"No Rituals"? What about 5:6?
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Peace Farouk.
If we read 5/6 in context of 5/2-5 (the previous call to those who have believed), there is no way that a physical washing or cleansing would meet the need of 5/2-5 which is the establishment of masjid al-haraam. I see 5/6 as preparation of the self towards that project.
I'm sorry, I didn't really understand exactly what you meant. Could you perhaps elaborate? I'd appreciate it.
James
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Salam James,
My method of reading the Quran involves a very important principle in which I ask the question 'why is this placed HERE'. It would have been so easy for Allah to simply produce one chapter called 'prayer rituals' where He detailed it from top to bottom. Instead what we have is a patchwork reading, where we take verses from here and there and say, here is the 5 or 3 or 2 times ritual. I can't read like that.
So back to 5/6, why is it placed there if it's a ritual washing? To make that makes no sense at all. If you start reading from 5/1 , it talks about fulfilling the ties. Then you have 5/2-5 in which God's system and its perfection is mentioned. 5/6 then says 'oh you have believed' , that is in the principles outlined in 5/2-5. If you believe in this, then establish yourselves towards this connection (salah). This involves cleansing your expressions (faces so called), your capacities (hands so-called) in plural (not dual like the so-called ankles). These are the necessary steps we take when we start our project in 5/2-5.
hope that's clearer. if not, perhaps more specific questions.
F.
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How do you define paganism and idolatry?
salaam bro
hummm!
islam=reception
imen=taking care of what was received.
idolatry=mushrik=mixing words of god with other words and taking other Arbabs that the unique Rabb
Kafir=rejecting the reception=atheistpaganism would be worshiiping a set of deity in wich God is not even included.
i have however to note that idolatry seems to be included in the more general word of kofr (3-80).
Peace
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Peace.
It's really sad and unfortunate that even after God gave SOOO many ayahs/signs in the Quran which clearly indicates the existence of a ritual (salat) which needs to be carried out, some people seem to overlook those clear signs and blame the errors in the translations.
O people who believe, what if those translations are correct and your own personal interpretations are wrong, do you then not fear the consequence you may face for your deeds?
A CLEAR WARNING
THESE WERE some of the prophets upon whom God bestowed His blessings - of the seed of Adam and of those whom We caused to be borne with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel and among those whom We had guided and elected; whenever the messages of the Most Gracious were conveyed unto them, they would fall down , prostrating themselves and weeping. Yet they were succeeded by generations who lost all prayer and followed their own lusts; and these will, in time, meet with utter disillusion.(1958-59)
But those people will attempt to find errors even in the above translation and change the words to fit whatever they desire.
May Allah guide us to His straight path.
peace
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peace,
Scribbler,
Why do you say others are wrong about XYZ yet provide no evidence/logic as to why? Some might find actual evidence/reasoning helpful.Farouk,
Instead what we have is a patchwork reading, where we take verses from here and there and say, here is the 5 or 3 or 2 times ritual. I can't read like that.
We will assume therefore you never cross-reference different areas/chapters of Quran which seem to discuss the same subject. This would explain your translations I guess.
So back to 5/6, why is it placed there if it's a ritual washing? To make that makes no sense at all. If you start reading from 5/1 , it talks about fulfilling the ties. Then you have 5/2-5 in which God's system and its perfection is mentioned. 5/6 then says 'oh you have believed' , that is in the principles outlined in 5/2-5. If you believe in this, then establish yourselves towards this connection (salah). This involves cleansing your expressions (faces so called), your capacities (hands so-called) in plural (not dual like the so-called ankles). These are the necessary steps we take when we start our project in 5/2-5.
Dont stop with 56 there, I'm sure James would like elaboration on the complete verse. Plus, that would give readers an opportunity to determine if what you're saying makes sense to them.
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Hey folks.... a general advice to all, me aswell.... Let's avoid thinking in terms of us and them, those who get it and those who don't get it... it won't serve any good purpose , rather it will stir up negative emotions and create further divisions among the people here. Let's just accept we are all students on a journey and we do as best as we can. We should not judge eachother. We may promote our own ideas... peacefully sharing different opinions. Let's leave subjective judging at the door.
While I'm at it, I'll throw in some ideas that relate to the topic of the thread.
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Why do we see the three "abrahamitic religions" as different religions from which truth can be deduced due to coherence? What if one religion just influenced another and another, like atheists say? Who says they are independent and validating eachother? What if their traditions and rituals are just that... traditions that have been passed on between eachother regardless of the truth in them... like one big traditional religion? We even know that traditions have come from non-abrahamitic religions into islam.
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What was abrahams religion actually? Was is a set of jewish-christian-islamic traditions and rituals, or was it that of non-idolworship?
Just some ideas to ponder. I'm not in a position to elaborate further right now, although I feel it would be necessary. I don't think I'm conveying myself properly and clearly...
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Peace.
It's really sad and unfortunate that even after God gave SOOO many ayahs/signs in the Quran which clearly indicates the existence of a ritual (salat) which needs to be carried out, some people seem to overlook those clear signs and blame the errors in the translations.
peace
Salaam
it is really sad and unfortunate that people who prosternate towards the cubic stone in the desert don't realize that they are showing their buttocks to God.
Peace
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Scribbler THESE WERE some of the prophets upon whom God bestowed His blessings - of the seed of Adam and of those whom We caused to be borne with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel and among those whom We had guided and elected; whenever the messages of the Most Gracious were conveyed unto them, they would fall down , prostrating themselves and weeping. Yet they were succeeded by generations who lost all prayer and followed their own lusts; and these will, in time, meet with utter disillusion.(1958-59)
I dunno about your translation. By translating 'ayat' to 'messages', it suggests the idea it refers to verses of scripture. 'ayat' to me are signs. When signs are reflected (yutla) upon us, we fall with humility or submission. THAT is our connection or salat.
But again, maybe we should ask 'why is this aya HERE' . Why isn't it in an imaginary chapter called 'rituals of salah'. A pertinent question, I think....
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Salaam
it is really sad and unfortunate that people who prosternate towards the cubic stone in the desert don't realize that they are showing their buttocks to God.
Peace
Noshirk, if people find devotion from their sajda (in whatever direction), then why is that a problem? I know people who pray 5 times a day and go for hajj. Good people who derive great benefit from their spiritual practice.
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Hey folks.... a general advice to all, me aswell.... Let's avoid thinking in terms of us and them, those who get it and those who don't get it... it won't serve any good purpose , rather it will stir up negative emotions and create further divisions among the people here. Let's just accept we are all students on a journey and we do as best as we can. We should not judge eachother. We may promote our own ideas... peacefully sharing different opinions. Let's leave subjective judging at the door.
Well Zulf, this is the thing. We have left Sunnism but maybe not the authoritarian mentality of Sunnism. The more I read early Islamic history (out of academic interest, I don't use it to interpret the Quran), the more I see the sahaba were quranists in the sense that they each had their own opinions in interpreting the Quran. There was no madrasah where the Prophet taught them tafseer! This is actually a problem in Traditional Islam - why is the Prophet never instituted anything for tafseer because the sahabas were allowed to differ in interpretation.
We have the same democratic space now. Sadly, some use it to judge and create knowledge regimes.
While I'm at it, I'll throw in some ideas that relate to the topic of the thread.
- Why do we see the three "abrahamitic religions" as different religions from which truth can be deduced due to coherence? What if one religion just influenced another and another, like atheists say? Who says they are independent and validating eachother? What if their traditions and rituals are just that... traditions that have been passed on between eachother regardless of the truth in them... like one big traditional religion? We even know that traditions have come from non-abrahamitic religions into islam.
I call this 'Abrahamic religions' as the 'tri-religious myth'. I dont believe the Quran supports this idea at all. The Quran calls the deen 'islam' from the start. To me, the attachment of these ritualistic traditions is artificial to the unchanging teachings of these Quranic personalities.
- What was abrahams religion actually? Was is a set of jewish-christian-islamic traditions and rituals, or was it that of non-idolworship?
Just some ideas to ponder. I'm not in a position to elaborate further right now, although I feel it would be necessary. I don't think I'm conveying myself properly and clearly...
For me, ibrahim's deen is fully explicated in the Quran. The first time ibrahim is mentioned (2/124) is to do with the house of God which is a rewarding place of mankind and a safe place. This is a very 'secular' concept to me.
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Noshirk, if people find devotion from their sajda (in whatever direction), then why is that a problem?
salaam bro
people do what they want
but when then says that god ask us to show him our buttocks while proternating toward a cubic stone i think (i am sure in fact) that they are lieing and astraying people from the true soujoud who needs no direction but just concentration while hearing words of God.sorry to be little hard but i am fed up with the fake piety of those you make no effort to understand what god send to them and substitute teachings of God with body exercices and hersays believing.
Muslim world is victim of such devoted people. They pretend to be the true Mo'minin while the only thing they do is to corrupt the amana and mix words of god with rituals they don't know even from where they get them.
Peace
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Bro, there are many paths to God. If people use physical postures to express love or devotion, then why not leave them to it. I don't believe any ritual is from Allah but I can see how people find peace in it. It's like meditation. Don't be so harsh with people. Offer your views and move on. Your words may actually be blocking people from seeing your point of view..just my two cents )
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Salam James,
My method of reading the Quran involves a very important principle in which I ask the question 'why is this placed HERE'. It would have been so easy for Allah to simply produce one chapter called 'prayer rituals' where He detailed it from top to bottom. Instead what we have is a patchwork reading, where we take verses from here and there and say, here is the 5 or 3 or 2 times ritual. I can't read like that.
So back to 5/6, why is it placed there if it's a ritual washing? To make that makes no sense at all. If you start reading from 5/1 , it talks about fulfilling the ties. Then you have 5/2-5 in which God's system and its perfection is mentioned. 5/6 then says 'oh you have believed' , that is in the principles outlined in 5/2-5. If you believe in this, then establish yourselves towards this connection (salah). This involves cleansing your expressions (faces so called), your capacities (hands so-called) in plural (not dual like the so-called ankles). These are the necessary steps we take when we start our project in 5/2-5.
hope that's clearer. if not, perhaps more specific questions.
F.
Cause everybody in the world prays the same way. Some religions just have a standard ritual way of praying. But this is not based on scripture. Scripture tells us to pray regularly and consitently and in a timely manner. It assumes this is known as to how. And I agree that its known. I think some people have a problem with the idea of praying and prostrating because their interpretation of the verses concerning that subject is not convincing. I do not see Christians spending all this time asking about what praying is. Only some Quranist do.
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salaam bro
people do what they want
but when then says that god ask us to show him our buttocks while proternating toward a cubic stone i think (i am sure in fact) that they are lieing and astraying people from the true soujoud who needs no direction but just concentration while hearing words of God.sorry to be little hard but i am fed up with the fake piety of those you make no effort to understand what god send to them and substitute teachings of God with body exercices and hersays believing.
Muslim world is victim of such devoted people. They pretend to be the true Mo'minin while the only thing they do is to corrupt the amana and mix words of god with rituals they don't know even from where they get them.
Peace
What happens if Moses did show his butt to God when he prayed? What would that make of you? I knew there was some ideology behind this because the arguments were not convincing.
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Well Zulf, this is the thing. We have left Sunnism but maybe not the authoritarian mentality of Sunnism. The more I read early Islamic history (out of academic interest, I don't use it to interpret the Quran), the more I see the sahaba were quranists in the sense that they each had their own opinions in interpreting the Quran. There was no madrasah where the Prophet taught them tafseer! This is actually a problem in Traditional Islam - why is the Prophet never instituted anything for tafseer because the sahabas were allowed to differ in interpretation.
We have the same democratic space now. Sadly, some use it to judge and create knowledge regimes.
I call this 'Abrahamic religions' as the 'tri-religious myth'. I dont believe the Quran supports this idea at all. The Quran calls the deen 'islam' from the start. To me, the attachment of these ritualistic traditions is artificial to the unchanging teachings of these Quranic personalities.
For me, ibrahim's deen is fully explicated in the Quran. The first time ibrahim is mentioned (2/124) is to do with the house of God which is a rewarding place of mankind and a safe place. This is a very 'secular' concept to me.
I am once again find this all difficult to comprehend or maybe you are not elaborating enough. The Quran is packed with references to the Israelites and Christians and the Torah and Gospel and even orders people to follow these scriptures. I am not sure where all this is going.
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Ah sorry Bigmo, I don't understand these terms in the same way. For me
- bani israil are the movements towards Allah or higher levels of evolution
- haadoo are people who constantly seek ease and leniency
- nasaara are helpers of the cause.
maybe you can watch Mohamed Shiekh's videos on youtube. Look for it under iipctv , maybe I don't fully agree with his views but I was really inspired by him before.
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Bigmo Cause everybody in the world prays the same way. Some religions just have a standard ritual way of praying. But this is not based on scripture. Scripture tells us to pray regularly and consitently and in a timely manner. It assumes this is known as to how. And I agree that its known. I think some people have a problem with the idea of praying and prostrating because their interpretation of the verses concerning that subject is not convincing. I do not see Christians spending all this time asking about what praying is. Only some Quranist do.
The thing is, when I consider the underlying philosophy of the Quran, I can't see how any ritual fits in. Have a look at the stories of the messengers in Chapters 7, 11 and 26. There is a flow of the stories in these chapters. Yet, not one of them mentioned any religious rituals. When they say 'a3budoo Allah' (worship Allah), it's attached to some other instruction. Even the salah of shu3aib in 11/87 is in the middle of some other instructions. It's just hard to fit in, bro.
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Ah sorry Bigmo, I don't understand these terms in the same way. For me
- bani israil are the movements towards Allah or higher levels of evolution
- haadoo are people who constantly seek ease and leniency
- nasaara are helpers of the cause.
maybe you can watch Mohamed Shiekh's videos on youtube. Look for it under iipctv , maybe ) I don't fully agree with his views but I was really inspired by him before.
Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say "Islam" says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)
2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??
Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures of the past but what they have possession of at the time the Koran was revealed. These scriptures are identical in every way to the scriptures these religions still have today known as the Old Testament and New Testament or the Bible as some call it. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption of the Bible is mentioned in the Koran as claimed by the Sunni/Shia sectarianist. How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them? It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a path to salvation and mentions them in an equal footing as the Koran.
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.
2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come. Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GehennaAlso in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288The Koran then says
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.
So there are believing Jews and there are non believing Jews. The Quran does not look at religious identity but looks at individual faith.
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (262, 569)
http//www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
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I have no comments about Torah and Gospels nor do I call people who use or follow them 'disbelievers'. I just don't believe the Quranic words 'tawraat' and 'injeel' refers to them. Do take a look at Mohamed Shiekh's vids if you got time, bro. They may be eye opening )
