True Blue Aussie Sunni
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G'day, Assalamu alaikum!
I am a Sunni (orthodox) Muslim from Australia. I find alternative sources of knowledge to be very interesting especially the uncommon views of the Islamic religion that I find here. I think this is an exciting place and a unique opportunity, insha Allah, to challenge my long-held Sunni Islamic views like a unique academic opportunity that I cannot resist overlooking.
As for my story in regards to how I stumped upon the Qur'an-only movement (or else how would I know about you blokes even existed?) then I narrate in brief to condense my personal life story that (1) I do not come from any Islamic background and (2) I first acquired my knowledge of Islam, in my teenage years, from Rashad Khalifa's teachings and translation of the Qur'an after accidentally surfing the Submission.org website one day and (4) I eventually became hooked to his works. (4) I eventually learned that Rashad was a fraudulent, imposter messenger of God and (5) eventually ventured towards mainstream Islam. (6) After studying the many different denominations and interpretations of the Islamic religion, as much as possible, I principally committed myself to following the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
What are the rules here that I have to abide by in order to be welcomed here and to avoid provoking heated feelings and unnecessary arguments? Of course, I do not believe that the Ahadeeth are Satanic words but on the contrary I believe the opposite. I still wonder why you believe the Sunnah is invalid and the Prophetic Ahadeeth (regardless of their historical value) are merely verbose collections of dark matter? I also deem you all to be heretics, to be honest, and I think you are extremely weird beyond the warranted meaning and label of Islam. I do not, however, come here to actively or deliberately condemn you or Dr Rashad Khalifa for that matter. Dr Khalifa is what first led me to Islam, and only Allah knows best whether that was fortunately or unfortunately.
Please note I am also a firm believer in the secular principles of knowledge (i.e. freedom of information for all no matter what is your background, race or religious affiliation) and social equality (i.e. don't judge me I'm not perfect either and if I have not done something criminal to you, I am just another human being trying to co-exist with you).
Thank you for your understanding, your time in reading my post and your support. Jazakallahu khairyun!
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I do not believe that the Ahadeeth are Satanic words but on the contrary I believe the opposite. I still wonder why you believe the Sunnah is invalid and the Prophetic Ahadeeth (regardless of their historical value) are merely verbose collections of dark matter? I also deem you all to be heretics, to be honest, and I think you are extremely weird beyond the warranted meaning and label of Islam. I do not, however, come here to actively or deliberately condemn you or Dr Rashad Khalifa for that matter. Dr Khalifa is what first led me to Islam, and only Allah knows best whether that was fortunately or unfortunately.
Welcome aboard my brother,
I'm an ex-Sunni. I believe ALLAH (SWT) named us "Muslims" and instructed us not to divide our complete and perfect religion into sects (6159). We are also informed that the preserved Qur'an is our only source of law and guidance (456; 6114; 715. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (as) left us the Qur'an alone (see the 3rd version of the Farewell Sermon). Thus, the Qur'an alone should speak for Islam. the thousands of ahadith attributed to the Prophet are not "divine statements" from "wahy" rather, they are "historical records" collected "orally" from the "memory" of men who existed (more or less) 200 years after the death of our dear Prophet! I believe the Qur'an is the only authentic book there is on planet earth. as for Al-Kutub al-Sittah of hadith, they are filled with errors, lies and absurdities... for example; sahih bukhari claims that Prophet Muhammad attempted suicide on multiple occasions! I don't buy it )
SLM.
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Wa'alaikumsalam wr wb n welcome @Shadowscholar
I'm your northern neighbor.Yes hadith was less authantic because, hadith is full of distortion cause it only transferred by oral transmission for hundred years without being written until Khalifah Abdul Ajiz era.Plus it already contradicted by some group who against Islam in that time.Hadiths has no authantic methodology.
Btw, hopefully you can find more truth in this forum.
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What are the rules here that I have to abide by in order to be welcomed here and to avoid provoking heated feelings and unnecessary arguments?
Forum Rules
Posting Guidelines
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G'day and wal3alaikum asSalaam brother,
welcome to the forum handshake
Following links might be of interest to you, inshaAllah.
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About Muhammad
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Who brought alQuraan or How alQuraan came into existence
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What means a3tiAllaha wa a3tialRasoola
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About Hadith
InshaAllah, these links will be of some help )
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
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Gday, Walaikum asalam
Welcome to the forum.
Not everyone here regards Rashad Khalifa in the same light.
Of course, I do not believe that the Ahadeeth are Satanic words but on the contrary I believe the opposite.
Not everyone believes ahadith are satanic words though what would be the opposite? if it was Godly then I'd disagree.
I still wonder why you believe the Sunnah is invalid and the Prophetic Ahadeeth (regardless of their historical value) are merely verbose collections of dark matter?
I think there is a lot of assumptions. For example sunnah as invalid? who invalidated sunnah? then again you're understanding of sunnah differs so I can see why you make that remark.
Again don't assume that everyone see's ahadith as dark matter. Some do some don't. Personally I believe there is some good in hadith, though I wouldn't glorify it in the same way sunnis do. Also hadith has a socio-cultural context, it gives an insight into the sociology of the time when people recorded them. However if you read the history of hadith, you'll know there is a lot of controversy.
Most people or at least I can speak for myself, like to focus on the message; The Quran.
You might finds this an interesting read http//www.scribd.com/doc/119660399/dialogues-of-hadith-different-perceptions-and-insights
Inshallah, if you take the time to read it let me know your thoughts
Ma3 salama
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G'day, Assalamu alaikum!
I am a Sunni (orthodox) Muslim from Australia. I find alternative sources of knowledge to be very interesting especially the uncommon views of the Islamic religion that I find here. I think this is an exciting place and a unique opportunity, insha Allah, to challenge my long-held Sunni Islamic views like a unique academic opportunity that I cannot resist overlooking.
Salaam,
Welcome to the forum.
Great to know you're open minded!
As for my story in regards to how I stumped upon the Qur'an-only movement (or else how would I know about you blokes even existed?) then I narrate in brief to condense my personal life story that (1) I do not come from any Islamic background and (2) I first acquired my knowledge of Islam, in my teenage years, from Rashad Khalifa's teachings and translation of the Qur'an after accidentally surfing the Submission.org website one day and (4) I eventually became hooked to his works. (4) I eventually learned that Rashad was a fraudulent, imposter messenger of God and (5) eventually ventured towards mainstream Islam. (6) After studying the many different denominations and interpretations of the Islamic religion, as much as possible, I principally committed myself to following the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Did you practice any faith/religion before coming to Islam?
What are the rules here that I have to abide by in order to be welcomed here and to avoid provoking heated feelings and unnecessary arguments? Of course, I do not believe that the Ahadeeth are Satanic words but on the contrary I believe the opposite. I still wonder why you believe the Sunnah is invalid and the Prophetic Ahadeeth (regardless of their historical value) are merely verbose collections of dark matter? I also deem you all to be heretics, to be honest, and I think you are extremely weird beyond the warranted meaning and label of Islam. I do not, however, come here to actively or deliberately condemn you or Dr Rashad Khalifa for that matter. Dr Khalifa is what first led me to Islam, and only Allah knows best whether that was fortunately or unfortunately.
If you stay polite and avoid personal comments, I think that can avoid heated feelings.
I don't think the Hadith are satanic as such. There may be some valid things in there. It's difficult to discern where the truth merges with falsehood though at times especially in the things that Prophet Muhammad is alleged to have said or done etc Although there are some Hadith that go directly against the Quran e.g. Prophet Muhammad negotiating 50 prayers to 5 with Allah swt on the recommendation of Prophet Moses.
The Quran mentions the use of other Hadith, calls itself a Hadith and asks the reader or listener, which other hadith will you/they believe? - I've mentioned this in another post if you are interested.
What do you mean by "you are extremely weird beyond the warranted meaning and label of Islam"? That doesn't really seem necessary to me especially what you said about judging people later. That's just my opinion. Take it or leave it as you wish.
Please note I am also a firm believer in the secular principles of knowledge (i.e. freedom of information for all no matter what is your background, race or religious affiliation) and social equality (i.e. don't judge me I'm not perfect either and if I have not done something criminal to you, I am just another human being trying to co-exist with you).
We're all a work in progress aren't we really? If we are respectful and respect human dignity, that seems to be what matters.
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Salaam,
Nice to see another fellow Sydney-sider, notwithstanding our different interpretation of Islaam. First of all I would like to welcome you to this forum. In shaa? Allah you will increase your knowledge from being involved in this forum ).
Anyway, I think that you have made gross generalization of the Qur?aan-only followers. I can assure you not all of us deem hadiths to be satanic. For me personally, I do not believe that hadiths are not divinely inspired, and are not accurate representation of what Prophet Muhammad said and did in his time. The reason is, as you may have already gathered, that hadiths were compiled a few hundred years after the passing away of the Prophet. There are some inconsistencies in hadiths, which cast doubts on their claimed divinity. Furthermore, there are some teachings, that contradict the Qur?aan.
That being said, I do not perceive that hadiths in entirety are satanic. Some of them do teach about compassion, humility, righteousness and servitude to the One God. For me, I use the good hadiths as life inspirations, rather than divinely-binding rules. I approach hadiths as other literatures. Read them with open mind. Filter out the bad, and absorb the good. For me, the Qur?aan is the Book; the one that I seek guidance from.
I personally do not care if one decides to be a Sunni, or a Shi?a and so forth. What matters most is what lies within their hearts. If their belief system makes them believe in One God, and strives to do good deed, then it?s fantastic. My message for you, rest assured that as much as a heretic I am in your eyes, I do believe that following Qur?aan only has made me a better believer than when I was a default Sunni ). If I may ask, why do you feel you need to follow hadiths in addition to the Qur?aan? Is there anything you cannot find in the Glorious Book?
Salaam )
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Welcome
I'll try to avoid repeating others. I feel you're placing way too much stress on Rashad Khalifa's overall importance/relevance. There are some differing views on him on here but it's generally agreed that he raised awareness. He's not to be worshipped, idolised, or anything of the the like. It's also generally agreed that it's up to the individual to study the Quran and decide for himself/herself what to believe, as opposed to the "follow the sheik" mentality the average devout sunni might be more familiar with.
Ahadeeth, satanic or not, have no specific place in the realm of faith. Again, it's fine to be inspired by some of it, that doesn't mean it's fine to hold to the level of the Quran (in practice, I mean. Of course sunnis will deny that the hadith is held to the same regard as the quran, but this is blatantly untrue in observed reality. The Quran is practically irrelevant in a sharia setting) I have no issue with someone who is able to distinguish between the Quran and the corpus of arab/persian law & lifestyle tips that hadith is.
Not really feeling any sort of "open minded" vibe from you or ...I'm but a simple heretic though apparantly so what would I know, I guess? Do you mind if I ask how you claim to be sunni and believe in freedom of information at the same time?
Peace.
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Peace,
Welcome to the forum.
Not that I wish to raise any conflict, but what if I said that I see Sunni muslims as heretics with weird practices? It is exactly the same thing you said, but the opposite.
Well, the Truth is that I do not say that to you, at least not heretic, but weird I agree on and I hope you excuse me on that.
I do not use an as colorful word as Satanic to refer to hadith, but I have drawn the conclusion that they are bogus and contradict the Quran. I take the external reference from hadith itself as one sign of that "do not write anything down from me except the Quran". The other reference is from the Quran "Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other words we would have stopped the revelations to him".
That has made me to, quite simply, come to the logical conclusion that the hadith are fake. They are not valid because God forbade Muhammad to preach anything but the Quran. Anything allegedly uttered in Muhammad's name in hadith is fake or at least invalid to be a source of religious teaching.
I follow the Sunnah, but it is God's Sunnah.
I also discovered that Dr. Khalifa went astray, but I continued the path to get closer to God through basically Quran, the Message alone and prayers and meditation and righteous deeds devoted in His name.
I respect your decision in life and hope that it will make you happy. Maybe you can still teach me something I did not know.
I live my life through logic and reason and this is where I am now. I started out as basically an atheist and it was my philosophies which turned me into a Believer and not the Quran or any other scripture. In fact, science helped me become a Believer. You can read my long explanation in other tread I wrote in. I opened the Quran first many years after I became a Believer.
It does not make me not to submit to my Creator, but I am trying to think rationally on my Faith. I do what you have to do in islam; gain a peace of mind by meditation, prayers and righteous deeds. I believe in the Creator and the eternal existence of life / souls.
I am accepting you for who you are, even if you call yourself Sunni muslim, you are equal to me like anyone else.
God bless you
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Assalamu Alaikum
There is going to be so much I have to answer so I'll do my best in the spirit of fairness and brevity. If I ignored or missed any important question, or if I was too brief in any of my responses then kindly inform me what I missed. I like to provide simple, straight-to-the-point answers and save my audience from mental headaches. Sadly, I also need to save time because I have schedules to meet, academic duties to fulfill, and a timetable to manage my living. I really apologize if my briefness upsets you
Salaam,
Anyway, I think that you have made gross generalization of the Quraan-only followers. I can assure you not all of us deem hadiths to be satanic.
I don't think the Hadith are satanic as such. There may be some valid things in there. It's difficult to discern where the truth merges with falsehood though at times especially in the things that Prophet Muhammad is alleged to have said or done etc Although there are some Hadith that go directly against the Quran e.g. Prophet Muhammad negotiating 50 prayers to 5 with Allah swt on the recommendation of Prophet Moses.
The Quran mentions the use of other Hadith, calls itself a Hadith and asks the reader or listener, which other hadith will you/they believe? - I've mentioned this in another post if you are interested.
Ahadeeth, satanic or not, have no specific place in the realm of faith. Again, it's fine to be inspired by some of it, that doesn't mean it's fine to hold to the level of the Quran (in practice, I mean. Of course sunnis will deny that the hadith is held to the same regard as the quran, but this is blatantly untrue in observed reality. The Quran is practically irrelevant in a sharia setting) I have no issue with someone who is able to distinguish between the Quran and the corpus of arab/persian law & lifestyle tips that hadith is.
I did not know that, honestly. Before I even signed up for the board I read numerous posts in which some of the members unequivocally called references to ahadeeth "Satanic words" and condemned them as such, totally and blindly brushing aside every historical as well as religious value that might connected to or conveyed by them. So I was fearing there might be emotional outbreaks against me and whoever comes here while supporting belief in Hadith. I am also curious about how you co-exist with regular Muslims since we consider you to be outside the fold of Islamic orthodoxy, as well as being very curious about the form and style of Islam you practice.
I personally do not care if one decides to be a Sunni, or a Shia and so forth. What matters most is what lies within their hearts. If their belief system makes them believe in One God, and strives to do good deed, then its fantastic. My message for you, rest assured that as much as a heretic I am in your eyes, I do believe that following Quraan only has made me a better believer than when when I was a default Sunni ). If I may ask, why do you feel you need to follow hadiths in addition to the Quraan? Is there anything you cannot find in the Glorious Book?
Do you find the names of the Prophet Muhammad's parents, grandfather, tribal ancestry and the Arab tribes that surround his origins, and other genealogical data as well as valuable historical information that encompass all of the Islamic personalities (especially the Sahaba) that surround the Qur'an in the Qur'an or in the Seerah (specifically, collection of biographical ahadeeth)?
Without the transmission and collection of hadiths, how would we ever know what happened before, during, and after Muhammad's time and what caused the Sunni/Shia split as well as the entire history of Islam? Are we going to read secular compilations of Islamic history for historical information then?
What about valuable religious information? I was not never aware you can practise Salaat, and other prescribed Islamic rites, without the details that are embodied in the Hadith corpus. I cannot see Islam even existing or materializing without the hadiths, much less without the masses of books (written by the orthodox/traditional Muslim scholars throughout history) of organization of Islamic knowledge, codification and clarification of monotheistic Islamic doctrine, compilations of Islamic traditions, canonization of Islamic lexicon and the science of Qur'anic recitation, encyclopaedia of Islamic laws and compendiums of Islamic jurisprudence (called fiqh), and organization of Islamic moral codes and Muslim ethics, that are essential for both individual practising of the religion and the regulation of collective Muslim affairs.
I feel you're placing way too much stress on Rashad Khalifa's overall importance/relevance. There are some differing views on him on here but it's generally agreed that he raised awareness. He's not to be worshipped, idolised, or anything of the the like.
Rashad Khalifa is considered a dajjal who claimed prophethood in the guise of miraculous mathematical discovery (the so-called Quran 19 code) and alien theology; for example, he claims to be a messenger of Allah but not a prophet even though that's logically absurd (unless you believe against all rationality his redefinition and reintepretation of theological terminology).
Who would have been crazy enough to worship or idolize Rashad Khalifa? You know Dr Khalifa never ever demanded anyone to worship him, right? Actually, he claimed to purify monotheism and return the world to theocentricity, and free salvation from the exclusivity of orthodox Islam. He also claimed to supersede the Prophet Muhammad (saws) and purify both monotheism and revelation, meaning until then the Muslim world had been for over one entire millennium sinking in idolatry and degradation, as well as not possessing the original Qur'anic text and not possessing the truth nor useful value in all the mass of knowledge that the Ummah inherited all this time. Dr Khalifa invalidates all the ahadeeth, whether containing theological or historical information, and, as a consequence, both the Sunnah itself and the entire Islamic history. Without the transmission and collection of ahadeeth, how would we ever know what happened before, during, and after Muhammad's time and what caused the Sunni/Shia split as well as the entire surrounding history of Islam?
Not really feeling any sort of "open minded" vibe from you or ...I'm but a simple heretic though apparantly so what would I know, I guess? Do you mind if I ask how you claim to be sunni and believe in freedom of information at the same time?
There is a principle in Islam that we can take information from any source as long as it is true, even if it is for example from someone lower in rank than you or from a controversial source. There are two popular ahadeeth that confirms the permissibility and even the obligation of the circulation of knowledge or learning from others with minimal bias.
Reported by Abu Huraira The Messenger of Allah (saws) said, Whoever is asked about knowledge and he conceals it, then Allah will clothe him with a bridle of fire on the Day of Resurrection.
Narrated by Abu Huraira The Messenger of Allah (saws) ordered me to guard the collection of Zakat during Ramadan. Then somebody came to me and started stealing from the foodstuff. I caught him and said, "I will take you to Allah's messenger!" Then Abu Huraira described the whole narration and said That person answered, "Please do not take me to Allah's messenger and I shall tell you a few words whereby Allah will benefit you. When you retire by your bed, recite Ayat ul-Kursi for then Allah will assign a guard who shall protect you all night long, and Satan will not be able to come near you until the eclipse of dawn." When the Prophet (saws) heard the story, he (saws) said "He has told you the truth although (normally) he is a liar, because that was Satan."
Great to know you're open minded!
Did you practice any faith/religion before coming to Islam?
If you stay polite and avoid personal comments, I think that can avoid heated feelings.
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What do you mean by "you are extremely weird beyond the warranted meaning and label of Islam"? That doesn't really seem necessary to me especially what you said about judging people later. That's just my opinion. Take it or leave it as you wish.I was a "deist", merely a basic believer in God with zero religious knowledge. I came from a secular family, so there isn't much to say about my background. My upbringing did not involve any identified religion except the occasional passing of religious people here and there that everyone meets from time to time throughout his or her life.
Thank you. I try my best to be open-minded. But at the same time, I have to share what I observe and understand I see you, as a collective whole, as a group of Quranists and Qur'an-onlyists, to be very weird because of your fuzzy station and undefined religious position in the Muslim world. Where do you guys fit in Islam or its theological make-up is far from clear and I cannot simply brush aside your existences and unique theologies because of rash declarations of infidelity (by orthodox and traditional Muslim scholars) against you.
welcome Shadowscholar
You repeatedly mentioned "Islam", what is "Islam"?
Thank you, and thank you to everyone else who have cordially welcomed me.
Islam is, in basic definition, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Islam and anything Islamic comes from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, or the Muslim scholars. I suppose for you Islam, and whatever can be described as Islamic, is only from the Qur'an?
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Salam and also a welcome from me. If you are really open to listen, I am looking forward to the discussions.
As others have stated before, you will find here many different opinions, so there is not so much a "we", or inly a very basic one.
Do you find the names of the Prophet Muhammad's parents, grandfather, tribal ancestry and the Arab tribes that surround his origins, and other genealogical data as well as valuable historical information that encompass all of the Islamic personalities (especially the Sahaba) that surround the Qur'an in the Qur'an or in the Seerah (specifically, collection of biographical ahadeeth)?
Without the transmission and collection of hadiths, how would we ever know what happened before, during, and after Muhammad's time and what caused the Sunni/Shia split as well as the entire history of Islam? Are we going to read secular compilations of Islamic history for historical information then?
Is there any spiritual value in knowing the names of Muhammads relatives? Does that make you serve God any better? Is there even any value in knowing the name Muhammad?
There might be some value in Ahadith as historical account (though even there, you have to be careful, as history tends to be britten by the winner); what "we" reject is ahadith as a source of guidance (especially if it gets the same or more value than the Quran).
What is not mentioned in the Quran is left to each one's own evaluation.
I am also curious about how you co-exist with regular Muslims since we consider you to be outside the fold of Islamic orthodoxy, as well as being very curious about the form and style of Islam you practice....
What about valuable religious information? I was not never aware you can practise Salaat, and other prescribed Islamic rites, without the details that are embodied in the Hadith corpus. I cannot see Islam even existing or materializing without the hadiths, much less without the masses of books (written by the orthodox/traditional Muslim scholars throughout history) of organization of Islamic knowledge, codification and clarification of monotheistic Islamic doctrine, compilations of Islamic traditions, canonization of Islamic lexicon and the science of Qur'anic recitation, encyclopaedia of Islamic laws and compendiums of Islamic jurisprudence (called fiqh), and organization of Islamic moral codes and Muslim ethics, that are essential for both individual practising of the religion and the regulation of collective Muslim affairs.I distinguish between Islam (reminder Islam just means surrender, as you of course know) as an inner status and Islam as a tribal religion. The later may sound a bit hard, but I came to the conclusion that what you call Islam is no more than tribal religion, that is that what the Quran aimed to surpass. Allthe things you mention contributed to build that tribal religion, which is in fact the contrary of Tawhid (Oneness), as it separates people instead of bringing them together.
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I did not know that, honestly. Before I even signed up for the board I read numerous posts in which some of the members unequivocally called references to ahadeeth "Satanic words" and condemned them as such, totally and blindly brushing aside every historical as well as religious value that might connected to or conveyed by them. So I was fearing there might be emotional outbreaks against me and whoever comes here while supporting belief in Hadith. I am also curious about how you co-exist with regular Muslims since we consider you to be outside the fold of Islamic orthodoxy, as well as being very curious about the form and style of Islam you practice.
Salaam,
There are different 'levels of rejection' of hadith, could be one way to put it. Some people completely reject hadith, but not just that, they reject all those who follow hadith as 'islamists' or 'deniers' or some type of label like that. A bit like how some Sunni Muslims would call Quran only kafir etc. I don't like calling hadith satanic words as I'm not sure what that really means. If we take everything outside of the Quran and Islam to be satanic, then many things we may watch, participate in, etc could have a certain level of satanism involved. For example, a lot of companies would be satanic and I just think it doesn't really represent what the thing is or what's happened for example with hadith. I'm not sure what satan is entirely but if some of the words in the hadith are satanic, then are some of the posts or points on this forum? Or are they simply just genuine human errors or sometimes a reflection of people's journey and the mistakes we may or may not make? Although I believe that the hadith have been developed by political motivations etc. I guess I just prefer to not use from that type of terminology but of course others are free to do as they wish.
Do you find the names of the Prophet Muhammad's parents, grandfather, tribal ancestry and the Arab tribes that surround his origins, and other genealogical data as well as valuable historical information that encompass all of the Islamic personalities (especially the Sahaba) that surround the Qur'an in the Qur'an or in the Seerah (specifically, collection of biographical ahadeeth)?
I don't see how knowing names of people changes anything. For example, I don't think the Quran tells us the name of Pharoah's wife although some hadith reports might? I think there are a few verses that relate to what she said and how she believed. Does this make her example weak in some way? We can still learn from her example and we are encouraged to, both men and women.
Without the transmission and collection of hadiths, how would we ever know what happened before, during, and after Muhammad's time and what caused the Sunni/Shia split as well as the entire history of Islam? Are we going to read secular compilations of Islamic history for historical information then?
As Reee mentioned, there may be some historical value in some of the hadith but its still contentious. Historical information will not help you practice Islam in my opinion. Maybe this was always meant to be the challenge. the Quran names some events, people and so on and the challenge may be - will you take historical accounts as a source of Islamic guidance?
What about valuable religious information? I was not never aware you can practise Salaat, and other prescribed Islamic rites, without the details that are embodied in the Hadith corpus. I cannot see Islam even existing or materializing without the hadiths, much less without the masses of books (written by the orthodox/traditional Muslim scholars throughout history) of organization of Islamic knowledge, codification and clarification of monotheistic Islamic doctrine, compilations of Islamic traditions, canonization of Islamic lexicon and the science of Qur'anic recitation, encyclopaedia of Islamic laws and compendiums of Islamic jurisprudence (called fiqh), and organization of Islamic moral codes and Muslim ethics, that are essential for both individual practising of the religion and the regulation of collective Muslim affairs.
I think most people here view Salat as a very personal and individual thing. If you look at the prayers of the believers in the Quran, they are talking on a one to one with God swt. They are at times very heartfelt and show a lot of emotion, how they are dealing with their struggles, possibly sadness, but most of all hope. Because they are praying to Allah swt. This is one reason why praying more often on your own may be desired by some people, so that you can very personally talk and communicate with God swt at this time. Although you can do that at any time you want as well with du'a.
After reading that, I have a question. Do you believe anyone, anywhere can become a Muslim? If so, what does this mean they believe and do in practice?
There is a principle in Islam that we can take information from any source as long as it is true, even if it is for example from someone lower in rank than you or from a controversial source. There are two popular ahadeeth that confirms the permissibility and even the obligation of the circulation of knowledge or learning from others with minimal bias.
Reported by Abu Huraira The Messenger of Allah (saws) said, ?Whoever is asked about knowledge and he conceals it, then Allah will clothe him with a bridle of fire on the Day of Resurrection.?
Narrated by Abu Huraira The Messenger of Allah (saws) ordered me to guard the collection of Zakat during Ramadan. Then somebody came to me and started stealing from the foodstuff. I caught him and said, "I will take you to Allah's messenger!" Then Abu Huraira described the whole narration and said That person answered, "Please do not take me to Allah's messenger and I shall tell you a few words whereby Allah will benefit you. When you retire by your bed, recite Ayat ul-Kursi for then Allah will assign a guard who shall protect you all night long, and Satan will not be able to come near you until the eclipse of dawn." When the Prophet (saws) heard the story, he (saws) said "He has told you the truth although (normally) he is a liar, because that was Satan."
The point here would be that the Hadith are contentious and written with certain biases and influences in mind etc.
I was a "deist", merely a basic believer in God with zero religious knowledge. I came from a secular family, so there isn't much to say about my background. My upbringing did not involve any identified religion except the occasional passing of religious people here and there that everyone meets from time to time throughout his or her life.
Thank you. I try my best to be open-minded. But at the same time, I have to share what I observe and understand I see you, as a collective whole, as a group of Quranists and Qur'an-onlyists, to be very weird because of your fuzzy station and undefined religious position in the Muslim world. Where do you guys fit in Islam or its theological make-up is far from clear and I cannot simply brush aside your existences and unique theologies because of rash declarations of infidelity (by orthodox and traditional Muslim scholars) against you.
I think the word 'weird' will only limit you in your understanding of our or other people's beliefs. I don't know what you mean by fuzzy station. I'm glad your curiosity in the Quran only approach has been piqued though and that you're willing to explore further. From what you've said, it sounds like you question the religious authority at least on whether or not we are believers?
Thank you, and thank you to everyone else who have cordially welcomed me.
The vast majority of people here will welcome you. You're language earlier may have been slightly off putting for some people, whether you realise that or not.
Islam is, in basic definition, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Islam and anything Islamic comes from the Qur'an, the Sunnah, or the Muslim scholars. I suppose for you Islam, and whatever can be described as Islamic, is only from the Qur'an?
What do you think about 931 when the Quran states that the Jews and Christians took Rabbis and Monks as lord above God swt? i.e. the religious elite, the scholars of the day?
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Welcome
Don't want to waste your time repeating too much of what others have said, just posting some food for thought
-How well do you (as in you specifically) know the history you are talking about? The history of the recording of hadith and the ones who did the recording, what Imam Shafi'i actually did and how it changed the faith, that sorta thing?
-Why were things like the details of Ibn Kathir's Tafsir and various hadiths not already outlined within the Quran if they are so integral to the belief? Why do the hadith impose upon muslims so many elements of the arabic (interspersed with persian) tribal culture that the prophet Muhammad rose above and beyond in the first place?
-We know there were prophet/s sent to every nation - why was Islam, as defined very very specifically in the hadith, not followed anywhere until the hadith came about? Belief in Allah was not invented with the rise of Muhammad and contrary to popular belief in the west 'Islam' is not that literal a faith - right?You don't need to answer these in post form here (you can if you want, I guess) I recommend you browse the forum for more info.
Your "I am also curious about how you co-exist with regular Muslims since we consider you to be outside the fold of Islamic orthodoxy" comment reminds me of the typical view of westerners on muslims in general, dunno if you did that on purpose, just found it interesting. Many muslims already abstain from nailing themselves to a sect and whatnot, many also try to seperate the Quran from the culture surrounding it. Most people don't even like calling themselves Quranists/Quraniyoon/etc and try to avoid labels in general. It's not that astounding a thing that we exist, honestly.
It's a shame that the people in power in majority sunni theocratic states don't seem to share your views on freedom of information in practice. Arguably the blame belongs to the individual person and not the group of people they belong to though, perhaps.
Views on Rashad Khalifa differ around here, yeah. No harm in being led to Islam by him, many people agree that he produced the best english translation of the Quran. Just wanted to point out that he didn't claim he was a prophet, but a messenger. Again, I recommend browsing the forum for info on that, to my understanding the distinction between the two isn't even a belief that's exclusive to quran-alone muslims so maybe you've come across it already.
I hope you find your time on here productive.
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Welcome aboard my brother,
I'm an ex-Sunni. I believe ALLAH (SWT) named us "Muslims" and instructed us not to divide our complete and perfect religion into sects (6159). We are also informed that the preserved Qur'an is our only source of law and guidance (456; 6114; 715. Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad (as) left us the Qur'an alone (see the 3rd version of the Farewell Sermon). Thus, the Qur'an alone should speak for Islam. the thousands of ahadith attributed to the Prophet are not "divine statements" from "wahy" rather, they are "historical records" collected "orally" from the "memory" of men who existed (more or less) 200 years after the death of our dear Prophet! I believe the Qur'an is the only authentic book there is on planet earth. as for Al-Kutub al-Sittah of hadith, they are filled with errors, lies and absurdities... for example; sahih bukhari claims that Prophet Muhammad attempted suicide on multiple occasions! I don't buy it )
SLM.
" they are "historical records" collected "orally" from the "memory" of men who existed (more or less) 200 years after the death of our dear Prophet!"
Do you know the earlies know manuscript of the Quran?
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran#Early_manuscripts_to_the_final_canonical_text
There is simple dishonesty in this statement. . . we rely on these same people for Arabic and the Quran . . . yet when it comes to Hadith. . . suddenly they are not good enough? Nonsense.
All those who believe in the Hadith corpus . . . in no way equate it as equal to the Quran.
456
"These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?"
This verse in way negates Hadith corpus.
6114
", "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters."
Neither does this.
7158
"Say, , "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided."
Neither does this.
There are about 11 verses in Quran instructing us to obey the Messenger . . . it is obvious - his duty is different from Jibrail - who simply conveyed the Quran.
Prophet Muhammad taught it - the book took 23yrs to complete . . . and is within the backdrop of His life . . . the book could have come at once - and all the the Prophet had to say was - here you go. It didn't happen that way. . . countless Verses are directly about the life of the Prophet Muhammad. . . .
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Wa'alaikumsalam wr wb n welcome @Shadowscholar
I'm your northern neighbor.Yes hadith was less authantic because, hadith is full of distortion cause it only transferred by oral transmission for hundred years without being written until Khalifah Abdul Ajiz era.Plus it already contradicted by some group who against Islam in that time.Hadiths has no authantic methodology.
Btw, hopefully you can find more truth in this forum.
"Hadiths has no authantic methodology."
What does this mean? There is centuries of brilliant scholarship around the hadith . . . the line is sheer nonsense.
Also - it was the same Uthman - who first ordered the Hadith to be recorded - although his efforts were cut short by his unfortunate assassination.
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@ Man of Faith
"That has made me to, quite simply, come to the logical conclusion that the hadith are fake."
Actually your conclusion is illogical.
There is possibility that some Hadith contain the truth . . . then to form an absolute conclusion - that says they are false - is illogical.
It would have made more sense to say . . . as the authentication of Hadith is doubtful - that is why I reject the whole corpus. But you didn't say it.
For me - it is utter stupidity - to disregard the Hadith. Else you cannot understand even one letter of the Quran..
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Welcome
Don't want to waste your time repeating too much of what others have said, just posting some food for thought
-How well do you (as in you specifically) know the history you are talking about? The history of the recording of hadith and the ones who did the recording, what Imam Shafi'i actually did and how it changed the faith, that sorta thing?
-Why were things like the details of Ibn Kathir's Tafsir and various hadiths not already outlined within the Quran if they are so integral to the belief? Why do the hadith impose upon muslims so many elements of the arabic (interspersed with persian) tribal culture that the prophet Muhammad rose above and beyond in the first place?
-We know there were prophet/s sent to every nation - why was Islam, as defined very very specifically in the hadith, not followed anywhere until the hadith came about? Belief in Allah was not invented with the rise of Muhammad and contrary to popular belief in the west 'Islam' is not that literal a faith - right?You don't need to answer these in post form here (you can if you want, I guess) I recommend you browse the forum for more info.
Your "I am also curious about how you co-exist with regular Muslims since we consider you to be outside the fold of Islamic orthodoxy" comment reminds me of the typical view of westerners on muslims in general, dunno if you did that on purpose, just found it interesting. Many muslims already abstain from nailing themselves to a sect and whatnot, many also try to seperate the Quran from the culture surrounding it. Most people don't even like calling themselves Quranists/Quraniyoon/etc and try to avoid labels in general. It's not that astounding a thing that we exist, honestly.
It's a shame that the people in power in majority sunni theocratic states don't seem to share your views on freedom of information in practice. Arguably the blame belongs to the individual person and not the group of people they belong to though, perhaps.
Views on Rashad Khalifa differ around here, yeah. No harm in being led to Islam by him, many people agree that he produced the best english translation of the Quran. Just wanted to point out that he didn't claim he was a prophet, but a messenger. Again, I recommend browsing the forum for info on that, to my understanding the distinction between the two isn't even a belief that's exclusive to quran-alone muslims so maybe you've come across it already.
I hope you find your time on here productive.
it doesn't matter whether Khalifah called himself Prophet or Messenger - BOTH take him outside the fold of Islam. Risalah - is a basic tenet of being a Muslim.
" many people agree that he produced the best english translation of the Quran."
What "many people"? His basic position was wrong . . . it is like calling the translation of a non-Muslims as best . . . meaningless. As it would have NO AUTHORITY.
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There are about 11 verses in Quran instructing us to obey the Messenger . . . it is obvious - his duty is different from Jibrail - who simply conveyed the Quran.
Which ones? You don't need to quote them, just the number quotations will be fine.
rehis translation of the Quran, I was only talking about that and just that, not the person himself. Not my own view either, I was just saying that other people seem to like that translation. Feel free to disagree with me, I'm not trying to argue a point here.