"No Rituals"? What about 5:6?
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Peace.
I have read a lot of posts from people who apparently interpret things such as salat and hajj as not being "religious rituals" instituted at specific times or places. This is not really a question/comment on salat or hajj, but rather the concept of a "ritual free" Qur'an. Can the washing of certain parts of the body before whatever "salat" is be anything but a physical ritual?
Looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts.
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Hi jtc,
Ritual free? Are rituals bad?
I think rituals are important as they provide continuity for us. We do an action repeatedly in a ritualistic manner. What makes a ritual "holy" is the intention we do the ritual with. Otherwise it is a repeated action. If I do a ritual with the intention to make contact with Allah then it is can provide meaning and cause me to do good in the world.
My question would be why don't you want rituals? Someone in here mentioned the coffee ritual ;D. Kind of like the "fat free" craze. Have you tasted "fat free" ice cream? In order to avoid fat they put all sorts of chemicals in it to get it to have the taste and texture of ice cream. However it is awful when compared to real ice cream. Of course if you don't like ice cream then avoid ice cream. But if you love ice cream, have it in moderation... but have it full fat.
Just my crazy thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Peace Jewishdude.
I'm not for or against rituals; I'm just trying to understand the logic in them if they are even mentioned as a "ritual", and I am trying to understand how the people who have such a problem with "ritual prayer" can be totally fine with washing and wiping parts of their bodies as a command from God.
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Salamun alaykum
Personally I don't see anything wrong with rituals as long as they are not just a mundane set of physical actions. It is my opinion that the physical acts in the Quran are accompanied by non-physical(mental) aspects.
So for example is one feels that salaa is physical then in addition to standing, bowing and prostrating(if this is what is done), one would need to have a clear mind, understand what they are saying and be mentally submissive and humble in addition to being physically humble and submissive. But I feel both the non-physical and physical acts come together to complete the whole.
The problem is that some people just do the physical acts and make them into rituals with no meaning, they are just doing but not capturing the essence of what is being done and that I believe is the real issue. Certain people feel as though the essence is more important the the physical but personally I think they are both equally important.
It is like a person saying they feel happy but not smiling or showing the signs of happiness it becomes an issue of incongruence, and actions and mental state should match up.
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Peace.
I have read a lot of posts from people who apparently interpret things such as salat and hajj as not being "religious rituals" instituted at specific times or places. This is not really a question/comment on salat or hajj, but rather the concept of a "ritual free" Qur'an. Can the washing of certain parts of the body before whatever "salat" is be anything but a physical ritual?
Looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts.
Salam, jtc.
Certainly I've seen some people here in this forum, who assert that the ablution verses (like 56) have been mistranslated by all scholars, and those verses actually don't mean a physical washing of the body parts, but rather a spiritual cleaning.
Peace.
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I think spiritual rituals are everywhere in the life of an Allah conscious individual. They get out of bed thinking and breathing Allah's name(s). They brush their teeth and shower thinking and breathing Allah's name. They prepare and eat their breakfast thinking and breathing Allah's names and so on.
I'm not a subscriber to that rituals are incompatible with islam. When I look at the signs of nature it appears to me that humans on earth are creatures of habit, at least here on earth. So is it so bad to make these habits spiritual experiences that one may consider rituals?
However if rituals mean a practice that everyone has to do in a uniform way in order to bestow special favor in Allah, then I don't subscribe to that as I understand it. I think the guided are guided but that may not mean they all uniformly perform the same habits or rituals. Peace. -
It depends on what you mean by "ritual". For example, technically, brushing one's teeth daily can be classed as a "ritual".
So I assume you mean a "religious ritual" (although I dislike the term "religious". In my view there is nothing inherently wrong with a "religious ritual".
For me, there is only a problem if this ritual has no grounding in reality, i.e. it is illogical, does not result in the claimed benefit, not based on solid evidence in the first place etc........ or a claim is made it is obligatory. Then there can be issues.There are quite a number of "religious rituals" in Traditional Islam that contain these problematic issues, e.g. traditional hajj rituals. Please note, in case this is not obvious, that does not mean all have problems.
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Salam
For me is the verse 5.6 a clear order . I find it hard to conceived this verse differently than concrete.
For me the answer depense on the question, how i define the Salat. I see the Salat of the Quran as a public and common worship, once in the morning and once in the evening.
In the mind the origin of the revelation seems to me the figural washing very logical. A wash in the early morning, before you goes to the Quran reading and common meditation and praise of God - and after the day's work - which in the desert often involves a lot of dust and dirt - the request to clean the exposed body parts before entering the common Salat, is purely practical.
But i certainly never set the spiritual cleaning out of account the spiritual washing of this world's 'dirt' for the contact with God, which I feel is much important.
Rituals must not be bad. As Wakas said, meaningless rituals are sure not accordingly the Quranic teachings. However, certain rituals can reinforce our mind and become an important part of our lives (I am thinking, i.e . rituals for sleep and at last many food-rituals which we execute every day and never question it eat eat
peace peace -
Peace.
I have read a lot of posts from people who apparently interpret things such as salat and hajj as not being "religious rituals" instituted at specific times or places. This is not really a question/comment on salat or hajj, but rather the concept of a "ritual free" Qur'an. Can the washing of certain parts of the body before whatever "salat" is be anything but a physical ritual?
Looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts.
I think this can all be summed with one main problem. Not looking at the world around us and how other nations and other societies understand their religion and not looking at the previous scriptures. There are some Quranist who see the Quran in isolation to the world around them.
What I have found here is that whenever we have an issue where the topic seems to go round and round and round, I also found the answer in the previous scriptures or other relious traditions. I see which one fits with what the Quran says. But many Quranist can not make themselves go there because they can not relate to anything other than the Quran. The problem is these attitudes has a tendency to turn many people away and confirm to them that following the Quran without the Sunnah is a mistake.
However they are a minority. They never find an answer and keep changing their views. It goes in circles but for some reason they do not give up. Maybe its part of a learning experience.
Another reason is many have a standard ritualistic mindset and look for that in the Quran. When they don't find that they then assume maybe its not a ritual. Anotherwords they move from one extreme to another.
All human religions have rituals and rites of some sort. As some commentators here have said. Its what makes us humans.
A rule of thumb with me is that whenever i find something in the Quran that I can not understand but the Quran uses often, I look at Judaic, Islamic, Christian traditions and look at the previous scriptures and look at any academic research i can find and than I see which fits what the Quran says. The Quran encourages us to go around the world and see the world and seek knowledge.
A good example is Qibla. The Quran says both the Jews and Christians have their own Qibla. If you look at Judaic and Christian traditions they actually did. And its about facing a certain direction during prayers. But for some reason many just won't take that. So they go in circles and circles. Maybe they enjoy it that way. But I sense stubborness sometimes.
Also shirk was another issue. The Quran tells us to ask the mushriks about their reasoning. So when i looked at pagan traditions and what their theology and dogma is I can see clearly what shirk is. Because the Quran came down on a pagan and Judaic and even Christian environment, it makes sense to look at these traditions. The problem with Sunni and Shia traditions is they were formed after the Quran so often they are not relevant to what the Quran is talking about.Christianity and Judaism were already formed when the Quran came so i usually go there first. But I always start with the previous scriptures and than see any academic study is out there concerning a topic. If the Quran repeats something many times there will always be an explanation around the corner because its assuming the reader should know. This is a given.
Most Quranist actually do all this. But there are some who take you in circles and you don't really learn anything and debating sometimes feels like they are not searching as much as desiring to be individuals who don't want to listen or take from anybody else.
It could be also because this forum does not have a summarization of all the different interpretations concerning the most discussed issues so people have to go through their own journey. Maybe its a learning experience. We don't have a madhab as such yet where people can actually look at what the different interpretations among Quranist is and see what are the options. We are all pioneers in this and each of us is going through his own journey. This is a religious movement very much in its infancy..
But this is the price of freedom and I will take that any day over a religion where all you ever do is do what you are told and never think for yourself.
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salaam
i have read 56 and i didn't found a ritual there. Just recommandations for washing before salat.
but let suppose it is a ritual.
that does not mean that rituals described in other books have to be integrated to "words of God".Peace
There are no standard rituals as such in other books just like the Quran there are no standard rituals prescribed. Rituals are something we humans do to perform worships. When we are told to brush our teeth, thats not a ritual. When we perform them regularly and in a usual time frame than it becomes a ritual. The Quran tells us to pray. The question is how do we do it.
All scriptures leaves it to the individual to construct his own rituals giving guidleines as to how they should be performed. The problem is some Quranist try to alter the meaning of these commands.
Scriptures talk about praying, fasting, bowing and prostrating, reading scriptures, giving charity and alms, having places of worship, sacrifice of animals to give thanks, having rites and religious ceremonies of praise etc. All religions have this. The pagans however dedicate these rituals to their gods while monotheist dedicate them to God. That is the only real difference between pagan rituals and monotheist rituals. But scriptures leaves it to the individual to perform them they way he sees fit, something that Sunni or Shia Islam does not allow. They want an absolute theocracy where everybody does the same thing at the same time in the same way. Its easier to control people that way by taking away their individuality and freedom to make decisions for themselves. The problem is some Quranist try to alter the meanings of all this by saying it does not mean what is generally understood it means and that these religious terms are something else. They then do not have an answer they can agree on and leave the issue in a limbo. It always follows this pattern.
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I think it is obvious that 56 dictates about a physical cleaning. But this doesn't mean there is a legitimate "religious ritual" in Quran. God may dictate washing hands before dinner but this doesn't let us assume the dinners as rituals. This is same for salat.
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Salam
Many people tend to have a negative connotation with the term ?ritual? maybe due to their experiences or past.. but to say there is no rituals in the Quran well I find it hard to believe.
It all then comes down to how you define ?ritual?
You have pointed out 56, some people would say it?s an idiom to remind people to be clean when they get up.
You mention salat. Is not salat supposed to be a regular act? Is not a regular act defined as a ritual? Specifically it is an act/rite prescribed in the Quran. But how one defines this act may differ. One may say it is a physical ritual act (e.g. like the traditional muslims) another may say it is reading/studying understanding the Quran, or some might say it is another way they connect with God. Just because the method differs it does not make it any less of a ritual. It just makes it a different practised way of the ritual. Does that make sense?
What about the specific remembrance of God before eating? Is that not a ritual? 54, 6118, 6121
Our whole life is a ritual, we sleep we wake and then the things in between.
Does Quran advise us to do mundane rituals with absolutely no meaning unmindfully? I believe not.
So I think people who say there are absolutely no rituals are maybe limiting their definition of rituals to current homogenized procedures which may have little relations/meaning to them.
peace
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Peace.
I have read a lot of posts from people who apparently interpret things such as salat and hajj as not being "religious rituals" instituted at specific times or places. This is not really a question/comment on salat or hajj, but rather the concept of a "ritual free" Qur'an. Can the washing of certain parts of the body before whatever "salat" is be anything but a physical ritual?
Looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts.Peace all,
Some very good comments have been made so far.
We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments,
and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact
Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted
worshipers.Let's not forget that Islam is "ONE OF THE ABRAHAMIC FAITHS" and does not exist
exclusively on its own but is tied to the other Two monotheistic faiths, this is the
common error of exclusive quranists pedantically accepting that same narrow
mindedness that they so much abhor in others. Tauhid, fasting, charity, prayer,
and pilgrimage can be found in the bible.Exodus 64 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of
Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.Ablution is very old and is not "spiritual" no more than facing mecca is "spiritual"
but a ritual washing to prepare the adherant for worship/service. The confusion or
refusal about such basic matters is grounded in a misunderstanding/lack of knowledge
of the abrahamic faiths or about intentions simply not to obey the directive to bow and
fall prostrate.Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,
the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.If salat is not ritual, what direction would 20 people face?
God did not tell us to abandon previous revelations.
Just my opinion
ONE GOD ONE WAY
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Salaam,
As you mentioned, hints at preparation for a ritualistic performance. As I have written before in posts on this forum is that I doubt people over thousands of years have been doing wrong with their prostration and physical movements in and act of worship to God.
Disregarding the discussion about a physical prayer or not, it is the actual devotion to God alone that is most important of it all. And I doubt the actual physical movement is what is important to be done exactly in a certain manner. It is the willingness to do something in appreciation of God. It can be holding the hands like Christians uttering a prayer to God alone and giving alms to the poor and this should or could be enough. The washing ritual itself is meant to be making sure we are clean while we offer our prayer to God.
A thought I have had is that the ablution in was very relevant in the hot climate in Arabia since your feet become very sweaty and smell funny and maybe dust in your face, and a lot of other parameters. Even for myself I feel it is comfortable to go wash my feet before I offer my prayer to God, in addition to the other mentioned body parts.
The way to perform the prayer I believe is individual, one may go down on the knees with hands crossed or may face down with the whole head. The most important thing is that we simply LOVE God and we submit to Him.
All I do, I do in the name of God, the most Gracious, the most Merciful. God bless you all my beloved God alone community
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If we read 5/6 in context of 5/2-5 (the previous call to those who have believed), there is no way that a physical washing or cleansing would meet the need of 5/2-5 which is the establishment of masjid al-haraam. I see 5/6 as preparation of the self towards that project.
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Salaam,
I am wondering idolaters and pagans do eat food and they wear cloths! hmm
May Allah bless you,
mmKhansalaam
funny remark but it is not serious.
idolaters and some pagans have many rituals about cloth. that have laws in what to wear.for example, for hijab, you can notice that pagan greeks and romans used to wear it while they were whorshipping Zeus and other deity.
You can also notice that niquab symbolized the wife of sun who protected herself from husband powerfull light (it is why it is black).you can notice that hindous women wear also, until now, something like hijab and that their "scholars" have beards like "muslims" scholars.
i think rituals are invented by shaytan to exchange spiritual devotion by stupid physical devotion.
it is my opinion and i am happy with it.to abdalquran
thank you for your remark
you are probably right
56 seems however to indicate something we have to before doing salat.peace
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Peace all,
Some very good comments have been made so far.
We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments,
and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact
Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted
worshipers.Let's not forget that Islam is "ONE OF THE ABRAHAMIC FAITHS" and does not exist
exclusively on its own but is tied to the other Two monotheistic faiths, this is the
common error of exclusive quranists pedantically accepting that same narrow
mindedness that they so much abhor in others. Tauhid, fasting, charity, prayer,
and pilgrimage can be found in the bible.Exodus 64 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of
Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.Ablution is very old and is not "spiritual" no more than facing mecca is "spiritual"
but a ritual washing to prepare the adherant for worship/service. The confusion or
refusal about such basic matters is grounded in a misunderstanding/lack of knowledge
of the abrahamic faiths or about intentions simply not to obey the directive to bow and
fall prostrate.Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham,
the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.If salat is not ritual, what direction would 20 people face?
God did not tell us to abandon previous revelations.
Just my opinion
ONE GOD ONE WAY
Excellent point. I think you nailed it. They do not see any connection with the Abrahamic traditions even though the Quran does.
