Iblys and his Seed
-
I think Klein is right for following reasons. We know shaytan is also a loanword. Shaytan is directly imported from Hebrew. Shaytan in Hebrew is 'the accuser'. The two names are both loanwords - one directly imported from Hebrew. The other loan-translated to Greek as Diabolos and loaned to Arabic to be Iblis. . Most likely through Syriac, explaining the dropped "di".
"devil O.E. deofol "evil spirit," from L.L. diabolus, from Gk.
diabolos "accuser, slanderer" (scriptural loan-translation of Heb.
satan), from diaballein "to slander, attack," lit. "throw across,"
from dia- "across, through" + ballein "to throw."Peace
-
Didn't think so either.
I think Klein is right for following reasons. We know shaytan is also a loanword. Shaytan is directly imported from Hebrew. Shaytan in Hebrew is 'the accuser'. The two names are both loanwords - one directly imported from Hebrew. The other loan-translated to Greek as Diabolos and loaned to Arabic to be Iblis. . Most likely through Syriac, explaining the dropped "di".
Stop pretentiously parroting what others think!
Start using your own mind for a change. -
"The accuser" has a neutral connotation btw. "Hybris" has a negative connotation.
If we look at Quran Iblis will only be judged on the Last Day. It seems you have already judged Iblis before that time by switching an L to an R.
Peace
-
Didn't think so either.
Stop parroting what others think!
& start using your own mind to discern.It seems to me you have a problem with source references. If I don't use any source references you will say it's only my opinion. When I do add sources, you claim I'm parroting.
Peace
-
Both the Greek Dia + bolos and E + Beles may be related linguistically, but it does not say the root does not have a Semitic origin. These people in Semitic family of languages were once often ancestors far back when they spoke of Shem, Aram etc. Really way back. It was a purely tribal era back then.
And you do not get it, Shaytaan is not really a loan word because where from the word is derived they were once ancestors together with the ones who came to speak Arabic. Shaytaan is just an etymological offshoot. Both Shaytaan or Satan are derived from the same base letter siin/shiin, which may have had only one phonological sound first but Semitic dialects pronounced the word differently. Shiin was originally pronounced from one and the same letter without the later diacritical markers which were added to the language to distinguish a shiin sound.
The people of the Middle-East previously spoke more like one and the same language, especially in the Semitic branch.
Be well
-
Both the Greek Dia + bolos and E + Beles may be related linguistically, but it does not say the root does not have a Semitic origin. These people in Semitic family of languages were once often ancestors far back when they spoke of Shem, Aram etc. Really way back. It was a purely tribal era back then.
Again, read what I posted. Read and try to understand Satan is an original semitic (hebrew) word. Its occurrence in Arabic is a loanword from hebrew, a very old import. Iblis is not an old import. When you translate the semitic word satan to greek, you get diabolos. Diabolos was imported into syriac and from syriac into Arabic. This means diabolos is a much later import into the Arabic language. There is no semitic root to diabolos. Its roots are indo-european.
Both Iblis (diabolos) and Shaytan (satan) are older than Quran. These imports into Arab were not caused by the messenger of Quran, they predate it. It's interesting to ponder upon why Quran uses these two versions seperately. Semantically they have the same original meaning. I've tried to find out why this switch in label was made. If you place it in a chronology Iblis is no longer mentioned once Iblis gets cast out of the heavens. To me it denotes Iblis losing his rank of malaika, willingly.
Peace
-
Dia-ballein is the indo european root of diabolos (iblis). Literally "to throw apart", "to seperate".
Iblis is the one who seperates, throws apart, causes division. Reality as it manifests itself today started with the explosion of initial singularity, dividing what was once one. We perceive by discriminating. One could say Iblis refusal to sujud to Adam is what caused this reality to manifest itself.
Peace
-
Well obviously ebless and satan are words predate Quran as they are an integral part of the Arabic language, which existed also before Quran was written.
Ba-Lam-Seen is also used to speak of sorrow, and E'bless means " make sad/broken" similar to the dia + bolos, and the word has more than likely been used for millennia. Morphologically the word means just that so it is designed from a Semitic language style regard, meaning it is originating within its own language root without being a loan word, but the Greeks likely learned the word from Semitic exposure or it goes so far back that they shared it while it was still under the same language origin. It is arguable whether it is really meant to be a name in the passage of Quran, and the word occurs elsewhere in it.
Like I wrote. It is hard to track languages down several thousands years in time where you probably have to look to solve this dispute of which language originated in the other. But Ba-Lam-Siin has a convincing morphological root origin which suits the word and Quran uses the word to speak of a broken/shattered person, not much different than the divider you speak of from your indo-european word.
I doubt Satan is a loan word at all since when we talk about language which share the same origin and family root. They simply were ancestors. Long time ago Siin and Shiin where dialectical variations and Siin and Shiin were written the same way with no diacritical markers. This is why Arabs say Shaytaan or Hebrews say Shalom Aleikhem. If it was a loan word, the Arabs would also say Satan.
-
Dia-ballein is the indo european root of diabolos (iblis). Literally "to throw apart", "to seperate".
Iblis is the one who seperates, throws apart, causes division. Reality as it manifests itself today started with the explosion of initial singularity, dividing what was once one. We perceive by discriminating. One could say Iblis refusal to sujud to Adam is what caused this reality to manifest itself.
Peace
There is also the idea that Iblis comes from the root Balasa or something which means "He despaired", meaning that Satan lost hope or fell into despair, and may also mean that Satan causes the loss of hope or falling into despair, if the root is to be taken from the term Iblis. I do kind of prefer that version since it keeps to Semitic language roots rather than going into the other language family which is the idea that for some reason the Greek term Diabolos was used for his name, which is possible since the audience was often Christian and may have been using the term Iblis already.
-
?Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?? (Quran 2130)
In this sense I find diabolos highly revealing. When looking at the descriptions of creation, we have a verse speaking of separating heavens and earth. We have Iblis, the separator. The separator, who was of the Jinn, accuses the new creation of no loyalty to God.
Surely, Iblis was obeying Gods command by disobeying. His refusal was crucial to this entire creation. If I stick to an understanding of "he who causes despair", I can not find any good explanation of what caused this separation of the heavens and the earth.
This event of separation is referred to many times in Quran. If God had willed it, there was only one nation. There was only one faith. The separation, the scattering is Gods will.
Peace
-
?Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?? (Quran 2130)
In this sense I find diabolos highly revealing. When looking at the descriptions of creation, we have a verse speaking of separating heavens and earth. We have Iblis, the separator. The separator, who was of the Jinn, accuses the new creation of no loyalty to God.
Surely, Iblis was obeying Gods command by disobeying. His refusal was crucial to this entire creation. If I stick to an understanding of "he who causes despair", I can not find any good explanation of what caused this separation of the heavens and the earth.
This event of separation is referred to many times in Quran. If God had willed it, there was only one nation. There was only one faith. The separation, the scattering is Gods will.
Peace
You might be interested in the idea of Kronos from Greek Mythology then since that was the "Separator of the Heavens (Uranus) and the Earth (Gaia)"
-
That's a very good suggestion. Thanks!
The Yazidi faith is also very interesting concerning Iblis
The Yazidis are monotheists, believing in God as creator of the world, which he has placed under the care of seven holy beings or angels, the chief of whom is Melek Taus, the Peacock Angel. The Peacock Angel, as world-ruler, causes both good and bad to befall individuals, and this ambivalent character is reflected in myths of his own temporary fall from God's favor, before his remorseful tears extinguished the fires of his hellish prison and he was reconciled with God.
The Supreme God then created or manifested a vehicle for completing the creation of the universe. This was the first and greatest angel, Tawsi Melek, the Peacock Angel. Since Tawsi Melek embodied the power and wisdom of the Supreme God he was easily able to know and carry out His bidding. Six more Great Angels were then created to assist Tawsi Melek in his work.
Soon after the Earth was created it began to shake violently. Tawsi Melek was then dispatched to Earth to stop the planet?s quaking, as well as to endow it with beauty and abundance. When Tawsi Melek descended to Earth, he assumed the form of a glorious peacock ? a bird full of the seven primary and secondary colors. Landing in a place now known as Lalish, Tawsi Melek transferred his peacock colors to the Earth and endowed it with a rich flora and fauna.
Tawsi Melek then traveled to the Garden of Eden to meet Adam. The first human had been created without a soul, so Tawsi Melek blew the breath of life into him. He then turned Adam towards the Sun, symbol of the Supreme Creator, while stating that there was something greater than a human being and it should be worshipped regularly. Tawsi Melek then chanted a prayer for all humanity to daily repeat to the Creator, and he did so in the 72 languages that were going to be eventually spoken by the 72 countries and races that were destined to cover the Earth.
In the Yazidi faith this is what Melek Taus gives as motivation for his rejection of sujud to Adam
"How can I submit to another being! I am from your illumination while Adam is made of dust."
Peace
-
It seems to me you have a problem with source references.
If I don't use any source references you will say it's only my opinion.
When I do add sources, you claim I'm parroting.Let us not turn this into an undignified "they said, he said" debate!
If you wish for this discourse to continue in an impartial, productive and friendly manner (to examine the issue in question realistically), I expect you to provide constructive evidence for your claims. Otherwise, plz don't waste my time.
-
Do not seek the truth, ...
Try not to run from the Truth (like a fleeing ass)!
For he who seeks the Truth, is (knowingly or unknowingly) seeking G-D.... only cease to cherish your opinions.
All of them!?
Is that even possible!?
Is this why you let others do the math for you!?
I mean no disrespect dude, but frankly speaking,
I see no fundamental difference between your modus operandi and that of Sunnis, &c. of sheeple. -
The Truth, Al Haqq, is a name of God, anybody who seeks truth seeks God, it His name not anybody else's name.
Salaam
I like this very much!
Thanx -
The Truth, Al Haqq, is a name of God, anybody who seeks truth seeks God, it His name not anybody else's name.
Salaam
Truth the only Religion, Strategy the only Way
-
I see this thread has degraded into a debate over my signature. I'm utterly amazed.
My signature is a quote of Seng T'san, a patriarch of zen
The reason Seng-ts?an is saying not to seek is because truth, or reality, is not something objective. Truth is not something ?out there.? It is not something you will find as an object of perception or as a temporal experience. Reality is neither inside of you nor outside of you. Both ?outside? and ?inside? are not getting to the point. They both miss the mark because outside and inside are conceptual constructs with no inherent reality. They are simply abstract points of reference. Even words like ?you,? or ?me,? or ?I,? are nothing more than conceptual points of reference existing only in the mind. Such concepts may have a practical value in daily life, but when assumed to be true they distort perception and create a virtual reality, or what in the East is called the world of samsara.
Peace
-
I see this thread has degraded into a debate over my signature.
It wouldn't have "degraded" had you provided the Syriac word in question.
I'm utterly amazed.
What's truly disturbing is your defective propensity to blindly embrace other people's opinions and pretentiously uphold them (as if originally yours), instead of critically inspecting/verifying (all claims) and formulating/drawing your own (valid) conclusions !
My signature is a quote of Seng T'san, a patriarch of zen
The reason Seng-tsan is saying not to seek is because truth, or reality, is not something objective. Truth is not something out there. It is not something you will find as an object of perception or as a temporal experience. Reality is neither inside of you nor outside of you. Both outside and inside are not getting to the point. They both miss the mark because outside and inside are conceptual constructs with no inherent reality. They are simply abstract points of reference. Even words like you, or me, or I, are nothing more than conceptual points of reference existing only in the mind. Such concepts may have a practical value in daily life, but when assumed to be true they distort perception and create a virtual reality, or what in the East is called the world of samsara.
You're parroting again!
Is this supposed to be some kind of vindication!? -
It wouldn't have "degraded" had you provided the Syriac word in question.
What's truly disturbing is your defective propensity to blindly embrace other people's opinions and pretentiously uphold them (as if originally yours), instead of critically inspecting/verifying (all claims) and formulating/drawing your own (valid) conclusions !
You're parroting again!
Is this supposed to be some kind of vindication!?I don't know what is going on here but parrots are very Zen indeed.