What is God's role with Born Disabled?
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Peace justamuslim
I didn't actually say I was supporting Drfazl as an 'underdog' (that might not be the best choice of word, like I've said to stilllearning I'm not sure what the word is in this scenario) - I meant that the way we are looking at how drfazl presents a strong argument in favour of point x, could be similar/seen in a simialr way by other people when we present a strong argument in favour of God or the Quran.
I understand that drfazl is talking about health - but from other people's opinions what we say can still be highly contentious because they will say in the wrong hands the Quran is a 'warriors manual' etc.
The point about homosexuality - is about the way someone passionately goes for a strong stance on a particular argument related to homosexuality. In these cases, anyone who disagrees with a X or Y opinion, it can be viewed in a similar way to the way drfazl strongly agrees with his opinion.
And the point about pro-Quran - lets face it, our beliefs can be considered very contentious - from an outsider perspective - verses on fighting, verses on disbelievers that can be taken without caution and more with hostility for anyone non-Muslim etc. Yes, we would say that's wrong, but some will say look at all those who have apparently 'acted upon' the Quran or take such hostility. I think they are ignoring the nature of humanity, but I am referring to their outsider perspective.
I did not say that what drfazl is doing is like an atheist asking about Jonah and the whale. It appears you have missed my point. My point is that other people could take our approach to trusting in God, believing what they might call 'ludicrous' or simply wrong in terms of the Jonah and the whale story in the same way some people receive drfazl's MAIN argument. Not his personality, not his asides but his MAIN argument. That's what I'm getting at.
My point is fairly subtle - I hope I have explained that more clearly.
What I'm getting at - is that strongly supporting one opinion happens in many discussions with many topics and that the same attitude some may have o drfazl, others could easily have of us because of our position on Islam etc.
I haven't read his other posts on here no - and I disagree with him when he says that but look at what you just said
"a doctor is committing a sin and it is unforgivable and so on."
that's what I'm getting at - other people would look at us saying Dying in a state of shirk, where one rejected the Oneness of God, is unforgivable. And they can easily have a similar view of us. I know the topic is different, but the sentiment is not hugely different...
This goes back to the point I made just above. And it also refers to outsider and insider perspective as well. Actually, I think it's an interesting way of looking at it.
I'm not sure drfazl is responsible for someone else's decision to avoid seeking medical attention. However, I do disagree with that and yes it can be an issue but surely the thing to do is to encourage drfazl to put disclaimers with what he says or something similar. I can read many things about dangerous herbs or medicine you can use, if I use them it still makes me responsible unless someone in a profession, with the authority to do so, told me that I had to use it according to their professional opinion for my situation. Even then you can refuse although the person may be responsible.
Also I think people should be presenting a counter argument, it's the way I saw it unfolding me that prompted me to make that post. You also just said that each of us is responsible for our actions - exactly, so the people who choose to follow drfazl based on what they've seen here are responsible. drfazl is responsible for giving out bad information in terms of answering God, if thats the case, but not necessarily someone elses actions.
Peace stillearning,
Thank you, but no, I am not supporting his opinion/evidence/belief. underdog may have been an inappropriate word. I'm not sure what the word is in this situation but I am not cheering drfazl on in his opinions. In fact, my whole argument is that there are different ways of looking at this discussion and discussing it and so I don't think its so startling that someone has radical views on something like this given the amount of contentious views that people would accuse us of having because we believe in the Quran.
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Maybe its the way that Drfazl has presented his beliefs/evidence/opinions that has caused the response to him - some people think its extreme or harsh. But - I've seen others present opinions in a harsh way either being pro or anti homosexuality, or even just being pro-Quran - there can be people who say to us why can't you accept all religions, why just one? Then we could all live more peacefully if we all accepted the validity of each others religions... apparently. To them we may seem extreme, because we want to establish the validity of solely one way. (Although we recognise that other religions have some elements of truth here and there.)
Apples and oranges really. If someone says going to a doctor is committing an unforgivable sin according to God while insisting his methods are the best cures for various illnesses also in accordance with God which involves nothing more than lying in a bed and waiting for the inevitable... is firstly patently wrong as there is no such verse in the quran, one would have to take verses out of context and then push them to the fullest extent of literal extremism while taking huge liberties with the interpretation...in a nutshell basically someone saying Allah is a moon god the quran says so. Secondly, it is irresponsible and dangerous.And the thing is the way some people are saying drfazl can't give explanations for certain topics and then things just starting to get more antagonistic in terms of the style of the discussion - and some may disagree, but lets face it there are different styles of discussion and as human beings we can tell the difference instantly. Hence, that's the reason I choose to stay out of certain types of discussion.
The discussion style here is ignoring what a person writes and claiming to respond by a wall of text (sometimes just some random conspiracy article off the internet claiming that should explain everything) that continues marching blithely forward obliviously. This is not a different style of discussion. It isn't a discussion. Some people might have just let him do that on the privacy of his own threads had this not involved misinformation of a very basic type, namely attributing something to God with no evidence as of yet and advising people to lie still and hope for the best in cases of illnesses.Or there is also a bit of mockery - what about atheists when they ask about Jonah and the whale in the Quran? And we might say well we don't know the entire story or the possibilities, we trust God. What drfazl is doing is somewhat similar.
Apples and oranges again. Knowledge is given to us for a reason, for us to use it within reason. There are things we don't know, can't know or will not know. Does this mean we can never know anything? Drfazl is contesting all medical knowledge/advances; calls it sinful and evil and can't defend it. Who can?
And atheists would also say to us we repeated the same questions but they give the same apparently 'unfulfilling' response, even though it is a response from our beliefs, but it is not the one they want. I'm just saying, there are different ways of looking at this.
No, really there isn't a different way of looking at this, it involves facts that have bucketloads of evidence behind them. God created life, God created our minds to comprehend life; to see His signs and to know them. In the horizons and in ourselves, covering external and internal. Denying basic scientific facts isn't something we can do. We don't sit around and say the sun revolves around the earth when we know it to be the opposite.I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. I agree with trust in God but I believe God gives us different methods for healing although there is an industry that people should be aware of. But I just felt like I wanted to add that, to help (if it does help) the 'underdog'.
Sure there are different methods for healing, the key word being method which involves a process...not sure if doing nothing is a process and by extension, a method. -
Peace,
Well, I agree with the background to drfazl's ideas, that we should praise God that a treatment worked, because without God no medication would work. It is true that a placebo can have the same effect as the real drug, because of the faith that you actually had this drug administered and that it will heal you. So to simply believe you will become better by something has its effect on the illness.
I find that many times prayers to God and that the body can heal itself is better than to consume drugs with possible harmful side-effects. Most drugs have harmful side-effects even if the symptoms are not induced, it may leave permanent damage. It may not be noticeable, but you could only see them if you could feel the difference both with or without taking it.
Yet I would not call doctors or other medical staff for workers of evil. I think there should always be an alternative and often it is better to go in to the doctor if you break a leg or get some acute viral/bacterial infection. We should only know that it is God who makes the treatment the doctors perform on us work or not. They just give something out of experience and it works on us, although sometimes it does not.
However, God added all these substances for a reason on our game field. We must draw some line somewhere, if we are talking about restricting substances to our disposal then we should stop drinking coffee or other drinks, maybe even sugar, because also have effects similar to drugs. And we should stop using toothpaste as this is kind of medicine.
But back to drfazl's points; we should try to avoid medications when we can and not get into a evil spiral where we use pills for every problem we have in life. We should first of all get the root of our problem instead of countering the superficial symptoms, ie headache or another issue. Many of the problems can be solved by a change in lifestyle.
Many psychological disorders can be cured without medication, but lots of drugs are prescribed anyway. However, when it comes to this type of drugs they are usually causing a lot of side-effects and if they can be avoided I think this is better.
I think when it comes to the topic you/we discuss we need to keep a healthy balance. And we need to remember that without God these drugs would do nothing. And with a positive attitude they will have an even stronger effect. Sometimes you can simply give a sugar pill and the outcome would be the same as the real stuff.
I think you treat brother Fazl a bit unfairly harsh. Well, I am not sure if he has offended you at some point. We should remember that we are (hopefully) muslims and we need to discuss things in a fairly peaceful and civilized manner.
Apart from calling doctors pawns of evil I am not sure what he has done wrong? Is he spreading misinformation you say? Well, I think much of what he says is true.
His lifestyle and if he has been fine for 15 years without healthcare and only through Faith healing I must say I am impressed. It may tell how much simple honest Faith in God can do for a human being.
Just hope he knows what he is doing in case he would be involved in a serious accident and would get badly wounded. Would he refuse treatment for doctors to patch him up, ie seal open wounds? Else he may as well die due to loss of blood.
I would not say healthcare is 'haraam' and incompatible with true Faith in God, but we should remember who really heals us. Also I think prayer healing can be a firsthand alternative and what we should do first of all. We should always keep in mind that without God these drugs may not have the intended effect, we are always in the hands of God's will. And like drfazl said, drugs can cause permanent damage and should be used wisely and only when needed.
God bless you
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Peace savage_carrot,
My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.
I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.
The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with him.
This point I've made isn't so important to me that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I've already said that in a post prior to the one you made as well. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then - I understand when certain things are unwelcome.
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Peace Man of Faith,
I really agree with what you have to say. I would have put the points across with similar words as well. Thanks for sharing that post with us.
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@manoffaith,
Re
I think you treat brother Fazl a bit unfairly harsh. Well, I am not sure if he has offended you at some point. We should remember that we are (hopefully) muslims and we need to discuss things in a fairly peaceful and civilized manner.
Apart from calling doctors pawns of evil I am not sure what he has done wrong? Is he spreading misinformation you say? Well, I think much of what he says is true.
Asking drfazl to back up his claims and asking him to provide evidence and support is not what I would consider being unfairly harsh. Do you consider holding a person accountable and responsible - harsh and unfair? In that case then God is most unjust and unfair!
And re
His lifestyle and if he has been fine for 15 years without healthcare and only through Faith healing I must say I am impressed. It may tell how much simple honest Faith in God can do for a human being.
I know atheists who have done fine a lot more than 15 years without seeking healthcare. So does this mean that not believing in God can do for a human being?
Also,I know many Christians who have been saved by Jesus. If we follow your reasoning to a conclusion then believing in Jesus and accepting Jesus in our lives will lead to salvation. It can do wonders. I know of many similar stories as the person who wrote of her experiences in this article
http//www.southasianconnection.com/articles/98/1/Encounter-with-Jesus-that-Changed-My-Life/Page1.htmlre
And like drfazl said, drugs can cause permanent damage and should be used wisely and only when needed.
There is nothing that drfazl has said that we don't know about or that your doctor won't tell you. What he has done is take some known facts or some knowledge and then basically what he has done is mix truth with falsehood. He has taken verses from the Koran (Gods words) to give support to his views.
Drfazl here has not only called doctors evil and going to a doctor is a sin, he alleged that I am full of hate towards God alone and also hate God. You don't find anything wrong with that? And also he has claimed that doctors are responsible for chromosomal conditions like Down syndrome and all disabilities are due to doctors. In another thread, he said that ovaries are an empty sac till age of 12 and that you don't need males and other such thing. You can read for yourself. You don't find his claims and statements to be misinformation???
Manoffaith, you speak so harshly about hadiths holding the kind of views that you have when there are many things contained in the volumes of Bukhari that may very well be what Muhammed said and clearly do not contradict the Koran and are in a sense virtuous and yet you seem quite supportive of drfazl coming to his defense (so it seems) and also referring to him in your own thread which you started and which I am awaiting to read. Why don't you reference hadiths that some of which are very much true?
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Peace oneandonly,justamuslim, savage carrot, stillearning, supportpeacenotwar, Man of Faith
Given the global scenario on health care, all systems put together from your own experience
can you say in a single word say say whether it is
IMPROVING OR DETIORATING
If you agree that it is IMPROVING then finally our wretched end would be in the Lofty
INTENSIVE CARE UNIT at the behest of specialised (doctors) saviours who
would ask you to TRUST upon the ONLY SAVIOUR, in the fag end but in vain.
If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say
his views for betterment of man kind to follow.
Regards
Balachandran
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Peace savage_carrot,
My point is not about whether drfazl is correct or incorrect. I'm not saying it's in the Quran. If he is saying we cannot take any type of medical treatment, then I disagree. I am saying other people's perspective of us, because we can easily be considered contentious when we are exclusively promulgating Islam etc, that they can view us in the same way as we view drfazl 'one way' approach. It isn't so strange to understand that. Some ex-Muslims have a very bad opinion of Islam and the Quran because of the supposed dangers of it that they have seen witnessed, such as beating wives when mistranslations have occured (I think its part of a test in the Quran, but that's another story that there is not point in sharing here) - I know because some tell me about it.
Yes that is what he's saying amongst other things. Dr Fazl's 'one way' approach includes two things, firstly, saying the quran says so and so when it doesn't, and secondly contesting all medical knowledge as being wrong and sinful to accept. When you say what drfazl is doing is somewhat similar to atheists etc is not similar because this isn't an opinion discussion as such. It involves facts which means that he needs to tell us where the reference to what he's claiming exists in the quran ,and the second part which is to give evidence for his anti medical claims.I've addressed some of those points already, and your points are as though I agree with drfazl. As though I have to agree with drfazl in order to say what I did in my post. That is so much like those non-Muslims who get accused of being Muslim when they defend Muslims against the far right.
I don't really know what you agreed with in the post I responded to other than the last part where you said I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. And then explained the trust in God bit. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense.The final point you made I never even meant that what drfazl was saying was a method at all... that was in fact the exact opposite of what I meant. That I believe there are ACTUAL methods for healing at times that we can use, so in that case I think (I'm not entirely sure) that's where I disagree with drfazl.
And I was saying drfazl has no method. Wasn't saying that you said he had a method, was bringing it back to him is all.This point I've made isn't so important that I need to go on elaborating it. But the simple fact is, I am not agreeing with drfazl, I am holding a mirror up to this situation and making points about how OTHER PEOPLE can view pro-Quran etc compared to HOW WE view some people. I am sorry if you don't like that. They may also be quite subtle points, I understand that. Maybe I should refrain from posting such things in this thread then.
If someone makes the claims drfazl makes, it is not like the subtle points you are raising. As in, i don't think this is a similar situation as I've explained. That is my opinion, you can disagree of course. Sorry if I don't like your subtle points? It's got nothing to do with like or dislike, I just don't see the relevance to the drfazl situation. If you think/feel you should clarify further, please go ahead. I'm not sure what to say to the last bit, other than I don't mind the posts/contributions? -
If you agree that it is DETEORATING then putting aside the petty issues allow Dr.Fazl to say
his views for betterment of man kind to follow.
If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?
I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.
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If I understand you correctly, what drfazl has to say and if we are to listen to his views, it will lead to betterment of man kind to follow?
I just want to be sure that I am understanding you right.
Yes If GOD ALONE WILL one would be able to understand
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Peace justamuslim,
I am supporting drfazl's alleged and apparent Faith in God. I am not all out supporting his ideas about healthcare as I thought you would have understood by reading my previous post.
I have not found much to gain from reading hadith, I have looked through some of it, but I deemed it a waste of time reading after some hundred pages. Even if a tiny portion might be true, the risk of trusting the information is not worth it in my opinion. There are better "hadith" than the hadith of Muhammad. And I am not interested in how many stones Muhammad used to wipe his ass when he answered the "call of nature". About a chapter or so just about observations on how the prophet performed his toilet needs.
Why are you telling me to refer to hadith? A rhetorical question I suppose.
And yes, I mentioned drfazl in my thread. Some of his information is worth reading. The background of his ideas is not bad, even if he seems to go to one extreme with it.
I am not sure about his 15 years of Faith healing and if it is just pure luck, but I still commend him for relying so much on Faith. Like I mentioned in my previous post and if he got serious injuries you may see that I believe he needs hospital care or die in case of an accident.
Surely you must see that I am not trying to talk against drugs ultimate use, only saying that we may consider reduction of its usage. Do not tell me your blunt style has caused you to become blind of what it being written or not here.
God bless you
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Peace justamuslim,
I am supporting drfazl's alleged and apparent Faith in God. I am not all out supporting his ideas about healthcare as I thought you would have understood by reading my previous post.
I am not sure about his 15 years of Faith healing and if it is just pure luck, but I still commend him for relying so much on Faith. Like I mentioned in my previous post and if he got serious injuries you may see that I believe he needs hospital care or die in case of an accident.
Peace to Justamuslim, Oneandonly, Man of Faith and to All.
I would like to share my experience with regard to believe GOD ALONE for my health care not only for me, but for my wife, son and two daughters.
By GOD's Grace I came in contact with Dr.Fazlur Rahman 15 years ago for my long list of ailments of 30 years since childhood and got cured , since then Iam having anew lease of LIFE .
My son was born in a Hospital before believing in GOD ALONE , and thereafter my two daughters were born at home without the help of any sort of medical system, leave alone Modern Medicine. Till date for any sort of ailment we turn towards GOD as HEALER by seeking forgiveness and patience .
We all would accept that GOOD intentions and deeds would bring as GOODS. But we find difficult in accepting the TRUTH that any hardships such as ailments, accident, socio-economic problems etc., are earned through our bad intentions and deeds. By GOD's Grace accepting this TRUTH gives us patience during the testing period, and this belief in HIS Prowess is growing day in and day out for the past 10 years in my family.
One more example for people who are jittery about accident and bone fracture. My close aide who fell flat from a height of 10 feet suffered fractured spine in the abdomen area. Initially he was admitted in a hospital, and the doctors suggested for surgery. He came across a fellow patient who was crippled after surgery , and by GOD's Grace understood that the treatment by any human system is not wholesome but half baked.
Thereafter in consultation with Dr.Fazlur Rahman resorted to faith healing over phone, and his consoling words helped to tide over difficult times and strengthened his belief in GOD as HEALER. He was only able to move in a sitting position with hunch backed. After two months , one night during high fever his back straightened up, to a great relief and realised as newly born. Since then seven years have passed and he feels even more healthy and their family members too started believing in GOD ALONE as HEALER.
Kindly note that Iam just one among the thousands who have benefited cure from all sort of ailments which are not humanly possible.
Presently this could be difficult for many to comprehend, do not NEGATE , rather feel how nice it would be a community without any ailments , trust in GOD and he is sufficient for us.
balachandran.
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Yes that is what he's saying amongst other things. Dr Fazl's 'one way' approach includes two things, firstly, saying the quran says so and so when it doesn't, and secondly contesting all medical knowledge as being wrong and sinful to accept. When you say what drfazl is doing is somewhat similar to atheists etc is not similar because this isn't an opinion discussion as such. It involves facts which means that he needs to tell us where the reference to what he's claiming exists in the quran ,and the second part which is to give evidence for his anti medical claims.
I don't really know what you agreed with in the post I responded to other than the last part where you said I haven't read too much of what drfazl says to know how much I agree with him. And then explained the trust in God bit. I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense.
And I was saying drfazl has no method. Wasn't saying that you said he had a method, was bringing it back to him is all.
If someone makes the claims drfazl makes, it is not like the subtle points you are raising. As in, i don't think this is a similar situation as I've explained. That is my opinion, you can disagree of course. Sorry if I don't like your subtle points? It's got nothing to do with like or dislike, I just don't see the relevance to the drfazl situation. If you think/feel you should clarify further, please go ahead. I'm not sure what to say to the last bit, other than I don't mind the posts/contributions?Peace savage_carrot,
Really, there is no need I think, for us to drag this out any longer. What I will say is that I am not comparing drfazl with atheists at all. I've already clarified this. This is what I have been saying
"I did not say that what drfazl is doing is like an atheist asking about Jonah and the whale. It appears you have missed my point. My point is that other people could take our approach to trusting in God, believing what they might call 'ludicrous' or simply wrong in terms of the Jonah and the whale story in the same way some people receive drfazl's MAIN argument. Not his personality, not his asides but his MAIN argument. That's what I'm getting at."
I was comparing how drfazl's point is being treated as contentious because of the nature of his claims, in comparison to how others such as some atheists, ex-Muslims may treat some Muslims because of their claims about the Quran. I have explained this in two to three posts now. I am not going to explain it again, since there is no need to like I said.
"I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense."
I don't know what you mean by that, and really, it doesn't matter, like I said, there is no need to continue this discussion. It was one way of considering the situation that has arisen.
In terms of the points about methods and that drfazl is talking about using no methods - I will just leave.
And the subtle point I am raising is about the situation here with drfazl and then the way atheists or other groups may view Muslim claims. It is not about whether the sutble points I make are like drfazls claims about healthcare.
Right now - I am really not enjoying (aspects of) this forum at all (there are some great people here but on the whole, I'm not getting finding much that is that constructive for myself personally, I know you might disagree but that's my opinion no need to get into a discussion about it. And I know it seems like I've been mentioning this a bit here and there - but it isn't just the most heated debates I am talking about. It's more than that.), so there are things I want to say that I will refrain from and that I was alluding to in my last post. But I do think this forum itself exemplifies some of the lessons in the Quran, which is helpful in its own way. This really is about my views on this matter, most might not agree but I'm not about getting people to agree with me either.
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Peace all
There is an old saying that we all should ponder on
"When the superior person deals with the world, he is not for or against anything?he just follows what is right."
I believe that there are truths in both modern medicine and in natural/alternative medicine. When it comes to health, we should use what works and discard what doesn't work. Having said that, I think that natural approaches to health are far more superior than artificial approaches to health when it comes to curing diseases.
"Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food?
"The natural healing force within each of us is the greatest force in getting well."
"For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are"
"The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice."
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Peace Mario,
Thank you for sharing those quotes - well put as well, I also favour natural approaches.
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Peace Mario,
Thank you for sharing those quotes - well put as well, I also favour natural approaches.
Your welcome )
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Your welcome
Peace Mario,
Ok that's a little cheeky - you added the part about fools after I said well put... hehe. That's the only bit I don't agree with because some people may have a really good intention, especially to God swt, to go solely alternative or faith based. Apart from that, I loved what you said.
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Peace Mario,
Ok that's a little cheeky - you added the part about fools after I said well put... hehe. That's the only bit I don't agree with because some people may have a really good intention, especially to God swt, to go solely alternative or faith based. Apart from that, I loved what you said. )
You are right.
The part about fools have been removed )
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Manoffaith,
I brought up hadith to convey my point. Some of the hadiths are worth reading and they are good. I am sure you don't disagree with all the hadiths especially the ones that support the Koran or speak of the truths but you won't refer to bukhari in your threads - will you? And so, I am just taken back by your reference to drfazl. Clearly you have issues with hadith followers or anyone for that matter attributing things to God and yet are in support of drfazl. Sorry, but I just don't get that.
I read yours posts and you have read mine about medications as we are more or less on the same page. I get that but i don't believe you are seeing the entire picture or well from the angle that I see or getting my point.
I ask that you please step back and see things for what they are and what drfazl is saying. Drfazl is on a crusade. His position is if you don't believe sharing his views then you are basically sinners. He has made blaring farfetched baseless statements and claims with interweaving some truths. For someone who professes to truly believe in God alone, he is good at not speaking his truths clearly and simply. Have you read his responses to questions asked by me and others? His reaction when questioned pointing out his fallacies and untruths is to put me down, calling names, saying that I am full of hate towards God alone and also that I hate God which he later admitted was wrong.
You know, one thing I learned over the years and from God is how good and evil work. Evil works best in the cloak of disguise appearing very pious, humble, meek and God fearing, playing with human characteristics (from arrogance to humbleness), mixing truths with falsehood, using the same very concepts of God to lead people astray.
Satan will say the same things as God that if you don't listen to him then you are lost and will be lead astray. Often satan uses fear to recruit susceptible individuals in particular believers who fear displeasing God. Satan is most clever and very good at what he does appealing to our intelligence, our emotions, our vulnerabilities, our strengths....never resting, never stops plotting. He is most skillful with words and manipulation. And when he is exposed, called out holding him accountable, he appears to be the victim projecting his behavior onto you accusing you of being harsh, critical, confrontational, of attacking him and appealing to sympathizers to come to his defense. Satan works through people just as God does. We are not even aware that we have fallen prey to satan thinking we are on the right track till we gain wisdom and Wisdom.
Anyhow, I ask that you read newmoons post - how he found comfort in drfazl's words and was lead to God alone. Although drfazl is using the words of God and core concepts, what really is drfazl saying?
it may sound similar but i beg to differ as this is NOT similar to having a discourse with hadith followers or having disagreement over ideology or philosophy or disagreeing over homosexuality being a sin or over salat, ablution, etc.
Drfazl has his views that doctors are shaitaans and if you seek medical care then you are committing an unforgivable sin which he has used the words of God to back up his claims and he has gone on a tirade over health care system and opened up posts on achieving peace.
Manoffaith, this is not just having extreme views. Ok what will someone who has never heard of God Alone think listening to drfazl whose alleged faith in God you say you support? So those who truly worship God alone do not seek medical care? Per Drfazl, I am a "God also" believer. Actually i am evil. Is this what you want people to understand about those who follow Koran only? I agree with you in what you said in your post that we really should ponder on what it means to a believer.
I am blunt but no, i wouldn't say that i am blind to what i see or shall i say what i read.
Anyhow, it is God who teaches us in the Koran how to achieve peace. Islam is really a very simple concept. Nothing complicated.
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Just want to add.... I am sure some years ago, someone said that we should all obey prophet Muhammed and follow him as that is what is said in the Koran (the origins of hadiths being born). I am sure someone in the crowd said, hey what you are doing is attributing things to prophet Muhammed which he never said and this is wrong asking for evidence and pointing out fallacies. I am sure those who stood up were silenced with fear and other means. And by sympathizers who although didn't agree with some things didn't really object supporting the faith and belief of hadith followers.
I am sure if I lived in those times, I would have very bluntly objected and I know all too well how I would have been received. Not much different than now.