Greetings Infidels
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One cannot prove God exists, but one cannot prove God does not exist either. Then it comes down to what is the rational inference of what one sees and the question of how it all came into existence, and how a tiny little cell can have enough intelligence to know in which developmental direction to take and many of the wonders of nature. There are many deep questions despite rejecting the fact about the existence of a "higher power". In my opinion it does not add up if one goes by the inference that it is the result of millions of years of development and just a haphazardly generated world with no more sophisticated intelligence behind it and just happened to occur due to conditions that were open to sustain life. Not to mention what kind of triggering mechanism which made all sorts of materia shatter across the universe and then know that if it got in motion then it would rotate around an axis or in an eclipse around the star to avoid being sucked into destruction from it due to gravity. It is quite advanced phenomena we are talking about. And then come saying there is no "higher power" is a bit headstrong in my opinion. "Belief" does not even exist on the map for that higher power, so arguments against it are quite ignorant and deluded.
Sure one can still argue against it, but there are lots of contradictory questions that arise when arguing against a "higher power", such as mentioned above. Even if biologically it is possible in a physiological way for cells to mutate into some changed life form, but something still has to sustain it in some way.
I have however understanding that the pathetic portrayal of God, particularly with Pagan traditional influence, through the centuries does not appeal to people with better knowledge of science and how the world works. The object "God" must be diminished and the real abstract non-object omnipresent entity much like a powerful energy or force which cannot be encompassed. People have to realize that God is from within and without ourselves and God should not be materialized. The idol-style primitive God a'la Ba'al has to be abandoned at some time in history for the more advanced communities the less people will be fooled by the irrational rituals and practices associated with them. That kind of God which people should serve looks for people wandering in its light and let that reflect through his or her behavior and deeds while that God has no needs that someone satisfy any ego of this God or other things commonly associated with the fallible version of god.
Be of one with God
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If a person of faith has weak faith, then why do they call themselves a believer, it makes them an an assumer. I value sincerity as a virtue. BTW I've heard these banal mental gymnastics before.
@Good Knowledge
lol at conflating faith and Science.
Science is not beliefs, It's provides knowledge with different levels of probabilities. Science is not dependent on an individual subjective confidence to a claim, but the actual testable evidence and experiments.
Supernatural is that which violates naturals laws. For any of the thousands of claimed gods to be natural it would require it's existence to palpably demonstrated in the natural world otherwise it's indistinguishable from a belief in leprechauns. I'm pretty sure this hasn't been done yet. Like I said if anybody has sensory data to back up this claim they should bring it, until then they shouldn't be having comversations at the adults table. There's a childrens table for people
who believe in spirits, tooth fairies, deities and other spooks and woo woo.If you look at what you are saying you will find a lot of "faith" in your beliefs.
I have faith for nothing. I'm not certain about any objective claim that have no evidence, which is what faith is.
that's because religion is Santa Claus for grown ups !
As for reading the quran, literature is a subjective medium. Subjective mediums don't provide evidence for objective claims, particularly in a dead language !
Science doen't know everything, it knows alot of things. Religion doesn't know anything
I find the the anathema for Science on here astonishingly hypocritical, considering everyone is on here on a laptop/PC, something given to us by applied Science ROLLEYES
@Man of Faith
Can you prove your not a thief?
Think about that then you're realise how fallacious the "you can't prove argument is" )
Also Intelligent Design arguments? This is what I'd expect if I accidentally went on to a far right crackpots christian creationists website who believe the world is 6000 years old. These are only things a very Scientifically illiterate person would say.
Please tell me where is the intelligence in small helpless children slowly and excruciatingly dying of pneumonia? Where is the intelligence in a mother having a blood haemorrhage when she has to push out her baby through a tunnel which shouldn't be anywhere near as narrow as it is if it was well crafted ? Where is the intelligence in a parasitic worm nourishing on the back of a childs eye in Africa that is torturing him daily and will eventually make him/her go blind ?
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that's because religion is Santa Claus for grown ups !
As for reading the quran, literature is a subjective medium. Subjective mediums don't provide evidence for objective claims, particularly in a dead language !
Again thank you for your honesty, I don't care if you believe or not. that's your problem, many people don't believe
until they are in need. I find it interesting that you turn to believers for a dialogue, why is that, what do you hope
to gain, are you jealous of us? I said nothing about you reading Quran, at the moment it is not for you. -
Peace JiburIshman.
Thank you for your "confused" statements.
I agree with you, there is no religion. However I disagree with you about the Designer?
"... The darkness sacramental of the Eucharist is unfathomable. Besides, if it were intelligible, it would not be divine. If the God we serve could be understood by reason, he would not worth to be served, said Tauler *; ... if the works of God were such that the intelligence of man could easily grasp them, they cease to be wonderful and could not be described as ineffable. "
- John Tauler Theoligian
You are confused about why you are here in this life and have no idea who you are? That is my understanding according to your latest post.
"...We are fortunate to live in an age where scientific and technological advances allow a better understanding of the precise physical and biological laws of this world. Unfortunately, divine grace always exposes the human's ingratitude. Most people are convinced that reason and science prove the in-existence of God rather than His existence. The more they attain knowledge about the laws and systems of the entire universe, the more they incline to believe that the creation of the universe and the repetition of creation they witness every second passes by are accidental! They, thus, conclude that those laws and systems simply exist haphazardly. How irrational and ironic! Laws and systems do not exist without a supreme intelligence and an omnipotent source to establish them. If they were haphazardly set, how would they constantly perform in such sophistication, precision, consistency, coordination and harmony?"
Unlike you I take faith and reason(Science/logic...) to go together.
Yes I agree with you on bits
"...Another irony is that the majority of those who believe in God go to the other extreme and abolish all forms of reason! Their spiritual path becomes illogical and mystical. It is based on superstition and concepts that contradict both common sense and the physical laws of this world. Without questioning or verifying, they repeat their ancestral religious practices or follow their opinions and traditions even if they contradict the scripture they claim to uphold. Thus, they lead a life with a fake spirit and unauthentic identity that has nothing to do with the title of their faith.. They are diverted from the path of God, without knowing, supported by Satan who always promotes idol worship under the guise of monotheism. Faith without reason does not reveal the entire truth. Faith without reason is also flawed and fake since it can not be fully traced, backed up and verified."
But unfortunately I disagree with you on a lot!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
It is a different matter. But the matter of proving God or not is too abstract to be able to prove anything. You cannot prove or disprove God. But you can always try. Go on.
More fallacious is the statement that "how can there be a higher power when there is so much mischief in the world". It does not prove anything either.
And you can also explain to me how cells can know their direction of evolution and how the universe came into existence and how it just happen to exist. And soon unless you delude yourself you would realize some way or another a sort of "higher power" is needed. And soon you would realize whose the fallible statement is.
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I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are supernaturalists. The majority of humans have beliefs which lack evidence, this is not just restricted to religion, ie some people uninfected with the god belief believe that George Bush knocked down the Twin Towers.
If we were to discover concious life in the universe and be able communicate with them in something like a language I'd want to know if they like most people on Earth believe objective claims about reality which have zero evidence.
If anyone can give convincing reasons to me I'd like to think I can change my mind on anything if provided with good arguments. If something is true and can directly effect me I wanna know about it. I want to know how things happen, how they came about. Is the universe infinite or did it have a beginning? What's the origin of life? how did biological conciousness first arise from chemical molecules? etc. Religions have treaded on the feet of Science by making claims in these fields.
@goodlogic
You are confused about why you are here in this life and have no idea who you are? That is my understanding according to your latest post.
If there was a reason completely out of my control that I'm here in this life then I'd be a suppressed individual living in a autocratic dictatorship. It's rather supercilious to assume we have a purpose. You already have the presupposition that there has to be a purpose to life then working from there. We humans aren't special and it's highly unlikely we are eternally immortal as our "selfs". We are just 1.5% smarter than chimps. If there is a species in the universe 1.5% smarter than us, they would look at us humans & think "look at these dumb animals".
There is very probably no ultimate purpose to life and one should realise that no matter how much it hurts our frail egos. One we all accept the mediocrity we are in then we can work on improving the only life we know we'll have.
Your own purpose in life is something you choose for yourself. If it's something you accept is chosen for you, you are accepting you're are a slave who has been designated his/her purpose by his slavemaster. For some their purpose if feminism, veganism yoga etc. The beauty of being a freethinker is that is you get to choose yourself .
Most people are convinced that reason and science prove the in-existence of God rather than His existence
I've not heard any Scientist say this, this is a rather absurd misrepresentation. You can't disprove a negative, that's one of the fundamental basics of critical thinking ie nobody can disprove they are a murderer, nobody can disprove the existence of dragons. What Science can do is show how supernatural explanations are unnecessary.
A lot of the time I hear and see sweeping generalisations and misrepresentations of people who aren't supernaturalists. By many it's assumed they all hold one position on politics, science, philosophy etc. Me not being convinced about the existence of supernatural deities is just an answer of no to that question. It doesn't say anything about my views on anything else. I've never stated for example that the universe came about accidentally. There are speculative possibilities in theoretical Physicists in regards to the origins of the Universe however I don't know how the universe came about or even it was created, and nor does anyone else yet. For me saying "I don't know" is the most sincere and virtuous answer to that question. No amount of armchair philosophy can change that.
sophistication, precision, consistency, coordination and harmony?"
Really? Nature is trying to kill us in so many ways. Aids, wildfires, typhoons, cancer, volcanoes, tornadoes, avalanches, tsunamis, droughts, cyclones, tuberclosis, floods, heatwaves, cholera, polio, ebola, sars, mengingities, malaria etc. I fail to see how this is intelligent work.
@Man of Faith
Wow you really just came out with god of the gaps arguments?
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Peace JiburIshman.
Thanks for your comments.
Many of us at some point or another in our lives start to question where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens to us after we die? Is death the grim end, or is it but a gate that leads into a different kind of existence? We often wonder how did it all come to be? Is there some kind of power responsible for the creation of the vast universe and all that's in it, or did everything around us just happen to be?
Is there a God? But obviously you do not!!!
The French Philosopher Pascal concluded that belief was the wisest bet because the believer will either have bliss if he is right or oblivion if he is wrong, whereas the atheist has the less attractive alternatives of oblivion or damnation. #1 (The case against God, Gerald Priestland, Page 14)
You must have heard/seen many arguments for and against , I will not bore you with them, you are free to choose for yourself.
However, I like to quote Qoran a lot,even though you might say
"Why are you quoting the Qoran when I do not believe in it?"I will quote anyway,hoping you will read it,you can also ignore if you wish, because I believe Qoran is made easy to learn by its Author, the Most Gracious.
He specifies His mercy for whomever He wills; God possesses unlimited grace.
Those who believe in God, and hold fast to Him, He will admit them into mercy from Him, and grace, and will guide them to Him in a straight path
As for those who repent, reform, and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Exempted are those who repent thereafter, and reform. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
..... Your Lord has decreed that mercy is His attribute. Thus, anyone among you who commits a transgression out of ignorance, and repents thereafter and reforms, then He is Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores God for forgiveness, will find God Forgiving, Most Merciful.
.... "Our Lord, shower us with Your mercy, and bless our affairs with Your guidance."
... `Our Lord, we have believed, so forgive us and shower us with mercy. Of all the merciful ones, You are the Most Merciful.'
... "Our Lord, do not condemn us if we forget or make mistakes. Our Lord, and protect us from blaspheming against You, like those before us have done. Our Lord, protect us from sinning until it becomes too late for us to repent. Pardon us, forgive us, and have mercy on us. You are our Lord and Master...
May the Merciful bless you,forgive you and guide you.
Peace. -
And how about countering the arguments that I wrote rather than trying to act like a wiseguy, jiburl?
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I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are super naturalists.
Peace JiburIshman,
My position on beliefs is quite simple, "we are born with an inclination, and if needed, an access to the
spiritual realm". This statement is not to be taken lightly by someone seeking to understand faith.
Due to the pervading evidence of worship, spiritualism, magic, angels, demons, life after death, and the varying
explanations of the unseen and the human need to find God and there is ample evidence that this phenomenon
has continued throughout the human experience. To be dismissive of this fact actually shows a lack of intelligence,
with all of the anthropological data (the behavioral science branch) one with an unbiased examination can conclude
we humans have a spiritual inclination, like all other cross cultural behaviors like music, love, fear, and all else that
makes us human. For instance Not all people have a belief in the unseen, but cross culturally we do, much
like not all people like music or not all folks fall in love, but our cross cultural behaviors cannot
be dismissed because we personally do not no why such characteristics exist.If we were to discover conscious life in the universe and be able communicate with them in something like a language I'd want to know if they like most people on Earth believe objective claims about reality which have zero evidence.
Here again, I'm sorry, not to be offensive, but intelligent life in the universe is your Santa Claus
i.e., no proof, no evidence. Scientists would like to believe that there is intelligent life out there
with all the stars etc., they ask "how could we be alone?" again, no proof, no evidence that someone is out there.If anyone can give convincing reasons to me I'd like to think I can change my mind on anything if provided with good arguments. If something is true and can directly effect me I wanna know about it. I want to know how things happen, how they came about. Is the universe infinite or did it have a beginning? What's the origin of life? how did biological conciousness first arise from chemical molecules? etc. Religions have treaded on the feet of Science by making claims in these fields.
I'd like to know the answers to these same questions! However those things don't directly affect my every day life.
God bless
peace
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@goodlogic
I have heard of Pascals Wager many a time before.
It has many problems, for example how would you know you're beelining in the right god and won't face the repercussions of not believing in the right one? If I accept Jesus as my personal saviour and god, I'd go to the islamic hell for shirq(polytheism) if it turns out islam is true. If i I believe in Allah and no other as his equal as islam requires and it turns out Christianity is true i'd get thrown in the christian hell for not accepted Jesus as my personal saviour. I suppose you could worm your way out of that by saying "oohh only god knows who really goes to hell" or "as long as you except any god you won't go to hell".
As for oblivion I like the idea as it means I won't have to know my family forever ;D
@ManOfFaith
Arguments for ignorance, which you made are not a reason to believe in a supernatural sorcerer magician. Not having a Scientific explanation for something yet does prove the existence of anything Deity whether it's Krishna, Ahura Mazdha or Allah.
There is a long list of things which people had(and still do) supernatural/spiritual beliefs for which we have now understood the processes much better with naturalistic Scientific explanations. IE epilepsy, thunder/lightning, origin of species etc. If someone has an epileptic fit no Scientifically literate person will now say "oh it's demonic possession, let's have an exorcism", rather he/she will be given anticonvulsants.
If you believe in a god of the gaps as you have demonstrated who directs evolution, created the universe etc and natural explanations are found for these processes will it lead to you jettisoning that belief?
That we have evolved to have many superstitious beliefs is not an argument for those beliefs being true.
When I spoke of Intelligent Life in the universe I said "if" it was discovered. I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist. Please don't distort or misrepresent what I'm saying, if anything it makes you look slimey and duplicitous.
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Peace JiburIshman.
Ah but there is only one god!!!!!
Have we not agreed before, that there is no Judaism, Christianity, traditional Islam...etc. There are all man made religions?
There is only one system, God s system. While you and I have the choice now, we can choose God s system or man s system,but eventually God s system will prevail after this predetermined period for all of us.
So choose carefully and kill your "ego" now.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
If a person of faith has weak faith, then why do they call themselves a believer, it makes them an an assumer. I value sincerity as a virtue. BTW I've heard these banal mental gymnastics before.
Believer assumer hypoteser whatever names that you see fits, it's practically the same.
When human faced with an 'unknown' / 'unclear' circumstances they will assume, believe, hypothesize about something to fill the gap.
Heck that's how things get started in scientific method anyway..
Start with a 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and then try to test such 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis'.
If the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' proven to be incorrect then adjust the 'belief' / 'assumption' / 'hypothesis' and restart the process.Einstein believed that 'black hole' do not exist, yet he's proven wrong after his death..
Einstein believed that 'worm hole' do exist, yet so far no evidence of the existence of such 'worm hole'..
Einstein believed that 'the nazi germany' possess nuclear weapon, and helped to build one for the USA, thus caused hundred of thousand deaths of Japanese civilians, yet he's proven wrong after WWII ended, the nazis do not possess any nuclear weapon.The belief shaped the action..
It's the action that shall be judged..Sincerity and Honesty is a good virtue...
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Peace JiburIshman,
Beliefs are just what the word means, either you believe or you don't, put your calculator away!
I never made a claim with absolute certainty, which is what one is required to do to be a supernatural theist.
Says Who, you? rotfl hail
You said earlier
I like to have conversations with people who have beliefs in things that I find very peculiar. I am genuinely perplexed as to how some otherwise very intelligent people believe in invisible magical entities with absolute certainty. You have people with PHD's who are supernaturalists. The majority of humans have beliefs which lack evidence, this is not just restricted to religion, ie some people uninfected with the god belief believe that George Bush knocked down the Twin Towers.
You are not perplexed my friend, you are in my opinion, jealous or angry but not perplexed, you appear to be
well informed but envious of us who find peace thru faith, while you are left with yourThe only spirits that are reality based to me so far are Gin and Vodka
I noticed you used the words "so far," that's good.
God bless
peace
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I would say he is deluded by this world.
The pathetic impression of world religions do not help either with their object god idol more resembling a grumpy bearded old man in military uniform than an abstract entity that exists in all materia/energy of the world.
Be of one with God
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@goodlogic
clarity in speaking is important, what do you mean by gods system? and how do you know this systems exist? what data do you have access to that nobody else has?
Theism has always been a belief with 100% certainty that a supernatural god exists. If you are not 100% you are an agnostic.
How can one ascertian jealousy or anger through a screen? I find otherwise educated grown adults having invisible, imaginary friends very bizarre and childish and try to understand why they need that.
I don't have the fear that i could very possibly face an eternal holocaust where I'm repeadtly burnt by a god because of thought crimes who doesn't accept me as I am. What exactly is there to be jealous of there? Why would I be jealous on a belief which draws people in through fear mongering and treat people like children who need something to be scared of to manipulate them?
@Man of Faith
Play the ball, not the man. What's with the personal insults? Are you ten years old and in Primary School?
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Jiburl,
Deluded does not necessarily mean I insult you, only that you are fooled to think a certain way. I wrote also that we have the pathetic impression of "world religions" to blame for that.
And "faith" is not the way you think and have been fed with information until now or read poorly translated Arabic/Aramaic scriptures. What is "God" does not require any kind of "belief" or confirmation.
But ignore "God" for starters for that is not the important matter but what is important is who you are. Behavior and deeds is quite essential.
I implied in the previous post that "God" is not some kind of grumpy old skyman in military uniform who yells out orders like a drill sergeant. Entirely without needs or wants, except a final energy charge measurement which determines good vs evil in ourselves and we bring doom upon ourselves and not that "higher power" since the souls are shallow and empty. "God" could care less without any need or wants but also is a goodly spirit so information is out to people who are spiritual enough to perceive it.
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power". Since you ignore that and do not answer my questions I took you for deluded and that is not intended as an insult but rather as a state you are in. You cannot "disbelieve" in something that is obvious so all you can be is deluded. And you can be part of it but you cannot "believe" in it because it is obvious.
And if you have nothing to say but irony or even sarcastic remarks then so be it. Enjoy yourself. But I would mind my behavior if I were you.
Be united
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Peace JiburIshman.
I simply have "my proof". Searched ,studied ,compared ,reflected,observed, checked... Now I am certain about the existence of my Creator and His system.
Of course "proof" is for the believers,which is another issue.
We may be on a different path /journey at the moment,but one day we will both realise the true path. I just hope that it is not too late for either me or you.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@Man of Faith
Yuur mental contortions obfuscate things more than they provide lucidity. How can you even know what a god wants/needs or doesn't want/need when no god can even be discerned?
Besides I gave you reasons to why you would not be able to exist if it was not for some incomprehensible "higher power".
up to now we know that some things are created and some don't require a creator. The "what ever begins to exist need a creator" fallacy is outdated armchair philosophy that has been demonstrably debunked and proven to be untrue with Quantam Mechanics.
@good logic
personal visceral feelings are not proof of an objective claim. Those same type of subjective feelings lead to many other people to a completely different religious certainty belief which are irreconcilable with yours. How would it be possible to work out between yours and a persons whose religious belief is different whose is true and untrue ?
peace
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Peace JiburIshman.
I recognise the differences and respect that each one of us has the freedom to choose.
Do you?
Then, we agree to disagree.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Quantum physics only prove the phenomenon of "God" or a 'Constancy' effect even better. Science is good to explain what that 'Constancy' is. And science also creates new questions to be asked.
But it is not fallible to think a "background intelligence" is needed for life to evolve. Either that little cell is very intelligent or there is higher intelligence. What do you think is true?
It is not a fallible argument at all, or how would you expect that the universe with its energy have everything bind together. I find it is more fallible and irrational saying there is no "higher power". Please answer the questions instead of trying to be arrogant.
But you have a deluded image of what is "God". Because you think it is an object while it is an abstract force/energy, and it is the expanding universe itself and all its energy. What else do you think is causing everything in the world including imaginative looking animals and all sorts of wonderful phenomena. You think nature needed it itself?
You think nature knew what looks nice?
What caused gravity to exist?
Why do atoms stick together and form molecules?
What keeps the universe with all its mass to keep together?
There are so many questions I could ask you and you find no answers except some rude response and a delusive reply about something called "God" that I do not stand by, because you do not look beyond your own own scope. Come up with something instead of some generic replies.
And not have you yet explained my original question without showing the worst of attitude.
And there is no needs or wants for that 'constancy' but only people who are good and are aligned.
Gain harmony, will you?