat, according to the Qur'aan. Therefore, I'd rather not touch on that point at this time, as it may need to be quite extensive and I don't have sufficient time at the moment. I also spoke in connection to the sun setting in 'murky water' in a previous thread. My position regarding your position is simple enough - your position discredits the Qur'aan! Since the Qur'aan claims to be "clear" (e.g. Q. 111; 1689) and 'fully detailed' (e.g. Q. 6114; 413), yet you're claiming that these passages can't be taken literally, then the Qur'aan obviously isn't as clear as it attempts to give itself credit for. In fact, based on your own position, the Qur'aan can be quite confusing.