True Blue Aussie Sunni
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Peace pixelrow,
Can you explain why you cannot understand a single word of the Quran without hadith?
I think the Quran makes things pretty simple and that God's words are pretty straightforward without any hadith.
My verse I referred to is 6944 and I can admit the verse does not outright say what I quoted out of my mind. My apologies for that. Anyway, I still interpret it that hadith is a source of information outside God's revelations and are hardly relevant to understand the Message, Quran.
I may admit that there could be occasional wise words in hadith, but that does not make it any more special than the wise words from any source.
Both your approach towards me and other members on this forum is highly inappropriate. Could you perhaps tone down on your arrogance a bit?
If you are a man of great logic then please give me a satisfying answer to the first question I asked in this post, without your arrogant, belittling remarks please. Give your opinion without any irrelevant comments on our personal skills.
I wish you peace, are you wishing us peace?
God bless you regardless
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You cannot understand one word Quran - even one letter without Hadith. It is impossible. . . else - how do you know the language? (1.Does Quran teach you that?) Read the statement you are answering to . . . (2. you completely missed he point.)
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"Indeed, We have sent it down as an (3. Arabic) Qur'an that you might understand."
Doh! And how do you learn this Arabic?
(4.Your attitude to Hadith is plain wrong.)
- Paradox statment, because Arabic as a language we have it now didn't exist in that time. Find history about Arabic language and prove yourself.
- Read ma answer/s again but please from my point of view and without prejudices.
- What means arabiyyan as an adjective? Arabic (language)???
- As far as I can see you don't accept my attitude.
Some people they are in a state of mental pressure say/do unreflected things.
Additionally, your response to my posts trying to illustrate me as stupido and your words are screaming from pain, as if I have hurt you personally. Do you see anywhere in my post I wanted to atack you personally?
If so, then you have misunderstood.I would be appriciate if you can seperate human and his actually acts and that will lead to a constructive conversation.
May God Allmighty pardon us, forgive us and be mercifully upon us.
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You cannot understand one word Quran - even one letter without Hadith. It is impossible. . . else - how do you know the language? Does Quran teach you that? Read the statement you are answering to . . . you completely missed he point.
Hadith is absolute misguiding from the path of Allah.
Red Yes, alQuraan teach us what each and every word means. Please take a look at my reply # 4 of this thread or click here to see how. I personally find Allah is much sufficient for me to guide and explain what He wants me to understand from alQuraan, alhamduliAllah hail
May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His truth pr
mmKhan -
@Bridy
Try not to play any kind of victim . . . and try sticking to the topic. I am not one jolt interested in - attacking you personally. . . and decorating your responses with such silly spiels is not going to move me. . .
Also - seeking false credence from such spiel is illogical.
Getting back to the actual issues. . .
"1. Paradox statment, because Arabic as a language we have it now didn't exist in that time. Find history about Arabic language and prove yourself."
I didn't comprehend your meaning.
Arabic is passed down . . . it has full history . . . now those who reject hadith . . . simply cannot understand a single letter of the Quran. Else how can you?
For example - What does this word mean ?
"2. Read ma answer/s again but please from my point of view and without prejudices."
If I did not understand it in the 1st not much chance of doing that again . . . either re-phrase it for if you can please. . . else leave it.
"4. As far as I can see you don't accept my attitude. "
Yes - denying hadith is utter stupidity. As I have said . . . without Hadith - you cannot understand a single letter of the Quran.
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" Hadith has different dialeg n linguistic from the Quran.Because look like you already study hadith, you may realize it too.
So even we read Hadith translation, we are still confused, and still need tons of tafseer books."You have misunderstood. Arabic too has been passed down to us in Hadith format . . . it is how Muslims codified history . . . read the great Arabic lexicons . . . what are they Hadith.
Then there is context of Quran - which is life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad - there many verses that require this context - else there is not much meaning to them.
"The hadith's lack is the hadith only take a quote from Prophet saying without knowing what situation Prophet says that."
This is plainly wrong. Evidence? Examples? Further Explanation?
"ExampleFrom the story,of Muhammad (Pbuh) told Aisyah to take out curtain with pictures, and trash it.This hadith is always used by Ulamas as bases for banning human n animal pictures.
Unfortunatelly we don't know the real situation for why Muhammad (Pbuh) told Aisyah to take out the curtain, maybe he ask this because the curtain is dirty, or maybe already old.We don't know."This is too vague and ambiguous . . . you need to give proper references. Also - drawing of animate being is forbidden by several Hadith and not one.
"Recently I realize, if unique of Arabic is the Arabic language is not or have little changes, from Muhammad's time to now.It's different from English language, if you ask Queen Elizabeth II to speak to her ancestor like King Arthur, she will confused because different dialeg."
I fail to see - what that has got to do with anything?
"How we learn Arabic?of course we must study Arabic language."
And where do you think this "learning" comes from?
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@ Man of Faith
"Can you explain why you cannot understand a single word of the Quran without hadith?"
In short - 2 reasons . . .
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The Arabic language - it is conveyed and conserved in Hadith.
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Quran did not come in a vacuum - but 23 years of Prophet Muhammad's life . . . many of it verses require that context - else they are virtually meaningless.
Addition
- General history. It is UTTER stupidity to cut that out . . . one loses over 1500yrs if one accept the "quran-only" position.
"I think the Quran makes things pretty simple and that God's words are pretty straightforward without any hadith."
Not so.
One example
See the word - Quru . . .
What does it mean? Please explain this to me in detail . . . exactly how do you know what this word means?
"I still interpret it that hadith is a source of information outside God's revelations and are hardly relevant to understand the Message, Quran."
Sorry it doesn't work that way. 2 gave two source - one you retracted and other turned out not to be what you claimed.
"I may admit that there could be occasional wise words in hadith, but that does not make it any more special than the wise words from any source."
Not so . . . there is NO OTHER source like Hadith . . . else what is it?
Hence it is stupidity to compare with with these unknown mysterious sources.
= = =
"Both your approach towards me and other members on this forum is highly inappropriate. Could you perhaps tone down on your arrogance a bit?"
I am going to say this once . . . if you keep insisting on this . . . I will just ignore you.
I am not one bit interested in petty quarrels. If you do not like my tone - ignore me! As simple as that.
And then it is YOU personally attacking me . . . .look at this repeated "arrogance" accusation.
If you wish to have a meaningful discussion fine . . . else move on.
"If you are a man of great logic then please give me a satisfying answer to the first question I asked in this post, without your arrogant, belittling remarks please. Give your opinion without any irrelevant comments on our personal skills."
Why do you do - EXACTLY - what you claim is what I do?
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Quru' can be mean purity it's from plural qar'u can also translated into menstruation.
By the way in Sunni teaching, there is differences between Imam Syafi'i and Abu Hanafi for what is the meaning of "quru"
Due from the verse context, quru' can has same meaning to idhah (waiting period).
I already debate with Sunnis in domestic forum n now I have some combat kits against Sunni.
@Pixelrow, I'm very honorable to debate with you, but you must create a new topic in general issues board and not in this board.Plus no ad hominem or bad words. -
May God forgive you pixelrow,
You will get just what you said, I will ignore your aggressive and arrogant arguments. There is nothing to win by arguing with you. I have my view and you have yours, it seems you will not abandon this view in the first place.
But before I end I will say that my opinion is that you make an illogical conclusion in your determination that hadith is necessary to understand Quran. This means I do not understand the Quran at all while I still read it to gain inspiration in my life.
Have it your way. I do not understand a thing about the Quran, but rather that than live a life in falsehood with questionable hadith.
I am not a "Muslim" with capital 'M', I am a Beliver in God following His Sunnah. I do not want to be associated with people like you.
Come back when Satan has departed from your soul and we can have an intelligent discussion. There are other mislead traditional muslims that are more "religious" than you.
God bless you regardless
To Moderators You can be assured I will not continue any more quarrel here. This was a mere finalizer and an attempt at showing I do not tolerate this conduct.
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"Can you explain why you cannot understand a single word of the Quran without hadith?"
In short - 2 reasons . . .
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The Arabic language - it is conveyed and conserved in Hadith.
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Quran did not come in a vacuum - but 23 years of Prophet Muhammad's life . . . many of it verses require that context - else they are virtually meaningless.
Addition
- General history. It is UTTER stupidity to cut that out . . . one loses over 1500yrs if one accept the "quran-only" position.
"I think the Quran makes things pretty simple and that God's words are pretty straightforward without any hadith."
Not so.
One example
See the word - Quru . . .
What does it mean? Please explain this to me in detail . . . exactly how do you know what this word means?
"I still interpret it that hadith is a source of information outside God's revelations and are hardly relevant to understand the Message, Quran."
Sorry it doesn't work that way. 2 gave two source - one you retracted and other turned out not to be what you claimed.
"I may admit that there could be occasional wise words in hadith, but that does not make it any more special than the wise words from any source."
Not so . . . there is NO OTHER source like Hadith . . . else what is it?
Hence it is stupidity to compare with with these unknown mysterious sources.
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"Both your approach towards me and other members on this forum is highly inappropriate. Could you perhaps tone down on your arrogance a bit?"
I am going to say this once . . . if you keep insisting on this . . . I will just ignore you.
I am not one bit interested in petty quarrels. If you do not like my tone - ignore me! As simple as that.
And then it is YOU personally attacking me . . . .look at this repeated "arrogance" accusation.
If you wish to have a meaningful discussion fine . . . else move on.
"If you are a man of great logic then please give me a satisfying answer to the first question I asked in this post, without your arrogant, belittling remarks please. Give your opinion without any irrelevant comments on our personal skills."
Why do you do - EXACTLY - what you claim is what I do?
i guess you have some difficulties in the arabic language,i refer you to the arabic dictionary which will help you to understand words in more details
http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=
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The Arabic language - it is conveyed and conserved in Hadith.
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Quran did not come in a vacuum - but 23 years of Prophet Muhammad's life . . . many of it verses require that context - else they are virtually meaningless.
Addition
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General history. It is UTTER stupidity to cut that out . . . one loses over 1500yrs if one accept the "quran-only" position.
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Others have answered this point, in this thread and in others, better than I can.
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Do you ever wonder why that context wasn't already contained within the Quran? The Quran effectively being incomplete by itself has massive consequences for the countries like China (and potentially East Asia in general) where, going by my own experience over there atleast, the Quran has spread but far less people are aware of hadith (barring the "Seek knowledge as far as China" hadith which is an empowering saying for many of the hard-working people over there...everyone I know that's knowledgeable on the matter insists that it's a weak hadith that is not to be trusted though...) There are about as many muslims in China as there are in Saudi Arabia - heck there are probably more as the Chinese government is quite lax on moderating and keeping tabs on the religious in most cases - so this is a pretty big deal.
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Hadith generally wasn't really seen as an explicit source of history (by both muslims and non-muslim western historians) alongside it's established role as a source of law until...around the early 1900s I think. Perhaps due to the feel of a need to establish a background to the new rising political Islam idealogies of the time. It's really a better biography of 8th & 9th century Arab life (weirdly, all six of the al-kutub al-sittah were authored by Persians) than a biography of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh - but even then it's shakey. Hadith is followed less because it's a solid historical source and more because it's all we have.
edit you can reply to this post in the other thread in the hadith section if you want, we're all very off-topic here.
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Peace FearGod,
The moderators moved the hadith discussion to the appropriate forum section. Go there to continue discuss hadith please.
God bless you
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"To Moderators You can be assured I will not continue any more quarrel here. This was a mere finalizer and an attempt at showing I do not tolerate this conduct."
If this was remotely true . . .then you would have stayed quiet - rather than
"Come back when Satan has departed from your soul and we can have an intelligent discussion. There are other mislead traditional muslims that are more "religious" than you."
See - this is demonising me - and a personal attack!
"But before I end I will say that my opinion is that you make an illogical conclusion in your determination that hadith is necessary to understand Quran. This means I do not understand the Quran at all while I still read it to gain inspiration in my life."
Hardly - the point was so accurate - it forced you to to resort to this . . .
I asked you a simple question . . . look you avoided it and made your excuses.
Nothing more to be said.
I am 100% right in stating - one cannot know the Quran - without Hadith.
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@ Azz
" going by my own experience over there atleast, the Quran has spread but far less people are aware of hadith (barring the "Seek knowledge as far as China" hadith which is an empowering saying for many of the hard-working people over there"
That is not my experience - I have met Ulema from China - studying in India and Saudi and other Arab countries.
There are Chinese translations of all Major works of Hadith. I have met Sunni scholars of China - they teach and learn Fiqh and etc.
"everyone I know that's knowledgeable on the matter insists that it's a weak hadith that is not to be trusted though"
Who exactly are you talking about here?
"There are about as many muslims in China as there are in Saudi Arabia - heck there are probably more as the Chinese government is quite lax on moderating and keeping tabs on the religious in most cases - so this is a pretty big deal.
"I doubt it . . . there are about 20million in both countries. Plus - Saudi has several million non-Arab Muslims too.
I fail to see this big consequence . . .
= = =
"Hadith generally wasn't really seen as an explicit source of history (by both muslims and non-muslim western historians) alongside it's established role as a source of law until...around the early 1900s I think."
Are you for real? Sorry - but what Arabic books of history have you read? Who have you read on the subject? What historians?
"It's really a better biography of 8th & 9th century Arab life"
Do you have anything more to say than this opinion? I do not find it credible at all.
"(weirdly, all six of the al-kutub al-sittah were authored by Persians) "
A moot point . . . as many other great scholars, sufis and scientists were Persian or belonging to Persia. Abu Hanifah, Rumi, Jami, Biruni, Abdul Qadir Jilani . . .
Even more interesting is that those who established and excelled in Arabic Linguistics too were Persian - Ibn Sibwayah and Jurjani for example.
The most authentic book of Hadith is in fact Malik's Muwatta - but it is contained within Bukhari. Then there are many Hadith books by Arab authors . . . it is just that none reached such popularity. And it is only this popularity among other Muslim scholars that they this status.
"than a biography of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh - but even then it's shakey. "
Hadith Corpus is far bigger simply the Sirah . . . it is the way Muslims codified history.
"Hadith is followed less because it's a solid historical source and more because it's all we have."
Hadith has a complete methodology - it is NOT just about the texts them self. . . .the trust is the principles and in the text - of course it is all we have!
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Peace pixelrow
In your world you are right, yes. Why is so important to be right anyway?
God bless you
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Peace pixelrow
In your world you are right, yes. Why is so important to be right anyway?
God bless you
Is this a serious question? Who lives in being wrong and false? I can safely say . . . I have never been asked this question. I would have thought - humans automatically knew - why the "truth" was important. . . something internal within us.
Irrespective of religion and whatnot - all humans value "truth" - even the liar will not say that lying is a virtue!
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on the point of China, it seems like it might just be my word against yours. I'm going by my experience when I visted family in Guangzhou a few years back (beautiful city, I recommend going to there to anyone if you ever have the chance) and I went to a couple mosques while I was there (one was the famous Huasheng Mosque, the other was a smaller one closer to where I was staying, can't remember the name of that one sorry) and talked to the imams there and stuff. I wouldn't be surprised if there were hadith scholars and the like over there, what I was trying to say (and I appreciate if my original post was unclear in this regard, my bad) was that it didn't seem to be as ingrained into the muslim culture over there as it was in Saudi Arabia. According to you it's absolutely integral to the faith (more on that in a minute)
The "seek knowledge even as far as China" hadith is pretty well-known, right? Especially so amongst Chinese muslims. Apparantly it's not even authentic though - I might be wrong here, if I am then please correct me.
There are no proper records on the number of muslims in China, people estimate anywhere from 10 million to 100 million (I find the latter a little hard to believe though) Like I said, the Chinese govt is quite lax on recording these numbers. When I was talking about Saudi Arabia I was referring to it's total population and not just the arab population.
The 1900s is something in particular I remember reading somewhere, I'll try and find it for you when I have the time. I think it may have been in one of Jonathan Brown's books but I'm not certain. I shouldn't have mentioned it without a source and I was foolish in doing so, I realise that now and I'll retract that statement until I can find the source.
It is more accurate to say that the hadith records views possibly present in the 8th & 9th century Arabia as opposed to the views in 6th & 7th century, we agree on that much right? In your view it would probably be a very minor distinction, I appreciate that.
Do you not find it odd that the whole discourse on this topic, integral to the way life in Arabia was, was headded by the work of people not native to the area though? I don't want to repeat what others have said too much, you must've come across the claim that early arabs were not interested in recording Prophet Muhammad pbuh's life. If you don't mind me asking, what is your view on that?
Cutting my "all we have" part from the 8th & 9th century and persian authorship points sorta makes it lose it's meaning.
By the way, what about the very beginning of my point? "Do you ever wonder why that context wasn't already contained within the Quran?" The context being what's set out in hadith. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything by repeating this, but this is sorta why I started rambling on about China in my post in the first place, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this question.
regarding you "I am 100% right in stating - one cannot know the Quran - without Hadith. " - I just want to say that I'm completely open to persuasion here. I disagree that you've succesfully argued your case, atleast from the posts of yours that I've seen, though if you do clearly prove that what you're saying is true and following the Quran alone is false, I'll gladly become a sunni. On that note, the past page or so has been almost nothing but name-calling, if you don't mind I'd like to backpedal the discussion a little. Early you replied to Hicham9's post regarding 456, which I'll repost the Sahih International translation of for the sake of clarity of discussion
"These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?"
You replied by saying this doesn't apply to hadith as sunnis aren't supposed to equate it to the Quran in the first place - but that seems like a very narrow definition to me. Surely does it not refer to associating things with Allah's message in general? Does using the hadith to explain, define, and set criteria for not do exactly this? Keeping in mind the various "The Quran is clear" verses others in this thread and others have cited?
Someone earlier mentioned the idea that some sunnis "worship Muhammad pbuh", you replied saying something along the lines of how we're instructed to respect the prophet and nothing more. Technically you're not wrong here. But I wanted to get your thoughts on something related to this, if that's okay. What is your opinion on the whole "it is forbidden to draw images of Muhammad" thing?
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Peace pixelrow,
You are right. I have touched the tantamount of personal assault. I am sorry.
God bless you
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Shadowscholar, Welcome to the forum.
You asked how to co-exist with others muslims. I am active in my community. I gave a speech at an Islamic Women's Conference, that our Masjid held. I was just asked to be on our Chaplin board (visiting the prisons, talking to converts, wash bodies and such). This week I will speak at a conference called "meet your Muslim neighbor", again held at my masjid. These new duties and places I am entering are all due to Allah, but I don't isolate myself. I am a convert and for me the Hadith had me almost leave this faith, it made me question the Prophet's prophet hood, among other things... just being honest.
I don't say the hadith are the words of satan, I just take them with a grain of salt. I use them as a historic view point. For me, Islam exists with or without hadith because Allah will always exist and so will his Quran. If Islam for you would not exist without the hadith, what then about your Qu'ran?? I don't think I could live without my Quran.
But welcome to the forum, I don't see anything wrong with polite debating, it is an opportunity to see another point of view. I know you think I am a heretic, but I can't really say that to you, Allah knows your heart not I. God bless, looking forward to some posts.
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"on the point of China, it seems like it might just be my word against yours."
To some extent yes . . . however even on Internet there is a lot of evidence available. Also - your implication that China ia distant land and hence cut off is very old prejudice! I am surprised at you.
China is a quite and advanced country - apparently, they have more second language speakers of English than the population of USA. Why would they not be familiar with Hadith? Look at the extent of Islam in India and then closeness to China. It is inconceivable China has been living in the dark ages. . . I am sure even you have Zheng He.
"was that it didn't seem to be as ingrained into the muslim culture over there as it was in Saudi Arabia. According to you it's absolutely integral to the faith (more on that in a minute)"
Faith is China IS different from Saudi . . . as most Muslims of China belong to Sufi Tradition and are Sunni. Yes it is integral . . . according to China Islamic Assoc - more than 45,000 people have performed Hajj since 2002-2008. And that is a lot of people.
"The "seek knowledge even as far as China" hadith is pretty well-known, right? Especially so amongst Chinese muslims. Apparantly it's not even authentic though - I might be wrong here, if I am then please correct me."
Apparently it is not an Hadith . . . just a saying of some scholar.
"There are no proper records on the number of muslims in China, people estimate anywhere from 10 million to 100 million (I find the latter a little hard to believe though) Like I said, the Chinese govt is quite lax on recording these numbers. When I was talking about Saudi Arabia I was referring to it's total population and not just the arab population."
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China#Number_of_Muslims_in_China
"Do you not find it odd that the whole discourse on this topic, integral to the way life in Arabia was, was headded by the work of people not native to the area though?"
Not one bit . . .as I have said . . . it NOT just in this field. . . Persians are prominent in EVERY field. . .
Arabic Language and Linguistics - there are no bigger names than Jurjani and Sibwayah.
Fiqh - likes of Abu Hanifah - the madhab most Muslims are part of.
Science, Poetry, Sufis, Artists . . . Persians are EVERYWHERE.
Also . . .
As I pointed out these books became famous for quality of scholarship. If you scratch the surface - there are many many Arabic hadith books . . . EVEN the Arabs preferred these 6.
Second - ALL HADITH sources go back to mostly Arabs anyway.
"I don't want to repeat what others have said too much, you must've come across the claim that early arabs were not interested in recording Prophet Muhammad pbuh's life. If you don't mind me asking, what is your view on that?"
That is just badly thought out view - there is no support for it. The order to canonize Hadith came during time of Uthamn. But he was assassinated. Think about it . . . all famous personality and their lives to certain extent are recorded . . . Aristotle - for example.
So why wouldn't they record what the Prophet Muhammad taught?
"Do you ever wonder why that context wasn't already contained within the Quran?"
Yes . . . but as such you can ask millions of questions and never get anywhere. . . like why did hte Quran take 23 years . . . why did start to reveal when the Prophet Muhammad was about 40.
If you take Hadith away - Quran IS left somewhat meaningless . . . it is EASY to see it charts the life of Prophet Muhammad - many verses need this context.
Why is this context separate?
For me - Islam at very core is 2 things . . . . belief in 1 god and that Prophet Muhammad is his final Messenger.
Now Quran gives us Tawhid and Hadith the Risalah. I find it stupidity the attempts at Prophet Muhammad's station . . .
Also - notice it is ESSENTIAL to learn Arabic . . . as this the language of the Quran.
" I disagree that you've succesfully argued your case, atleast from the posts of yours that I've seen, though if you do clearly prove that what you're saying is true and following the Quran alone is false, I'll gladly become a sunni."
All I can answer is reply to others . . . . after this is a discussion forum. I am not writing systematic articles.
Also - how does one go about proving that "Quran only" is false - other than counter their ideology and objections . . . and I can answer EVERYTHING . . . to my own satisfaction.
The only way I can prove Sunni position is by countering the objections raised against it. So far - I have not come across a single issue I cannot answer.
"You replied by saying this doesn't apply to hadith as sunnis aren't supposed to equate it to the Quran in the first place - but that seems like a very narrow definition to me. Surely does it not refer to associating things with Allah's message in general?"
Aren't suppose to - is incorrect . . . right thing to say is - DO NOT.
How does Hadith shade the Quran? Those Hadith that are clearly contradictory are rejected. . . in Hanafi Principles of Fiqh. Hadith are not equal to in rank to the Quran.
One can turn this argument on its head and accuse the "Quran only" of doing the same thing . . . "human reason" is used to judge Quran and hence meanings are altered to suit the going Western Ideals. . . now isn't that associating with Quran at parameters far more closer than the Hadith Corpus applied by either Sunni or the Shia?
Another aspect is application of Quranic law . . . what system and consistent methodology have the "Quran only" developed? None. Nothing . . . else do point me to some material. Whoever wishes - does what he likes . . .
In this forum for example . . .I have come across someone - who when cornered - spewed easy lies . . . he has no expertise in Arabic - came up with strange explanation - but when challenged - just started lying!
In reverse . . . Sunni have a methodology of discerning law from Quran & Hadith. It is known as Usul al-Fiqh - it perhaps the most advanced Islamic science there is. It requires skilled knowledge of Language and Linguistics, Logic, Law and etc - it is used to form law. It is set of clear principles - as to how law is derived . . .
Do the "Quran only" have any such comparative? No. Then what accountability do you have? Why should thoughts of those who have so limited a knowledge be of any worth? If there is no system to assess them?
Science for example has . . . the scientific method . . . all new discoveries, claims and theories are bound by it. You can just make anything up.
This would turn into longish debate . . . so I will end with asking - what do you know about Usul al-Fiqh?
Isn't it interesting . . . number of "Quran only" scholars have extremely little knowledge about how Hadith is codified into law by the various Sunni Madhabs?
Their rejection is more out of ignorance than understanding. . . look even when it comes to the Quran - your "experts" on this site hardly know the Quran . . . I have repeatedly seen it . . . the arguments are basic and generally invalid at quite a basic level.
Even so called experts like Yuksel are poor . . . he resorts to inventing new meanings to the Arabic words from himself. As he rejects all hadith - he is not bound by set laws of Arabic . . . hence he is free to invent new meanings.
"Does using the hadith to explain, define, and set criteria for not do exactly this? Keeping in mind the various "The Quran is clear" verses others in this thread and others have cited?"
Let me ask you a simple question . . . .
Verse 2228
There is the word Quru. . . - explain to me what is means . . . and how do you know what it means?
See . . . "Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods"
Divorced women are meant to wait 3 "periods" - so what are these periods?
The exercise - you will find useful to carry out!
"Someone earlier mentioned the idea that some sunnis "worship Muhammad pbuh""
That is baseless and absurd. The person said "idolized" . . . that respect of the Prophet is "idolatry" - which is completely absurd. One respects many people . . . BESIDES Allah - is that all Shirk? What a ridiculous idea . . . it is in the Quran . . . CLEAR VERSES - to respect the prophet. I have already given many verses . . . as you already know the page . . . I don't need to repeat this.
"But I wanted to get your thoughts on something related to this, if that's okay. What is your opinion on the whole "it is forbidden to draw images of Muhammad" thing?"
True - but it is forbidden to draw images of ALL animate begins - according to the Sunni - of course.
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Shadowscholar, Welcome to the forum. )
You asked how to co-exist with others muslims. I am active in my community. I gave a speech at an Islamic Women's Conference, that our Masjid held. I was just asked to be on our Chaplin board (visiting the prisons, talking to converts, wash bodies and such). This week I will speak at a conference called "meet your Muslim neighbor", again held at my masjid. These new duties and places I am entering are all due to Allah, but I don't isolate myself. I am a convert and for me the Hadith had me almost leave this faith, it made me question the Prophet's prophet hood, among other things... just being honest.
I don't say the hadith are the words of satan, I just take them with a grain of salt. I use them as a historic view point. For me, Islam exists with or without hadith because Allah will always exist and so will his Quran. If Islam for you would not exist without the hadith, what then about your Qu'ran?? I don't think I could live without my Quran.
But welcome to the forum, I don't see anything wrong with polite debating, it is an opportunity to see another point of view. I know you think I am a heretic, but I can't really say that to you, Allah knows your heart not I. God bless, looking forward to some posts.
"what then about your Qu'ran?? I don't think I could live without my Quran."
Yet to understand this Quran you are subject to the Arabic language . . . which is conserved in form of Hadith.
"For me, Islam exists with or without hadith because Allah will always exist and so will his Quran."
Saying this is of no great consequence . . . as ALL Muslims agree to it. That is not the point of contention.