Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited

[Sadia_Afrin]

Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.

[HP_TECH]

Salam,I think i failed to explain myself..again.Words always seem to fail me.As we all understand being a believer or a person who holds faith,one needs to have a complete view,i think the arabic for it is "al baseera" or something.In my mere opinion there is no definite,concrete definition of who is a believer and its futile to even try to confine it in the definition of a language.

Wrong and if you'll be patient I will da-ra-ba what the Quran conveys if Allah so wills clearly

[Sadia_Afrin]

salam HP_Tech bro O0 the prime reason to join Freeminds was to listen learn and reconsider tempt.Do share your take on the matter

[HP_TECH]

Peace Arman

Being a Muttaqui is a sufficient condition for salvation. That does not mean whoever is not muttaqui is a failure or they are doomed to hell.

Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.

The minimum condition or necessary condition for salvation are outlined in verses like 262.

262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.

Although a counter to your misunderstanding of 262 is 2217

Indeed, those who have believed, and those who were Jews and the Sabians and the Christians and the Majus, and those who (are) polytheists indeed, Allah will judge between them (on) the Day (of) the Resurrection. Indeed, Allah over every thing (is) a Witness.

Are these necessary conditions or are they names being listed? No group is automatically exempt from punishment, everyone will be judged, even the prophets fear the judgement.
How can becoming Jew, Nazarene or Sabian be a necessary condition for salvation?
You are somewhat confused.

Again there is no such thing as minimum condition. Where do you read that in the Quran? It is your invention. Beware of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge about.

There is a room between the necessary condition and the sufficient condition ? and my understanding is that a person even without the explicit belief in God and the Holy Books can still at least theoretically meet the necessary conditions as long as he demonstrates faith in God (by accepting that the life has a purpose and to uphold the sanctity of the common foundation of all that exist they put righteousness to all above their individual interest), faith in the last day (by accepting accountability of each of their actions ? both open and secret) and by acting righteously based on such faith.

More conjecture. Quran thoroughly contradicts what you say. It is illogical to assume that one can pass the test, without believing in God and His Holy Books. That is paradoxical. Your argument holds no water. Is illogical.

The difference between a Muttaqui and a non- Muttaqui is like two travelers through a rough dessert ? the Muttaqui has the compass, the map, has clear idea where the next town is and has the necessary supplies to get to the next town; whereas, the non- Muttaqui is a wonderer who has no clue where he is going, but just following the routes of the caravans with the hope that he will end up in some town before his supplies run out. It cannot be said that the second traveler will be lost and dead, but definitely he runs a much higher risk of deviation and failure.

Stop. Do not try to make your own examples.

You think humans are self-sufficient, that is part of your ploy. You think a traveler is able to navigate alone through the desert without guidance or Help from Allah.

Allah gives the perfect examples.
2439 But those who disbelieve, their deeds (are) like a mirage in a lowland, thinks it the thirsty one (to be) water, until when he comes to it, not he finds it (to be) anything, but he finds Allah before him, He will pay him in full his due. And Allah (is) swift (in) the account.

1045 And the Day He will gather them, as if they had not remained except an hour of the day, they will recognize each other between them. Certainly, (will have) lost those who denied the meeting (with) Allah, and not they were the guided ones.

There is no guidance without Allah, one cannot randomly by themselves arrive to the destination if they are not guided by the Most High. The Quran stresses this.

There are numerous sects and religions in the world - each of whom claim to have the last / best / most accurate message. Do you claim you have studied them all? Have you, for example, studied the teachings of Guru Nanak who preached the Shikhism religion, or about the Zainism religion? If you haven't, then who gives you the right to question the position of those who have heard about Qur'an but not been interested to study it? Especially since the flag-bearers of "Institutionalized Islam" are not putting up glaring examples of righteousness anyway?

Going off-topic. I have no interest in other false religions. I follow the guidance from Allah. Should I take up your challenge and turn my back on the Book for the falsehood?

You continue to be hell-bent on assigning the meanings ?believing? (as in accepting a hypothesis to be true) and ?disbelieving? (refusing to accept a hypothesis to be true) to the Qur?anic terms iman and kufr. Until we clarify this point there is no way our discussion can move productively. There are many verses in Qur?an which demonstrate that iman does not mean believing. Let me just get started with seeking your specific views on a couple of verses

I am not hell-anything. You are the one who is bent upon denying the meanings of iman and kufr.
There is nothing to clarify believing and disbelieving make perfect sense. Why did you not address the issue by showing us how you arrive at your left-field translations.

PRL, and many lexicons convey believing and disbelieving( concealment of belief/faith)

You?re the one challenging logic, you should at least provide your methodology. There is no evidence for your interpretation in the Quran whatsoever.

Case 1

26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.

How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?

Just like that

It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?

These translations are supported by logic, concordance, lexicons, root-meanings and context within Quran. And Yours?
Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?

It does not matter whether those who disbelieve are warned or not because just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth no matter what you tell them.

Case 2

2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.

If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?

Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.

2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.

Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.

Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.

240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .

It seems like you do not understand that following your own desire, or not believing in the Hereafter with certainty and that you will return to Allah is associating partners.
You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
BEWARE of saying about Allah that which you have no knowledge of Arman.

Here is what Allah conveys

4150
And verily, if We let him mercy from Us after an adversity (has) touched him, he will surely say, "This (is) (due) to me and not I think the Hour (will be) established, and if I am returned to my Lord, indeed, for me with Him (will be) the best." But We will surely inform those who disbelieved about what they did, and We will surely make them of a punishment severe.

1836-42
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
And why (did you) not, when you entered your garden say, "What Allah wills; (there is) no power except with Allah." If you see me lesser than you (in) wealth and children,
It may be that my Lord will give me better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, then it will become ground slippery,
Or will become, its water, sunken, so never you will be able to find it."
And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, ?Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone.?

Look at this example. This man is just like the examples you are bent upon giving, one who is not certain in the Hereafter. Look what his companion says about him and what this man says about himself in the end. Not believing in the Day of Account is equivalent to associating partners hence being a polytheist. What is the recompense of the polytheist? Fire.
What is the recompense of those who lead the people astray unknowingly?
You should read upon it, because that is what your guilty of.
If you repent Allah is All-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.

If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.

I rely on Allah to guide me.
But it seems like you know me more than myself. Who do I rely on, what self-proclaimed scholars do I rely on?
So judgmental towards one who believes, furthermore you call me delusional?
You assume that those who believe in any mumbo jumbo are on something while me who are only conveying to you what is in the Book clear is delusional.
You sound familiar.
We will see tomorrow who is the deluded fool.
Have you inherited it from those before? Nay perhaps you too are a transgressing people.

You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door, you should with all haste take your own advice and quit, because as we have seen you are influencing others to believe they can be saved without faith and belief in God, His Books, His Messengers and the Meeting of the Hereafter.
Your deductions and ridiculous translations with no logical support prove you are in need to truly take your time and study over again. Repetition will make no difference if your heart is the same. Turn in humility.

Regards,
Herman

PS

3335 is a better example than 262 yet these are not conditions, they are qualities attributes.

If you?d like to clarify then define these with Quran, context and lexicons

muslimina- those who submit
qanitina- obedient
sadiqina- truthful
sabirina- patient
khashi ?ina- humble
mtasadiqina- those who give charity

The mu?minun and disbelievers are like night and day

mu?minina -believer/trustor/faithful/ (submissive)
muqinina

muttaqin -one who guards against evil
salihina -peacemaker, reformer
al-abrara -trustworthy, pious, honest, beneficent, truthful, gentle, kind
amiluna -
sabiquna -foremost

mushrikina - polytheists( those who associate partners) not believing in the Hereafter and returning to Allah for judgement is itself an association example is surah

munafiqina -hypocrites
kafiruna - disbelievers

One of the problems you and many other face is that you want to define terms in a solid fashion. Meaning that the definition should fit universally in every scenario.
But you have to understand that depending on context the same word might differ in meaning.
Look at 4028 for example This man had faith but concealed it. Is that not what you define as kafaroo? Obviously that is not what is being conveyed in this example. This man had faith but had to hide it for fear of Firaun.
This is a different type of concealment of faith right?
Hence you cannot simply generalize the meaning of a word and try to address the examples in the Quran in such matter, it is a case-by-case-contextual approach that will result in correct understanding as in the above example.

5713-29 Emphasize on 16-19
5716-19
Has not come (the) time for those who believed that become humble their hearts at (the) remembrance (of) Allah and what has come down of the truth? And not they become like those who were given the Book before, (and) was prolonged for them the term, so hardened their hearts; and many of them (are) defiantly disobedient.
Know that Allah gives life (to) the earth after its death. Indeed, We have made clear to you the Signs so that you may understand.
Indeed, the men who give charity and the women who give charity, and who lend (to) Allah a loan goodly, it will be multiplied for them, and for them (is) a reward noble.
And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they (are) the truthful and the martyrs, (are) with their Lord. For them (is) their reward and their light. But those who disbelieve and deny Our Verses, those (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.

3965 And verily, it has been revealed to you and to those who (were) before you, if you associate (with Allah) surely, will become worthless your deeds and you will surely be among the losers.

Remember disbelieving in Allah is associating partners, we have seen this with the example of the two companions and the garden.

2217 They ask you about the month sacred - (concerning) fighting in it. Say, "Fighting therein (is) a great (sin); but hindering (people) from (the) way (of) Allah, and disbelief in Him and (preventing access to) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, and driving out its people from it, (is) greater (sin) near Allah. And oppression (is) greater than killing." And not they will cease (to) fight with you until they turn you away from your religion, if they are able. And whoever turns away among you from his religion, then dies while he (is) a disbeliever for those became worthless their deeds in the world and the Hereafter. And those (are) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever.

917 (It) is not for the polytheists that they maintain (the) masajid of Allah (while) witnessing against themselves disbelief. (For) those, worthless (are) their deeds, and in the Fire they (will) abide forever.

969 Like those before you they were mightier than you (in) strength, and more abundant (in) wealth and children. So they enjoyed their portion, and you have enjoyed your portion like enjoyed those before you their portion, and you indulge like the one who indulges (in idle talk). Those, worthless, (are) their deeds in the world and (in) the Hereafter. And those, they (are) the losers.

471 Those who disbelieve and turn away from (the) way of Allah, He will cause to be lost their deeds.
478 But those who disbelieve, destruction (is) for them, and He will cause to be lost their deeds.
4733 O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and (do) not make vain your deeds.

The deeds of those who disbelieve will be rended vain, despite of your conjecture and assumption.

The reward is only for the workers who believe.

Basically please re-read all of chapter 40 and 64

Only 2 kinds of people a believer and disbeliever. You propose there are grey areas while your Lord shows it is black and white.

642
He (is) the One Who created you and among you (is) a disbeliever and among you (is) a believer. And Allah of what you do (is) All-Seer.

[Man_of_Faith]

HP_TECH,

In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.

(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)

[Armanaziz]

Peace.

Where in the Quran do yo read that? Bring your proof. This is from your mouth not the Quran. There is no evidence for what you propose. Furthermore what are you defining muttaqin as?
Many terms have been translated as righteous muttaqin, salihina and abrara. A careful look at these terms will reveal that each convey a specific meaning. Though all of them have been simplified as righteous. Muttaqin really conveys one who guards/protects against evil (wards off evil).
Show me an ayaat which supports your claim. If not accept you are conjecturing.

262 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

First of all let me clarify 262. It is a statement found throughout the entire Quran that, those who believe among the people and work deeds of righteousness will have their reward.
Furthermore, take a look at the ayaat with sincerity. The word believed is used twice. There are those who believed and then there are some among those People of the Scripture who also believed, which we know to be true, because Allah had guided some of the people from these groups when they were firm on their Books and supported their messengers, so whichever among those persevered and kept faith they will have their reward and perhaps those who repent will receive Mercy from their Lord if He so wills.

The definition of a Muttaqui / Conscious

22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.

23 Those who have put faith in the unobservable and establish the salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.

24 And those who have put faith in what is sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and of the hereafter they are convinced.

25 They are the ones - on guidance from their Master; and they are the ones ? who are successful.

Per above a muttaqui is defined to have five characteristics

i) They put faith in the unobservable (as opposed to being arrogant that all you can see is all there is.)
ii) They establish salaat (this I understand as establishing reverence for God with appropriate ritual and behavioral expression.)
iii) They spend from what Allah provided them (This emphasizes purity of earning and charity) and
iv) They put faith in the messages brought forth by the messengers
v) They are convinced about the hereafter.

On the other hand the minimum conditions for salvation are outlined in 262

262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

The minimum criteria for salvation per the above are 3

i) They put faith in Allah
ii) They put faith in the Last day
iii) They act righteously.

A careful and logical reading of the above verses clearly reveals that the minimum criteria (as in 262) is a subset of criteria of being a Muttaqui. For example, putting faith in the messengers or the angels or the books have not been highlighted in the minimum criteria (262). The minimum criteria is reconfirmed several times in Qur?an including ? 4124, 569. It is obvious from these verses that putting faith in the messengers and holy books is not included in the minimum criteria for salvation. The resulting logical conclusion is that the taqwa (which includes faith in messengers and books) is not the necessary minimum condition, rather it is the recommended sufficient condition, or recommended path towards salvation.

Now, a closer look at the 2 cases I presented to support my understanding of iman and kufr

Case 1

26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.

How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?

Your Response

Just like that

It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?

My Response

Instead of critically looking at the verse and pondering what Qur?an is saying, you are being stubborn on sticking to your understanding. This is not a logical response to the question presented.

Case 2

2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.

If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?

Your Response

Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.

2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.

Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.

Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.

240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .

My Response

Covenant with humans or God irrespective ? the verse implies that breaking of covenant is an indication that a person does not have Iman (faith). Accepting Iman as believing does not add up. People who ?believe? in Allah can still break covenants with Allah and Mankind. So did Iblis?and many of the people of the book from the past.

Furthermore reading this as covenant with God makes it even more obvious that amana cannot be believing. How can you hold one accountable for a covenant with someone whom one does not even believe to exist?

---

I have given the necessary clarifications to my posts. With deep regret I find that you repeatedly engaged in derogatory personal attacks in your post. For example

1. ? that is part of your ploy.
2. Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?
3. ?just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth?
4. ?have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
5. You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
6. You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door

I have no intention to divulge into name calling ? if I do not see remarkable improvement in tone and a sincere will to discuss in civil manner? I will refrain from responding to your further posts.

For you is your resolution, for me is mine.

Regards,
Arman

P.S. Translations from Qur'an above are my personal translations. If there is any specific criticism to my translation with regards to any word or phrase - I welcome that and consider that as a learning opportunity.

[HP_TECH]

HP_TECH,

In your sectarian interpretation of Quran there are actually passages that say anyone who believes and does righteous deeds will reach Heaven.

(Even if that interpretation is not even remotely attached to reality)

My sectarian interpretation? I have no relation with those who divide themselves into sects like yourself Amenuel. You follow your own desire and your interpretations are shunned by everyone. You are the sectarian, wake up...

You are delude Amenuel.

These are literal word for word translation almost identical to the translation from free-minds. Are free-minds sectarians?

I use lexicons and context within Quran to assert the probability of correctness of a certain translation/interpretation, while both you and Arman still have to explain to the rest of us how in the world yo arrive at your interpretation.

Amenuel, you particularly are pathetic, because I have asked you again and again to bring your proofs but you never do. You always resurface with 2 liners that show your desires for argumentation, but at the first sight of challenge to your views you take off like Bolt.
You have barely ever even cited relevant ayaats in your argument or how the lexicons you use demonstrate your interpretation.

Just sit down and be quiet, please

You have no business speaking about translation or interpretation nor sectarianism. You started your own religion for crying out loud and you are your own prophet and we are according to you all deluded bravo

Just sit down nope

By the way. We are all aware that those who believe and do righteous deeds will have their reward, if you would have taken your time to read my post, you would have actually seen that I have stated that.
The thing you and Arman are failing to realize is that this belief encompasses belief in Allah, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books and the Last Day and the righteous deeds encompass salat and zakat.

Again you are lying because there is in the Quran any evidence that there is a minimum necessary.

You still have to cite any support from the Quran, it is just your mouths that are talking.

[HP_TECH]

Peace.

The definition of a Muttaqui / Conscious

22 That is the book - no doubt in it ? a guidance for the conscious.

23 Those who have put faith in the unobservable and establish the salaat and out of what We provided them ? they spend.

24 And those who have put faith in what is sent down to you and what was sent down from before you and of the hereafter they are convinced.

25 They are the ones - on guidance from their Master; and they are the ones ? who are successful.

Per above a muttaqui is defined to have five characteristics

i) They put faith in the unobservable (as opposed to being arrogant that all you can see is all there is.)
ii) They establish salaat (this I understand as establishing reverence for God with appropriate ritual and behavioral expression.)
iii) They spend from what Allah provided them (This emphasizes purity of earning and charity) and
iv) They put faith in the messages brought forth by the messengers
v) They are convinced about the hereafter.

Emphasis on "per above", because I am sure the Quran gives more descriptions about mutaqqin in other ayaats.
You cannot expect to grasp the entirety of this term from one ayaat.

On the other hand the minimum conditions for salvation are outlined in 262

I disagree, because there is no such indication of any minimum conditions. It is a foreign concept in the Quran.
There is no minimum condition for salvation. It is something you have come up with. Which is why I am sticking to my understanding. Can you prove with citations from the Quran where it explicitly conveys there is such a thing as a minimum condition for salvation. In other words where in Quran do you read minimum condition?
You won?t find that. Until you do, you cannot make such a claim.

262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

The minimum criteria for salvation per the above are 3

i) They put faith in Allah
ii) They put faith in the Last day
iii) They act righteously.

Arman, nowhere does it say that those are minimum.
Furthermore, how can you arbitrarily decide that putting faith in Allah does not convey putting faith in His Words and by default His Messengers.
It is a bit unfair for you to separate those from i).
One can argue that when it comes to ii) if one puts faith in the Last day by default they are acknowledging The Books which warn about it, and the Messengers who warn about it.
iii) Same argument is permissible for acting righteously, one acts righteously by acknowledging EVERYTHING authorized by Allah

So you see excluding Books and Messengers and Maliki is truly arbitrary as i), ii) and iii) are all overlapping and encompass each other.

Example if one puts faith in the Messengers of Allah then he is by default acknowledging that the Messengers were sent with a Message authorized by Allah and hence, acknowledge their Lord and contents in the Message about the Last Day and thereby are acting righteously.

A careful and logical reading of the above verses clearly reveals that the minimum criteria (as in 262) is a subset of criteria of being a Muttaqui. For example, putting faith in the messengers or the angels or the books have not been highlighted in the minimum criteria (262). The minimum criteria is reconfirmed several times in Qur?an including ? 4124, 569. It is obvious from these verses that putting faith in the messengers and holy books is not included in the minimum criteria for salvation. The resulting logical conclusion is that the taqwa (which includes faith in messengers and books) is not the necessary minimum condition, rather it is the recommended sufficient condition, or recommended path towards salvation.

I disagree with your argument for the reasons given in the previous response. It is not logical. Especially when all the Messengers will stand as witnesses over their people and the people will be asked what response they made to the Messengers. Can an atheist earnestly be secure when his response will be that they were not certain of the Messengers nor the Books sent to them?
That is a bit ridiculous. You cannot say you honestly put faith in God and disregard/ doubt or be uncertain of His Own Words sent down to you by His authorized Messengers. It is just not possible.

Now, a closer look at the 2 cases I presented to support my understanding of iman and kufr

Case 1

26 Indeed, those who disbelieve, (it) is same to them whether you warn them or not you warn them, not they believe.

How do you propose to translate and interpret the above? Those who disbelieve - it is same for them whether the messenger warns them or don?t warn them, they won?t believe? If that is the case what is the point of Messenger?s mission? Only preach to those who already believe him? Does it make sense?

Your Response

Just like that

It means exactly what it means. Do not make things difficult for yourself. This ayaat makes perfect sense with the words translated as such. Do you know best or does Allah? The one who created them? Can you deny the truth of this statement with a sound argument?

My Response

Instead of critically looking at the verse and pondering what Qur?an is saying, you are being stubborn on sticking to your understanding. This is not a logical response to the question presented.

Case 1
You selected part of my response and presented it as the whole. The interpretations I cited are logically coherent as well and as I have stated are supported by context in Quran, concordance, root meaning and lexicons. It is not stubbornness that brings me to the understanding but Allah. I have critically thought about the entire Quran for 2 and a half years, while praying and seeking guidance day by day and upholding the Reading day by day. Don?t assume otherwise only because you dislike what I am saying.
You cannot deny that the ayaat is sound in the interpretation I cited.
I honestly do not believe you disagree with the possibility of this interpretation being sound in the way it was presented in my previous post.

It literally does not matter if you yell in a deaf person?s ear because they will not hear. It is akin to such a statement.
Arguing that 26 does not make sense in the conventional interpretation is a far stretch.

Case 2

2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.

If a-ma-na is supposed to be ?believing? how to you interpret the above. Someone who breaks their covenant with other people do not ?believe? in God? Why does the author of Qur?an conclude that No they do not believe?

Your Response

Furthermore, have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
Why did you omit the two ayaats before this one?
297 Say, "Whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - then indeed he brought it down on your heart by (the) permission (of) Allah confirming what (was) before it and a guidance and glad tiding(s) for the believers."
298 Whoever is an enemy (to) Allah and His Angels, and His Messengers, and Jibreel, and Meekael, then indeed Allah (is) an enemy to/for the unbelievers.
299 And indeed We revealed to you Verses clear, and not disbelieves in them except the defiantly disobedient.

2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.

Obviously this is referring to the People of the Book and their covenant with Allah
Whenever we see the word covenant in the Quran it refers to the covenant a people make with Allah once they submit not other people. Terrible attempt. Try again.

Oh Look it is another ayaat from Chapter 2.

240
O Children (of) Israel! Remember My Favor which I bestowed upon you and fulfill, My Covenant I will fulfill your covenant and Me Alone fear .

My Response

Covenant with humans or God irrespective ? the verse implies that breaking of covenant is an indication that a person does not have Iman (faith). Accepting Iman as believing does not add up. People who ?believe? in Allah can still break covenants with Allah and Mankind. So did Iblis?and many of the people of the book from the past.

Furthermore reading this as covenant with God makes it even more obvious that amana cannot be believing. How can you hold one accountable for a covenant with someone whom one does not even believe to exist?

Case 2
This ayaat is referring to the people of the Book don't look at 1 ayaat. Look at the surrounding ayaat in the surah to make sense of it. Especially the following ayaat 2101. These are obviously people of the Book that broke their Covenant with Allah, by not supporting the Messengers and concealing the truth among many other transgressions.

You are attempting to shift the frame of context in this ayaat to make the claim that the definition of iman in the logical interpretation does not hold in your distorted understanding of who the ayaat is referring to.

Once you accept the ayaat is referring to the People of the Book it comes clear that they had a covenant with God threw away the covenant with Allah and threw away the Book behind their backs

2100 And is (it not that) whenever they took a covenant, threw it away a party of them? Nay, most of them (do) not believe.
2101 And when came to them a Messenger (of) from Allah confirming what (was) with them, threw a party of those who were given the Book (the) Book (of) Allah behind their backs as if they (do) not know.

Your reading out of context. Almost this entire surah is reminding the Children of Israel of their Covenant with Allah and the ayaats leading up to it are admonishing and exposing the hadu for claiming the Home of the Hereafter is for them for the exclusion of mankind.

Furthermore Arman, you know very well no other people are mentioned or even conveyed in these ayaats. Again these were ayaats being addressed to the Children of Israel and there is no indication of this particular ayaat conveying any covenant with any other people.

If we were to entertain your outlandish claim that the covenant is referring to other people. Why would it affect your understanding of amanu.

It just wouldn?t be sufficient evidence nor logical evidence based on context and lack of mention of other peoples.
And it is just not true.

---

I have given the necessary clarifications to my posts. With deep regret I find that you repeatedly engaged in derogatory personal attacks in your post. For example

Disregard the ?attacks? and do not forget your own faults

1. ? that is part of your ploy.
2. Your mental gymnastics will take you nowhere?
3. ?just like you have been so far they are bent on denying the truth?
4. ?have you become a supressor of the truth yourself Arman?
5. You have become an opponent clear to the deen by propagating your nonsense. Your arrogance has blinded you.
6. You can definitely take your false sense of righteousness out the door

P.S. Translations from Qur'an above are my personal translations. If there is any specific criticism to my translation with regards to any word or phrase - I welcome that and consider that as a learning opportunity.

Rather consider these as criticism, warnings and admonishments, I hope you take them as a learning opportunity .

You are not innocent either

I have no intention to divulge into name calling ? if I do not see remarkable improvement in tone and a sincere will to discuss in civil manner? I will refrain from responding to your further posts.

Yet you later said about me

If you care enough to think about these two cases and share your understanding of the above logically ? In sha Allah our discussion can progress constructively. Else I?ll have to leave you with your delusions for the time ? hope someday our Master will give you time and will to do your own study of the original Arabic Qur?an instead of blindly relying on the translators and self-proclaimed scholars.

Is this not a "personal attack"?

If you claim I have delusions and you cannot and have not proven your stance from a logical perspective then your sense of righteousness is false or at best mistaken.
That is not a personal attack, it was logic.

If you wish to end the correspondence it is on you, you have yet to address my arguments properly. I took my time to ensure I address all your arguments, but you honestly rushed bit this time.

Now come on, do not play the victim, when you were in fact the one who truly initiated the "name calling".
Hope you have not lost the will to actually discuss and truly consider what I am conveying to you.

Also in response to the OP No a moralist atheist cannot possibly be a mu?min.

As long as we are defining an atheist as someone who does not put faith in the existence of The Creator Who created and sustains them perpetually, and are not certain about the meeting of the Hereafter (the Last Day) nor did they put faith in the Messengers and what they were sent with, then they cannot absolutely be a those who put faith/ trust in Allah.
It is contradicting to the very definition of mum?min.
You are welcome to re-read through my earlier posts and see the ayaats cited about atheists.

Please Read these

4523-26
Have you seen (he) who takes (as) his god his desire and Allah lets him go astray knowingly, and sets a sealing upon his hearing and his heart and puts over his vision a veil? Then who will guide him after Allah? Then will not you receive admonition?
And they say, "Not it (is) but our life (of) the world, we die and we live, and not destroys us except the time." And not for them of that any knowledge; not, they (do) but guess.
And when are recited to them Our Verses clear, not is their argument except that they say, "Bring our forefathers if you are truthful."
Say, "Allah gives you life, then causes you to die; then He will gather you to (the) Day (of) the Resurrection, no doubt about it." But most (of) the people (do) not know.

4531-32
But as for those who disbelieved, "Then were not My Verses recited to you but you were proud and you became a people criminals?"
And when it was said, "Indeed (the) Promise (of) Allah (is) true and the Hour - (there is) no doubt about it, you said, "Not we know what the Hour (is). Not we think except an assumption, and not we (are) convinced.

Atheists just as above do not expect to be resurrected and believe time is responsible for their death.
They are not convinced/ certain about the Last Day (the Hour) and only guess.
It is a perfect description of atheism and agnosticism.

Remember as I have shown in my previous post from ayaats related those who disbelieve in the return to Allah are guilty of associating partners, hence mushrikeen (polytheists). Therefore ?atheists? is not even a proper term.

1836-42
And not I think the Hour will occur. And if I am bought back to my Lord, I will surely find better than this (as) a return."
Said to him his companion while he was talking to him, "Do you disbelieve in created you from dust then from a minute quantity of then fashioned you (into) a man?
But as for me, He (is) Allah, my Lord, and not I associate with my Lord anyone.
And why (did you) not, when you entered your garden say, "What Allah wills; (there is) no power except with Allah." If you see me lesser than you (in) wealth and children,
It may be that my Lord will give me better than your garden and will send upon it a calamity from the sky, then it will become ground slippery,
Or will become, its water, sunken, so never you will be able to find it."
And were surrounded his fruits, so he began twisting his hands over what he (had) spent on it, while it (had) collapsed on its trellises, and he said, ?Oh! I wish I had not associated with my Lord anyone.?

It is a bit alarming that you are convinced these are believers. Believers and polytheists(atheists) are not the same.

4521 Do think those who commit evil deeds that We will make them like those who believed and did righteous deeds equal (in) their life and their death? Evil is what they judge!

To be frank I have included in my responses a lot of citations from Quran, while you have your ?unconventional? reasoning as main support. I am always trying to direct and invite only to the study of the Quran through humility and prayer, and you ahem overlooked many of the citations in my previous post bro.

Let us be fair and truly discuss. Please be honest and thoughtful and seek guidance from Allah in your response.

Let us supplicate Allah like the boys in the cave for Allah to dispose of our affairs in the right way.

Regards,
Herman

[HP_TECH]

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

13. Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
14. Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Would you be perhaps in support of such a claim?

That would be ridiculous, right?

Yet you make the same claim about 262.
If you claim that 262 is a minimum condition because of what it lists then by the same deductive reasoning 4613-14 supersedes 262 as the most minimal condition. It is even a shorter requirement which grants equally exemption from grief and fear and admission to abide in Paradise forever.

I hope you see the flaw in your reasoning Arman.

Obviously we cannot claim that what we find in one single ayaat clearly illustrates everything pertaining a specific topic. We have to take in consideration the entire Book and all the relevant ayaats and topics.
We know that there is no such concept as minimum condition. All of what Allah calls us to believe in and obey is in fact necessary and you will find it repeated in many places. The punishment is prescribed for those who deny the Verses, Signs of our Lord, therefore, you cannot exclude putting faith in the Signs of our Lord from necessary conditions.

Furthermore Read this Arman,

4629-32

29. And when We directed to you a party of jinn, listening to the Quran. And when they attended it, they said, ?Listen quietly.? And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners.
30. They said, ?O our people! Indeed, we have heard a Book revealed after Musa confirming what was before it, guiding to the truth and a Straight Path.
31. O our people! Respond to the one who invites to Allah and believe in him. He will forgive for you your sins and protect you from a painful punishment.
32. And whoever does not respond to the one who calls to Allah, then he cannot escape on the earth, and he will have no protectors besides Him. Those are in clear error.?

We are supposed to respond to the one who invites to Allah (our Messengers) and believe in them and as a consequence Allah will forgive our sins and protect us from a punishment painful and one who does not respond to the caller of Allah has no escape.

This further annuls your claim that the minimum conditions are only putting faith in Allah, the Last Day and acting righteously.
Again you must take into consideration all the ayaats that relate, which are far too many to cite but all contain various ?conditions? as you would presume. This means that all of what you would presume as conditions are actually necessary.

Hear me out Arman,
ALL of them need to be considered together. One cannot arbitrarily just pick one ayaat and make that the minimal condition for salvation.

Other than that one could arbitrarily pick 4613 and still be by your reasoning correct, while we know in logic that to claim such as a minimum condition would be absurd.
Furthermore there is no indication in The Book about any minimum condition concepts.

[HP_TECH]

69. Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
70. Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
71. When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
72. In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
73. Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
74. Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
75. (It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
76. Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?

Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence.

[Armanaziz]

Peace HP_TECH.

I do see a fair bit of improvement from your earlier attacking tone, so perhaps it makes sense to engage in this discourse once more.

The Minimum Criteria (262)

The bulk of your above posts are centered around refuting my idea that the verse 262 delineates the minimum criteria for salvation. For convenience let us recap the relevant verses

262 Indeed, those who have placed faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

... ... ...

4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.

4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.

... ... ...

569 Indeed, those who had faith, and those ? who became hudan or the sabian or the nasara, ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? then they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

From these verse I am deriving that the minimum / necessary condition for salvation are - i) faith in Allah, ii) faith in last day and iii) Righteous action.

You are challenging me that This "minimum / necessary condition" is my innovation - it is not mentioned in the above verses. My answer to that is - the very statement Whoever does X will get Y. - means that doing X is the minimum / necessary condition for getting Y. Consider these comparable statements "whoever gets 33 in the exam passes the exam" - implies that getting 33 is the minimum / necessary condition for passing the exam. Also, "whoever presents a valid ticket rides the train" - means presenting a valid ticket is the minimum / necessary condition for riding the train.

Now let's look at some other points that you are highlighting

Furthermore, how can you arbitrarily decide that putting faith in Allah does not convey putting faith in His Words and by default His Messengers.
It is a bit unfair for you to separate those from i).
One can argue that when it comes to ii) if one puts faith in the Last day by default they are acknowledging The Books which warn about it, and the Messengers who warn about it.
iii) Same argument is permissible for acting righteously, one acts righteously by acknowledging EVERYTHING authorized by Allah.

I agree that having faith in Allah is inseparable from having faith in the messenger - but that is ONLY AS LONG AS the messenger is duly recognized as such. Since we recognize Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah it is our obligation to have faith in the message brought by the messenger (i.e. Qur'an). But for someone who barely knows about Muhammad or Qur'an we cannot say the same. And that is where 262 or 4123-124 becomes so powerful. If Allah wanted to mean whoever does not put faith in Qur'an / the books / the messengers will burn in hell - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

You have presented another interesting point in your next post - which shows that you are thinking. You must be credited for your effort here

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

13. Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
14. Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Now if we look back to your conclusion from comparing 262 with 4613-14 it seems that you are trying to imply that the verses of Qur'an say inconsistent things so we should not take each verse at its face value. I am absolutely opposed to this approach or conclusion. To me if Qur'an is supposed to be the Words of God - and I am convinced it is - each statement of this book must make perfect sense on standalone basis as well as aggregate basis. So, instead of concluding that we should not try to understand standalone verses I would try to reconcile what these two verses are saying and then derive the conclusion that makes each statement sync with the other.

The first point of difference between 262 / 4124 / 569 vs. 4613-14 is that in 262 / 4124 / 569 the subject is the conditional noun "man" (whoever) - which is the critical word to indicate that it is a conditional statement; whoever does X, gets Y - the X is presented as the minimum condition for getting Y. BUT, in 4613 the subject is masculine plural relative pronoun alladhina (those).. which does not imply that it is the minimum condition. Again an example to illustrate the point

"Indeed, those who got first division passed the exam, those who got second or third division passed the exam - whoever got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word "whoever" sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Still one may argue whether the people mentioned in 4613-14 are meeting the 3 minimum requirements that we derived from 262

1. faith in Allah - which I interpret as acceptance of our responsibility to Allah
2. faith in last day- which I interpret as acceptance of our accountability to Allah
3. righteous action

Now, with this note let us again look at 4613-14 and put it in the context of minimum requirements as set out in 262. Per your translation

13. Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
14. Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

The extremely important point here is the phrase "remain firm". What does it mean to remain firm? The next verse has one clue - they are rewarded for what they do (a'mal) not only for their declaration. So, "remaining firm" on the claim of Allah being our Lord / Master (condition 1) itself includes righteous behavior (condition 3) that would result from accepting our accountability to Allah (condition 2). Thus the three minimum conditions are implicitly present in these verses as well.

The two cases

Case 1

You are saying the verse implies something like "It literally does not matter if you yell in a deaf person?s ear because they will not hear." That is exactly what I am trying to say. If we take the word kafir to mean disbeliever - it does not add up. Anyone who is a disbeliever is not necessarily blind or deaf - they can be simply uninformed or misinformed. Today they disbelieve because of not considering all arguments, but tomorrow they may believe when more convincing arguments or signs are presented. Rather those who are actively engaged in "Repressing their faith" - i.e. - suppressing their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong they are the ones who are deaf and blind. They are fixed headed about not accepting responsibility - so they will not be convinced with warning or explanation or signs. Thus the usage of the word "ka-fa-ra" in this verse goes to demonstrate that "disbelieve" is a oversimplified translation.

Also consider this if kur was a matter of disbelief the verse would have said "It does not matter if you explain to them or not explain to them, they won't believe". But rather the verse says, "It does not matter whether you warn them or not warn them, they won't put faith." - It is a matter of WARNING not explaining because Kufr-iman is not a matter of believing - it is a matter of accepting or rejecting responsibility.

The same can actually be demonstrated using verse 234 where iblis has been claimed to be amongst the kafir. Does it make sense that after failing to comply with God's instruction iblis started to disbelieve? No. Rather he became amongst the ones who - suppressed their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repressed their faith in God - or in other words failed to acknowledge obedience of God as an inviolable obligation. And that is all I am trying to convey Faith (iman) and Repression (kufr) are not merely believing or disbelieving in certain propositions - Faith (iman) is our acceptance of our responsibility to Allah and Kufr is the active repression of our inherent inclination of doing so.

Case 2

You again got fixed upon 2100 referring to God's covenant, while in my last post I have already accepted your argument that this verse which talks about "whenever they make a covenant" can be taken to imply God's covenant - that is not the point here. The point is even if it covenant with God, it does not make sense that by breaching such covenant they become "disbeliever".

Back to the OP

69. Do you not consider those who dispute concerning the Signs of Allah? How are they turned away (from the reality)?
70. Those who deny the Book and that with which We sent Our Messengers; but soon they will know.
71. When the iron collars will be around their necks and the chains; they will be dragged,
72. In the boiling water; then in the Fire they will be burned.
73. Then it will be said to them, ?Where is that which you used to associate (with Him in worship)
74. Other than Allah?? They will say, ?They have departed from us. Nay! We did not call upon anything before.? Thus Allah lets the disbelievers go astray.
75. (It will be said to them), ?That was because you used to rejoice on the earth without right and you used to behave insolently.
76. Enter the gates of Hell to abide forever in it, and wretched is the abode of the arrogant.?

Arman do you still think one can deny the Book and the Messengers and be a mu'min?
At this point I believe the OP has been fully answered and the claim refuted by massive evidence.

I acknowledge and appreciate your sharing of the verses of Qur'an highlighting the ill fate of those who reject the signs of Allah, those who reject the messenger and so on. I do believe and agree that those who seek the path of division and corruption rejecting our obligation to our common source of existence and rejecting the teaching of the messenger are the society of fire - they will be in it for ever. My OP was not about them. My OP is about the people who are faithful to their obligation towards our common source of existence by acting righteously to others - but as a matter of intellectual journey have not made sense of the nature of that " common source of existence" in the same manner as the people of the book do. I continue to believe Our Master can guide them among the righteous and we are not entitled to pursue enmity against them.

... ... ...

This is the third time I am explaining the arguments above and apparently there are still irreconcilable differences between your and my understanding. I believe I have made my case with sufficient arguments and you have also demonstrated your way of thinking which bars you from accepting my arguments. So, at this stage we should really leave this out for the readers to decide who is grounded on logic and who is grounded on delusion.

But I find it worthwhile to discuss a little bit on the root cause why there are such differences between your and my understanding. I believe that is because my approach to Qur'an is totally different from your approach.

My approach

My recognition of my Master does not begin from the Qur'an or the teaching of the messenger. My recognition of my Master comes from my observation of who I am and where I stand in relation to the universe. I recognize my Master by observing my own conscious mind - which I know cannot be a creation of accidental arrangement of matters. I recognize the handiwork of the Supreme Authority who has framed the heaven and earth in absolute mercy with absolute wisdom and in absolute justice.

I have seen that my Master's Mercy and active interest is NOT limited to any specific religion or sect - His mercy encompasses everyone. Even the child which is born today in the Chinese family who never heard of Prophet Muhammad or Qur'an is brought up with the same loving care of God that a "Muslim" child receives from its parents. The same sun gives heat to all, the same water meets their thirst. Each is endowed with the same faculty of freewill to think and chose their course of action - whether they should be humble and grateful for the gift of life and thereby act righteously towards all the fellow creatures OR whether they would be arrogant and live in a selfish world.

I have also seen that the nations which have performed more righteously, have acted upon higher ethical standards and effectively curbed corruption have indeed been blessed by our Master with a more equitable and livable society, whereas those nations who indulge in corruption and oppression end up in Jahannam in this very world - and this happens irrespective of religious affiliation of the nations.

So, this how I have found my Master - the One featuring Absolute Authority, Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice. I do not dare to claim I understand my Master, I simply acknowledge I accept His authority and thereby I accept the responsibility that I should act righteously to all of His creations.

When I approach Qur'an, I seek the wisdom from my Master in it - and to the extent I find reflection of my Master in this book - I accept the "best" understanding from it. Whatever interpretation or understanding is devoid of logic or out of touch with the sense of right and wrong that my Master has endowed me has to go away and I keep searching for the understanding that makes perfect sense in light of my Master's absolute Mercy and absolute Justice. When I read with this set of mind I see that "the fraternity of the book" are a fortunate section of mankind who have access to higher wisdom through the messengers and books - but they are by no way meant to be the only salvaged group. Rather they have, by virtue of their fortune, a stricter test of making the best use of their knowledge. The community of the last messenger, in particular, is supposed to be brought for the benefit of mankind - not to rule over them or force entire mankind to convert into their own.

And thus I strive to take the most accommodating understanding from Qur'an with utter humility (which you interpret as foolishness).

Your approach (apparently)

You seem to have started from the notion that Allah is a deity who created the humans to play some sort of game with them. He sent His messenger to some people with His book in specific language, to make things more interesting He flooded the earth with numerous false / outdated messengers, and He left out the vast majority of the others out in the cold with a big challenge of finding the right messenger and right book to follow. Those who end up finding the right messenger and book will be salvaged - the rest go to hell. Whatever you read in the Qur'an you end up fitting it into your notion that only the people who accept Qur'an are God's favored people and the rest are doomed.

You appear to be convinced that you have already hit the jackpot by finding the right book and the right messenger - so you have already become victorious over the rest of the world full of fools. This sense of victory gives you a unique confidence (which I interpret as arrogance) that enables you to consume all the benefits of science and yet show your middle finger to collective progress of human scientific endeavor by living in your flat earth of fantasy. It gives you enough confidence to promote hatred and enmity with everyone who does not agree with your religious ideas - including even those who strive to live peaceful and righteous life - thereby promoting the path of conflict, division and suffering - and still you consider yourself guided.

The bad news is as long as our approaches are so fundamentally different we are definitely not going to agree on our understanding of Qur'an. The best we can try to do is to pray to Allah together to eventually guide us to the straight way. The good news is - in the end to the same Master is our return. Then He will judge between us - what in it that we were differing.

Until then, for you is your resolution, for me is mine.

Regards,
Arman

[amin]

To me in Quran, Kaafir is One who is in a denial mode of the guidance because of their egoist mindset.
Good or bad are taught by God in live, so we should be in a position to open ourselves for His message, thereby making our path correct and one who closes himself to the message is a kaafir.
Guidance will come from everywhere, to deny is evil and immoral.

Here kaafir is not one who denies some specific names or ideas of God because He is above all ideas and purely sacred.

[HP_TECH]

Peace HP_TECH.

Peace Arman

Do you greet me with Peace, and then eat my flesh while I am deceased?

I do see a fair bit of improvement from your earlier attacking tone, so perhaps it makes sense to engage in this discourse once more.

Your tone in the previous posts and including this was/is equally if not more attacking and for record-keeping sake I will highlight these as well.

The Minimum Criteria (262)

The bulk of your above posts are centered around refuting my idea that the verse 262 delineates the minimum criteria for salvation. For convenience let us recap the relevant verses

No, I refuted your entire bulk of arguments Arman, but unfortunately you only highlighted the arguments you felt comfortable tackling.

262 Indeed, those who have placed faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

... ... ...

4123 By neither your wishful thinking, nor the wishful thinking of the fraternity of the book ? whoever acts in wickedness will be repaid for it and will neither find any patron nor any helper from beside God.

4124 And whoever acts out of righteousness ? among male or female ? and is faithful, then they are the ones to enter the garden and they will not be wronged by crumbs.

... ... ...

569 Indeed, those who had faith, and those ? who became hudan or the sabian or the nasara, ? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? then they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Another thing you deter away from is explaining to me simply how you arrive at your personal translations. Do you speak, read, write 7th century Classic Arabic?
I doubt it. So you should explain what your method for choosing certain interpretations over others is, since you claim I blindly rely on translators and self-proclaimed scholars.

From these verse I am deriving that the minimum / necessary condition for salvation are - i) faith in Allah, ii) faith in last day and iii) Righteous action.

That is an invalid assumption for two main reason, nowhere in the Quran is there any concept of minimum requirement furthermore this verse lacks the very words minimum.

You are challenging me that This "minimum / necessary condition" is my innovation - it is not mentioned in the above verses. My answer to that is - the very statement Whoever does X will get Y. - means that doing X is the minimum / necessary condition for getting Y. Consider these comparable statements "whoever gets 33 in the exam passes the exam" - implies that getting 33 is the minimum / necessary condition for passing the exam. Also, "whoever presents a valid ticket rides the train" - means presenting a valid ticket is the minimum / necessary condition for riding the train.

I am not challenging you. It is clearly your innovation. I will God willing demonstrate it.
Okay logic huh? X is what is necessary to get Y. Despite our arguments and opposing views, there is the absolute truth from Allah about what X entails.
Now you propose that X{A,B,C} by taking into consideration one standalone verse or a couple of isolated verses.

I propose that X{A,B,C,D,E} by taking in consideration the entire Quran.
I also propose that X{A,B,C,D,E} because A{D,E}. D and E are included in A and therefore when you claim X{A,B,C} you are really saying X{A,B,C,D,E}.

It is more logical to conclude that the universal requirement is more probable to be X{A,B,C,D,E} rather than X{A,B,C} because the former takes into consideration the entire narrative in the Quran, while the latter is forcing the unprecedented concept of a minimum requirement by taking one or a few verses out of context and excluding 2 other major ?conditions? which are found throughout the entire Book in order to satisfy an oxymoronic OP(Can a Moralist Athiest be mu?min).

Now let's look at some other points that you are highlighting

Address all my points?do not just pick and choose. I addressed all of yours.

I agree that having faith in Allah is inseparable from having faith in the messenger - but that is ONLY AS LONG AS the messenger is duly recognized as such. Since we recognize Muhammad (pbuh) as the messenger of Allah it is our obligation to have faith in the message brought by the messenger (i.e. Qur'an). But for someone who barely knows about Muhammad or Qur'an we cannot say the same. And that is where 262 or 4123-124 becomes so powerful. If Allah wanted to mean whoever does not put faith in Qur'an / the books / the messengers will burn in hell - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

Exactly my point, if Allah wanted to mean minimum requirement - He could have said that. BUT HE CHOSE NOT TO. And Our Master never runs out of words.

You have presented another interesting point in your next post - which shows that you are thinking. You must be credited for your effort here

Brother also strongly consider this which was shown to me by my Lord in my salat

4613-14

13. Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
14. Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

This nullifies your minimum condition hypothesis devastatingly.

One could by your reason also make the claim that the minimum condition is for a person to simply say ?Our Lord is Allah? and then remain firm.

Ok ok got some credit coming up? yay

Now if we look back to your conclusion from comparing 262 with 4613-14 it seems that you are trying to imply that the verses of Qur'an say inconsistent things so we should not take each verse at its face value. I am absolutely opposed to this approach or conclusion. To me if Qur'an is supposed to be the Words of God - and I am convinced it is - each statement of this book must make perfect sense on standalone basis as well as aggregate basis. So, instead of concluding that we should not try to understand standalone verses I would try to reconcile what these two verses are saying and then derive the conclusion that makes each statement sync with the other.

wow

Bruh? Is this how you credit me?

First of all that is an absolute strawman argument. Classic example.
Secondly, you have a nasty habit of fabricating ideas and reading between the lines what is not there.
I have never implied such things and you deliberately made that up to throw muck at my arguments. That is despicable.

This for the record is what I said

Obviously we cannot claim that what we find in one single ayaat clearly illustrates everything pertaining a specific topic. We have to take in consideration the entire Book and all the relevant ayaats and topics.
We know that there is no such concept as minimum condition. All of what Allah calls us to believe in and obey is in fact necessary and you will find it repeated in many places. The punishment is prescribed for those who deny the Verses, Signs of our Lord, therefore, you cannot exclude putting faith in the Signs of our Lord from necessary conditions.

I said the exact opposite of what you accused me of. This makes you a manipulating pathetic liar.

It is rather you who is taking the standalone approach by refusing to consider all the other ayaats in the Quran that command to believe in the Messenger and the Books.

The first point of difference between 262 / 4124 / 569 vs. 4613-14 is that in 262 / 4124 / 569 the subject is the conditional noun "man" (whoever) - which is the critical word to indicate that it is a conditional statement; whoever does X, gets Y - the X is presented as the minimum condition for getting Y. BUT, in 4613 the subject is masculine plural relative pronoun alladhina (those).. which does not imply that it is the minimum condition. Again an example to illustrate the point

That is not even logical now that I think of it. Your claim is that X gets Y. That is based on your focus on one verse. Other verses actually detail that X incorporates more than those 3 conditions and as you have said yourself and proven you cannot take a standalone approach and ignore other relevant ayaats and fabricate the notion of a required minimum. The pronouns are inherently interchangeable.

"Indeed, those who got first division passed the exam, those who got second or third division passed the exam - whoever got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word "whoever" sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Likewise
"Indeed, whoever got first division passed the exam, whoever got second or third division passed the exam - those got 33% mark passed the exam."
Look how the word ?those? sets the 33% as the minimum requirement.

Virtually interchangeable. This is not serious nor relevant nor your best argument.
The main flaw in this argument I would say is that for a particular reason YOU seemed to be ?hell-bent? on proclaiming there is a minimum requirement at the cost of single-handedly transforming language by claiming the term whoever specifically denotes minimality. This could not be further form the truth. Like I always say you have to consider context before you try to manipulate words and syntax.

Still one may argue whether the people mentioned in 4613-14 are meeting the 3 minimum requirements that we derived from 262

1. faith in Allah - which I interpret as acceptance of our responsibility to Allah
2. faith in last day- which I interpret as acceptance of our accountability to Allah
3. righteous action

Now, with this note let us again look at 4613-14 and put it in the context of minimum requirements as set out in 262. Per your translation

13. Indeed, those who say, ?Our Lord is Allah,? then remain firm, then they will have no fear nor will they grieve.
14. Those are the companions of Paradise abiding forever therein, a reward for what they used to do.

The extremely important point here is the phrase "remain firm". What does it mean to remain firm? The next verse has one clue - they are rewarded for what they do (a'mal) not only for their declaration. So, "remaining firm" on the claim of Allah being our Lord / Master (condition 1) itself includes righteous behavior (condition 3) that would result from accepting our accountability to Allah (condition 2). Thus the three minimum conditions are implicitly present in these verses as well.

Good work, and thus you have proven my point exactly once again thoroughly. My intention was never to claim that those mentioned in 4613-14 did not meet their requirements. It is the opposite! It was to show you that in order to conclude that those in 4613-14 are actually meeting your presumed ?minimum conditions?, you would have to have prior knowledge outside of 4613-14. If you were to look at it as standalone as you are doing for 262, one could erroneously make the claim that 4613-14 denotes the most minimal requirement. Upon closer study of the Quran one would realize that you?d have to finish the entire Book to truly make any judgements about any requirements. You have demonstrated this point perfectly for me by extrapolating ideas and concepts from other verses bedside 4613-14, specifically 262. Although you are able to support your own thesis by searching for relevant, congruent and incorporative ayaats you seem to not be able to use the same methodology when it comes to 262 itself and analyzing whether there any ayaats which better clarify the totality of requirement and if there are other ayaats, concepts and meaning which i) ii) iii) actually INCORPORATE.

Let me be specific here you claim remaining firm incorporates A, B and C. But, there is no logic why you should exclude D and E. It seems like a selective decision not a consistent truth-seeking studious approach in my opinion.

The two cases

Case 1

Anyone who is a disbeliever is not necessarily blind or deaf - they can be simply uninformed or misinformed. Today they disbelieve because of not considering all arguments, but tomorrow they may believe when more convincing arguments or signs are presented. Rather those who are actively engaged in "Repressing their faith" - i.e. - suppressing their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong they are the ones who are deaf and blind. They are fixed headed about not accepting responsibility - so they will not be convinced with warning or explanation or signs. Thus the usage of the word "ka-fa-ra" in this verse goes to demonstrate that "disbelieve" is a oversimplified translation.

Also consider this if kur was a matter of disbelief the verse would have said "It does not matter if you explain to them or not explain to them, they won't believe". But rather the verse says, "It does not matter whether you warn them or not warn them, they won't put faith." - It is a matter of WARNING not explaining because Kufr-iman is not a matter of believing - it is a matter of accepting or rejecting responsibility.

The same can actually be demonstrated using verse 234 where iblis has been claimed to be amongst the kafir. Does it make sense that after failing to comply with God's instruction iblis started to disbelieve? No. Rather he became amongst the ones who - suppressed their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repressed their faith in God - or in other words failed to acknowledge obedience of God as an inviolable obligation. And that is all I am trying to convey Faith (iman) and Repression (kufr) are not merely believing or disbelieving in certain propositions - Faith (iman) is our acceptance of our responsibility to Allah and Kufr is the active repression of our inherent inclination of doing so.

Then according to the very argument you are making, atheists who suppress their inherent faculty of using their God gifted sense of right and wrong or repress their faith in God are like in the worst position. Akin to Iblis repression of faith. They are actually informed about Allah and religions, probably even more so than other (speaking of today) polytheists, yet they deliberately choose to disbelieve.
Basically you have answered your own OP.

Case 2

You again got fixed upon 2100 referring to God's covenant, while in my last post I have already accepted your argument that this verse which talks about "whenever they make a covenant" can be taken to imply God's covenant - that is not the point here. The point is even if it covenant with God, it does not make sense that by breaching such covenant they become "disbeliever".

Back to the OP

I acknowledge and appreciate your sharing of the verses of Qur'an highlighting the ill fate of those who reject the signs of Allah, those who reject the messenger and so on. I do believe and agree that those who seek the path of division and corruption rejecting our obligation to our common source of existence and rejecting the teaching of the messenger are the society of fire - they will be in it for ever. My OP was not about them. My OP is about the people who are faithful to their obligation towards our common source of existence by acting righteously to others - but as a matter of intellectual journey have not made sense of the nature of that " common source of existence" in the same manner as the people of the book do. I continue to believe Our Master can guide them among the righteous and we are not entitled to pursue enmity against them.

... ... ...

This is the third time I am explaining the arguments above and apparently there are still irreconcilable differences between your and my understanding. I believe I have made my case with sufficient arguments and you have also demonstrated your way of thinking which bars you from accepting my arguments. So, at this stage we should really leave this out for the readers to decide who is grounded on logic and who is grounded on delusion.

But I find it worthwhile to discuss a little bit on the root cause why there are such differences between your and my understanding. I believe that is because my approach to Qur'an is totally different from your approach.

Here is where you begin to get dishonest?

My approach

My recognition of my Master does not begin from the Qur'an or the teaching of the messenger. My recognition of my Master comes from my observation of who I am and where I stand in relation to the universe. I recognize my Master by observing my own conscious mind - which I know cannot be a creation of accidental arrangement of matters. I recognize the handiwork of the Supreme Authority who has framed the heaven and earth in absolute mercy with absolute wisdom and in absolute justice.

I have seen that my Master's Mercy and active interest is NOT limited to any specific religion or sect - His mercy encompasses everyone. Even the child which is born today in the Chinese family who never heard of Prophet Muhammad or Qur'an is brought up with the same loving care of God that a "Muslim" child receives from its parents. The same sun gives heat to all, the same water meets their thirst. Each is endowed with the same faculty of freewill to think and chose their course of action - whether they should be humble and grateful for the gift of life and thereby act righteously towards all the fellow creatures OR whether they would be arrogant and live in a selfish world.

I have also seen that the nations which have performed more righteously, have acted upon higher ethical standards and effectively curbed corruption have indeed been blessed by our Master with a more equitable and livable society, whereas those nations who indulge in corruption and oppression end up in Jahannam in this very world - and this happens irrespective of religious affiliation of the nations.

So, this how I have found my Master - the One featuring Absolute Authority, Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice. I do not dare to claim I understand my Master, I simply acknowledge I accept His authority and thereby I accept the responsibility that I should act righteously to all of His creations.

When I approach Qur'an, I seek the wisdom from my Master in it - and to the extent I find reflection of my Master in this book - I accept the "best" understanding from it. Whatever interpretation or understanding is devoid of logic or out of touch with the sense of right and wrong that my Master has endowed me has to go away and I keep searching for the understanding that makes perfect sense in light of my Master's absolute Mercy and absolute Justice. When I read with this set of mind I see that "the fraternity of the book" are a fortunate section of mankind who have access to higher wisdom through the messengers and books - but they are by no way meant to be the only salvaged group. Rather they have, by virtue of their fortune, a stricter test of making the best use of their knowledge. The community of the last messenger, in particular, is supposed to be brought for the benefit of mankind - not to rule over them or force entire mankind to convert into their own.

And thus I strive to take the most accommodating understanding from Qur'an with utter humility (which you interpret as foolishness).

Ok I hear you. That is wonderful, although you lack concrete explanation, I identify with the same intentions and feeling of reverence when approaching Quran as yourself.
But wait?.

Your approach (apparently)

You seem to have started from the notion that Allah is a deity who created the humans to play some sort of game with them. He sent His messenger to some people with His book in specific language, to make things more interesting He flooded the earth with numerous false / outdated messengers, and He left out the vast majority of the others out in the cold with a big challenge of finding the right messenger and right book to follow. Those who end up finding the right messenger and book will be salvaged - the rest go to hell. Whatever you read in the Qur'an you end up fitting it into your notion that only the people who accept Qur'an are God's favored people and the rest are doomed.

Where have you ever heard me make such ridiculous claims?
That is a complete lie and misrepresentation of character and beliefs.

You appear to be convinced that you have already hit the jackpot by finding the right book and the right messenger - so you have already become victorious over the rest of the world full of fools. This sense of victory gives you a unique confidence (which I interpret as arrogance) that enables you to consume all the benefits of science and yet show your middle finger to collective progress of human scientific endeavor by living in your flat earth of fantasy. It gives you enough confidence to promote hatred and enmity with everyone who does not agree with your religious ideas - including even those who strive to live peaceful and righteous life - thereby promoting the path of conflict, division and suffering - and still you consider yourself guided.

what?? Your perception of me could not be further from the truth.
Just because we have different ideologies does not make me this villain you are painting me out to be. I am sorry I am just not that guy you are describing. Talk about ad hominem huh?
I won?t even dignify these absurd accusations with further words.

The bad news is as long as our approaches are so fundamentally different we are definitely not going to agree on our understanding of Qur'an. The best we can try to do is to pray to Allah together to eventually guide us to the straight way. The good news is - in the end to the same Master is our return. Then He will judge between us - what in it that we were differing.

After insulting me you want us to pray together?

Fine, all forgiven. Let us humbly ask Allah to dispose of our affairs for us in the right way, in our next supplication to our Lord let us mention this matter and seek His judgement concerning it.

TO PUT A NAIL IN THE COFFIN OF YOUR OXYMORONIC OP

5719-21
19 And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers, they (are) the truthful and the martyrs, (are) with their Lord. For them (is) their reward and their light. But those who disbelieve and deny Our Verses, those (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.
20 Know that the life (of) the world (is) play and amusement and adornment and boasting among you and competition in increase of the wealth and the children, like (the) example (of) a rain, pleases the tillers its growth; then it dries and you see it turning yellow; then becomes debris. And in the Hereafter (is) a punishment severe and forgiveness from Allah and Pleasure. But not (is) the life (of) the world except (the) enjoyment (of) delusion.
21 Race to (the) forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden its width (is) like (the) width (of) the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah and His Messengers. That (is the) Bounty (of) Allah, He gives (to) whom He wills. And Allah (is) the Possessor of Bounty, the Great.

28 O you who believe! Fear Allah and believe in His Messenger; He will give you double portion of His Mercy and He will make for you a light, you will walk with it, and He will forgive you. And Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
29 So that may know (the) People (of) the Book that not they have power over anything from (the) Bounty (of) Allah, and that the Bounty (is) in Allah's Hand; He gives it whom He wills. And Allah (is) the Possessor of Bounty the Great.

28, those who believe are given a command Fear Allah and obey the Messenger to receive double portion of His Mercy and light (guidance) so that He can forgive us

29 You have a misconception about a lot of things, the People of the Book is not a term used to refer for the believers look at verse 29.

456 These (are the) Verses, (of) Allah We recite them to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His Verses will they believe?

Atheists rather believe in man-made fictitious fables of low complexity self-evolving to high complexity. Something coming out of nothing with no causation.
They rather rely on their own knowledge and think they are self-sufficient and need not to answer to anyone.

Can these self-deluded boasters mu?min? How ill do you judge?

I am not completely clueless as you would like to think. I understand the OP, but whosever denies Allah, His Messenger and Books like the majority of atheists I know and the majority of those I do not personally know, will follow their own desires/shaytans and Allah will guide them astray unless they repent. You and your flawed rhetoric cannot protect them, they shall carry their own burdens and burdens with their burdens and BEWARE that yo will not earn some for what your flawed rhetoric may have unknowingly misguided some of them.

It would be exceptionally rare to imagine that someone who openly rejects Allah, the Hereafter and His Guidance can be guided to the Straight Path.
The point you are utterly and perhaps deliberately missing is that people do not guide themselves (the analogy of the man without a compass finding the way= way off), Allah is the only One Who can guide. And he does not guide the disbelievers. So stop this nonsense now.

To further destroy OP
Definition of Atheist according to American Atheists Inc.

Atheism may be defined as the mental attitude which unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind -- finding their resources within themselves -- can and must create their own destiny. Materialism restores dignity and intellectual integrity to humanity. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism's "faith" is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment which is in its very essence life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

Definition of atheism
1
archaic ungodliness, wickedness
2
a a disbelief in the existence of deity
b the doctrine that there is no deity

The definition proves that the question in the OP is an oxymoron. It is a contradicting statement, one who denies faith in Allah and the Last Day cannot be one who puts faith in Allah

Definition of moralist

Simple Definition of moralist
a person who has strong feelings and opinions about what is right and who tries to control the moral behavior of other people

Definition of morals

Simple Definition of moral
concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior
based on what you think is right and good
considered right and good by most people agreeing with a standard of right behavior

Everyone has a different standard of morality.
The definition of morality highlight how they pertain to a particular system of principles or rules of conduct. Who determines these rules for the atheist?
Mostly they will follow the tules of conduct that seem right to their own judgement, because they follow their own desires.

We know in the Quran the fate of the arrogant who deny the guidance and follow their own desires.

FINALLY about the minimum condition/requirement

You are able to reason how that Command entails more than what you read at first glance exactly because of other Signs in the Quran which support this notion, yet when it comes to believing and righteous deeds you conveniently claim there is a minimum, what happened to all the other Signs in the Quran that call for believing in the Messengers and the Books, are you in charge of censorship? With what authority do you exclude or include what Allah requires from His servants that He may forgive them? You have no such authority.
You are simply in the wrong about this Arman.
This was an example to actually show you that the Signs should not be taken into account into isolation without knowledge of the entire Book. You actually supported my thesis.
You had to have prior knowledge of the other signs that refer to your presumed three conditions in order to claim that this ayaat included them.
In the same manner one would have to have knowledge of the entire Book to truly understand what believing and committing righteous deeds entail.
Based on my knowledge of the Quran believing includes believing in ALL that is from Allah, with no exception Arman and the righteous deeds do not simply convey acting according to morality but it is more than that and you know they include salat, zakat, fasting, abstinence, avoiding consuming alcohol, blood, pork or consuming that which Allah?s name was not mentioned on, handing bridal dues before marriage and etcetera. Most atheists disregard most of these and would ridicule us for presumingly fobidding ourselves to enjoy bacon and sex.

Atheists do not acknowledge a Creator, would you agree? They do not acknowledge creation, right?
Your understanding of acknowledgment of Allah is wanting. The acknowledgement of Allah includes acceptance and admitting that He is the Supreme Creator who created ALL. Atheists fundamentally reject this.
Now look at the fate of the atheists in the Quran

5641 And those on the left, who will be from those on the left?
5642 In fierce hot winds and boiling water.
5643 And a shade that is unpleasant.
5644 Neither cool, nor helpful.
5645 They used to be indulged in luxury before this.
5646 And they persisted in the great oathbreaking.
5647 And they used to say ?After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected??
5648 ?And also our fathers of old??
5649 Say ?The people of old and the later generations,?
5650 ?Will be summoned to a meeting on a predetermined Day.?
5651 ?Then you, O rejecting strayers,?
5652 ?Will eat from the tree of Bitterness,?
5653 ?Filling your bellies therefrom,?
5654 ?Then drinking on top of it boiling water,?
5655 ?So you will drink like diseased camels!?
5656 Such is their share on the Day of Recompense.
5657 We created you, so why (do) not you admit the truth?

END of story .

Think about all these evidences and tone down the fabrications please and think "long and hard" and try to address all my arguments if you will.

Regards,

Herman

[Armanaziz]

Let us humbly ask Allah to dispose of our affairs for us in the right way, in our next supplication to our Lord let us mention this matter and seek His judgement concerning it.

Amin.

[alihawa]

Salam alihawa.

You are entitled to have your opinion.

I guess the only question to which you would expect my response is ?But those misled thinking are their problem, aren't they? Not ours for sure.?

I am not so sure, though. Yes, those who are misled in their thinking are misled for their own peril. It is indeed their problem. But in some ways it is also our problem. Our problem is how we define our attitude and our behavior towards them.

If one subscribes to extemist ideologies (ISIL and gong) ? people who are misled in their thinking about God create ?opportunity? for the so called ?Muslims? to take their daughters as slaves and take their wealth as war-booty. IT IS OUR PROBLEM to decide whether Qur?an really tells that all who do not ?BELIEVE? in God are kafirs and thereby at constant war with Muslims, or otherwise. We as a community need to sort out this problem first before we preach others about religious tolerance and diversity. And that is why it is so fundamental to understand what is ?Faith? ? is it believing in some dogmas or is it acceptance of some principles. To me it is clearly the second. Hope you find your own answer, soon.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Dear Arman,

Imho, those atheist are surely kafir, so we must treat them as such. But we should not make war on them unless they make war on us.

If you want to be clear on your understanding about iman, i think 82 gives clear features of the people who have iman (mu'min). Atheists, regardless of their "good" attitude, are clearly far away from those criteria.

Q 82
"The believers are those whom, when God is mentioned, their hearts reverence; and when His revelations are recited to them, it increases their faith; and they put their trust in their Lord."

I hope this help you get clearer understanding about this matter.

P.s do you know that this very thread and thought you are promoting is in line with those atheist agenda and main propaganda? They want to look good in the eyes of the people so they can recruit and convert more people to be one of them. I know that you did not meant to, but you just make a clear support to their effort.

http//i67.tinypic.com/345bu4g.jpg

Salam

[Armanaziz]

Salam brother.

You have some valid points there. The term Mu?min has various different forms in Qur?an. Specifically, the normative plural form ?Mu?minun? seems to refer to a very specific description of people who place their faith upon the God, His messenger and His book (the Qur'an). On the other hand the accusative form ?Mu?mineen? seems to imply a more generic understanding of ?faithful? people who have faithfulness in them as a quality. There is clearly a ranking in the level of faith/Iman (Ref 82) and it is not a binary factor.

I agree that those who are atheist are not qualified to be called ?Mu?minun?. Given the various possible definitions of the term ?mumin? perhaps instead of asking whether moralist atheists can be mu?min, I should have better asked whether we can generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. To this revised question my answer still resides in the negative.

Per my understanding, being good for goodness?es sake and being good for God?s sake (or seeking God?s face) is synonymous. The moment one acknowledges obligation to the concept of goodness without seeking any worldly return, one expresses an implied understanding that life has a purpose greater than following one?s whims ? and such understanding has ?submission to a superior authority? built into them. Per my humble understanding the strength of faith depends on how firmly one adheres to this obligation ? not on how accurate one?s dogmas are.

Believing in God and afterlife, as recommended in Qur?an, undoubtedly helps bolster our faith, and the brand of atheist who are bent on mocking and deviating people from God?s path are no doubt wrongdoers. But my point was we need to be very careful to generalize upon the group known as non-believer or atheists. Some of them may actually be faithful at heart but intellectually they are still searching for the face of God.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

[alihawa]

Salam brother.

You have some valid points there. The term Mumin has various different forms in Quran. Specifically, the normative plural form Muminun seems to refer to a very specific description of people who place their faith upon the God, His messenger and His book (the Qur'an). On the other hand the accusative form Mumineen seems to imply a more generic understanding of faithful people who have faithfulness in them as a quality. There is clearly a ranking in the level of faith/Iman (Ref 82) and it is not a binary factor.

I agree that those who are atheist are not qualified to be called Muminun. Given the various possible definitions of the term mumin perhaps instead of asking whether moralist atheists can be mumin, I should have better asked whether we can generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. To this revised question my answer still resides in the negative.

Per my understanding, being good for goodnesses sake and being good for Gods sake (or seeking Gods face) is synonymous. The moment one acknowledges obligation to the concept of goodness without seeking any worldly return, one expresses an implied understanding that life has a purpose greater than following ones whims and such understanding has submission to a superior authority built into them. Per my humble understanding the strength of faith depends on how firmly one adheres to this obligation not on how accurate ones dogmas are.

Believing in God and afterlife, as recommended in Quran, undoubtedly helps bolster our faith, and the brand of atheist who are bent on mocking and deviating people from Gods path are no doubt wrongdoers. But my point was we need to be very careful to generalize upon the group known as non-believer or atheists. Some of them may actually be faithful at heart but intellectually they are still searching for the face of God.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Dear Arman,

thank you for your current understanding that atheist can not be a mu'min.

About your next question about "can we generalize all atheist as kafir?" my opinion is yes and my argument is based on these verses

Q 4523
Have you seen the one who took his desire as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and
his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?

Q 2543
Have you seen the one who has taken his desire as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?

Q 3029
No, those who were wrong followed their desires without knowledge. So who can guide he whom God misguides? And they will have no victors.

maybe my understanding about kafir and polytheist is mixed up. those verses talk about people who follow their desire (can be their thinking, paradigm, or just wants) as their source of truth. they deny that the source of truth is from God and they believe that their thinking and paradigm can be the source of truth itself.

being good for goodness sake is not the same with being good for God's command. the behavior might look the same but the intention is not. the first take his/her thinking as the source of truth, while the latter surrender it to God.

these people has made their self a god by replacing God authority as a ruler to define what is right and wrong. they refuse to accept that their understanding about goodness is from God and claimed that it is because of their effort where God has nothing to do with it.

just like zakir naik said in one of his speech, atheist are the one who already said "La ilaha", if God will, they will continue it by adding "illallah"

i hope i share the same optimism that those atheist are actively searching for the truth, but one thing is clear. those atheist do the thinking about God, while many others do not think at all and follow their parents blindly. unfortunately for them, they will go to hell if they did not repent.

may God increase our understanding

[HP_TECH]

Dear Arman,

thank you for your current understanding that atheist can not be a mu'min.

About your next question about "can we generalize all atheist as kafir?" my opinion is yes and my argument is based on these verses

Q 4523
Have you seen the one who took his desire as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and
his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?

Q 2543
Have you seen the one who has taken his desire as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?

Q 3029
No, those who were wrong followed their desires without knowledge. So who can guide he whom God misguides? And they will have no victors.

maybe my understanding about kafir and polytheist is mixed up. those verses talk about people who follow their desire (can be their thinking, paradigm, or just wants) as their source of truth. they deny that the source of truth is from God and they believe that their thinking and paradigm can be the source of truth itself.

being good for goodness sake is not the same with being good for God's command. the behavior might look the same but the intention is not. the first take his/her thinking as the source of truth, while the latter surrender it to God.

these people has made their self a god by replacing God authority as a ruler to define what is right and wrong. they refuse to accept that their understanding about goodness is from God and claimed that it is because of their effort where God has nothing to do with it.

just like zakir naik said in one of his speech, atheist are the one who already said "La ilaha", if God will, they will continue it by adding "illallah"

i hope i share the same optimism that those atheist are actively searching for the truth, but one thing is clear. those atheist do the thinking about God, while many others do not think at all and follow their parents blindly. unfortunately for them, they will go to hell if they did not repent.

may God increase our understanding

wow everything I wanted to say in one concise short, clear, thorough paragraph. I need to learn how to be more concise. But I thank Allah that He has joined me with the salihina

[alihawa]

wow everything I wanted to say in one concise short, clear, thorough paragraph. I need to learn how to be more concise. But I thank Allah that He has joined me with the salihina

Thank you brother, in fact i learn a lot of things from you and many members in this forum.

May God increase our understanding and iman

[Armanaziz]

Salam alihawa.

About your next question about "can we generalize all atheist as kafir?" my opinion is yes and my argument is based on these verses

Q 4523
Have you seen the one who took his desire as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and
his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?

Q 2543
Have you seen the one who has taken his desire as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?

Q 3029
No, those who were wrong followed their desires without knowledge. So who can guide he whom God misguides? And they will have no victors.

maybe my understanding about kafir and polytheist is mixed up. those verses talk about people who follow their desire (can be their thinking, paradigm, or just wants) as their source of truth. they deny that the source of truth is from God and they believe that their thinking and paradigm can be the source of truth itself.

This is where my understanding markedly differs from yours. If I am understanding correctly, you are equating ?doing goodness for the sake of goodness? to ?taking one?s desire as God?. I see wide difference between the two. A person who takes his desires and fancies as God is expected to pursue his personal pleasure and physical satisfaction, while a moralist who is committed to be good is dedicated to acting fairly with others - without any expectation of return - even if that causes personal discomfort.

being good for goodness sake is not the same with being good for God's command. the behavior might look the same but the intention is not. the first take his/her thinking as the source of truth, while the latter surrender it to God.

these people has made their self a god by replacing God authority as a ruler to define what is right and wrong. they refuse to accept that their understanding about goodness is from God and claimed that it is because of their effort where God has nothing to do with it.

With regards to the part highlighted in red, what do you mean by surrender to God? Do you mean surrender to a Book which supposedly has the words of God in them? I would disagree here again. Upholding a book as the word of God has to be governed by application of our God-gifted sense of right and wrong, otherwise it has all the potential to mislead. The book can only be a guide and a reminder - our intellect must be in charge.

Per my humble understanding we surrender to God by upholding our inherent ability of differentiating between right and wrong (which is different from our fancies / whims / desires) which is founded upon a built in notion that we are obligated to put collective wellbeing above individual wellbeing. We understand this "collective wellbeing" as God's command to act fairly with His creations; while, to a secular person such characterization is missing. Thereby, per my understanding the difference between a religious faithful person and an irreligious moralist - who act in similar manner ? is more a matter of the way they conceptualize / characterize their relation to the universe.

just like zakir naik said in one of his speech, atheist are the one who already said "La ilaha", if God will, they will continue it by adding "illallah"

i hope i share the same optimism that those atheist are actively searching for the truth, but one thing is clear. those atheist do the thinking about God, while many others do not think at all and follow their parents blindly. unfortunately for them, they will go to hell if they did not repent.

This last part of your post seems to support more the idea that we can NOT generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. You seem to be more accommodating now to view at least some of them as journeymen who are trying to search for answers. That is exactly what I am proposing also. As long as they offer us peace and do not spread corruption on earth ? we are not entitled to call their faith in question. Rather as people of book and the community of Qur?an our duty towards them would be to make the signs of Allah clear for them ? then the matter of heart (intention) is for God to judge. And my reading of Qur?an continues to support this idea.

May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman