What is God's role with Born Disabled?
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Here's some info that drfazl has not said about the polio vaccine
Before invention of the polio vaccine, 13,000 to 20,000 people were paralyzed by polio, and about 1,000 people died from it each year in the United States. Two main types of polio vaccination have been used injection with killed polioviruses (IPV) or swallowing weakened (attenuated) polioviruses (OPV). Widespread vaccination has eliminated polio from the U.S. and the entire Western Hemisphere1, although it remains a threat in a few remaining countries in Africa and South East Asia.
However, about 1 out of 2.4 million doses of OPV distributed in the US, caused vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP).3 This is because OPV contains live-attenuated viruses that sometimes become neurovirulent?cause paralysis?again.4 Immune-compromised people are at increased risk for VAPP and may shed neurovirulent viruses for years. Continuous circulation of OPV-derived viruses in populations with poor hygiene and low immunity levels can lead to rare outbreaks of polio.2
In the United States, a new polio vaccine schedule was recommended in 1997 using both IPV and OPV3. Then, in 2000, an all-IPV schedule was recommended.5 OPV is no longer recommended and is not available for routine use in the US, although it is widely used elsewhere.
OPV continues to be used in countries where polio infections still occur and may be used if there were to be an outbreak in the United States?as OPV is felt by many to be the preferred vaccine to contain an outbreak. The World Health Organization estimates between 250 and 500 cases of VAPP occur each year worldwide.6
References
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine
http//www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-safety/post-polio-syndrome-vaccine-associated-paralytic-polio-and-poliomyelitis-elimi -
I had nothing against anyone except that I believed in Allah, the Almighty, worthy of all Praise! And that I stood by that.
Raving extremist! Literal Extremist Disease! Can you back these up with verses to support you in the least?
I suggest that you go back and read your posts. You have called doctors shaitaans, evil. You have a lot against doctors. You called me names, putting me down, insulting me, accusing me of hating God when I called you out on your false claims, asking you to explain, providing evidence.
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Justamuslim,
I believe in "God Alone". You believe in "God Also" along with doctors for health care and for safety from death. This is a grave sin God will never forgive. You will not take risk by believing in God Alone without involving in association; I say it is a sin so stay away from doctors and the ways of the majority people. You began countering forcefully and your post as a whole is the evidence. Please do not take it wrong that I meant you are full of hate towards God.
fazl
exposing your false claims (ex all mutations are caused by doctors) and exposing you, drfazl - you consider that "countering forcefully"? Do you feel being "attacked" Drfazl? Every time you say something, here I am providing information giving a more complete picture, questioning your claims, asking you to provide evidence, calling you out and on your behavior.
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God says that going to a doctor is a grave sin? I am sure being that you truly follow God Alone and have read the Koran, you know the consequences of attributing things to God. And also making false accusations without evidence.
Again how am I full of hate towards God? Because I don't hold your hatred towards doctors and buy your baseless, false claims that means I hate God and have full of hate towards God alone? Is this what you are saying?
Justamuslim, read post # 87 my answer is clear. I believe in God-Alone; You believe in God-Also. I refer to your hatred Against God-Alone. Is that clear to you? Read again.
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Here's some info that drfazl has not said about the polio vaccine
Before invention of the polio vaccine, 13,000 to 20,000 people were paralyzed by polio, and about 1,000 people died from it each year in the United States. Two main types of polio vaccination have been used injection with killed polioviruses (IPV) or swallowing weakened (attenuated) polioviruses (OPV). Widespread vaccination has eliminated polio from the U.S. and the entire Western Hemisphere1, although it remains a threat in a few remaining countries in Africa and South East Asia.
However, about 1 out of 2.4 million doses of OPV distributed in the US, caused vaccine-associated paralytic polio (VAPP).3 This is because OPV contains live-attenuated viruses that sometimes become neurovirulent?cause paralysis?again.4 Immune-compromised people are at increased risk for VAPP and may shed neurovirulent viruses for years. Continuous circulation of OPV-derived viruses in populations with poor hygiene and low immunity levels can lead to rare outbreaks of polio.2
In the United States, a new polio vaccine schedule was recommended in 1997 using both IPV and OPV3. Then, in 2000, an all-IPV schedule was recommended.5 OPV is no longer recommended and is not available for routine use in the US, although it is widely used elsewhere.
OPV continues to be used in countries where polio infections still occur and may be used if there were to be an outbreak in the United States?as OPV is felt by many to be the preferred vaccine to contain an outbreak. The World Health Organization estimates between 250 and 500 cases of VAPP occur each year worldwide.6
References
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine
http//www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-safety/post-polio-syndrome-vaccine-associated-paralytic-polio-and-poliomyelitis-elimiThanks for endorsing my view that MM is still not sure what to do when they change the vaccination program and patterns so many times and wait for a few more years, they would change their strategy of vaccination and. They would keep doing it endlessly. This is scientific approach.
If you seriously want to discuss the issue of vaccination start from the scratch. I am ready to discuss MM's monkey business thoroughly.
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I suggest that you go back and read your posts. You have called doctors shaitaans, evil. You have a lot against doctors. You called me names, putting me down, insulting me, accusing me of hating God when I called you out on your false claims, asking you to explain, providing evidence.
I have a whole lot of things against MM's idiocy as its policy and hypotheses for treating patients. You ask me to go back and read my own posts when you do not do the same. After my explanation to your query you seem to pose the same question over and over again...
When I tried explaining you little by little starting from my # post 87, without answering you drove me back to provide evidence that you hated God. Now suddenly you jump back to MM subject and say "I am explaining this and that!" You see my post I have given 2272 which says about mentioning God Alone, makes the haters angry. Even now I say I am against "God-Also" category. Calling you as God hater is wrong I know. I am referring you as God Alone hater. Read 14 and see for yourself if you could seek the Help of others other than the God?
First confirm and fix which subject you want to discuss and then stick to that topic.
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What I have been asserting is God's way is exclusively decisive while the doctors' ways are potentially delusive. An anti rabies by itself has the potential to cause rabies and anti rabies injection is protecting against rabies is myth in many cases; and you shall know the MM says vaccine against polio causes poliomyelitis, terming the occurrence as VAPP - Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio. And for your information most infections are becoming in curable today. And God says
And if Allah touches you with a disease, none can remove it but He, and if He touches you with care, then He is Able to do all things.
People also used naturally occurring small pox scabs to protect themselves from smallpox with some dying after...your point doesn't stand. Apparently according to you, everyone should've just died of small pox rather than do anything about it because doing anything other than waiting for a miraculous healing is an unforgivable sin.
Which means till the end of the world, it is substandard.
God is Well Aware, Wise.
Knowledge during our lives is evolving (for most people) which is a fact of life. This is how we learn. You want to call that substandard go ahead. Just don't proclaim that going to a doctor is an unforgivable sin which as justamuslim pointed out, is forbidding what God did NOT forbid. You have no verse that says so...applying liberal doses of literal extremism to verses does not cut it.You have called doctors shaitaans, evil. You have a lot against doctors.
I'm just surprised at the black and white picture being painted to such an extent. It reminds me of certain people talking about walking to places rather than flying because if God had wanted man to fly, He'd have given them wings. Which is all well and good really, whatever floats their boat...at least they don't stand around on a pulpit calling down hellfire on airplanes, pilots, cabin crew and the people who fly in the death birds. -
Peace Savage-Carrot
I'm neutral in this thread and medical is not my field, but as moderator you may also as neutral as you can, so the members in this forum can feel comfartable.
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People also used naturally occurring small pox scabs to protect themselves from smallpox with some dying after...your point doesn't stand. Apparently according to you, everyone should've just died of small pox rather than do anything about it because doing anything other than waiting for a miraculous healing is an unforgivable sin. O
Knowledge during our lives is evolving (for most people) which is a fact of life. This is how we learn. You want to call that substandard go ahead. Just don't proclaim that going to a doctor is an unforgivable sin which as justamuslim pointed out, is forbidding what God did NOT forbid. You have no verse that says so...applying liberal doses of literal extremism to verses does not cut it.
I'm just surprised at the black and white picture being painted to such an extent. It reminds me of certain people talking about walking to places rather than flying because if God had wanted man to fly, He'd have given them wings. Which is all well and good really, whatever floats their boat...at least they don't stand around on a pulpit calling down hellfire on airplanes, pilots, cabin crew and the people who fly in the death birds.Please read and naswer the previous post #106
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Peace Savage-Carrot
I'm neutral in this thread and medical is not my field, but as moderator you may also as neutral as you can, so the members in this forum can feel comfartable.
I'm not moderating this thread, I'm participating in it.
Please read and naswer the previous post #106
What has this got to do with going to a doctor being an unforgivable sin according to you? Where does it say that? If you want to discuss 'vaccination scams', we can start a new thread.
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Aoa Nadia & justamuslim
You must have a patient of a saint (no pun intended). Debating with someone for almost 12 pages when they won't answer a simple question regarding Down's syndrome. Then I suppose modern medicine has not found a cure for someone who is full six short of half a dozen.
Regards -
Ws SL,
I'm just a newbie, it's justamuslim that's probably chucked her pc out the window by now. Or phone.
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God says that going to a doctor is a grave sin?
Yes. When Allah says He would not forgive associating the doctors with Him when He is the Curer and none but He is, as Curer unto you.
Is it not a grave sin, then? It is. Where do you differ?
I am sure being that you truly follow God Alone and have read the Koran, you know the consequences of attributing things to God. And also making false accusations without evidence.
Where is the question of false accusation when you are questioning how it is possible to cure life threatening diseases without application of human medical knowledge? Is it not true? Don't you question God's ability to heal, cure, or eradicate any affliction? If you say you had not questioned say so, and my apologies to you in advance.
Again how am I full of hate towards God? Because I don't hold your hatred towards doctors and buy your baseless, false claims that means I hate God and have full of hate towards God alone? Is this what you are saying?
How many times do i need to tell you, you hatred os towards God Alone against God Also. Don't you understand the difference in the meanings between GOD ALSO and GOD ALONE? If you really don't, tell me. I apologise for having started a debate with you.
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MM IS THE REASON BEHIND DS
Justamuslim
Your post #78 with topic "About medication" that constituted 25 paragraphs. I wanted to give you detailed answer to you to each and every paragraph so that you would know the drugs and the doctors who prescribed MM drugs are the sole reasons for DS and I started this in my post # 85. But then in your next post, you side tracked again to God Hate, God Alone, and God Also subject. Then joined savage carrot messing up all discussion and you stayed as a silent spectator.
Now it is between you and me to deal with the subject Down Syndrome caused by the doctors alone. Until our exchanges of opinions are over, I will ignore savage carrot completely.
For your comfort I cut and paste here the answer #85 I started for your post #78.
MM is the sole Cause for Down Syndrome
Justamuslim, you wrote
Every medication has side effects - some fatal, life threatening, causing permanent harm. in the United States, when you pick up medication from the pharmacy, they give you a list of potential side effects for that medication.Sister, I hope we will both not get offended or feel other than peace. Allah would deliver us from our inconsistencies.
Since you are a medico first I would like to hear from you the basic, general and fundamental scientific reason or through common sense as to the cause of adverse effects for any single medicine. I am sure you should be able to say from scientific angle. If you fail to say then I will choose to answer you from both scientific angle and through common sense. Our discussion should enlighten so many who follow our exchange of views. If the side effects are life threatening, fatal causing permanent harm, then for the others it could be a slow poison, crippling him slowly and steadily; and in some with intermittent aggravated response. You will call it hypersensitivity reaction. On the one hand it is massive, immediate, rapid and instant killing organs or the person as a whole suddenly, or cripple him slowly with delayed hypersensitivity. The list of adverse effects given by the pharma people is all fraudulent, concealing most side effects lest it would alarm the patients. So let us enter the subject.
I will go through your entire post 25 paragraphs, One by one. By Allah you will find my answers subtle and agreeable. Before I proceed, I will wait for your answer.
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For you the same is the answer I had posted to justamuslim previous to this.
Okay.
Yes. When Allah says He would not forgive associating the doctors with Him when He is the Curer and none but He is, as Curer unto you.
Is it not a grave sin, then? It is. Where do you differ?
This is why I said previously
How does God touch you anyways? Is it all magic Can God cure through a doctor? Is it all magic or does He or can He use other sources to do so? The answer is obvious.
Can God cure someone based on the actions the person took i.e. going to a doctor and learning how to deal with his issue? Of course He can. Is there a possibility the patient would die regardless, of course there is. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't take all the help they can get and keep themselves informed so that they can make the right calls at whatever moment they need to make it. There is a process to everything. No one here is saying a patient believes the doctor is a god that cured someone and God had nothing to do with it, except you. This way of thinking is extreme and quite dangerous.Case in point I had a post natal infection which was serious to the point of a steadily increasing fever over a period of 5 days to a 106 when they took my temp at the hospital. The process involved meant I received antibiotics to deal with the infection, medicine to bring down the fever which could've done lasting damage had it continued etc etc. If I had followed your guidelines for how to deal with a fever which was to accept my impending death in a prone position and lift nary a finger to help myself, I wouldn't be posting right now. Could I have been cured miraculously? A possibility which may have crossed some people's minds as they lay there. Didn't really cross mine since I was too busy dying. Exceptions exist, but to say the exceptions are the rule and God decided it was time to die for the rest when they could've been saved and make no mistake, they definitely can be saved through certain processes...is a very dangerous thing to advise. To call it an unforgivable sin is beyond the pale.
Where is the question of false accusation when you are questioning how it is possible to cure life threatening diseases without application of human medical knowledge? Is it not true? Don't you question God's ability to heal, cure, or eradicate any affliction? If you say you had not questioned say so, and my apologies to you in advance.
No one can argue that there are things we know of now of processes and how they occur that we didn't previously. There is too much evidence for anyone to sanely argue that medical knowledge/advances are all a crock of bull. To say we don't need any of that because it's an unforgivable sin, we'll just rely on our wet cloths and comfy beds to cure stuff is extreme.I can't imagine those who'd believe this and keep their kids or themselves at home when they have a raging fever and not get medical attention. I would advise against this, though it's ultimately one's own choice.
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Can God cure someone based on the actions the person took i.e. going to a doctor and learning how to deal with his issue? Of course He can.
A person by inspiration feels he should be rid of his uneasiness even while the affliction is in the destructive power form i.e., as the disease force starts building up causing first distinct energy disturbance that reflects in his mental equilibrium. As a result, off and on he becomes mentally tired, non comprehensive, cloudy and irritable with very short lucid intervals. The entire human race from birth to death is in some sort of mind level disturbance. This goes on for a long long period, disease force growing ever stronger, with shortening of lucid intervals, finally causing structural damage to the cells and tissues and organs of the body. This structural affection is the onset of pathology i.e. physical stabilisation of the diseases. The MM system cannot understand the disease force but only after when the disease force have gained enough strength beyond cure with destruction of organs and organelles. Unless the mind level affection of the pathogenic force and cloudiness is removed there is no cure to diseases because, MM does not know anything about this. If God is the ultimate power, then believe in the highest form of power as it guides you through inspiration by the leave of Allah. If you ignore this guidance, the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
Allah only sees in you if you take Him as Helper and Protector or not? If you obey and turn to Him, He would not only protect and cure him of his diseases but also teaches Him of His Wisdom to cure Him. Otherwise MM will take us to the D Day.
Is there a possibility the patient would die regardless, of course there is. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't take all the help they can get and keep themselves informed so that they can make the right calls at whatever moment they need to make it. There is a process to everything. No one here is saying a patient believes the doctor is a god that cured someone and God had nothing to do with it, except you. This way of thinking is extreme and quite dangerous.
Case in point I had a post natal infection which was serious to the point of a steadily increasing fever over a period of 5 days to a 106 when they took my temp at the hospital. The process involved meant I received antibiotics to deal with the infection, medicine to bring down the fever which could've done lasting damage had it continued etc etc. If I had followed your guidelines for how to deal with a fever which was to accept my impending death in a prone position and lift nary a finger to help myself, I wouldn't be posting right now. Could I have been cured miraculously? A possibility which may have crossed some people's minds as they lay there. Didn't really cross mine since I was too busy dying. Exceptions exist, but to say the exceptions are the rule and God decided it was time to die for the rest when they could've been saved and make no mistake, they definitely can be saved through certain processes...is a very dangerous thing to advise. To call it an unforgivable sin is beyond the pale.
No one can argue that there are things we know of now of processes and how they occur that we didn't previously. There is too much evidence for anyone to sanely argue that medical knowledge/advances are all a crock of bull. To say we don't need any of that because it's an unforgivable sin, we'll just rely on our wet cloths and comfy beds to cure stuff is extreme.I can't imagine those who'd believe this and keep their kids or themselves at home when they have a raging fever and not get medical attention. I would advise against this, though it's ultimately one's own choice.
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Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
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A person by inspiration feels he should be rid of his uneasiness even while the affliction is in the destructive power form i.e., as the disease force starts building up causing first distinct energy disturbance that reflects in his mental equilibrium. As a result, off and on he becomes mentally tired, non comprehensive, cloudy and irritable with very short lucid intervals. The entire human race from birth to death is in some sort of mind level disturbance. This goes on for a long long period, disease force growing ever stronger, with shortening of lucid intervals, finally causing structural damage to the cells and tissues and organs of the body. This structural affection is the onset of pathology i.e. physical stabilisation of the diseases. The MM system cannot understand the disease force but only after when the disease force have gained enough strength beyond cure with destruction of organs and organelles. Unless the mind level affection of the pathogenic force and cloudiness is removed there is no cure to diseases because, MM does not know anything about this. If God is the ultimate power, then believe in the highest form of power as it guides you through inspiration by the leave of Allah. If you ignore this guidance, the MM will have no option but surgical removal of the ailing organ and organs one after another, until finally you become a shell of bones and skin. See the direction of learning skills of the MM? Not at all in curing and making the organs to bounce back to life.
Allah only sees in you if you take Him as Helper and Protector or not? If you obey and turn to Him, He would not only protect and cure him of his diseases but also teaches Him of His Wisdom to cure Him. Otherwise MM will take us to the D Day.
Pretty sure they didn't remove my uterus when they treated me since I had kids after that. But well done on not responding to anything in my previous post. What is MM anyways...modern medicine? Modern man? Modem Mangled?
Seems like I need to add Poll in this post. hmm Ideally, I would vote for justamuslim and savage_carrot. bravo
Personally, I do try to avoid some of the medicines (sleeping pills, distress pills etc..) but will not agree that whole modern medicines are work of evil. In fact like I said before, I believe that the diseases and sickness are work of evil and discovery of medicines is blessing of God. Story narrated by justamuslim regarding a man in flood is absolutely bang on in this topic. God does not want us to sit back and say "God is our protector and he will look after us". A BIG NO. It is same like we stop EATING and say God will look after us. God has set up system for everything and we have to attempt and follow the system. Not doing any attempt will be against God.
Peace
Agreed, and one should def try to avoid taking anything that is needlessly useless, seen some get hooked on common painkillers even. Though I won't say no to an anti-nausea pill when my dad drives us anywhere. Saves paying for cleaning the inside of the car.