A challenge to those who claim Quran states 5 salat daily

Timur

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/59.gif (1)1338(2)1504=2

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0004.%20Kitab%20Kaaf%20Ta%20Ba/6.gif (1)289(2)515(3)868(4)2362(5)2729(6)4103(7)4612(6837(9)8309(10)8320=10

Salamun alayka,

although we were talking about salam...

kitab is actually written without any alif in all occurences according to early manuscripts. Please check here

1338 (only examples)

http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=13
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=382 (2nd pge)
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=226
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/13/vers/38?handschrift=56

-1504 (only examples)

http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=13
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=382
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/15/vers/4?handschrift=32
http//www.corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index?sure=15&vers=4&handschrift=56&anzeigen=Anzeigen

I think this will do

unknownuser

There is no gains for dispute about existence of alif,because the languages will get changes/updates one century to another.

Please check Al Mushaf Al Imam in https//archive.org/details/Al-mushaf-Al-Imam
This Mushaf was collected by Khalifah Ustman and notice the alif-lam is exist in the word Kitab.

Wakas

peace all,

Flaws? Please find one in that article about five timings; for convenience a graph is even given therein.

For reference
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182

Along with the above, this thread, again, perfectly demonstrates the problems
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.msg1560#msg1560

I am confident anyone who supports 5 salat daily will inevitably run into these problems.

Mazhar

peace all,

For reference
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182

Response is still awaited on that thread.

good_logic

Peace Wakas, Mazhar, all.

I take a different view from those you conversed with.

With all due respect, I disagree with Wakas also. My view of 5 salat daily has the following explanation

We learn that our salat were confirmed in Quran. The elements that are dealt with in Quran are limited to the tone we use for prayer (17110), the basic steps of ablution and dry ablution (56), shortening the prayers and praying at war (4101-102), praying under unusual circumstances (2239), the times or periods of our five daily salat (2458, 1778, 2238, 11114), how we must observe them regularly and within their designated time frames (7034, 4103),. Any details concerning our salat that are not mentioned in Quran have been guarded and preserved and this is logically why they didn't get to be repeated in Quran.

Muhammad, the believers from among his community and their descendants served as witnesses to pass down and guard our rites including our salat. However, history repeated itself. Few hundred years after Muhammad's departure, Muslims started to inject their idol worshiping beliefs into the salat and they have been explicitly violating 7218 and 729 since then, dedicating their salat to their idols besides God. Following the unchangeable divine system of purifying and preserving our rites, God has sent another messenger, after a period of time, who purified and reconfirmed our salat to be devoted absolutely to God alone (519, 337, 381).

While God's message to humanity is inviting the world to abandon idolatry, worship God alone, and follow the preserved and authenticated word of God in Quran, Satan is at work to nullify this . We have been hearing his whispers and witnessing his desperate attempts of spreading doubts about the manner in which we observe our salat. He has been also disputing the number, the perids, the times, and the order of our salat.

Instead of feeling appreciative, content, and blessed we received and witnessed a messenger who purified and confirmed Quran, and put us back on the monotheistic path, some have been distracted by our ardent enemy. Despite the straightforward verses that spell out God's system of inheriting and preserving our rites, some have been caught up in the Satanic illusion that God would send a messenger to mislead the believers and pass down some wrong teachings in regard of salat- a precedent that DOES NOT exist in Quran. NO where in Quran we find a single example of a messenger who misguided the people or gave them wrong religious practices when their redemption relies on such practices. To the contrary, God assures the believers that His messengers are sent as a mercy to lead them out of darkness, assure their hearts, and teach them the rites to purify and redeem their souls (2150-151, 144-5, 2129, 3164, 622, 9103).

Believing in Quran mandates the belief in the words stated by God to teach us the above system of delivery, practice, inheritance, preservation, and confirmation of our rites through His messengers, His scriptures, and His witnesses. This system is a part of the complete, and perfect details of Quran. Ignoring this system, chosen and clarified by God, and hanging on personal wishes to argue about them after receiving God's guidance reflects our disbelief in the Quran, the lack of trust in its divinity, or the lack of trust in God and His systems.

I believe GOD sends messengers to confirm/clarify .

I hope this clarifies my view of 5 daily salat.

Peace to all

Wakas

peace good logic,

I take a different view from those you conversed with.

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat

... the times or periods of our five daily salat (2458, 1778, 2238, 11114)...

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.

In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.

Scribbler

peace good logic,

The above is your claim but both Mazhar and Joseph use the same verses as you to claim 5 daily salat

In this thread I am only interested in the alleged 5 daily salat timings as per Quran, nothing else.

In this respect, it seems your view is either identical or differs only slightly. If I am wrong, I'd appreciate you highlighting exactly where you differ when it comes to the timings.

Dear Wakas,

Peace be with you.

Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?

Regards.

Wakas

peace,

Can you kindly share where exactly is your objection against brother Mazhar and Joseph's understanding of the five timings?

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794

Scribbler

peace,

Yes, see a few posts back in this thread, reply #42.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg345794#msg345794

Dear brother Wakas,

May peace be with you.

I have read the lengthy discussion between you and Joseph. In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.

Regards.

good_logic

Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat in the Quran

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11114, 2458
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 1778 and 3018
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 2458

Note These are time periods ( not names as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.

Peace to you

Scribbler

Peace Wakas;

FIVE PRAYERS A DAY AND THEIR TIME
I believe this is where God gave us the times for the Salat in the Quran

The Dawn salat (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11114, 2458
The Noon salat (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 1778 and 3018
The Afternoon salat ( or middle ) (Asr in Arabic), given in 2238
The sunset salt (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11114
The Night salat (Isha in Arabic), given in 2458

Note These are time periods ( not names as some wrongly assume!!)of salat.

Peace to you

Salam Alaykum, brother.

Thanks for the post. After pondering for a while, I have start to think that the five timings are indeed mentioned in the Quran, but without specific names as many assume it should be, for example salat-ul-fajr and salat-ul-isha. If one looks for names, then there is no way he/she could ever come up to the conclusion of it being five times a day.

Regards.

Wakas

peace Scribbler,

In my humble view, I can't seem to reject brother Joseph's understanding of the timings, and neither can I outright reject your arguments, and honestly speaking, anyone of you could be right. I have noted that brother Joseph justifies the five timings with an understanding which is 'indirect', and you seem to be looking for explicit mention of the five timings. I think it is best if we can establish the salat five times a day as opposed to two times, since the more you do it, the better it will be for one's soul, no? But depending on our ability and current circumstances, I would conclude that we should do it at least two times a day, and a maximum of five times a day.

Firstly, it is not just about the explicit mention of the five timings, that is only one aspect.

Whilst I may agree that it is difficult to select one view over another sometimes, in this case it is very easy to determine which option causes the most unanswered questions, issues/problems/inconsistencies/etc. With regard to this, the view of a minimum of 2 salat daily for the mumineen, is by far, the least problematic, in my view. I recommend readers to simply make a list of issues for each option, e.g. 5 salat daily, 3 salat daily, 2 salat daily, no salat daily etc.

See which one is the most sound and go with that. Continue to increase one's knowledge etc.

Re more salat the better
I do not see the regular/timed salat for the mumineen as a ritual prayer as I briefly discuss in my article. But in any case, in general, in life there must be balance between knowledge or spirituality - and application or good deeds.
So I do not necessarily agree more salat the better, but that does not mean more is wrong. If one is getting the balance right, then that is up to them.

Wakas

peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.

Mazhar

peace good logic,

I note you did not highlight how your view differs.

As I said, you cite the exact same verses as Mazhar and Joseph do, thus your view will run into the exact same issues as I have already mentioned.

Peace Wakas,

The response to Reply 2 and 3 is still awaited which were the clarifications about your "objections" on this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605766.msg336182#msg336182

Emphasis Salat is prescribed with reference to time. Salat of each time has no specific name other than Salat. It has only relation with time.

Wakas

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

GODsubmitter

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

excellent

Mazhar

Since it seems no-one else wants to participate.

For those that do, please provide the following information for each of the 5 alleged daily salat

Name/reference for salat (with Quran references)
Time start point (with Quran references)
Time end point (with Quran references)

Please note, that if you have no name/reference, please state so.
If you have no start and/or end point for your timing, please state so.

Thanks.

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/000.%20Encyclopaedia%20of%20Arabic%20of%20Qur'aan/8.%20Deen%20Constitution%20Islam%20and%20its%20protocols/Protocols%20of%20Islam/Salat%20timings.jpg

It is a time bound protocol. Number and the appointed timings for its performance during a day

Wakas

Oh dear, the first reply and it's not in the requested format.

Wakas

peace all,

I am actually writing an article on the 5 salat timings issue.

Since no-one accepted the challenge in the manner requested, I decided to write a detailed article so students of Quran can weigh and consider the information for themselves.

All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran

Click http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Mazhar

"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

and are possessive phrases.

Phrase It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic . When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase or a Sentence-.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called

Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.