Iblys and his Seed
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I'm telling you that 'Iblys' is 'Pride' itself!
Is this the mainstream "Quranist" idea? That Iblis was at some point an angel/herald of God? The Qur'an says pretty clearly he was a jinn in species, and never said he was definitely an angel at any point. I was just wondering if this is a common idea here that he was somehow an angel. The Bible also never really says he was an angel.
Qurnic Malak doesn't mean "angel" ...
& I'm not a "Qurnist"!
I'm a mslm nf. -
Is this the mainstream "Quranist" idea? That Iblis was at some point an angel/herald of God? The Qur'an says pretty clearly he was a jinn in species, and never said he was definitely an angel at any point. I was just wondering if this is a common idea here that he was somehow an angel. The Bible also never really says he was an angel.
Qurnic Malak doesn't mean "angel" ...
& I'm not a "Qurnist"!
I'm a mslm nf.Malak comes from a word meaning "messenger" which the word "angel" from the Greek aggellos also comes from, meaning "messenger" as a translation of the Semitic Malak and Malaika. Because angels are described as having certain qualities at times, they have long been considered non-human messengers, imagined often as a kind of species of their own.
"mslm nf" made me think of a runny nose, but that is a good thing to be indeed.
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Mind me, malek comes from the Arabic root miim-lam-kaf which literally means "one is capable" or "in control". It is used to signify king which is a ruler, i.e. in control.
If you are in control of yourself you are its malek.
Be well
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What is heaven? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just curious! I thought the events were taking place where Adam was, an area raised perhaps on the Earth, the jinn are said to be a creation created before mankind out of smokeless fire (plasma), whereas angels are multi limbed beings (perhaps like hindu art potentially, since the word used for "wings" is also used of Musa's hand) which are transformed variously.
Adam didn't appear to be in any supernatural realm but present in the material world. This is similar then to the Bible's account of Adam in the garden of Eden which was on Earth and then cast out of it.
Adam was made viceroy, a King on Earth, whereas the jinn race was older and may have felt that the right belongs to the elder creation and refused to show Adam respect, making the reason essentially racism "I am better than him, I am made of ___ and he is made of ___".
I've heard lots of people say Iblis is an angel though, but the Qur'an specifies at least the jinn is a particular species of material beings made out of what seems to be plasma gas rather than carbon matter like us, who were created before the human race was created.
To me heaven means in the vicinity of God. It requires a certain rank and praiseworthiness to reach that vicinity. It's a very complex story, the creation of Adam. I have contemplated on the chronology quite a bit. As I understand it, when God asks the mailaika to sujud for Adam, Adam is praiseworthy. In Gods vicinity, with the malaika. Only when Adam becomes ashamed he ends up in a physical world. The praiseworthiness is lost. Being in Gods vicinity impossible. As such the garden is a place in Gods vicinity. I doubt it can be physical. When Iblis is cast out, his name is mentioned no longer. Iblis suffers a quite similar fate as us. He will be judged on the Last Day just like any of us. He's given respite just like any of us. As such in this physical world there is no Adam. No perfect man. Neither is there Iblis. Only imperfect jinn.
Outside Quran Iblis is described as an Angel in the Book of Enoch. In the Yazidi faith he is also worshipped as an angel.
The chronology of jinn being older is correct. I should do some crosschecking to find out if Iblis was cast out before Adam.
Peace
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Iblees is from b-l-s, which in the Qur'an besides in the form Iblees also appears as
Verb (form IV) - to despair
(30124) yub'lisu will (be in) despair
Active participle (form IV)
(64420) mub'lisna (were) dumbfounded
(237712) mub'lisna (will be in) despair
(304910) lamub'lisna surely in despair
(43756) mub'lisna (will) despairOn the other hand, jinn means someone or something covered. Translated it would be the covered ones. So, the word jinn does not stand por a particular kind or species of things or beings, but rather for a condition, either permanent or accidental in which a being or a thing can be. Therefore in general and in the qur'an, many things can be covered and any person or animal can be covered.
Iblees we are told is covered and according to himself is made out of fire, what that means I would not dare to say, nor whether it is something physical or something allegorical. On the face of it, it gives the impression that whereas adam, al bashar, with the divine ruh is made of something gross, like earth, he is made of something sbtle like fire. Whereas earth suffers physically many cosntraints, fire does not. He seems to be speaking of his being of higher standing, higher qualities than adam. he seems to feel absolutely insulted by his having to postrate before a wrtch like that earthenware.
Was he an angel, it does say so, that angels were ordered to postrate and iblees did not want to comply. The question then would be what does it mean to be an angel, malak. A morphological study of the word should throw light. Bearing in mind the basic meaning of m-l-k, possess, we could say it might point to a very particular possession of God.Salaam
Salaam
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Salute @huruf
Iblees is from b-l-s, which in the Qur'an besides in the form Iblees also appears as
Verb (form IV) - to despair
(30124) yub'lisu will (be in) despairr
Active participle (form IV)
(64420) mub'lisna (were) dumbfounded
(237712) mub'lisna (will be in) despairr
(304910) lamub'lisna surely in despairr
(43756) mub'lisna (will) despairTo my discernment, the qurnic vb. bls () means to be stripped
designates a stripped, or deprived (person).Accordingly, the (original) denotation of QA Iblys () appears to be Depriver, or Deprivation!
Ps. Don't rely on Sunni thoughts!
...
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To make things complete, I think Iblis means the Accuser or Calumniator. Iblis is a corruption of the greek Diabolos.
Peace
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I doubt so. I think it is just a coincidence and you need the 'dia' from Diabolos to form the accurate word. Ebless misses an important phoneme.
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I very much doubt it is an arabic word originally.
The tendency among the Muslim authorities is to derive the name from http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47l.jpg to despair, he being so called because God caused him to despair of all good - so Raghib, Mufradat, 59) arid Tab. on ii, 32. The more acute philologers, however, recognized the impossibility of this (an-Nawswi, 13, and Zam. on xix, 57) says - http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47m.jpg,. Al-Jawaliqi Mu'arrab, 17, also justly argues against an Arabic derivation.
That the word is a corruption of tile Gk. http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47o.jpg has been recognized by the majority of Western scholars.5
Peace
1 In the Behistun inscription, see Speigel, Die altpersischen Keilinschriften, p. 205.
2 West, Glossary, 136; Bartholomae, AIW, 1749; and see Horn Grundiss, 141; Sayast, Glossary, p. 164; Shikand, Glossary, 265.
3 Lexicon Heptaglotton, p. 23. See Vullers, op. cit.; Lagarde, GA, 7; Horn, Grudiss, 141; but note Vollers,ZDMG, 1, 627.
4 Siddiqi, 69. On the ground of this change from a to i, Grimme, ZA, xxvi, 164, looks for S. Arabian influence, but there is nothing in favor of this.
5 Geiger, 100; von Kremer, Ideen, 226n; Fraenkel, Vocab, 24; Sprenger, Leben ii, 242; Wensinck, EI, ii, 351; Rudolph, Abh?ngigkeit, 35; Vollers, ZDMG, 1, 620; Sacco, Credenze, 61. However, Pautz, Offenbarung, 69, n. 3, and Eickman, Angelologie, 26, holds to an Arabic origin, though Sprenger, Leben, ii, 242 , n. 1, had pointed out that words of this form are as a rule foreign.
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It is hard to track its ultimate origin. I do not think it ends with Greek either but originates further back. An ancient lexicon says it is a Persian word (why perhaps they are found on Behistan inscriptions.
I think dia is part of the Greek grammatical formula much like the Semitic alif. Dia according to etymology means across while the Semitic alif has a relevancy as make/be done unto.
But likely has Middle-Eastern origin.
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Both Dia - Bolos and A - Bless have a similar meaning of manipulating someone. Alif + beles = make/do affected. It probably goes thousands of year back in time and untraceable down from a certain point. It is hard to say where is the origin of Ebless... BUT it is very important to pay attention to the fact that the root is used as a standard word elsewhere in Quran of speaking of being afflicted with something causing mental fatigue (which sorrow basically is). A'bless means to make someone sorrowful alike the Greek Diabolos which also speaks of burning someone down by slandering them, but originally is probably means to hurt someone mentally/spiritually.
Be well
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To make things complete, I think Iblis means the Accuser or Calumniator. Iblis is a corruption of the greek Diabolos.
I very much doubt it is an arabic word originally.
The tendency among the Muslim authorities is to derive the name from http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47l.jpg to despair, he being so called because God caused him to despair of all good - so Raghib, Mufradat, 59) arid Tab. on ii, 32. The more acute philologers, however, recognized the impossibility of this (an-Nawswi, 13, and Zam. on xix, 57) says - http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47m.jpg,. Al-Jawaliqi Mu'arrab, 17, also justly argues against an Arabic derivation.
That the word is a corruption of tile Gk. http//www.answering-islam.org/Books/Jeffery/Vocabulary/47o.jpg has been recognized by the majority of Western scholars.5
Peace
1 In the Behistun inscription, see Speigel, Die altpersischen Keilinschriften, p. 205.
2 West, Glossary, 136; Bartholomae, AIW, 1749; and see Horn Grundiss, 141; Sayast, Glossary, p. 164; Shikand, Glossary, 265.
3 Lexicon Heptaglotton, p. 23. See Vullers, op. cit.; Lagarde, GA, 7; Horn, Grudiss, 141; but note Vollers,ZDMG, 1, 627.
4 Siddiqi, 69. On the ground of this change from a to i, Grimme, ZA, xxvi, 164, looks for S. Arabian influence, but there is nothing in favor of this.
5 Geiger, 100; von Kremer, Ideen, 226n; Fraenkel, Vocab, 24; Sprenger, Leben ii, 242; Wensinck, EI, ii, 351; Rudolph, Abh?ngigkeit, 35; Vollers, ZDMG, 1, 620; Sacco, Credenze, 61. However, Pautz, Offenbarung, 69, n. 3, and Eickman, Angelologie, 26, holds to an Arabic origin, though Sprenger, Leben, ii, 242 , n. 1, had pointed out that words of this form are as a rule foreign.
Plz stop polluting this discussion with your subjective prejudice!
There is no etymological tie-in between em. iblys and Gr. di?bolos !
As already mentioned, the Aramean cognate of QA iblys () is ibrys (Galilean Aramaic )
Hence, Greek hybris (), not "" -
The tie-in is Syriac. The dia got lost by importation from Syriac. Since you know Syriac, you must understand why dia is easily ignored if a translator were to import from Syriac to Arabic.
Peace
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The tie-in is Syriac.
The dia got lost by importation from Syriac.You just refuse to get it, don't you!?
Since you know Syriac, you must understand why dia is easily ignored if a translator were to import from Syriac to Arabic.
Resorting to ad hominem won't make the things you say anymore valid.
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The dia getting lost while importing from Syriac to Arabic is not only to me, but to most Western scholars the most plausible thesis.
One of the reasons your thesis is weak is because it is not the same word. Hybris shares a common etymology, but from linguistic point of view the replacement of an L by an R has to be justified. HybRis is simply a different word, not mentioned in Quran.
bls is not brs
Peace
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The dia getting lost while importing from Syriac to Arabic is not only to me, but to most Western scholars the most plausible thesis. One of the reasons your thesis is weak is because it is not the same word. Hybris shares a common etymology, but from linguistic point of view the replacement of an L by an R has to be justified. HybRis is simply a different word, not mentioned in Quran. bls is not brs
Ad populum!
Nevertheless What Syriac word are you hinting at!? -
from Arabic Iblis. Klein thinks this may be Gk. diablos, passed
through Syriac where the first syllable was mistaken for the Syr.
gen.particle di and dropped.