Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited
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Mental illness and morals don't go together. You cannot be a mentally unstable individual yet claim to have morals. It would be like me claiming to have morals while believing any person who doesn't subscribe to my holy book will be tortured for eternity in hell. If you didn't live in or around the Middle East and hear about these holy books, you were lost from the get-go. The logic used by Abrahamic religions.
I've never seen such extreme arrogance with religion than these three religions who happened to be invented in the Middle East. Where were the morals when Christians were on killing spree in North America and wiped out the Natives? Where were the morals when Christians used to randomly accuse women of witchcraft and burn them alive in the streets? Where are the morals when Muslims hunt down kuffar and slice off the tips of their fingers and heads? Where were were the morals when Muslims and Christians were enslaving fellow humans based on their melanin? And where are the morals when Muslims, Jews and Christians discriminate based on your genitals?
You know what is considered immoral in Islam? The hair follicles on a woman's head. In Judaism, it's the foreskin you were born with and in Christianity, for touching yourself. I am fortunate to have male sex organs. I can have 4 wives and beat them if they disobey. That is morals in Islam.
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Hmmm but the Scriptures are not anyone's Holy Books, they are Messages, and Guidance from our Creator.
They weren't invented in the Middle East, but as the name suggests it is the middle of the "Towns"
So it spread from there during our recorded time because that is the region where the Prophet who called us Muslims lived. His offspring obviously populated this region and because of his covenant with the Most Gracious, Messengers rose from among them. These people were also selected for the task because of their knowledge among the worlds.But our Lord also says there are many messengers He did not relate to us, and that verily every nation has had their messenger.
Yes, people who claim to be monotheistic and only know conjecture about their HolyBooks and follow tradition and religious leaders, rather than trying to understand these Messages from themselves are responsible for the demise we see worldwide. But, true Believers are not with those who divide into sects in anything.
Allah tests us all with what He has given us, so He will judge in truth and with no injustice unto any of His servants. He knows what is in the breasts of the worlds.
That is perhaps why He also conveys in Quran that it does not matter whether you warn the disbelievers or do not warn them they won't believe.Arman this for you too (did you read what I recommended bro?)
Surah 2
Alif Laam Meem
That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and out of what We have provided them they spend.
And those who believe in what (is) sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and in the Hereafter they firmly believe.
Those (are) on Guidance from their Lord, and those - they (are) the successful ones.
Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.Allah knows the breasts of the worlds and perhaps will judge according to what you and I have no knowledge about, so be patient and stand firm and call to deen of your Lord
Another important fact is that after the advent of the last Scripture in regards today, who really has an excuse about not having heard about the Qu'ran.
Anyway those who will believe will believe and those who will disbelieve will disbelieve whether they are the very parents, siblings, offspring of the messengers themselves or somebody deep in the rainforest or in Papa Guinea "Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe."
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Atheism is a belief in itself. It's the naive belief science has or can answer all questions. You can't be mu'min and remove God from the equation.
Atheism is the lack of belief in Gods. It has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting science, let alone claiming that science can answer all questions. There are atheists who believe in after life, astrology, homeopathy, spirits, ghosts, flat earth, etc. A skeptical atheist, by his/her very nature, will take science more seriously. But that's a skeptical atheist we are talking about. Much like talking about a sporty Muslim. Just because a Muslim takes a lot of interest in Sports, you cannot conclude that Islam is the belief in sports. That'd be a pretty ignorant thing to conclude. The only thing you can conclude about an atheist is that they lack belief in Gods.
Peace
----------------- Student of Allah -
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What I am saying is that I am not convinced of that magical monkey OR YOUR GOD farting the universe out in whatever manner seemed fit to them. I will believe one over the other only after evidence comes to me.
Bias bred from Hatred
= Blindness
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Yes of course there is No Faith without God ? fully agreed.
Similarly I can argue there is no Chocolate without Cocoa beans. You cannot have chocolate and remove cocoa beans from the equation.
However, the knowledge that Chocolate comes from Cocoa beans is not or should not be necessary for one to enjoy Chocolate.
Similarly, the knowledge / understanding / belief that our conviction to uphold our conscience and intellect is essentially nothing but faith in ?God? who gifted us those senses is not or should not be necessary for one to enjoy the benefits from his faith (conviction to uphold our inherent sense of right and wrong).
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanDear Arman,
If those atheists can not see that there is such a thing that creates the universe, then to hell is their destination. No need to make an excuse for them. Doing good for the sake of goodness while clearly denying the existence of God as creator is bad.
personified or not is not a big thing. The big thing is whether they believe God's existence and characteristics or not. But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure
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Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Atheism is the lack of belief in Gods. It has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting science, let alone claiming that science can answer all questions. There are atheists who believe in after life, astrology, homeopathy, spirits, ghosts, flat earth, etc. A skeptical atheist, by his/her very nature, will take science more seriously. But that's a skeptical atheist we are talking about. Much like talking about a sporty Muslim. Just because a Muslim takes a lot of interest in Sports, you cannot conclude that Islam is the belief in sports. That'd be a pretty ignorant thing to conclude. The only thing you can conclude about an atheist is that they lack belief in Gods.
Peace
----------------- Student of Allahno no religion is science the bible starts with a creation theory, to be a muslim or a christian you must believe this creation theory genesis chapter one this is science happening religion is 100% based on science, or it would not be believable to anyone
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Arman this for you too (did you read what I recommended bro?)
Surah 2
Alif Laam Meem
That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and out of what We have provided them they spend.
And those who believe in what (is) sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and in the Hereafter they firmly believe.
Those (are) on Guidance from their Lord, and those - they (are) the successful ones.
Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.Allah knows the breasts of the worlds and perhaps will judge according to what you and I have no knowledge about, so be patient and stand firm and call to deen of your Lord
Peace HP_TECH. Welcome back to discussion of Qur'an then.
Alhamdulillah, I am a fellow student of Surah 2. May Allah improve our understanding.
The verses you are quoting describe a person who is a Muttaqui (Conscious / God-conscious). I do agree that to be a Muttaqui one needs to believe in God and needs to be convinced about afterlife (akhirat) and also have faith in the message brought forth by the messengers. The Muttaqui (Conscious / God-conscious) are the ones who are guided by our Master and they are the successful ones.
Being a Muttaqui is a sufficient condition for salvation. That does not mean whoever is not muttaqui is a failure or they are doomed to hell.
The minimum condition or necessary condition for salvation are outlined in verses like 262.
There is a room between the necessary condition and the sufficient condition ? and my understanding is that a person even without the explicit belief in God and the Holy Books can still at least theoretically meet the necessary conditions as long as he demonstrates faith in God (by accepting that the life has a purpose and to uphold the sanctity of the common foundation of all that exist they put righteousness to all above their individual interest), faith in the last day (by accepting accountability of each of their actions ? both open and secret) and by acting righteously based on such faith.
The difference between a Muttaqui and a non- Muttaqui is like two travelers through a rough dessert ? the Muttaqui has the compass, the map, has clear idea where the next town is and has the necessary supplies to get to the next town; whereas, the non- Muttaqui is a wonderer who has no clue where he is going, but just following the routes of the caravans with the hope that he will end up in some town before his supplies run out. It cannot be said that the second traveler will be lost and dead, but definitely he runs a much higher risk of deviation and failure.
Another important fact is that after the advent of the last Scripture in regards today, who really has an excuse about not having heard about the Qu'ran.
There are numerous sects and religions in the world - each of whom claim to have the last / best / most accurate message. Do you claim you have studied them all? Have you, for example, studied the teachings of Guru Nanak who preached the Shikhism religion, or about the Zainism religion? If you haven't, then who gives you the right to question the position of those who have heard about Qur'an but not been interested to study it? Especially since the flag-bearers of "Institutionalized Islam" are not putting up glaring examples of righteousness anyway?
Anyway those who will believe will believe and those who will disbelieve will disbelieve whether they are the very parents, siblings, offspring of the messengers themselves or somebody deep in the rainforest or in Papa Guinea "Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe."
You continue to be hell-bent on assigning the meanings ?believing? (as in accepting a hypothesis to be true) and ?disbelieving? (refusing to accept a hypothesis to be true) to the Qur?anic terms iman and kufr. Until we clarify this point there is no way our discussion can move productively. There are many verses in Qur?an which demonstrate that iman does not mean believing. Let me just get started with seeking your specific views on a couple of verses
Case 1
26 Indeed those who - it is same for them whether you warn them or don?t warn them, they won?t .
How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?
Case 2
2100 And when they made a covenant didn?t a group of them throw it away? No! Most of them do not .
If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?
If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Dear Arman,
If those atheists can not see that there is such a thing that creates the universe, then to hell is their destination. No need to make an excuse for them. Doing good for the sake of goodness while clearly denying the existence of God as creator is bad.
personified or not is not a big thing. The big thing is whether they believe God's existence and characteristics or not. But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure
Salam alihawa.
You are entitled to have your opinion.
I guess the only question to which you would expect my response is ?But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure.?
I am not so sure, though. Yes, those who are misled in their thinking are misled for their own peril. It is indeed their problem. But in some ways it is also our problem. Our problem is how we define our attitude and our behavior towards them.
If one subscribes to extemist ideologies (ISIL and gong) ? people who are misled in their thinking about God create ?opportunity? for the so called ?Muslims? to take their daughters as slaves and take their wealth as war-booty. IT IS OUR PROBLEM to decide whether Qur?an really tells that all who do not ?BELIEVE? in God are kafirs and thereby at constant war with Muslims, or otherwise. We as a community need to sort out this problem first before we preach others about religious tolerance and diversity. And that is why it is so fundamental to understand what is ?Faith? ? is it believing in some dogmas or is it acceptance of some principles. To me it is clearly the second. Hope you find your own answer, soon.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
Shalom Aleikhem,
@Arman An interesting post and perspective indeed. I'd like to know further about your thoughts on the issue.
Peace.
Just in case you are not relating... we did have a long discussion on these understandings here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607279.msg364854#msg364854
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To me Faith (Iman) is a moral obligation of acceptance of certain principles. It is the moral obligation to accept that everything that exists in this universe exists upon a common platform and hence we must be "righteous" towards others. Otherwise we are violating our obligation to that "Commonness".
To me Faith is NOT an "intellectual obligation" to believe in a dogma/theory.
When "atheism" is strictly the result of an intellectual pursuit.. based on an objective scrutiny of the observable universe, such intellectual conclusion can coexist with the moral obligation of FAITH. But those to whom atheism is more than an intellectual conclusion, rather it is the cherished license to contravene the moral obligation of acting righteously, a license to silence the conscience as and when needed - such an atheism is indeed tantamount to faith repression (kufr). They are those ones, it doesn't matter you warn them or don't, they won't have faith.
For you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Regards,
Arman -
The heavens, the earth, the luminaries ... andor our existence cannot be explained without G-D, The Transcendent Creator/Appointer/Lawmaker. The Owner of us.
In order to sustain the belief that no G-D exists, Atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge. Because their declaration is tantamount to saying "I have infinite knowledge that no one with infinite knowledge exists" !
http//www.conservapedia.com/images/thumb/6/6c/Raphael.jpg/200px-Raphael.jpg
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Assalamu Alaykum all,
I just thought I would post this video clip for anyone who hasn't seen it. Here are two sheikhs from the Gulf debating this exact question, and the answer may surprise you.
Can Atheists Go To Heaven In Islam? A Surprising Answer!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj3JrYLYCQ8Salaam
Clash.
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2246
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Bias bred from Hatred
= Blindness
Shalom Aleikhem,
Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!
May peace be with you
----------------------------- Student of Allah
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Yes, why bother explaining why I am wrong
when you can basically call me names and pat yourself on the back!Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away !
Like e.g., here /Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? plz don't lie against me !
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Whenever i do (address your fallacies), you run away ! E.g., here.
Why bother then ?!?
Ps. I didn't "call you names" ? Don't lie /
I did not run away. You have to realize that I don't hang around this forum as much as I used to. Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true? Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything. I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape. Not to mention that all the interlocking mathematical models we have of planets (including earth) will have to be discarded despite them having predictive power. (best of luck trying to convince people to throw away all that working model too )
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work? The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true. None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal. It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
P.S. Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
------------ Student of Allah
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I apologize to the creator of the tread for the off topic rant. D Will try not to do that agian.
-------- Student of Allah
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I did not run away.
If you say so !
Plus, you do realize that to accept your beliefs about flat earth, one has to throw away the bulk of humanity's knowledge that has been repetitively verified to be true?
You mean the bulk of misinfo, acquired through indoctrination.
Aye, to accept that Earth is in fact planate (instead of rotund) one has to stop erroneously appealing to the majority and throw away that which they forced down his/her throat during childhood/gullibility, to realize - through independent, objective enquiry - that his/her inherited "spinning/whirling ball" bubble has no basis in Reality.
Real eyes, realize, real lies.
Everything you said there relies on me to first discard everything we know about options, radioactivity, general theory of relativity, Newtonian laws/motion, how planets are formed, how gravity works, how oceans work, virtually everything.
Your "theories" can't prove Earth's alleged motions !
Why contradict the truth and believe that Earth moves, then ?!
I didn't even ask you difficult questions like explaining why under the VERIFIED models of gravity we have, planets are meant to be spheroids once they have certain mass and your planet has a flat shape.
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There's no such a thing as "gravity" on Earth ~ Try Density.
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What makes you think Earth is a so-called "planet" ?! <- this is an assumption ! A preconceived notion.
I ask you questions and you answer with things like
"and why would that be?"
Contextomy !
You seem to think that refusing to address a question asked and simply linking to a non-scientific conspiracy related website is good enough of an answer. For example, I'm assuming that you have to discard everything we know about the sun's solar activities, radioactivity, nuclear process, size, distance, to make your model work?
Disregard everything we know ?! ? Nop !
Only Falsehood (aka. PSEUDO-science)
The least you can do is publish a paper where you lay out YOUR new equations for how all these work and we should be able to test them and give you your nobel prize. Or are you not interested in that at all?
Equations mean nothing if they can't represent Reality.
It is impossible to have a discussion on that topic if your first requirement is that I get rid of 99% of what we have established to be true.
You need to differentiate between theories and facts.
None of the thing you ever link to while trying to answer any damn question ever goes back to any damn reputable scientific journal.
I presented you with a clear and stable RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the leading Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for discerning earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !
You couldn't even address this one single argument /
Whatever happened to your "equations" !
It always goes back to conspiracy theory sites. It's like people talking about how the world rests on the back of an invisible infinite series of turtles that we cannot test. Yes, we have to throw away all of known science for that to make sense, but why would we bother with such a hypothesis in the first place? My biggest problem with the thing is that why don't you submit your model of how things work in a good scientific journal and have them peer reviewed and tested? I'm more than sure that it'll land you a Nobel prize.
Meaningless words.
Saying that people have useless eyes because their minds are blind is name calling. You're calling me mentally deficient and impaired. Which I have no problem with as long as you EXPLAIN why.
I didn't say that ALL people have useless eyes !
Just those with a blind mind.Salute.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
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This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
Thanks for the compliments sister, but my post was never meant to encourage anyone to non-belief. My only contention was as believers in Qur?an how should we view or deal with the people who do not believe in God or a personified God. And my conclusion was that ? as long as they come to us in peace ? we are not authorized to question their faith (iman) because faith (Iman) is supposed to operate at a moral level, not an intellectual level. But unlike you I continue to be a vocal believer. I am trying my best to be a conscious person (Muttaqui) as Qur?an recommends and would always recommend that as the even path. Perhaps I conceptualize and explain the commonness that binds everything in existance in a mutual obligation of righteousness (whom I happen to call God) in a way different from a Buddhist / Hindu / Atheist, but - that common Foundation of everything in existence (God) is my Master and your Master, so let?s be slave to Him by upholding the intellect and conscience that He has given us ? that is the straight way.
Regards,
Arman -
This post by bro Arman has so far been one of the most insightful and amazing work here in Freeminds.So i just really want to thank you.I have been recently having the issue of not referring to Allah/Creator/The supreme Energy with everything i do as i used to do at the initial development of my faith.So i started doubting the strength of my conviction.Was i forgetting the one who created me?But my morality and intellect are now clearer and and my principles stronger.So it seems i have been under the guidance and essence of the Creator without my consciousness )(i shouldn't be the judge of my own goodness,sounds narcissistic /)Iam no longer a very vocal believer and after reading this post iam not worried about it. ) Salam and thanx again.
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting? -
I have not finished my response to you yet, as I want it to be an elaborate though out response if my Lord so wills.
But do you see now, what your rhetoric is supporting?I do and I did clarify where I deemed necessary.
I have not an atom of regret if my " rhetoric " prompted anyone to question one's beliefs. Belief (janna) turns into conviction (yakeen) only through questioning and contemplating - and to get there one needs the freedom of mental space to do the questioning in the first place. Bullying one's mind with sacred unquestionable beliefs pushed down the throat takes away that freedom and potentially leads to fanaticism.
May Allah guide us all to the straight way.
Regards,
Arman