"No Rituals"? What about 5:6?
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Peace to all.
peace,
Scribbler,
Why do you say others are wrong about XYZ yet provide no evidence/logic as to why? Some might find actual evidence/reasoning helpful.After reading almost all the topics in the Salat section on this forum, I?ve found people giving tons of different views, varying widely with each other, regarding the salat issue. Most people saying that salat is a ritual prayer to link/connect with God, some saying salat is simply reading the Quran, some saying salat is doing good deeds, some saying salat is establishing God?s laws in the society, etc.
Trust me brother, I?ve read all their reasons carefully with an open-mind and open-heart and pondered deeply on whatever they claimed salat to be, and the most convincing reasons and logic I have found are behind those assertions, which claimed salat to be a ?prayer to link/connect with God?. There is simply too much evidence that salaat is, indeed, a ritual prayer to connect with God. That?s just me, and I think this should be the right path cause the evidence for salat being ?prayer?is a lot more overwhelming to me when compared to other possibilities.
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I dunno about your translation. By translating 'ayat' to 'messages', it suggests the idea it refers to verses of scripture. 'ayat' to me are signs. When signs are reflected (yutla) upon us, we fall with humility or submission. THAT is our connection or salat.
But again, maybe we should ask 'why is this aya HERE' . Why isn't it in an imaginary chapter called 'rituals of salah'. A pertinent question, I think....
Peace.
I?ve read your posts before, and I know you think like, ?why is the ayah here?. And you also wonder that why isn?t there a chapter such as ?rituals of salah?. If that?s what it should have been like, then there should also be chapters such as ?rituals of hajj?, ?rules of siyam? etc. Well, brother, in my honest opinion, I?ve also thought like you before, and it?s not like what we think it could have been is simply because I think that it?s not God?s style/way of arranging His chapters and verses in His book(s).
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That's ok bro. At the end of the day, the objective is application so if you derive benefit from your understanding, great. handshake
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Hi Everyone,
This discussion reaffirms my belief that Islam and Judaism are essentially the same religion. We just try to find the minute differences instead of all the commonalities. We should see that the Quran clearly states many times that the other scriptures are valid, as they have the essence of the same religion. Where the Quran succeeds over the other two is that it has been preserved so contamination is minimal (if any). The Torah was passed down hundreds of years in oral format before being written down. Hence the story tellers were telling stories which he would want people to listen to. Hence there is probably some embellishment in there. And there are two creation stories in there as well. The Gospels of Jesus disagree with each other so much that it is hard to believe that this is a perfect account of what happened. In one place Jesus is on a mountain to deliver the beatitudes "Blessed are the meek, etc..." and in another place Jesus is on a plane giving the beatitudes. The point is that the essence of worshiping Allah is the same.
My point is we spend so much time and energy finding differences in the religions. In the end, Allah will judge us on what we have done. If we have attempted to worship him, if we have done good in the community (zakat), if we have come together for peace. That is what matters.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Hi Everyone,
This discussion reaffirms my belief that Islam and Judaism are essentially the same religion. We just try to find the minute differences instead of all the commonalities. We should see that the Quran clearly states many times that the other scriptures are valid, as they have the essence of the same religion. Where the Quran succeeds over the other two is that it has been preserved so contamination is minimal (if any). The Torah was passed down hundreds of years in oral format before being written down. Hence the story tellers were telling stories which he would want people to listen to. Hence there is probably some embellishment in there. And there are two creation stories in there as well. The Gospels of Jesus disagree with each other so much that it is hard to believe that this is a perfect account of what happened. In one place Jesus is on a mountain to deliver the beatitudes "Blessed are the meek, etc..." and in another place Jesus is on a plane giving the beatitudes. The point is that the essence of worshiping Allah is the same.
My point is we spend so much time and energy finding differences in the religions. In the end, Allah will judge us on what we have done. If we have attempted to worship him, if we have done good in the community (zakat), if we have come together for peace. That is what matters.
Just my crazy thoughts,
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceGood point. But there is a human desire to seperate. Seperation is forbiden by the Quran but differences are tolerated and even encouraged.
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What happens if Moses did show his butt to God when he prayed? What would that make of you?
Salaam
i will be in same position if there were people who said that salat is with 10 pirouettes and 6 caprioles.
i will said to my god "sorry, but that was not in your book and you cannot blame me to no have praticed such a thing"i will add "while other were showing you their butt, i have read your book, tried to understand it, and searched for meaning of words you used by seeing how you used them in other verses. I put my faith only in your book and didn't mixed your words with bullshits coming from others books".
i will add also
i didn't followed majority as you said here (12-103 et 12-106 ; 32-13),
i didn't followed our leaders and our great ones as you said here 33-67
i didn't followed who showed piety as you said here 4-49, 4-142 ;107-4 107-6 ; 2-204 et 2-205 )
i didn't followed any frien as you said here25-28
i didn't took angels and prophets as teachers (arbabs) as you said here 3-80.
i didn't took priests as arbabs as you said here9-31
i didn't followed who claimed to be on the true path as you said here16-62
i didn't followed conjectures as you said here53-23
i didn't followed what my fathers were doing as you said here2-170 -5-104
i didn't take into account any hadith other that your ayats as you said here7-3
i am ready to be asked on your words as you said here43-44I am sure that with such a strategy of defense, i am ok with my god even if i have misunderstood everything.
i would be very interested to see response to your question of whose who saw 5 daily prosternations series towards a cubic stone in the desert.
what verses they will show ? and what will they do if Moses was practicing the 10 pirouettes and 6 caprioles prayer ?2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
Peace
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Nice one, Jewish dude. The Quran is a book of signs and signs in the horizon and in the souls connect directly to one's view of the message (41/53). Nobody shares a horizon or a soul so to expect them to get the same message is impossible. It's better to experiment with meanings and see what works.
btw, about 20 years ago, I got a copy of 'Judaism for Dummies'. What it said about musa is something I take for my reading to this very day )
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Salaam
i will be in same position if there were people who said that salat is with 10 pirouettes and 6 caprioles.
i will said to my god "sorry, but that was not in your book and you cannot blame me to no have praticed such a thing"i will add "while other were showing you their butt, i have read your book, tried to understand it, and searched for meaning of words you used by seeing how you used them in other verses. I put my faith only in your book and didn't mixed your words with bullshits coming from others books".
i will add also
i didn't followed majority as you said here (12-103 et 12-106 ; 32-13),
i didn't followed our leaders and our great ones as you said here 33-67
i didn't followed who showed piety as you said here 4-49, 4-142 ;107-4 107-6 ; 2-204 et 2-205 )
i didn't followed any frien as you said here25-28
i didn't took angels and prophets as teachers (arbabs) as you said here 3-80.
i didn't took priests as arbabs as you said here9-31
i didn't followed who claimed to be on the true path as you said here16-62
i didn't followed conjectures as you said here53-23
i didn't followed what my fathers were doing as you said here2-170 -5-104
i didn't take into account any hadith other that your ayats as you said here7-3
i am ready to be asked on your words as you said here43-44I am sure that with such a strategy of defense, i am ok with my god even if i have misunderstood everything.
i would be very interested to see response to your question of whose who saw 5 daily prosternations series towards a cubic stone in the desert.
what verses they will show ? and what will they do if Moses was practicing the 10 pirouettes and 6 caprioles prayer ?2875 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realize that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
Peace
Well i see nothing wrong with praying 5 times a day and praying towards the cubic stone as you said.
Whats wrong with it?
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Well i see nothing wrong with praying 5 times a day and praying towards the cubic stone as you said.
Whats wrong with it?
it is a lie about God if you say that God ask us to that while you have no proof with words of God.
lying about God leads to hell.
apart that, nothing wrong.Peace
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peace,
Trust me brother, I?ve read all their reasons carefully with an open-mind and open-heart and pondered deeply on whatever they claimed salat to be, and the most convincing reasons and logic I have found are behind those assertions, which claimed salat to be a ?prayer to link/connect with God?. There is simply too much evidence that salaat is, indeed, a ritual prayer to connect with God. That?s just me, and I think this should be the right path cause the evidence for salat being ?prayer?is a lot more overwhelming to me when compared to other possibilities.
I understand your view and that is fine, however I'm primarily interested in improving the accuracy of my view (based on evidence/logic/etc), hence why I asked you what I did. Your type of response doesn't allow me/us to do that.
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peace,
I understand your view and that is fine, however I'm primarily interested in improving the accuracy of my view (based on evidence/logic/etc), hence why I asked you what I did. Your type of response doesn't allow me/us to do that.
Peace be with you.
I apologize if my post was offending. It's really amazing to see that people have discussed these issues for years, after years, after years and yet they couldn't make up their minds and come to a conclusion. It's truly appreciative that they are not giving up and are still in pursuit to find out the truth, but at the same time its seems to me that they will never come to any conclusion, not even in their entire lifetimes, and this will go on forever. I'm sorry, but that's what I feel honestly. And yes, each to their own. I came here to learn actually, and honestly bro Wakas, I've learnt quite a lot from your posts which you've made in the past. And I think that sometimes the answer of some questions can be right infront of your eyes, yet you may not realize it.
Anyway, I apologize again, and my intention was really not to offend anyone. Hope you understand.
Peace.
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it is a lie about God if you say that God ask us to that while you have no proof with words of God.
lying about God leads to hell.
apart that, nothing wrong.Peace
Whats lying about praying 5 times a day and praying towards mecca and ka'ba? Just like you think people who prostrate are showing their butts to God and thats how you understand the Quran, there are those who believe the Quran says to pray towards a cubic stone.
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Peace be with you.
I apologize if my post was offending. It's really amazing to see that people have discussed these issues for years, after years, after years and yet they couldn't make up their minds and come to a conclusion. It's truly appreciative that they are not giving up and are still in pursuit to find out the truth, but at the same time its seems to me that they will never come to any conclusion, not even in their entire lifetimes, and this will go on forever. I'm sorry, but that's what I feel honestly. And yes, each to their own. I came here to learn actually, and honestly bro Wakas, I've learnt quite a lot from your posts which you've made in the past. And I think that sometimes the answer of some questions can be right infront of your eyes, yet you may not realize it.
Anyway, I apologize again, and my intention was really not to offend anyone. Hope you understand.
Peace.
Excellent post. You are right.
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We often go in circular talks....
Like this -
Person x In the Koran, God says to do salat. (Referring to the verses...)
Me can you point to where God said salat=standing, bowing, prostrating, sitting to be done a specific time, a specific way.
Person x you don't have to pray a specific way. number doesn't matter as long as there is some component of standing, bowing, prostrating, sitting.
Me ok but where in the Koran does God say salat=standing, bowing, prostrating and what to say in the various positions?this is where the hadith followers say see, this is why you need hadiths and the problem with these quranists. Salat unifies the umma.
Me when is salat supposed to be done? How many times in a day?
Person x 2 times giving an explanation as to why.
Person y 3 times giving her rationale based on analysis of the Koran
Person z 5 times giving his reasoning referring to the verses in the Koran.Again, this is where the hadith followers say see this is why you need hadiths and the quranists are a confused bunch. Salat unifies the umma.
Me again, where in the Koran does God define salat=standing, bowing, prostrating.
Person x Koran mentions prostrating, bowing. (Referring to various verses)
Me but where does God define salat=standing, bowing, prostrating?
Person x it is understood as people had been doing it. If you read the Koran, you would know. This is the problem with Muslims. They just discard previous scriptures. God taught salat to Abraham, Moses...Me God did that. But where is the evidence?
Person x <refers to once again the verses in the Koran where salat is mentioned>And we go back to the beginning of the circular talk.
Me ok...I know that Jews had been doing ritual worship before Muhammed came along. But can you refer me to where God defined and taught salat=standing, bowing, prostrating?
Person x God didn't define but there are many other things that God didn't not define.Me ok let's say salat=standing, bowing, prostrating to be done at certain number of times in a day.
1). How can you do salat while riding on back of horse or on foot? Verse 2238
2). Help me to understand how salat could have been done as in Verse 4101-102?Me those who say number don't matter to God. It is the content. Then please explain verse 4101-104 where God says not a sin or wrong to SHORTEN salat. This means generally, salat is to be of a certain length. Right?
Well.....i would be surprised if i get straight answers. we will just go around and around in circular talk. This is how things go and not unique here. Ask the priest question about the bible where Jesus is referred as 'son of man' - response would not be much different. It is all the same in every religion. Questioning and asking commonly held beliefs and understanding leads to the same kind of reaction. Challenging such beliefs is met with defense and offense. People get killed. Ego, arrogance, fear, ignorance often come in play.... That's just the way it goes. Understand this all too well.
My focus and my goal is to understand what God said about salat, wudu. For the past 20 some years, a lot of my beliefs and understanding had been influenced heavily by extra-quranic sources.
To say "God said this" is one way of going to hell. Did God say salat=physical worship and to physically wash body parts BEFORE salat is my question. The verses in the Quran 56, 4101-104, 2237-238 and various others confuse and trouble me, as I have shared my thoughts and difficulties else where.
I am familiar with the Jewish ritual of praying. By the way, those who are interested there is a really nice book To Pray As a Jew - A guide to the prayer book and the synagogue service by Hayim Donin.
Now, my question is did the Rabbis invent this ritual worship or was it in the Torah? We know that rabbinical laws are sewn with innovations. From reading al baqarah, i know what God said about the people of the book. God had more than harsh words to say. Just reading the words, could feel the anger! The language of the hadiths is so much similar to the talmud that it had made me wonder. I have the bible but have not read the Torah (mainly due to time constraints) but that is my next step in my search for the truth.
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Justamuslim, this is a religious discussion. Of course all argumentation will be circular because the source of the benchmarks of truth rests upon the SUBJECTIVE reasoning of the person. Only the deluded will think they own the truth and are speaking for the Quran. Even what people term as 'evidence' is subjective. All we can do really is test and apply.
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Hi Justamuslim,
One thing that Judaism has is the idea of "Tradition". There is one way to do it. It is not in the Torah. Some of it derives from the Torah but most does not derive from the Torah. Cleaning before prayer.... Jews have the Mikvah. Orthodox women must go to the Mikvah after their menses in order to no longer be ritually impure. People before they went to give offerings at the temple were required to go the Mikvah before approaching the Temple.
Wikipedia has a good description on when people should go to a Mikvah historically
Traditionally, the mikveh was used by both men and women to regain ritual purity after various events, according to regulations laid down in the Torah and in classical rabbinical literature. The Torah requires full immersion
• after Keri ? normal emissions of semen, whether from sexual activity, or from nocturnal emission; bathing in a mikveh due to Keri is known as tevilath Ezra (?the immersion of Ezra?);
• after Zav/Zavah ? abnormal discharges of body fluids;
• after Tzaraath ? certain skin condition(s). These are termed lepra in the Septuagint, and therefore traditionally translated into English as leprosy; this is probably a translation error, as the Greek term lepra mostly refers to psoriasis, and the Greek term for leprosy was elephas/elephantiasis.
• by anyone who came into contact with someone suffering from Zav/Zavah, or into contact with someone still in Niddah (normal menstruation), or who comes into contact with articles that have been used or sat upon by such persons.
• by Jewish priests when they are being consecrated;
• by the Jewish high priest on Yom Kippur, after sending away the goat to Azazel, and by the man who leads away the goat;
• by the Jewish priest who performed the Red Heifer ritual;
• after contact with a corpse or grave, in addition to having the ashes of the Red Heifer ritual sprinkled upon them;
• after eating meat from an animal that died naturally
Go to the Wikipedia website for "Mikveh" for more information.
However you can see there were times that people had to become ritually pure. Many were associated with general cleanliness and others with ritual cleanliness. To me it is clear from the Quran that Allah wants us to be clean before prayer. This is just my opinion.
How to pray exactly? I think that is up to you and Allah. So long as your intention is in the right place you will do what you think is best. Allah will understand that your intentions are right.
If you have the bible you have to Torah. Its just the first 5 books of the bible. Read away. You will find so many similarities it is uncanny. This is why I think the two religions are the same. Just one is more refined than the other.
As a side note... One thing I find frustrating with Judaism is that is not very spiritual. There is a group called Kabbalists who are similar to Sufis. In fact I think they shared ideas. Other than that... for spiritual guidance it is very difficult to find. Whereas the Quran gives spiritual guidance. It speaks to me in a way and with a tone very very different from the Torah. Its the same message though.
Hope my crazy thoughts might help or at least not hurt.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Salaam,
I agree with JewishDude, the Torah is definitely worth reading, even if you can ponder about whether or not everything in it is true. This holy scripture became tainted over centuries, but the main point is still valid.
JewishDude says that they are all the same religion and that is also true. Judaism, Christianity and Islam is exactly the same religion, we worship the exact same God, but yet there is such a grave diversion among the people.
The people of the various sects just drifted apart when it comes to the rituals and the belief systems... and sometimes also pagan belief entered the religion sadly enough. Islam, Christianity and Judaism are just various sects of the original religion of Abraham. Then Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Catholics, Protestants etc etc, are further subdivisions of the original religion which was taught to Abraham a few millenia ago.
The message has been the same all along. Worship God alone, believe in a life after death and be a righteous person. God never wanted to make things complicated for us, but He let us have an opponent called Satan to test us to make sure impure souls would not reach Heaven.
Worshiping God can be done in many ways, giving the alms is a sort of worship, thinking about God's miracles is another, being amazed over the fantastic world we live in. And on the other hand, going down on our knees crossing our hands in adoration with some beautiful words of prayer is also showing respect and belief in the Lord. Also, I do see nothing wrong in the traditional prostration with the head to the ground which is also described in the Bible/Torah. You do not commit any evil by any of these rituals as long as they are devoted to the Maker alone.
Do not be frightened by what people say is right or wrong, as long as everything you do is dedicated to the One who created you. Physical movements in addition to praying in the mind shows more action and seriousness in the actual worship, and hence the ancient prostation may not be a faulty invention by pagans only.
Once again back to what is written in and that one should wash him/herself hints at obtaining purity before acts of worship. If you just worship God in your mind there is no rational reason to do , at least not in my opinion. Remember, even in the Bible washing yourself is told about, although not in the same purpose as , but it seems to be before entering someone's house, but could also be meant before a ritual situation.
Another thought, why was Moses told to take off his sandals before entering the valley of Tuwa? Certain rituals have always been prescribed by God.
God will guide each one of us on the right path as long as we keep an open mind and we are not simply trying to be arrogant about ancient rituals which there are few writings on parchments about. Some people choose to show their adoration and love for God by the prostration.
However, in fact the prostration was not only done to God originally, it was someting you did in respect of persons of high rank in old times. People may have stopped doing that because they did not want to show people as much respect as God Himself, hence just doing the prostration to God in the prayer ritual.
We must always keep in mind that we need to interpret the holy scriptures as of today, and thus we can ponder if it is mandatory to perform sujud as it was done in ancient times.
There is absolutely no doubt that people worshiped God by prostration in ancient times, because mankind did that even to humans as a respectful move. The question is if it is appropriate to do so in these modern times when this kind of move has been replaced by simple handshakes and polite nods with the heads etc.
In my humble opinion, I still perform sujud as part of my worship of God because I feel that it gives that little extra that I love God and that I originate from Him. I am not 100% accurate with the direction to the black box in Mecca because that is not utterly important, it may just have been a reminder of ancient times. There is nothing magical about the prostration, it is just a respectful greeting and some beautiful words that I utter while I am doing it, i.e. Sura 1 in the Quran, plus that I also have some custom words I say that change from time to time. And I also speak freely to God about any issue that I may have.
I see God as a living entity, just like an individual, but of course the Most High and Almighty and I do not hesistate to speak to Him and both complain and praise Him because He will listen. We are allowed to show our grief to God and He will listen. The problems incurred upon us may be part of His test, but if we show our sadness to Him He will be more merciful and may even remove the affliction, because we acknowledged Him and implored him sincerely about it and confessed He is the only One who can do anything about it, or at least do it best.
I hope the things that I wrote were useful to some of you, while to some people it was not. I try to radiate my faithful mind to those who listen and believe. hints at the existence of rituals and the various rituals you see today are remainders of ancient times and are not inventions. God is not as harsh as that He will not accept custom versions of rituals as long as they are dedicated to Him alone, but the best way is to gather up as a community and do a uniform prayer for Him so that we show that we have loveful people that can work together as a unit and not only being lonewolves. I doubt God loves those who cannot compromise and just want to walk their way.
May God bless you and let you see the light
or
May the Force be with You
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bravoGood post, Man of Faith.
One more point worth noting
And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers . Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times . (4103)
CONVEY whatever of this divine writ has been revealed unto thee, and be constant in prayer for, behold, prayer restrains from loathsome deeds and from all that runs counter to reason; and remembrance of God is indeed the greatest . And God knows all that you do. (2945)
And when the prayer is ended, disperse freely on earth and seek to obtain of God's bounty; but remember God often, so that you might attain to a happy state! (6210)
Some people think that they can remember God/talk to God whenever they want, so no need of any ritual. But the above verses clearly demonstrates that there is a difference between 'remembering God at specific times = prayer' and 'remembering God at any time'.
The following verses suggests/hints that there is a general form to prayer
2238 Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God.
2239 But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
This is why I tell everyone to stick to the form of standing, bowing and prostrating.
Peace.
