True Blue Aussie Sunni
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.... to understand this Quran YOU ARE SUBJECT TO THE ARABic language
YOU MEAN SUBJECT TO THE ARABS AND THEIR TRADITIONS. After all, Arabs are the undisputed natural leaders of the Muslim nations just for being clever enough to speak their own language, right?! According to your flawed logic, the Arabs alone can explain the Qur'an just because it was revealed in their mother tongue! The matter of fact is, however, the Arabs have distorted the pure message of the Quran by twisting the meanings of the Quranic verses, to reach their desired interpretation; that is, to make it compatible with the (Arabian) tradition of their ancestors (like stoning and pedophilia).
.... ARABIC language . . . which IS CONSERVED IN form of HADITH.
During my -rather short- stay on this forum, I've seen nothing from you but irrational speculations and claims to ignorance in an attempt to shape people's opinions (mainly through "repetition," which is the most basic but effective method of brainwashing)! Next time you want to engage in an argument with someone, you might want to provide some facts and documented evidence to backup your claims. otherwise, you're just spreading misinformation by making baseless arguments and, therefore, your opinion is valueless.
Your ironic claim that Arabic is "conserved" in the "corrupted" 6 Sunni hadith collections is based on nothing but dogmatic beliefs and wishful thinking! The Glorious Qur'an is the only text on planet Earth that is widely regarded as the FINEST piece of literature in the Arabic language. thus, no need for your "Persian" hadith collectors. If you think otherwise then, you're free to believe in your own baloney.
SLM
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God bless you for that hicham9.
Peace be with you
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" According to your flawed logic, the Arabs alone can explain the Qur'an just because it was revealed in their mother tongue!"
This is NOT my logic . . .I have not once made any such argument either.
"The matter of fact is, however, the Arabs have distorted the pure message of the Quran by twisting the meanings of the Quranic verses, to reach their desired interpretation; that is, to make it compatible with the (Arabian) tradition of their ancestors (like stoning and pedophilia)."
Evidence?
And this Arabic language that is pure? Where is it?
"During my -rather short- stay on this forum, I've seen nothing from you but irrational speculations and claims to ignorance in an attempt to shape people's opinions"
This is simply your claim . . . you might want ot give it some merit - by giving some choice examples?
Else - may I point out . . . it is kind of obvious you will make up things like the above statement.
"(mainly through "repetition," which is the most basic but effective method of brainwashing)!"
Once again . . .evidence?
"Next time you want to engage in an argument with someone, you might want to provide some facts and documented evidence to backup your claims. otherwise, you're just spreading misinformation by making baseless arguments and, therefore, your opinion is valueless."
On what exactly? What baseless argument have I made?
Why is it that you failed to carry out your own good advice?
= = = =
"Your ironic claim that Arabic is "conserved" in the "corrupted" 6 Sunni hadith collections is based on nothing but dogmatic beliefs and wishful thinking! "
Sorry - but this is your misunderstanding. I never once claimed Arabic is er . . . conserved in the 6 Sunni Hadith books.
"The Glorious Qur'an is the only text on planet Earth that is widely regarded as the FINEST piece of literature in the Arabic language. thus, no need for your "Persian" hadith collectors. If you think otherwise then, you're free to believe in your own baloney."
Simple question . . . how do you know the Arabic language. . . . just answer that and you will get somewhere.
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G'day, Quranic brothers.
I'll reply as soon as I am free to do so. I will need a couple of more days, however, when I'm free from being tightly tied to my studies or work. I really welcome the number of participation and responses that I received here. But since I want to tackle the subject of Qur'an-only vs Qur'an+Hadith methodologies in my own sphere of convenience, may I ask that there not be a debate outbreak police from another opponent of Qur'an-only theology in my thread? I did not come here to provide space for other Sunnis to attack Quranites. Moreover, I do not personally attack anybody and even when I do, it's in the most academic manner possible. After all, I am only here to investigate.
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
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Peace shadowscholar,
Glad you are not associating yourself with your sunni brother that has been rather rude the last day. I have no quarrel with you or any problem with your religious practices. While I have no sunni friends I have a lot of Shia friends despite our differences.
The only "grudge" I have is against those who call me heretic, but I suppose everyone has the right to their opinion. Weird I can agree I am disregarding my Faith actually
I wonder how you can be a heretic if you believe in God, eternal life and try to be a righteous person to the best of your ability. But on a second thought, from your viewpoint I am a heretic, for according to my Longman dictionary heresy is described as this
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a belief that disagrees with the official principles of a particular religion
Of course it is difficult to really define the "official principles" of a religion. It depends on how you view the religion in the first place and which religious sources you use.
If you take the viewpoint of the majority of muslims and their faith then I am a heretic, because I disagree with traditional Islam's official principles. On the other hand, all other people except muslims which agree with the traditional practices of islam are the heretics no matter religion. So according to this logic everyone who is from Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism etc, are heretics in the eyes of muslims who choose to use this term.
So your claim that I am a heretic carries little weight as by your logic most people are already heretics, even Shia muslims, except your own sunni brethren. I will let you call me heretic, because rather that than disobeying God and His Message.
I am not going to call you heretic regardless of my feelings, because I feel it is just dogmatic and a zealous approach to force others to adopt your faith. Quran says there is no compulsion in religion, are you going to stone them or execute them when God says this?
If you are not showing this behavior then I accept your opinion and that you wish to use hadith in your practice of religion. It is you alone who answers in front of God not me.
This response was about the claim of heresy for all those who choose to follow the Quran alone but are still choosing to follow the book revealed to Muhammad. Well, conclusion is that from a point of view it could be logically viable to use this term. But I feel it is slightly lacking that bit of empathy which I think God appreciates.
Anyway, God bless you
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Take your time Shadowscholar )
Man of Faith, I agree 100%
I wonder how you can be a heretic if you believe in God, eternal life and try to be a righteous person to the best of your ability.
- a belief that disagrees with the official principles of a particular religion.
With so many schools of thought and disagreements in sects is there an "official principle"? Sometimes it makes me wonder. When I first converted it was insane how many ways I was told to do this and to do that. To me the official principle would be the commands of Allah as to what makes on a believer, found in Quran.
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"Glad you are not associating yourself with your sunni brother that has been rather rude the last day."
If the reference is pointed at me
Your definition of "rude" is very peculiar.
It is not me who has wasted time in name-calling and er. . . following me among in various threads . . . .pasting judgements. Either I am this and that . . . Satan possessed!
In reverse . . . find what I have called you? Other than repeatedly saying - no petty squabbling.
In fact you even apologised to me - after recognising it was your behaviour that was questionable. . . however in the next thread - you demonised me again.
I suffer no fools . . . and "Quran only" position to me is 100% wrong.
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Pixelrow You have practically called people fools and idiots, do not play innocent.
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THE QURAN CONTAINS EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW
http//quran.com/images/ayat/18_49.png
MUHAMMAD (AS) LEFT US THE QURAN ALONE
http//quran.com/images/ayat/10_15.png
WE ARE ORDERED TO FOLLOW THE BOOK OF ALLAH ALONE
http//quran.com/images/ayat/6_155.png
OUR RELIGION IS COMPLETE . NO OTHER DOCUMENT CAN BE USED TO SUPPLEMENT OR ADD TO THE BOOK OF ALLAH! IT'S THE OTHER WAY AROUND. NO BOOK CAN SURPASS THE QURAN.
http//c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/45_6.png
FOLLOWING THE BOOK OF ALLAH (ALONE) IS THE STRAIGHT PATH
http//quran.com/images/ayat/6_126.png
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THE QURAN CONTAINS EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW
http//quran.com/images/ayat/18_49.png
MUHAMMAD (AS) LEFT US THE QURAN ALONE
http//quran.com/images/ayat/10_15.png
WE ARE ORDERED TO FOLLOW THE BOOK OF ALLAH ALONE
http//quran.com/images/ayat/6_155.png
OUR RELIGION IS COMPLETE . NO OTHER DOCUMENT CAN BE
USED TO SUPPLEMENT OR ADD TO THE BOOK OF ALLAH
http//c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/45_6.png"THE QURAN CONTAINS EVERYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW"
Yes. . . other than an economic, education, government theories and whatnot - then there is language . . . science. . . inexact point.
Read what the verses are saying
Wealth and children are adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better to your Lord for reward and better for hope.
And the Day when We will remove the mountains and you will see the earth prominent, and We will gather them and not leave behind from them anyone.
And they will be presented before your Lord in rows, , "You have certainly come to Us just as We created you the first time. But you claimed that We would never make for you an appointment."
And the record will be placed , and you will see the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present . And your Lord does injustice to no one.
1846-49
Does the verse hint at what you are saying? No.
"MUHAMMAD (AS) LEFT US THE QURAN ALONE"
And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, those who do not expect the meeting with Us say, "Bring us a Qur'an other than this or change it." Say, , "It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I only follow what is revealed to me. Indeed I fear, if I should disobey my Lord, the punishment of a tremendous Day."
Does this say - Prophet Muhammad left us Quran alone? No.
"WE ARE ORDERED TO FOLLOW THE BOOK OF ALLAH ALONE"
The alone is by you . . . . as mentioned above . . . is following theories of education or good governance forbidden? No.
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". . . This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. . . . "
Yes - of course it is.
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These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?
Hadith do not "add" to the book of Allah.
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pixelrow,
Hadith do add to Quran. Where do you get stoning or other ways to execute those who leave Islam from? It is not in Quran.
(ignore did unfortunately not work on forum posts)
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Stoning is not a punishment prescribed by the Quran. In fact
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
- 2256
There is no punishment for those who "leave Islam" or are not willing submitters (like those who are expected to be muslims because they were born in a specific country or family and never even made it their choice).
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OUR RELIGION IS COMPLETE
". . . This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. . . . "
Yes - of course it is.
You don't seem to be aware of the basic logical contradictions in your statements and beliefs! How can you admit that ALLAH completed our religion for us in the first quarter of the 7th century YET still insist on following fabrications (attributed to ALLAH and the prophet) that were written by some persian parsi imams hundreds of years after the death of our dear prophet?!!!
Sigh...
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It is not me who has wasted time in name-calling and er. . . following me among in various threads . . . .pasting judgements. Either I am this and that . . . Satan possessed!
But most it's you who doing it.
Yes. . . other than an economic, education, government theories and whatnot - then there is language . . . science. . . inexact point.
Your fault is hadith never tell something in sistematical ways.Quran, hadith n another scriptures only talk about etiquote n morals.
I challenge you to find, govermental system like excecutif, legislatif, jurisdiction on Khilafah system using Hadith alone.
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Assalamu alaikum.
Wallah please forgive me, dear brothers. I've been so busy, and I study multiple degrees so I am tied with a very stressed schedule.
I'll try to reply today insha Allah D
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But most it's you who doing it.
Your fault is hadith never tell something in sistematical ways.Quran, hadith n another scriptures only talk about etiquote n morals.
I challenge you to find, govermental system like excecutif, legislatif, jurisdiction on Khilafah system using Hadith alone.
"But most it's you who doing it. "
If you are going to accuse me . . .any examples?
Did you miss the point? Quran is actually not enough - as it is simply a blueprint - guiding the essentials. We also live off and formulate "human knowledge" . . . it would be illogical to the extreme to declare this as invalid because of Quran. If we take the purely religious theology - then it is virtually impossible to live by the Quran alone.
No one does.
"I challenge you to find, govermental system like excecutif, legislatif, jurisdiction on Khilafah system using Hadith alone."
Sure . . . but this is extremely EXTENSIVE work . . . and there are many books - but Muslims and non-Muslim academics about this. However - as no one is advocating that it is "Hadith alone" can give us a governmental systems and what not . . . why did you aim such a challenge at me?
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You don't seem to be aware of the basic logical contradictions in your statements and beliefs! How can you admit that ALLAH completed our religion for us in the first quarter of the 7th century YET still insist on following fabrications (attributed to ALLAH and the prophet) that were written by some persian parsi imams hundreds of years after the death of our dear prophet?!!!
Sigh...
Such accusations are extremely simplistic and childish. . . here is why
"that were written by some persian parsi imams hundreds of years after the death of our dear prophet"
Such as?
"How can you admit that ALLAH completed our religion for us in the first quarter of the 7th century YET still insist on following fabrications"
Try reading the Verse again . . . does it say Hadith are invalid? No. Does it say. . . Quran alone. . . no.
"You don't seem to be aware of the basic logical contradictions in your statements and beliefs! "
As there are none there . . . might I suggest putting a little bit of work . . . before formulating such poor reply.
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pixelrow,
Hadith do add to Quran. Where do you get stoning or other ways to execute those who leave Islam from? It is not in Quran.
(ignore did unfortunately not work on forum posts)
P -X
So you got me banned . . . by calling me all sorts . . . yet you still cannot help it. I reckon - you just fancy me. . . . -*
tempt got to you.
D Even if I am "satan" possessed.
"Hadith do add to Quran. Where do you get stoning or other ways to execute those who leave Islam from? It is not in Quran."
It doesn't add to the Quran. Sunni laws are derived from Quran and Hadith and consensus . However - contradictory Hadith are not implemented.
Also
488
What is with you two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way .
489
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
Also
After passing away of the Prophet Muhammad - many tribes went back to Kufr - many were fought against and killed.