Iblys and his Seed
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I agree with you entirely huruf on this matter. We know jinn were created from fire. We know Iblis was created from smokeless fire. We know hell consists of fire.
If we follow the deception shaytan offers us, then we return to Iblis after being judged. Shaytan being a jinn created from fire that used to have the rank of malaika. Shaytan will regain his rank of malaika and will govern hell as Iblis as God commands him to.
This is my interpretation. Scholars and others often believe Iblis gets condemned to hell for disobeying Gods command to sujud to Adam. Imho this is not the case. The malaika jinn Iblis got debased from malaika to jinn when he refused, according to Gods plan. When hell is opened with the Last Day, Iblis will retake his malaika rank and will obey entirely Gods command, as malaika do.
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Peace Runninglikezebras@,
We know jinn were created from fire.
Nay! According to the Quran (1527, 5515), it was l-Gn () that G-D apportioned out of a 'mrig' () from 'nr l summ' ( ) ...
We know Iblis was created from smokeless fire.
... and since 'hybris' was apportioned from 'nr' () , it therefore belongs to l-Gn ().
... The malaika jinn Iblis got debased from malaika to jinn when he refused, according to Gods plan ...
Hybris disassociated itself from G-D's command, hence it became of the 'outsiders' (), i.e. it no longer belonged to l-malykah () that G-D constantly enjoins us to seek and implement/experience (such as Humility, Benignity, Compassion, Patience, Gratitude, Respect, Generosity, Courage, Perseverance, ... etc)
~ This is my humble understanding (as an apprentice), our 'Master' knows best.
SLM
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When hell is opened with the Last Day, Iblis will retake his malaika rank and will obey entirely Gods command, as malaika do.
Peace runninglikezebras,
Interesting, what is the source of the understanding above? What is your understanding of 7/18.
God bless you
peace
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Peace Runninglikezebras@,
Nay! According to the Quran (1527, 5515), it was l-Gn (ن that G-D apportioned out of a 'mrig' (ج from 'nr l summ' ( م ...
Edit I see what you are saying I didn't properly read your message, your point is l-Gn in those verses is different from b]l-Gin is that correct? If that's the case I disagree. The jinn referred to in the rest of the story of Iblis and Adam are being referred to here, I see no evidence that tells me this is wrong. I agree jinn essentially means hidden, 1527 tells us these 'hidden creations' were created from fire. You can't ignore the previous verse that tells us man was created from clay (material). There is a clear linguistic structure there that is mimicked in both verses.
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Interesting, what is the source of the understanding above? What is your understanding of 7/18.
God bless you
peace
714 Gives Iblis respite until the Last Day. If Iblis' time of respite ends with the Last Day then he is no longer just jinn/shaytan at that moment or he wouldn't be Iblis. At the day of raising up he will be Iblis again, one of the malaika. The following verses tell us what his role will be at the Last Day.
715 Shows us this is according to Gods plan.
716 Tells us Iblis' intentions during this time of respite in which he is no longer a malaika and has free will. Notice how Iblis says literally "because you have sent me astray". Indicating all of this is according to Gods design and plan.
717 Iblis further elaborates how he will cause deception to prove his point of most of his new creation being ungrateful to God.
718 Seals the deranking of Iblis from his status of malaika. He gets expelled from his status and sent into this world with all the ones given respite until the day of raising up. The Quranic words used madhman and madran have no evidence for them being a judgment. It's even impossible for them to be judgment as Iblis has been given respite. The more plausible meaning is expelled from his status of malaika (controller) and cast out of "heaven". Then God continues and promises to fill hell with all those who follow Iblis/shaytan including Iblis himself. Logic dictates if Iblis exists when hell is opened and Iblis is in it then Iblis is controlling it as a malaika. Besides this, how would Iblis (being created from fire) suffer from the fire in hell? Fighting fire with fire isn't very effective as we know. The fire in hell is the nature of Iblis and his way of controlling hell.ps also denote how what we traditionally refer to as the Last Day is described in Quran as "raising up". This is no coincidence. Shaytan when he gets raised up on that day will be raised to malaika. Man will be raised up as well, as we will no longer be able to hide the truth. We will confess our sins without being able to hide them.
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One should also consider the following logic. If Iblis gets sent to hell as a punishment while not controlling it, how does it not contradict malaika obeying Gods command?
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718 Seals the deranking of Iblis from his status of malaika. He gets expelled from his status and sent into this world with all the ones given respite until the day of raising up. The Quranic words used madhman and madran have no evidence for them being a judgment. It's even impossible for them to be judgment as Iblis has been given respite. The more plausible meaning is expelled from his status of malaika (controller) and cast out of "heaven". Then God continues and promises to fill hell with all those who follow Iblis/shaytan including Iblis himself. Logic dictates if Iblis exists when hell is opened and Iblis is in it then Iblis is controlling it as a malaika. Besides this, how would Iblis (being created from fire) suffer from the fire in hell? Fighting fire with fire isn't very effective as we know. The fire in hell is the nature of Iblis and his way of controlling hell.
7/18 said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill
Hell with you, all together."Peace runninglikezebras,
I am with you until you get to 7/18, Iblis, Satan, Jinn, Humans are all candidates that go to hell! I do not
find in Quran Kareem any suggestion that Iblis will be promoted to supervisor once he reaches jahannam.
Applying our logic to the unseen is tenuous at best because we only know what Allah tells us concerning it.
Anyway, why would Iblis be rewarded for leading folks astray?One should also consider the following logic. If Iblis gets sent to hell as a punishment while not controlling it, how does it not contradict malaika obeying Gods command?
Very good question that I've pondered also. One could speculate (which I do not take as truth)
that the malaika at some point had free will and the disobedient became jinns & Remember
the malaika did ask Allah a question in 2/30, were they conscious/ aware, maybe.God bless you
peace
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... your point is l-Gn in those verses is different from l-Gin is that correct?
Yep.
If that's the case I disagree. The jinn referred to in the rest of the story of Iblis and Adam are being referred to here, I see no evidence that tells me this is wrong.
Ok, you are entitled to disagree ... but,
aren't you simply overlooking a fundamental rule in (Arabic) morphology!?
One that states addition in 'structure' denotes addition in 'meaning' ( )?This simply means that since the Quranic term Gn () contains an additional aliph () in the middle, then - from a linguistic (and logical) point of view - a difference (in meaning) must exist between Gn () and Gin () .
That being said, one could of course attempt to argue that the term Gn () is used in contrast with Ins () in the Quran (5539,56,74), and therefore Gn () and Gin () are somehow interchangeable, since the later term (Gin) is almost always used in contrast with Ins () in the Quran. Right?
Such argument, however, is unsound. Not only because it contradicts the (simple) morphological rule (stated above) but, most importantly, because there is a good chance that the mid-aliph of Gn () (in 5539,56,74) is a 'later addition' made by the (sunni?) scriveners The (modern) addition of aliphs to Quranic words is consistently attested throughout the Quranic text .
Now, the remaining question is
How can we possibly verify whether the aliph of Gn () is authentic (ie. not a 'later addition'?The answer to this is
- check (1527, 5515) in the oldest Quranic manuscript (we have), or
- simply realize that nsn () Ins () - the same way Gn () Gin ()
SLM
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Peace hicham9,
I agree the addition in structure denotes addition in meaning. In other languages one can address mankind using the word man. Most likely Arabic has a similar property. Therefor Gn (ن is most likely used for 'jinnkind' in analogy to man and mankind. Eg Adam you can address as man but also in a figurative way as mankind. Similar with jinn and jinnkind. They have similar meaning however.
Summarized when God created Adam as an individual, God also created humankind. The same is true for jinn. When the first of each one was created by God, quite literally the individual and groupname is completely interchangeable even in a literal sense.
This to me looks the most plausible hypothesis on the morphological difference. If another hypothesis on explaining this morphological difference is to convince me, it should offer a theory that respects the parallel structure in both verses. Meaning there is too much analogy to allow a major change in subjects.
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Peace hawk99
7/18 said, "Get out of Paradise, reproached and expelled. Whoever follows you among them - I will surely fill
Hell with you, all together."Peace runninglikezebras,
I am with you until you get to 7/18, Iblis, Satan, Jinn, Humans are all candidates that go to hell! I do not
find in Quran Kareem any suggestion that Iblis will be promoted to supervisor once he reaches jahannam.
Applying our logic to the unseen is tenuous at best because we only know what Allah tells us concerning it.
Anyway, why would Iblis be rewarded for leading folks astray?Very good question that I've pondered also. One could speculate (which I do not take as truth)
that the malaika at some point had free will and the disobedient became jinns & Remember
the malaika did ask Allah a question in 2/30, were they conscious/ aware, maybe.God bless you
peace
Peace hawk99
The khalfatan in 230 is Shaytan (Iblis without malaika status). There is no evidence suggesting Malaika ever had free will. Quran only tells us they dont. Who do you think the khalfatan of hell will be, other than Iblis, the malaika created from smokeless fire? We know God will not govern Hell as hell is a place removed from God in the most extreme sense.
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Peace hawk99
Peace hawk99
The khalfatan in 230 is Shaytan (Iblis without malaika status). There is no evidence suggesting Malaika ever had free will. Quran only tells us they dont. Who do you think the khalfatan of hell will be, other than Iblis, the malaika created from smokeless fire? We know God will not govern Hell as hell is a place removed from God in the most extreme sense.
7431 tells us it will be Angels controlling Hell. Who of the Angels shall control hell? The ones who did sujud for Adam, or those who didnt?
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Who do you think the khalfatan of hell will be, other than Iblis, .
Peace runninglikezebras,
Thank you for the reply, to answer the above, I cannot because as I mentioned before speculation is
just that i.e., speculation, therefore you need to supply verses from Quran to speak (type) with
certainty. Please give verse where Iblis rules hell or at least context.7431 tells us it will be Angels controlling Hell.
Agreed, but Iblis is jinn, distinct from malaika, no longer a controller/helper but enemy (20117).
God bless you
peace
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I believe the Bible says the love of money is the root of all evil. That probably equates to envy and jealosy.
I believe pride exalts self when it is Allah that should be exalted. Iblis wanted to be God instead of Allah but his way of going about it was to negate God which forms the source of his evil. Basicly he envies the power of God and money is basicly power.
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I'm telling you that 'Iblys' is 'Pride' itself!
I believe that is attributing a person to a quality. No doubt Iblis stands as a symbol of pride but He does not maigicaly appear in anyone who has it.
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Thank you for the reply, to answer the above, I cannot because as I mentioned before speculation is
just that i.e., speculation, therefore you need to supply verses from Quran to speak (type) with
certainty. Please give verse where Iblis rules hell or at least context.Agreed, but Iblis is jinn, distinct from malaika, no longer a controller/helper but enemy (20117).
God bless you
peace
I believe the passage says that Hell is guarded not controlled. Only God can control Hell.
The passage about Iblis and Adam refers to the garden episode and I believe the Norse myths have bearing in that regard. I believe the serpent was Hel who was a shapeshifter and a trickster. However Hel may have originally been a lizard person and was showing his/her true nature. The lizard people were ancient enemies of the sun people (Mayan legend) in heaven and sometimes that enmity spills over to this planet as well. I beleive the sun people were called that because of their blonde hair but they were only one of the Caucasian races to come from other planets. It is most probable that the Adamic race is indiginous ie native to this world.
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How can iblis who was made from smokeless fire suffers in fire when he is made of fire? The same way we human beings are made of clay being buried in clay.
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Salaam running,
Give me the Arabic text that says that Jinns are faithful and I will take a look at it. I suppose you just looked at a translation.
Have faith
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@MoF 721 is one indication towards a group of them being faithful, logically implying some of them are not.
1146 further demonstrates Jinn can be influenced by the whispers of evil.
There are more than likely plenty more references.
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I will take a look at that when I can.
Of course a Jinn can be affected by an evil spirit since they are ordinary people in our communities.
Edit In fact I did now. It says the Jinns listened to Quran. They were Jinn humans in that passage. They perhaps became with faith after that.
Have faith
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SLM @Free minds,
IF Iblys () does not = 'Hybris' (ς and "its Seed/descendants" are not vices -- Then, What is Iblys and what are its Seed/descendants according to you?
... Lust, Greed, Sloth, Envy, Ire, ... etc, are actually the 'Seed of Iblys'
The reason why I'm raising this thread again is because I think we're overlooking a Qurnic tree-diagram ~ Iblys being the root/radix; while the descendants (=vices) being the seeds on the branches In my book, this Arbor vitiorum is none other than the (malicious) grh () that G-D cursed in the Qurn (1760) ...
What are your opinions?