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  4. Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165

Oldest Qur?an manuscript MA VI 165

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • F Offline
    F Offline
    farati
    wrote on last edited by
    #141

    Peace, another member messaged me to confirm if "alif" in old manuscripts i.e. b-s-m spelling was specific to bismillah or does it also occur in other instances...

    200 in name the god the almighty the merciful
    208 the god not deity except he for him the names the beautiful
    Birmingham Quran ch19v93-ch20v13
    http//oi65.tinypic.com/6sxq52.jpg

    MA VI 165 Quran ch19v97-ch20v16
    http//oi64.tinypic.com/2v9sq3t.jpg

    MA VI 165 Quran ch27v28-40
    http//oi63.tinypic.com/2zioifb.jpg

    2228 to witness they of gains for them and remembered/mention they of name the god in days well-known on what provided them from beast the cattle so eat ye of therein and feed ye of the miserable the poor
    2234 and to each community made we of rite of to remembers they of name the god on what provided them from beast the cattle so the deity yours deity one so to him submit ye of and give news the humble ones
    MA VI 165 Quran ch22v28-35
    http//oi66.tinypic.com/idhd9i.jpg

    2436 in houses which the god that elevate and remembered therein name his glorify for him therein in the early/morning and the evenings
    MA VI 165 Quran ch24v35-42
    http//oi65.tinypic.com/2qxx5bs.jpg

    So, the Quran from Birmingham is the same as today? Now we have evidence that Quran never changed.

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    • N Offline
      N Offline
      Noon_waalqalami
      wrote on last edited by
      #142

      So, the Quran from Birmingham is the same as today? Now we have evidence that Quran never changed.

      Peace, yes MA VI 165 as well (Birmingham is only two pages) which are same as today's except for verse numbering i.e. initials were not counted as separate verses and usage of alif mostly.

      e.g. the other day thought there was consistency error with missing alif in 1942 said?

      If we look carefully scribes had system to differentiate and applied consistently throughout manuscript...

      no alif if address to one person
      1942 when said to father his O father mine

      alif if referring to many people
      2152 when said to father his and folk his

      https//s27.postimg.org/wn1kjjhbn/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch19v33-v45.jpg

      https//s27.postimg.org/6srrtrhbn/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch21v43-v57.jpg

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      • R Offline
        R Offline
        reel
        wrote on last edited by
        #143

        Peace, yes MA VI 165 as well (Birmingham is only two pages) which are same as today's except for verse numbering i.e. initials were not counted as separate verses and usage of alif mostly.

        No numbering, but we can still see the divisions on the pages
        http//www.hazardlab.jp/contents/post_info/1/0/5/10504/quran.jpg

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        • N Offline
          N Offline
          Noon_waalqalami
          wrote on last edited by
          #144

          No numbering, but we can still see the divisions on the pages

          Peace, there was numbering i.e. dashes at end of verses and larger markings start/end of 10 verses which scribes used as reference and to keep count/checksum; although earliest manuscripts initials had no end verse marks thus not counted/combined into single verse, e.g.

          191 kaaf ha ya ain saad (no end verse marks counted as one with next verse)
          192 remembrance mercy lord your devotee his Zakariyya

          https//s26.postimg.org/jm1leh6p5/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch18v107-ch19v7.jpg

          Here is another early 1st century AH Sana manuscript example end 9128-129 to 107

          https//s26.postimg.org/qzurinuw9/Sana_Qur_an_ch9v127-ch10v7.jpg

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          • N Offline
            N Offline
            Noon_waalqalami
            wrote on last edited by
            #145

            Peace, a forum user noticed Tanzil web site, 9127, the word "yarakum" is spelled with 'ya' in the Uthmanic script spelling, and with an 'alif' in the simplified Imlaei script spelling and wanted to confirm with older manuscripts.

            There should be no alif in 9127 yarkum/seeth you (plural) same as in examples below...

            2440 yarh/seeth it
            26218 yarka/seeth you (singular)

            https//s26.postimg.org/89glfarop/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch24v35-42.jpg

            https//s26.postimg.org/ectklgskp/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch26v205-ch27v3.jpg

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            • N Offline
              N Offline
              Noon_waalqalami
              wrote on last edited by
              #146

              peace, thank you to Mazhar for pointing out likay l OR combined likayl

              upon checking older manuscripts and usage within context...

              (written as two separate words if referring to plural) OR (written as single word if referring to singular)

              1670 needs to be consistent with 225 and likewise 3153 with 5723

              not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(315314)
              not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(57231)
              3153 likay l tazan (plural)
              5723 likay l tasaw (plural)

              not correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(167011)
              correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(22550)
              1670 and among you whom (singular) intends to feeble the upkeep likayl
              225 and among you whom (singular) intends to feeble the upkeep likayl
              https//s7.postimg.org/wcrewdtqz/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch22v5-11.jpg

              correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(333732)
              3337 likay l being upon the believers (plural) critical
              https//s7.postimg.org/4qonbw5az/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v33-38.jpg

              correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(335054)
              3350 likayl being upon you (singular) critical
              https//s7.postimg.org/k1ygca557/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch33v50-53.jpg

              correct http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(59717)
              597 kay l being circulation between the rich (plural)

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              • H Offline
                H Offline
                HP_TECH
                wrote on last edited by
                #147

                Your corpus links are not working Noon

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                • N Offline
                  N Offline
                  Noon_waalqalami
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #148

                  peace, correction found 1670 verse in old manuscript (Or 2165)

                  http//www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=or_2165_fs001r#

                  1670 and the god creation yours furthermore taketh of you and among you whom intends to feeble the upkeep likay/surely that may l/not knoweth after knowledge thing of indeed the god knower supreme

                  https//s7.postimg.org/n58ve3abf/Or_2165_Quran_manuscipt_ch16v65-75.jpg

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                  • The_SardarT Offline
                    The_SardarT Offline
                    The_Sardar
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #149

                    Peace, a forum user noticed Tanzil web site, 9127, the word "yarakum" is spelled with 'ya' in the Uthmanic script spelling, and with an 'alif' in the simplified Imlaei script spelling and wanted to confirm with older manuscripts.

                    There should be no alif in 9127 ىركم yarākum/seeth you (plural) same as in examples below...

                    2440 ىرها yarāhā/seeth it
                    26218 ىرك yarāka/seeth you (singular)

                    https//s26.postimg.org/89glfarop/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch24v35-42.jpg

                    https//s26.postimg.org/ectklgskp/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch26v205-ch27v3.jpg

                    The images are gone. You might wanna find it again.

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                    • N Offline
                      N Offline
                      Noon_waalqalami
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #150

                      peace, they're all here with other old manuscripts

                      https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/17/vers/36?handschrift=107

                      https//i.postimg.cc/RhBMNmQW/ch17v35-46.jpg

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                      • The_SardarT Offline
                        The_SardarT Offline
                        The_Sardar
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #151

                        Thank you dear brother for the link.

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