"No Rituals"? What about 5:6?
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peace
Dawn has a great point. I agree.
JewishDude
peace Salam, shalom, peace peace -
Salaam,
I have started to think this minor ablution is about keeping yourself spiritually clean, after performing it you feel a lot better. I do this ablution each time I have been to the bathroom. And when I feel I need to be refreshed, it feels better afterwards.
Also a true Believer (or those who think like me) can fall into prayer at any moment of the day and it is handy to always be clean.
Since I pray each 3 hours it is many ablutions per day. Although, I "save" the ablution for the next prayer, unless I do something dirty.
I have thought the ablution does not need to be performed each time if you are already clean. It is not a ritual in that regard, it has the purpose it says, to wash yourself clean, that uncleanness will not distract your prayer.
Thanks for my words, hope they were not too dull to read.
God bless you
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Salam Man of Faith
water not only cleans visible dirt, but it has also clearly a big effect on our psyche. I can still remember well my wild teenage years, ) after a night of drinking, or general abuse the best remedy is a cold shower.
Our body is not only our vehicle, but also the mirror of our soul - the body shows how we feel, and will responded with some diseases by a mental health problem. Thus, a physical cleaning is always a mental purification.
A second aspect is related to the understanding of the SALAT. I would like to mention it here imagine if we understand the salat as a practical service in a Masjid (common place for the purpose to submit God), then the washing has clearly also a very practical reason. As we do not like to go dirty in a restaurant or to our friends - so we do not like to enter dirty in a 'house of God'.
So it seems to me possible that the menstruating women stayed away from a public salat, when we think about the hygienic condition in those time.
Salam -
Salaam,
The last thing thou said, sister, about menstruating women.
There is a verse which tells not to approach women when they have their menstruation, because their are unclean, so does that not mean that praying is also recommended to abstain from?
I mean, if a woman is unclean during this period, is it not wrong to approach the prayers in this condition when you should be clean?
What is ceremonial impurity as I could read in 443 of Abdullah Yusuf Ali' s translation of Quran?
I am not a sexist or anything like that, I was just thinking out of my interpretation of the Quran.
Meanwhile, I think that it is not the same as having intercourse, and women with their tools to stop the bleeding is quite efficient today, so it would not prevent praying more than a plaster on the skin.
My wife abstains from praying during her period, but that has to do with tradition.
Anyway, I think it is up to each woman to determine, some women maybe feel uncomfortable praying during this period.
Of course, what I wrote above is depending on whether you see Salat as a "ritual" or not (I think ritual is the most worn out word on this forum).
I say that people should live in a state of prayer at all times, so this means physical praying loss for a women would not mean everything in the world. Most of your Faith is determined upon your righteousness, such as charity and personality.
God bless you, believing women, and men
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There is absolutely nothing in the Qur'an by which women should not pray or fast while menstruating. The aya usually quoted as precluding it does not say anything about it and has nothing to do with that.
This habit or conception in muslim tradition comes from taking jewish hadith first as a rule and then looking in the qur'an for an aya which might serve to support that previous non quranic determination. To determine that from an aya which enjoings men not to bother women sexually when they are menstruating they can draw whatever they wish regarding prayer and fasting is a real mockery. That determination comes from hadith transplanted from jewish hadith and not from Qur'an.
And, the aya in question does not say that women are unclean during menstruation. Not at all and no way.
Salaam
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Salaam,
No, I never claimed the Quran says it is forbidden. And I was not including hadith or tradition in my reasoning. I was just thinking about the spiritual aspect of this, and my thoughts regarding the verses in the Quran and some hygienic issues that may arise due to menstruation, which may affect praying.
And, some women may not be able to fast during menstruation due to the loss of blood. It can probably be a bit unhealthy in such cases. Apart from this health issue, there is nothing preventing women from fasting during menstruation, the Quran does not say anything about that.
Also, if you feel unclean during prayer, it can be a distraction. I am no woman, so I cannot speak for them.
You shall not take things too literally, it is unhealthy.
God bless you
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I am not sure what you are getting at. What my point was was that if we are talking about rituals, nowhere in the Qur'an it is stated or hinted to that mentruation is or entails ritual impurity, blood or no blood it is not ritual impurity according to the Qur'an. Whether leaving aside ritual it can be messy or not, it does not have anything to do with ritual purity nor does it preclude prayers or fasting, nor has anything to do with how you feel or not feel. The way one may feel is nothing to do with ritual purity. One may be concentrated or not without any ritual impurity, that happens to everybody mestruating or not menstruating, but ability or inability to concentrate is not ritual impurity. That was the point and the issue, that to single out menstruation as something that may favour or unfavour prayers is not based on anything the Qur'an says nor hints at at all.
Salaam
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Salaam brother,
Why sound so upset?
In my personal interpretation the Quran may hint at something like I was writing, still I was clearly saying it was just my thinking.
The Quran does not say that praying while menstruating is forbidden, but I thought some women may feel uncomfortable doing so while having their period and may perhaps feel unhygienic, although I have never checked that question with a woman.
The ablution is meant to make you feel spiritually clean that you may approach prayers and a woman may not feel like that during this time was what I was trying to say. The Quran does not say anything like that, but you cannot always just read Quran reading its literal meaning thinking you cannot apply the phrases abstractly.
Now, it sounds like you think I believe it is forbidden for women to pray or fast during menstruation, of course it is not or otherwise it would have been made clear.
I never mentioned fasting to begin with, why did it enter the discussion?
I mentioned praying for women during menstruation could be a sanitary issue and make one feel unfit for physical prayers. It is nothing outright discussed in Quran, but could possibly go under 56 and 443. It was a sanitary issue, not to do with menstruation itself and prayer. Apart from this issue the physiological side effects of the period might also cause a distraction making it hard to focus.
Hope you can relax now that I have tried to clear out some misunderstandings.
God bless you
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I csnnot fathom why you think that I was not relaxed or that worried by anything you said.
The thread is about the ritual nd what I was intending was to make it very clear that whatever anybody, not you particularly, I do not care, anybody might feel or think about the thing, ritually according the Qur'an, menstruation is neither here nor there, just as shaving or not shaving is neither here nor there either for prayer or fasting. And I do mention fast because that is another thing that women have been prevented from doing because of menstruation (another ritual) in spite of the Qur'an not saying anything about it.
Salaam
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Salaam,
I still think you have a slight aggressive tone, perhaps it is that conversation in text form is misleading.
But anyway, I never ever said that this praying was forbidden, I had some philosophical thoughts that make praying in this state inconvenient or undesired. I think you get me wrong, I am not advocating the typical rule usually based on hadith. Please disconnect me from traditionalism and hadith, because that is not where I get my inspiration in this case.
And excuse me if I said brother, I have the light version of the forum where you do not see gender.
And forgive me if I come about offensive without realizing or it is a sensitive topic for you.
God bless you
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Man of faith, you said your things, I said mine, you seem to think that everything I said was intended for you. No. It was intended in general, what you wrote, simply, pushed me to state something general so that particular feelings or ideas should not cloud the most important fact of what the Qur'an states or does not state.
We all consider and ponder things which may help to explain to ourselves why this or that happened at one time or another. That was not my purpose, but simply to leave no room for doubt about what the Qur'an warrants or does not warrant concerning that ritual of salaa and fasting and the unquranicity of bring mestruation into a single construction with it.
Not thinking of you nor answering toyour personal opinions, but just what you stated moved me to make that point, which even if I did after reading your message is not directed to you or anybody in particular, but in general terms.
Salaam
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Salaam,
Okay, thanks for your clarification. We can then conclude that the Quran does not forbid praying nor fasting while menstruating.
God bless you
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Salaam,
The last thing thou said, sister, about menstruating women.
There is a verse which tells not to approach women when they have their menstruation, because their are unclean, so does that not mean that praying is also recommended to abstain from?
I mean, if a woman is unclean during this period, is it not wrong to approach the prayers in this condition when you should be clean?
What is ceremonial impurity as I could read in 443 of Abdullah Yusuf Ali' s translation of Quran?
I am not a sexist or anything like that, I was just thinking out of my interpretation of the Quran.
Meanwhile, I think that it is not the same as having intercourse, and women with their tools to stop the bleeding is quite efficient today, so it would not prevent praying more than a plaster on the skin.
My wife abstains from praying during her period, but that has to do with tradition.
Anyway, I think it is up to each woman to determine, some women maybe feel uncomfortable praying during this period.
Of course, what I wrote above is depending on whether you see Salat as a "ritual" or not (I think ritual is the most worn out word on this forum).
I say that people should live in a state of prayer at all times, so this means physical praying loss for a women would not mean everything in the world. Most of your Faith is determined upon your righteousness, such as charity and personality.
God bless you, believing women, and men
I have thought that my post could be misunderstood. I know that- of course- the Quan never mentioned something about a ban on menstruation. I got to thinking how this ban could have found its way into the secondary sources - and my conclusion was that it may have been in the time of the Prophet women who were ashamed and so did not going to the common prayer in state of menstruation. And probably this behavior led to the ban in the secondary sources (Ahadithes).
Sorry, I just thought too much and do not written it. Wanted no confusion.
THERE IS NO PROHIBITION IN THE QURAN.Huruf thank you for clarification and also sorry, that i don't write clear )
Salam
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I am very alarmed. The traditional position was that women were not required to do salaat during menstruation and that if they did it it was not valid. Never was it that it was forbidden. That that it was not valid, was the traditional position of those who hold that kind of view which is most muslims, but to say that it is forbidden it is something else. A step the traditionalists, as far as I know, did not take. Now it is that it is forbidden. Where from? The same goes for fasting.
I do not think the invalidity of salaat and therefore the dispense of it during menstruation comes from islamic sources. In judaism and in the bible menstruating women were unclean and were very restricted, it really looked like an abomination. There are things wrtten about that and there is the bible. That is where it comes from in islam, just as the sacrifice of ibrahim, and so many things, that "islam" has incorporated and which are completely straneous to Qur'an. The menstruation thing was a magnificent weapon to ban women out right from religious "hyerarchy" and religious significance. What are they going to do if they cannot even make prayers? ?Realise?
To be in ritual impurity is called junub-junuban. Nowhere int he Qur'an does that word appear in connection with menstruation. Nowhwere in the Qur'an is menstruation mentioned or hinted at as an impediment for salaa or fast.
If somebody becomes ill because of the menses or in connection with them, what does it matter? It is dipensed of salaat because of sickness not because of menstruation. Why should it be relevant whether the sickness come sform thsi or from that. Why when it concerns women everybody turns out to be so eager to find problems with everything? I am not meaning you Mirjamnur, I mean in general?
We have in aya 4.1 in the same sentence that we are commanded
Ittaqw Allah... we ittaw al arham
Be conscious of God and be conscious of the wombs...
So we are instructed to be conscious of the wombs and then right away we loose no time in declaring them unclean. No wonder muslims are so lost. Womanhood, according to the Qur'an should be revered not constantly scrutinized and suspected and restricted. Mankind in general is very lost, but who is more lost than those who have got a complete and fair and noble guide an apply themselves to see how they can obscure it an cut it the same way one cuts prices. The Qur'an is too good, we should make it cheaper, what?
Again, Mirjamnur this is nothing directed at you, I just happen to have taken the cue from your message, but it is a general comment.
Salaam
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Peace to everyone,
The only restriction as far as the menses is concerned is sexual intercourse.
The others as huruf has correctly stated are innovations.
It is astounding to think that to God it matters if a woman is on her menses
or not. Just astounding.He said, "You have incurred condemnation and wrath from your Lord.
Do you argue with me in defense of innovations you have fabricated? you
and your parents?which were never authorized by GOD? Therefore, wait and I
will wait along with you."peace
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Salaam,
Edit You are right, this was maybe an unnecessary topic to discuss. Maybe sanitary discomfort is nothing which can affect one's prayability.
I can clearly see that the topic got pretty heated up. All I wanted to say was about the possible feeling of uncleanness and therefore willingness to abstain from prayer due to feeling spiritually unclean. I have no experience of menstruation since obviously I am no woman.
Anyway, the philosophical background was unclean feelings in general, if you cannot prevent an unclean condition due to medical issues for example. I know women have been mistreated over the centuries and I am no promoter of that, but still if some women believe that their menstruation is a distraction I respect that and I will not nag on them to pray because the Quran does not exempt menstruating women from praying.
Same goes for medical situations which may induce feelings of sanitary discomfort. It was this sort of philosophical thinking I was doing and I never said that women having their period must abstain from praying.
And I am still a bit puzzled where fasting and menstruation entered the picture, except that I am a bit unsure about the potential health issue due to the obvious loss of blood during this period. However, a healthy female should be fine I guess.
The focus of my thinking was still around 56 and the reason behind doing this minor ablution. And potential obstacles that may affect the result of an ablution.
If you want, we can leave this part of the discussion about ablution.
By the way, I do not like the term ritual, it sounds pagan-like.
God bless you
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Salam Huruf
Yes, i see that you are very alarmed- group
I do not think the invalidity of salaat and therefore the dispense of it during menstruation comes from islamic sources. In judaism and in the bible menstruating women were unclean and were very restricted, it really looked like an abomination. There are things wrtten about that and there is the bible. That is where it comes from in islam, just as the sacrifice of ibrahim, and so many things, that "islam" has incorporated and which are completely straneous to Qur'an. The menstruation thing was a magnificent weapon to ban women out right from religious "hyerarchy" and religious significance. What are they going to do if they cannot even make prayers? ?Realise?
To be in ritual impurity is called junub-junuban. Nowhere int he Qur'an does that word appear in connection with menstruation. Nowhwere in the Qur'an is menstruation mentioned or hinted at as an impediment for salaa or fast.
to much from the secondary sources seem to be inspired from the bible. When we read ibn kathir, then he has a big knowledge from the laws and stories in the bible... in fact i think ,that the Quran want correct this mistake and tell the people look at ME HERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN ABOUT UNCLEANESS!!!!!! In one Aya, Allah shows us the truth and the most of the people( men??) don't like to see it.. -X
Again, Mirjamnur this is nothing directed at you, I just happen to have taken the cue from your message, but it is a general comment.
al hamdulillah!
Salam
I can clearly see that the topic got pretty heated up. All I wanted to say was about the possible feeling of uncleanness and therefore willingness to abstain from prayer due to feeling spiritually unclean. I have no experience of menstruation since obviously I am no woman.
this i think is probably possible- i am not feeling unclean, but disturbed and many womens suffer from headache or other disease during this time- so it is just a facility for womens to not MUST go in the mosque those times... And Allah knows.
peace