What is God's role with Born Disabled?

savage_carrot

I am sure if I lived in those times, I would have very bluntly objected and I know all too well how I would have been received. Not much different than now.

We've all felt that way to some extent I think, some people argue over the stupidest things even when the evidence is right under their noses and even when they can see it. People argue even when it's got nothing to do with the subject. And all of us have our own reasons for doing so, some of which we can't see ourselves. It's crazy. Sometimes you're like what's the point, and sometimes those times are when there is a point.

Peace savage_carrot,

Really, there is no need I think, for us to drag this out any longer. What I will say is that I am not comparing drfazl with atheists at all. I've already clarified this. This is what I have been saying

"I did not say that what drfazl is doing is like an atheist asking about Jonah and the whale. It appears you have missed my point. My point is that other people could take our approach to trusting in God, believing what they might call 'ludicrous' or simply wrong in terms of the Jonah and the whale story in the same way some people receive drfazl's MAIN argument. Not his personality, not his asides but his MAIN argument. That's what I'm getting at."

I was comparing how drfazl's point is being treated as contentious because of the nature of his claims, in comparison to how others such as some atheists, ex-Muslims may treat some Muslims because of their claims about the Quran. I have explained this in two to three posts now. I am not going to explain it again, since there is no need to like I said.

"I'm pretty sure everyone would agree with that if that's all drfazl was saying. In fact I was pretty sure that you hadn't really read the other claims as is proven in your next post because it's really difficult to agree to something like that without putting forth something in it's defense."

I don't know what you mean by that, and really, it doesn't matter, like I said, there is no need to continue this discussion. It was one way of considering the situation that has arisen.

In terms of the points about methods and that drfazl is talking about using no methods - I will just leave.

And the subtle point I am raising is about the situation here with drfazl and then the way atheists or other groups may view Muslim claims. It is not about whether the sutble points I make are like drfazls claims about healthcare.

Right now - I am really not enjoying (aspects of) this forum at all (there are some great people here but on the whole, I'm not getting finding much that is that constructive for myself personally, I know you might disagree but that's my opinion no need to get into a discussion about it. And I know it seems like I've been mentioning this a bit here and there - but it isn't just the most heated debates I am talking about. It's more than that.), so there are things I want to say that I will refrain from and that I was alluding to in my last post. But I do think this forum itself exemplifies some of the lessons in the Quran, which is helpful in its own way. This really is about my views on this matter, most might not agree but I'm not about getting people to agree with me either.

I don't think you understand, you don't think I understand so yes, there's no point in continuing this. Sometimes we can't see how the content we put across is presented or taken which is fine especially when it's an opinion based discussion. I don't enjoy aspects of this forum and some types of interaction myself so you may be mistaken, I would agree.

wrkmmn

Peace

The healthcare system is an evil system, for the simple reason that whoever goes to them is not a patient, is a costumer. A costumer that is going to give them profits. the health care system is not worry about its costumers, but about the share holders in wall street and the ones around the world. the health care system is the biggest business there is, and is a profit driven business, and not a mercy/compassion driven business. Therefore, as most doctors are trained and brainwashed from the beginning of their education to be good producers for the profit driven healthcare system, then yes they are evil. Also, they are very stupid, God has made me see so many stupidities done by the doctors and dentist here in the healthcare system of Texas, that I have stopped trusting them.

You people are supposed to be Believer but most of you sound just like atheist unbelievers. Whenever a believer is sick, he is to be conscious that he could be facing death. And, What is the only thing a true believer is supposed to say when he sees death close?

2155And most certainly shall We try you by means125 of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of fruits. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity - (2156) who, when calamity befalls them, say, "Verily, unto God do we belong and, verily, unto Him we shall return." (2157) It is they upon whom their Sustainer's blessings andgrace are bestowed, and it is they, they who are on the right path!

I don't see the saying as "please, please, where is the closest doctor, and the best medicine"

savage_carrot

You people are supposed to be Believer but most of you sound just like atheist unbelievers. Whenever a believer is sick, he is to be conscious that he could be facing death. And, What is the only thing a true believer is supposed to say when he sees death close?

2155And most certainly shall We try you by means125 of danger, and hunger, and loss of worldly goods, of lives and of fruits. But give glad tidings unto those who are patient in adversity - (2156) who, when calamity befalls them, say, "Verily, unto God do we belong and, verily, unto Him we shall return." (2157) It is they upon whom their Sustainer's blessings andgrace are bestowed, and it is they, they who are on the right path!

I don't see the saying as "please, please, where is the closest doctor, and the best medicine"

Really? Another poster making disbeliever accusations if anyone talks about going to a doctor when they're sick? That's not extreme at all.

What would you people do really? Lie down and die while muttering to God we return, if you're even conscious and do nothing else even if you have the resources to because that would mean one is becoming a disbeliever? Seriously? It's completely off base to even a remotely objective reader but obviously not to those who belong to the Allah will save us, we shouldn't have to do anything camp.

Those who believe such should have to then also believe that God doesn't work through different means, didn't give us resources, didn't create knowledge built into the system, didn't ask us to use our minds, didn't ask us to help ourselves with any of it so on and so forth. If they don't, they're hypocrites. There are so many verses to support the above, so many signs everywhere that point to this with no ambiguity whatsoever, yet some persist.

The tendency to conflate different things and then only emphasising the negative aspects (probably because they've been burnt by it somehow), ignoring or denying the positive aspects is not the complete picture. It's lost it's balance and is skewed. Some people have a very high risk aversion tendency which then translates into their mindset. For example, they go to a doctor and he makes the wrong judgement call for whatever reason. The person then decides it's not worth the risk to go to any doctor because they all don't know shit. There must be something to support this? Let us read, hmm why yes there is something here that says put your trust in God. That's it! That would mean if I ever go a doctor again it would be going against the word of God. I would never be forgiven for such a sin either.

Now, this firstly is a bit ironic as the one who is so risk averse is not really putting his trust in God. He's afraid of doctors pretty much a lot...and all because it's not worth the risk of being burnt ever again. Secondly, this translates into equating doctors to gods. Might be because the trust they talk about having in a doctor is of a kind that involves just belief in that person and not much information. When someone thinks they have to believe someone else will bring about a positive outcome without much information of the processes involved and there is a negative outcome...they blame themselves for one part of it and not the other. If others don't believe that, it doesn't get through because in their minds they had already put them on a pedestal in a way and gotten a rude awakening which didn't fully wake them up in a sense. Just roused enough to see one part of it. We may do this every day with lots of people, forgetting that God is in full control. That He can work through anything.

Then comes the part where the person now needs validation of this, some go through life not really looking for validation but most do want it and is common to get it through scripture/religion if they claim to follow one, the ones that don't look for validation from other sources. Obviously the danger now is the mindset with which we've approached whatever source we are seeking validation from. We want it to conform by hook or by crook. And he manages to do that somehow, to make himself believe it.

During all this, the whole chain of events which make our experiences, we can point out where our mistakes have been if we were being objective about it. But we aren't. Important things have been forgotten, ignored, pushed back, denied or changed into something else. Everyone is at risk of this. The way to see is to unsee and so on. Is there a next part to this chain? Yeah, proselytizing. Which usually is at the end of it and not everyone does it but some do. Validation from source accepted in whatever way, now others need to accept it too.

This may stem from different reasons... suppressed guilt at having pushed away something, feeling better about our choices, social acceptance as being important, a feeling of superiority, a belief of holier than thou-ness etc etc. Some after having come to this point may now use this as a means to create a whole persona based on this, different from the herd. The chosen few. God's preferred warriors of the light, keeping the dark at bay. Anyone who disagrees is either blind, evil, servants of evil following evil, disbelieving atheists (which is odd but whatever), ignorant doofuses who're just doing what everyone foolishly does and know not what they speak of, hell fodder so on and so forth. And we've come a long way from whatever may have started the chain of events.

These are some of the few things I can think of to rationalise this sort of thinking. Anything else is not meant for polite society. At the end, once again, we can point out the good and the bad, we can point out the dangers of imbalance, we can talk about the ills of a system, we can talk about the benefits of something done right whatever. It all goes pear shaped when people start calling anyone who disagrees disbelievers while simultaneously reiterating their pov repeatedly, a pov that involves bashing and calling evil so many things altogether, not even a few aspects. Just shows there is not much rational sense to be had here.

Man_of_Faith

Salaam justamuslim,

Like I said in my previous post; I have not yet found the hadith to be all that valuable in my path to become a better muslim, but there may be one or another hadith passage which may be words of Wisdom/wisdom.

I am not against being inspired by words other than Quran, but it is dangerous business to proclaim and say that these words should be interpreted as the Law based on the ill-conceived idea that they are alleged sayings of a past Prophet. I have read through hundreds of pages of hadith, but so far none have appealed to me as more than everyday rational thinking for a blessed man.

Based on the amount of nonsense within the hadith collections I have determined that they have near junk status. I do not know if you have ever sat down and studied the hadith, but if not you should skim through a few chapters and have a look with your own eyes. Would you find it to make sense then you have a different logic engine than mine.

If I study something other than Quran it is mainly the Gospel testimonies in the New Testament. While they are also hadith I consider them to be more accurate and wise than what you find in Muhammad hadith by Bukhari and company. Every now and then I also take a look in the Old Testament, but I take it all with a careful grind of salt.

No, I will not use the alleged hadith/hearsay of Muhammad as any sort of reference in my posts. They have already driven so many millions of people crazy in the world so I do not sponsor them in any way at all. I do not wish to risk being wrong in front of God by giving reference to very suspicious information, which most I consider misinformation/disinformation.

I am not as easily "manipulated" by drfazl as you seem to believe. I have stood strong against dozens of attempts to have me believe in the weirdest religious ideas. And I do not share the most extreme elements of drfazl's ideas nor do I call doctors workers of evil.

If now drfazl spreads misinformation regarding drugs I cannot say I am an expert in pharmacology although I have some knowledge. I know drugs can have and have harmful permanent adverse effects which we sometimes ignore too much. But.. I am not saying we should not vaccinate ourselves against common diseases because we can contract them pretty easily when exposed to contaminated sources. Such is God's system, He created a working system which seems to include bacterias and viruses with harmful effects. Prayers help and if it is according to His will we can be cured, but getting afflicted by a disease can also be to test our intelligence. If there is a mixture of substances which God created that can heal you illness, why not use them? After all, God created them for a reason.

Like I said in my previous post; toothpaste and other fundamental things should also be called Satanic inventions then. No, I am moderate in my stance in the balance between spiritual healing and by the assistance of alchemy... or medicine as this old practice is renamed into in later centuries. Rest assured I am trying only to follow the best and ignore the rest.

And I wish we can have a friendly discussion, I am not calling you "justadisbeliever" or any other names previously mentioned. I just wish not that we should heat up the discussion any further. Although I can understand if those who have relatives with, for example, Downs Syndrome may be potentially offended by some of drfazl's utterances.

And those born with Downs Syndrome did not choose this fate themselves, so God is not causing them to suffer on behalf of their parents, and this is against the teachings of Quran. But humanity as a whole may have been causing a lot of borth defects due to various kinds of pollution and consumption of toxic substances, whether medical drugs or narcotic drugs such as cigarettes or alcohol etc.

After seeing some of drfazl's posts I can agree that he is a bit blunt in his behavior and he might have been understood better with an more relaxed and thorough strategy. He may also see if his ideas are not flawed somewhere. He has an extremely radical view of his topic.

Okay. Your idea is being blunt against those who are wrong or trying to (probably unintentionally) spread disinformation may be compared to the expression to "fight fire with fire". You may make him even more determined to continue his extremism.

I am sure drfazl as a person is a nice person, but his views have turned him quite radical.

Okay. I am slightly blunt in some threads when countering hadith propaganda, but I try to balance the attacks and focus on the blasphemy. I may be a bit obvious sarcastic to add an intended effect, just as I said to you about wiping the ass with stones from hadith.

But I am rough-tuning, I try to reach, let us say, Israfeel on a level and in some threads we have somewhat a giving dialog. And Sonny seems to have opened up a little lately. Everyone is free to browse through hadith and try to read it, but we should have a very, very critical approach to it. In fact, we should be critical in our approach even with Quran, when it comes to the interpretation, but we can (hopefully) trust that what we read there is the authentic hadith of God, uncorrupted. I would say it is dangerous to read Muhammad hadith and feel interest in its passages because it is an unreliable source of information.

To blindly take the hadith as a source of teachings is foolish and even if some things may be wise, understanding has become better since the 9th century and modern ways may be better than this knowledge from the Dark Ages.

True that the Quran is a source of Guidance, but it does nothing without God. And God is not restricted to His Boook, we can be well guided without it. As long as the utterances are along the guidelines of the Quran then wise words can be an adequate source of Wisdom and Knowledge. Some people, whom God have blessed, have wise words to say and they will surely follow the guidelines of the Quran.

The Quran does not exactly in detail tell you how to do most things, he left the to the discretion of the practitioner of His religion. We should follow his guidelines God had written in Quran because it explains His broad Message in a perfectly thorough way. We have a set of guidelines to live by and He told us to live and behave in the manner prescribed in it. He did not give us very harsh or difficult rituals. Most of the Faith is in our heart and how we act upon our Faith residing within ourselves.

The Message existed all the way since the age of Abraham, but it was first when Quran was revealed we had a real authentic scripture. Before that you had a list of commandments written on stone tablets which were inscribed on the top of Mount Sinai according to the story. These tablets seem to be long gone and I believe the exact wordings of the remainder of that Message was perverted in the Old Testament into stoning those who did not obey the Ten Commandments while I think they should be merely cut off from their people.

God can, if He so wishes, guide us without His Book. He is not handicapped. And so happened while Abraham was alive and many other prophets before Moses and when the tablets were made.

The Ten Commandments still live within the Quran. I believe you have all ten of then to be found within Quran, even the Sabbath, to be radical unto you. The Mosaic law had still not been abrogated. The Message has been the same all the way.

Some modifications were made due to perfections of His guidelines due to the sinful nature of mankind or simply due to his mercy. The Message has always been a trial and one aspect of the trial is to never read his statutes too literally as the clergymen had done before Jesus came to them. See the Bible and Jesus working on the Sabbath day for an understanding about that.

Spreading of Peace has also been the fundament of God's religion. People have been peacemakers or muslims all the way. But as you already know, people are prone to divide themselves into sects and assign a man-made title to it, such as Christians did.

God refers to them as "those who call themselves Christian (or rather Nazarenes)" and this is what he hints at. He wishes them to simply call themselves muslim and to follow His religion (system). I think since the 7th century, Christianity has become more corrupted and there probably were more unitarian ones in the past but they probably turned extinct due to the polytheistic nature of man.

You are right when you say the concept of islam is easy, but still it is difficult for some people to grasp and without committing idolatry. Lifting powerless humans or items to a higher rank has been in the nature of man through all ages, often against their will. They would only tell you to worship God and obey (listen to) me, what I have to say.

"No one who calls me lord should see the paradise", alleged saying of the Prophet Jesus (not literal translation, I brought it straight from my memory).

Now I end this lengthy post and hope it somehow helped someone. As usual my posts become longer than I intended and hope you did not fall asleep while reading it. I only say, "Worship God alone, and forget about all the commemoration of humans who were only really powerful due to the grace of God". It is not necessary to pray for them as they have nothing to fear or be changed in their current situation in Heaven (God willing). Saying peace is redundant as they have all the peace they wish. You can greet then in person with peace when you meet them, but they are not aware of your supplications of peace to them from this world.

It is not like God would, every second, approach Muhammad and whisper beside him; "o Muhammad, someone called 'X' just greeted you in his prayer and wished you peace". I think prophet Muhammad would never have a peaceful moment then.

Leave this behavior, just simply use his name if you refer to your ancestors, but leave the man be. Pray for and bless your brethren which live and occasionally wish the whole community, dead or alive, victory.

Finished!

God bless you

justamuslim

Man of faith,

I did read all of your post in its entirety and didn't fall asleep. May be if I read it last night... J/k.

I think I failed in conveying the point I was trying to make by bringing up hadith using that as an example. Anyhow, here's my another attempt.

Re
I am sure drfazl as a person is a nice person, but his views have turned him quite radical.

Ok would a nice person put you down, insulting you? Manoffaith, I really ask that you step back removing yourself from the discussion and read my posts and drfazl posts. I asked drfazl for explanation, evidence supporting his claims, and basically calling him out. And what was his response? I don't have time to quote all that drfazl said in response but I ask that you read his posts.

My question to you is would a nice person respond in the manner that he did? And would he avoid answering questions? You can have radical views but we are taking about characteristics here.

Things like putting down, name calling, insulting, etc are subtle forms of emotional abuse/manipulation. Do you accept this kind of behavior? Not me. I don't care what a person has to say. He could have brilliant ideas but I do not accept or condone such behavior.

You think it is a "nice" to call doctors quacks (without evidence) and other colorful things? I repeatedly asked the same questions and instead of answering, drfazl resorted to insults, put downs, allegations that I hate God and so on. You think that these are the characteristics of a nice person? Well, I sure don't.

Manoffaith, the Koran has examples of every kind of persons and their characteristics. I sure hope that you can see all that.

justamuslim

Man of faith

Re
After seeing some of drfazl's posts I can agree that he is a bit blunt in his behavior and he might have been understood better with an more relaxed and thorough strategy. He may also see if his ideas are not flawed somewhere. He has an extremely radical view of his topic.

Sorry but I beg to differ. Saying that doctors are the cause of all mutations and disabilities is not a radical view or misinformation. Saying that Down syndrome and congenital varicella syndrome (chicken pox affecting the fetus) are caused by doctors is not a matter of disagreement like in having a disagreement over homosexuality. Let's not lose sight here. Let's see and call it for what it is. What drfazl is doing is not spewing his radical views but telling lies and just nonsense.

Manoffaith, did you read drfazl other posts?

Here is what he said
It takes 14 years of energy convergence from birth to develop a sperm in the case of male; and 12 years to develop a ovum in the case of female. Until then the scrotum and the ovaries are just empty sacs. Allah creates life from nothingness is what we shall believe in; and also in that that Allah creates what He Will even if you are aged and infertile; and also even without a male agent or without both male and female agent.

So is it just a matter of disagreement or radical views that a female doesn't need a male to conceive or that post menopausal woman can conceive? Seriously? Do you need a degree to see how totally absurd (for lack of better term) this is? Sperm raping an ovum? Seriously.

Ok I will attempt once again in my making my point. You saw the lies, the absurdity and absolute nonsense in the hadiths but you don't see the same in drfazl's claims and statements?

Manoffaith, with all due respect and putting things in the nicest possible way please open your eyes and see things!

justamuslim

Man of faith,

Salaams again. I don't care for long posts although they end up that way and so I thought of breaking it up )

Re
Okay. Your idea is being blunt against those who are wrong or trying to (probably unintentionally) spread disinformation may be compared to the expression to "fight fire with fire". You may make him even more determined to continue his extremism.

I don't know if i am understanding you right. Are you saying that asking drfazl for information about himself, asking for evidence, calling out on his behavior and farfetched claims is "fight fire with fire" and this will drive him more extreme?

By the way, I am curious to know what you think of the author of the Koran who is extremely blunt. His warnings are stern, to the point and clear. No sugar coating about it. When I read certain verses, i feel the intensity that i just close the book....

Although many here seem to be so captivated by drfazl's posts encouraging him on, coming to his defense... few did refer to the verses reminding him of God's clear warnings.

Now, drfazl can clean up his act or he can continue persisting in his ways and taking along people with him. Obviously he has his supporters. That is his choice and he alone is solely responsible and accountable for his actions. I am not responsible for his extremism, lies, and bad behavior.

Also let me just say that I don't see myself as someone here to guide anyone to God's truths. It is God who guides people who want to be guided. When i see someone lying, behaving badly, leading people astray, I stand up (also do that outside the forum) and say what needs to be said. I feel obliged to.

Manoffaith, by referencing drfazl in your posts, supporting his alleged faith in God, coming to his defense well....you know that is also a statement and reflection of you. Might what to think about that.

Man_of_Faith

Peace justamuslim,

Honestly, if you are going to judge me based on the fact I like some of his ideas feel free to do so. I have said I do not support more than this and that I am somewhat impressed by his 'alleged' Faith in God. It is how things seem to me.

Apart from this I have been trying to become closer to this person out of a neutral aspect without intending to fight him with fire. In case you did not know I have been criticizing him before about some of his stances on his topics, but he never was rude or something like that to me. May it has been something like how I encountered him with criticism.

As I said, I do not support him all out. I do not claim that doctors are pawns of evil and it is not a sin to go to the doctor. The part I agree on is that we should emphasize on our reliance upon God, and that we should try to trust God before we trust the doctors even though they do their best to help us. God's abilities are better than any one doctor.

Sister, I am seeing! And also each individual's behavior has a lasting effect on my feelings towards them.

I do not stand by him if he says bad things to you or anyone else and I do not support misinformation, but I also think that you should have respect due to the fact someone may be talking out of ignorance.

Unfortunately I do not identify the God you tell me about from the Quran. This God is like a good father to me or mentor in case God feels offended by this term after the Jesus scandal.

You shall remember that I am a man who is trying (even if I do not always succeed) to be a friend of my enemy so to say, although I do not consider him an enemy but it was just a comparison. I support drfazl's freedom of speech and he can have his ideas as long as he does not force them upon someone. I may tell him what I think about them occasionally, but he is like a brother to me.

I will try to support and calm you down too and so that we can all see the peace around us. I see you a bit provocative and unfriendly to the words, although I know some people simply are like that, part of their personality. I have to cope with that. I think if you thought about the encounter with drfazl and changed your tactics you might stand a better chance at effecting him. Now you just give him more fuel to the fire.

God bless you

drfazl

Everyone shall read this link below, tendering my apology to justamuslim which she ignored and her main aim is the apology should go unnoticed to others. She never acknowledged my apology until now but on the other hand she is hell-bent on tainting me. So I do not care who she is. I will answer her only with the ayats of Quran and she has to counter me with the ayats of Quran. And if she does not I shall ignore the post.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605427.msg329703#msg329703

wrkmmn

peace savage_carrot

Really? Another poster making disbeliever accusations if anyone talks about going to a doctor when they're sick? That's not extreme at all.
What would you people do really? Lie down and die while muttering to God we return, if you're even conscious and do nothing else even if you have the resources to because that would mean one is becoming a disbeliever? Seriously? It's completely off base to even a remotely objective reader but obviously not to those who belong to the Allah will save us, we shouldn't have to do anything camp.

(296) And thou wilt most certainly find that they cling to life more eagerly than any other people, even more than those who are bent on ascribing divinity to other beings beside God every one of them would love to live a thousand years, although the grant of long life could not save him from suffering for God sees all that they do.

wrkmmn

Peace

answer me with the Qur'an quraniyoon/quranite please, and not with pages and pages of conjecture (if you are truly a Qur'an follower) , because you are giving me the same answers I get from false Christians, false yews, atheist, polytheist, and witchcraft believers.

savage_carrot

peace savage_carrot
(296) And thou wilt most certainly find that they cling to life more eagerly than any other people, even more than those who are bent on ascribing divinity to other beings beside God every one of them would love to live a thousand years, although the grant of long life could not save him from suffering for God sees all that they do.

All those who want to get well if they're sick are now disbelievers, because they are clinging to life more eagerly as they want to get better. Nothing to do with doctors, medicine or cures even! Obviously a particular set is being mentioned...what is that set? Look at the context and see for yourself 293 etc. Even the verse posted itself contradicts 'more than those who associate others with Allah' when you guys yourself say the unforgivable sin is associating doctors/medicine with God. Only those who're willing to lie down and die refusing any cure except a mystical one are true believers...and they don't want to get better as even wanting to is now a no no. Right. Basically, now you and drfazl are disbelieving athiests just like me unless you don't want to get better when you're sick. Congrats and welcome to the club. Pick your badge up by the door.

Peace

answer me with the Qur'an quraniyoon/quranite please, and not with pages and pages of conjecture (if you are truly a Qur'an follower) , because you are giving me the same answers I get from false Christians, false yews, atheist, polytheist, and witchcraft believers.

I prefer true larches to false yews. There's basically little point in 'answer me with the Qur'an quraniyoon/quranite' when there's little reasoning to be had, which one should use to start with before trying to understand any book, let alone the quran.

justamuslim