Can a Moralist Atheist be mu'min - Issue Revisited

alihawa

Salaam Arman,

This is where my understanding markedly differs from yours. If I am understanding correctly, you are equating ?doing goodness for the sake of goodness? to ?taking one?s desire as God?. I see wide difference between the two. A person who takes his desires and fancies as God is expected to pursue his personal pleasure and physical satisfaction, while a moralist who is committed to be good is dedicated to acting fairly with others - without any expectation of return - even if that causes personal discomfort.

imho, doing good for goodness sake while omitting God from the equation is one type of taking one's desire as God. who said that "taking one's desire as God" can only lead to pursuing personal pleasure and physical satisfaction or other "lower" worldly ornaments? Do you think pursuing intellectual pleasure by claiming that one can determine what is right and wrong without God's help is not following one's desire? i agree that "acting fairly with others - without any expectation of return - even if that causes personal discomfort" seems like a higher intention, but it is still wrong if they reject the God.

Q 18103-105
Say ?Shall we inform you of the greatest losers??
?Those whose efforts in the worldly life were wasted while they thought they were doing good!?
These are the ones who rejected the revelations of their Lord and His meeting. So their works were in vain, and We will not give
them any value on the Day of Resurrection.

Q 399
Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his
Lord? Say ?Are those who know equal to those who do not know?? Only those who possess intelligence will remember.

Q 1319
Is he who knows that the truth has been sent down to you from your Lord like he who is blind? Only those who possess
intelligence will remember.

those 3 verses stresses out the importance of understanding and accepting God. anyone can be a moralist, but as long as he rejects God, then he is a kafir and will go to hell if they do not repent. why they will go to hell? because he does those "good thing" in the name of himself or his paradigm, not in the name of God.

in my eyes, that's is why Firaun goes to hell. he make himself a god by thinking he can do anything by himself. eventhough he might show some good things, like raising up a baby Musa, without any expectation of return - even if that causes personal discomfort (who said that raising a baby is easy ? ))

With regards to the part highlighted in red, what do you mean by surrender to God? Do you mean surrender to a Book which supposedly has the words of God in them? I would disagree here again. Upholding a book as the word of God has to be governed by application of our God-gifted sense of right and wrong, otherwise it has all the potential to mislead. The book can only be a guide and a reminder - our intellect must be in charge.

Per my humble understanding we surrender to God by upholding our inherent ability of differentiating between right and wrong (which is different from our fancies / whims / desires) which is founded upon a built in notion that we are obligated to put collective wellbeing above individual wellbeing. We understand this "collective wellbeing" as God's command to act fairly with His creations; while, to a secular person such characterization is missing. Thereby, per my understanding the difference between a religious faithful person and an irreligious moralist - who act in similar manner ? is more a matter of the way they conceptualize / characterize their relation to the universe

why do you think that by surrendering it to God means we should not use our logic and intellect? i totally agree with you in this matter. only the intellect that can grasp the wisdom of Quran.

By surrendering the truth to God. i mean that we try to grasp the truth from God (Quran), this grasping process might go wrong so that we might land on the wrong conclusion. that's why we must use our logic and intelect and ask ALLAH to prevent this from happening.

no big issue here. just the difference between "a religious faithful person and an irreligious moralist - who act in similar manner ? is more a matter of the way they conceptualize / characterize their relation to the universe" is very big in the afterlife. it might look small in here, but their intention and paradigm make all the difference in the afterlife.

This last part of your post seems to support more the idea that we can NOT generalize all atheists as unfaithful / kafir. You seem to be more accommodating now to view at least some of them as journeymen who are trying to search for answers. That is exactly what I am proposing also. As long as they offer us peace and do not spread corruption on earth ? we are not entitled to call their faith in question. Rather as people of book and the community of Qur?an our duty towards them would be to make the signs of Allah clear for them ? then the matter of heart (intention) is for God to judge. And my reading of Qur?an continues to support this idea.

please dont get me wrong, they all are kafir now. but it can change if God will. just like me, i used to be mushrik before, but with God permission, i slowly improve my iman, at least as far as i know.

since they are kafir, we must treat them as a kafir until they change (if they change). we must not use blur border here. i think it is good if we approach them and warn them with ALLAH's book once in a while since the reminder is good

Q 879
So remind, perhaps the reminder will help.

imho, one's life can always be changed, muslim can be mumin, muslim can be mushrik or kafir and vice versa. we can not guess (by the info from Quran) the final destination of the people before his/her life ends, but after his/her life ends, Quran had already given us clear information.

glad to have this discussion with you

salam,

Armanaziz

Salaam alihawa.

The quoted verse 18105 refers to the people who ?repress faith in the signs of their Master? (kafaru bi-ayati rabbihim). The signs of our Master can come from various different sources ? it does not need to be in the form of a book or a religious teaching. While we respond to the signs of the book, some others may respond to signs in the real life. For example let's say, a graduate from medical school (belonging to moralist atheist school of thought) - looking for an opportunity to serve his fellow man - discovers about an epidemic in a rural are. The epidemic appeared to him as a ?sign? that he needed to go forward with his knowledge and skills and serve the people. He responds to the sign and visits the affected area and let?s say in the course of his stay there he serves many but at the end he gets infected and dies. Are we to conclude that he rejected the signs of his Master?

My understanding is that ? the guidance from the messengers and the holy books ? is a privilege for the faternity of the book (ahl-al kitab). For the others the signs of our Master may come in much more subtle ways than we usually think. Their faith is then reflected in how they choose to act - and what is in their heart is for our Master to judge.

please dont get me wrong, they all are kafir now. but it can change if God will. just like me, i used to be mushrik before, but with God permission, i slowly improve my iman, at least as far as i know.

since they are kafir, we must treat them as a kafir until they change (if they change). we must not use blur border here. i think it is good if we approach them and warn them with ALLAH's book once in a while since the reminder is good

And what is the mechanism of treating them as ?kafir?? Hating them and teaching our children to hate them? Not taking friends from their rank? Denying them justice/equitable treatment in our court of law? ? No, brother, these are the treatments reserved for those who actively repress / reject their obligation of behaving righteously - For the rest, whoever comes in peace to us, and do not spread corruption on earth, nor bring in enmity and hatred? they deserve our equal treatment in terms of fair-dealing and justice. That is how my sense of right and wrong dictates me to understand the message of Qur?an.

I am glad to have this discussion with you as well brother. May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

alihawa

salam Arman,

The quoted verse 18105 refers to the people who ?repress faith in the signs of their Master? (kafaru bi-ayati rabbihim). The signs of our Master can come from various different sources ? it does not need to be in the form of a book or a religious teaching. While we respond to the signs of the book, some others may respond to signs in the real life. For example let's say, a graduate from medical school (belonging to moralist atheist school of thought) - looking for an opportunity to serve his fellow man - discovers about an epidemic in a rural are. The epidemic appeared to him as a ?sign? that he needed to go forward with his knowledge and skills and serve the people. He responds to the sign and visits the affected area and let?s say in the course of his stay there he serves many but at the end he gets infected and dies. Are we to conclude that he rejected the signs of his Master?

My understanding is that ? the guidance from the messengers and the holy books ? is a privilege for the faternity of the book (ahl-al kitab). For the others the signs of our Master may come in much more subtle ways than we usually think. Their faith is then reflected in how they choose to act - and what is in their heart is for our Master to judge.

i agree with you that verse 18105 refers to the people who ?repress faith in the signs of their Master? (kafaru bi-ayati rabbihim). they are the one who deny signs of ALLAH, not just Quran verse and other holy books. those signs are everywhere, i believe you can see them too. the problem is those atheists repress their faith in the signs of their Master which should comes in naturally (like what happen to you and i) if they do not actively repressing them.

guidance from the messengers and the holy books might look like the privilege of ahlul kitab, but do you realize that te path of God has come to each one of us and it can but not necessarily in the form of Holy book, but at least it contains laws and structure?

Q 548
And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

even though the laws and structure that we chose might be different, they must meet these criteria in order to survive in the afterlife

there is only one God
there is an afterlife
commit to good deeds

the set of laws and structure that are chosen by those atheist might fit the third criteria but fails to meet the first and second.

you are very optimist by implying that their good deeds is the reflection of their faith towards the source of goodness, which is God himself. while they themselves clearly say that they don't believe in any God, regardless of its name. are you implying that they don't really know what they say or believe? but i agree with you that ALLAH will judge them fairly.

And what is the mechanism of treating them as ?kafir?? Hating them and teaching our children to hate them? Not taking friends from their rank? Denying them justice/equitable treatment in our court of law? ? No, brother, these are the treatments reserved for those who actively repress / reject their obligation of behaving righteously - For the rest, whoever comes in peace to us, and do not spread corruption on earth, nor bring in enmity and hatred? they deserve our equal treatment in terms of fair-dealing and justice. That is how my sense of right and wrong dictates me to understand the message of Qur?an.

is there any verse in Quran that command us to hate kafir and teach our children to hate them? please show me, i really forgot about them. what i do remember is these verses

Q 488 - 91
488 What is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups over the hypocrites, while God has regressed them for what they
have earned? Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a path.
489 They hope that you will reject as they have rejected, then you will be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.
490 Except for those who reach a people with whom you have a covenant, or if they come to you with a reluctance in their chests
to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you.
But if they retire from you, and do not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a path against them.
491 You will find others who want to be safe among you and safe among their own people. Every time they are returned to the test,
they fall back in it. If they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace, and restrain their hands, then you shall take them and
kill them wherever you encounter them. For these We have given you a clear authority.

it is a very wise guidance towards hypocrites and kafir. do you have any objection doing it? these verse has been backed up by the clear criteria about kafir, it is our duty as a muslim to implement it well.

Do you think doing good for goodness sake can be categorized as good deed? in my eyes, it is equally or might be far worse than raping a child. raping a child can destroy the victim's dignity and future life, but doing good for goodness sake while denying the existence of God other than himself (his paradigm) can destroy community and humankind. that kind of sin is called Shirk.

do you understand that people who make his paradigm as the criterion are clearly the ones who are described in 4523, 2543 and 3029 ? i think that is where we differ.

may God increase our understanding and iman

Man_of_Faith

It is still primarily the way of living that shows one's spiritual growth. One is quite ignorant and naive to deny the existence of a divine force, but for who is like that at least it is important that they begin to find their own true selves.

And, the word amin is also very misrepresented in common Arabic from a word that means more of realization in terms of who you are. On its own the word could be said, for example, if you say amin, that means you say 'sure to be', and that is why you in Semitic tradition end prayers in 'amin/amen', i.e like saying 'let it happen' with an emphasis on that you have faith in that it will truly happen. When you know that, the word 'amen b'allah also carries a slightly different connotation than what the sectarian Muslims like to convey and if you add the word's lexical definition together with B'Allah you realize that it means to make Allah real, i.e. manifest.

The Arabic word for to believe/suppose, implies uncertainty, only guessing something to be true although you are yet finding it very plausible to be true, is . See this extract from Edward Lane's Arabic English lexicon from the 19th century AD

Za-Nun-Nun = To think, suppose, doubt, assume, deem, believe, know, imagine, suspect, conjunctive, be sure of something in view of one's observations. As a general rule often this verb is succeeded by 'anna or 'an, that means to be sure about.

There is another word for knowing, , so here you see it implies that you think something to be true but you have nothing solid that makes your confidence strong enough to take it as knowing. Obviously the optimal case would be knowing as opposite of believing something to be true.

Be well
Amenuel

alihawa

Yes i agree, there are many cases where people chose to be an atheist because he observes many imperfection/flaws in the behavior of the religious people or religious leaders.

They are disgusted by the behaviour of the munafiqin, espescially the ones that sit on the high places. When they are observing another religion, another sample of munafiq pops up and this particular people are disgusted again. Everywhere they look they only see the munafiqin, until one day he said "that's enough!, no more religion for me!, they all lies!!!"

If this is the case, they are actually an honest and truth seeking people who had bad experience. This is where the reminder from us is really needed. We will remind them that there is still a true path of God open for him and invite him to observe it himself. That is our sacred duty towards these disappointed people. We should be aware that they have been through the bad days and may not believe this one easily because all the previous religions also say they are the right one.

If my understanding serves me properly, then this duty is called Hajj with some clear guidance on how to do it in Quran.

May ALLAH give us strength to do that again and again

Armanaziz

Salam alihawa.

i agree with you that verse 18105 refers to the people who ?repress faith in the signs of their Master? (kafaru bi-ayati rabbihim). they are the one who deny signs of ALLAH, not just Quran verse and other holy books. those signs are everywhere, i believe you can see them too. the problem is those atheists repress their faith in the signs of their Master which should comes in naturally (like what happen to you and i) if they do not actively repressing them.

guidance from the messengers and the holy books might look like the privilege of ahlul kitab, but do you realize that te path of God has come to each one of us and it can but not necessarily in the form of Holy book, but at least it contains laws and structure?

Q 548
And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

It is good to see that our understandings are gradually merging towards a point of agreement. In sha Allah, with some effort we can understand each other better.

With regards to 548 ? I believe this applies to the communities within the fraternity of book (ahl-al kitab) only. The ?you? and ?they? refered to in this verse are all different communities within the fraternity of book. I do not see this to imply that every community on earth has been sent down a law and a structure, nor does my observation in real life support that idea. (BTW my preferred translation for Sharia and Minjhaj is Menifesto and Open path.)

even though the laws and structure that we chose might be different, they must meet these criteria in order to survive in the afterlife

there is only one God
there is an afterlife
commit to good deeds

the set of laws and structure that are chosen by those atheist might fit the third criteria but fails to meet the first and second.

I believe the above argument is based on 262. This is again a good sign that at least we are in the same page of understanding that this verse describes the necessary conditions of salvation.

I am not sure if you thoroughly read my opening post. In that post I have already clarified my understanding of these 3 conditions. Per my humble understanding, to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ?faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life. Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last day may also be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.. (Note, how Qur?an very selectively uses the terms last day ~ yawm al akhir ~ and afterlife ~ akhirat ~ in different contexts.) And because of this understanding I am unable to claim that moralist atheists cannot meet these 2 criteria.

you are very optimist by implying that their good deeds is the reflection of their faith towards the source of goodness, which is God himself. while they themselves clearly say that they don't believe in any God, regardless of its name. are you implying that they don't really know what they say or believe? but i agree with you that ALLAH will judge them fairly.

Yes, I do believe most of mankind do not really know what they say or believe.
When majority of atheist reject the notion of God ? they tend to reject the notion of a big-daddy deity sitting above the seventh sky directing the affairs of the world per his whims. Because, unfortunately that is the mainstream notion of the concept ?God?. I too reject this notion ? such a concept is not but akin to placing one?s faith upon a tagoot. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the Authority over all beings, without imagining him as another being. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the source and foundation of life without assuming Him to be another living entity.

When it comes to atheists I have seen two clear sub-groups among them. One group does acknowledge that our life on earth has a PURPOSE. They accept the responsibility of behaving righteously and acknowledge accountability. On the other hand there is another group who take the notion of ?no-God? to imply ?no-responsibility?, for them accountability is limited to what is scripted in man-made laws. I have absolutely no objection to acknowledge the second group as kafir. But I do not see how I can claim the first group as such.

is there any verse in Quran that command us to hate kafir and teach our children to hate them? please show me, i really forgot about them.

We clearly have different understanding of what the verses of Qur?an say. My point is not about what Qur?an says, rather what you are saying. You are claiming that all of those, without exception, who fail to pledge their belief in the theological notion of "God" is necessarily placing their desire as their God - even if they act righteously. You are saying that the actions of those who profess goodness for the sake of goodness have no value. Irrespective of how they act they are doomed to hell ? If these are not propagation of hatred, I really don?t know what hatred means.

what i do remember is these verses

Q 488 - 91
488 What is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups over the hypocrites, while God has regressed them for what they
have earned? Do you want to guide those whom God misguides? Whoever God causes to be misguided, you will never find for him a path.
489 They hope that you will reject as they have rejected, then you will be the same. Do not take any of them as allies until they emigrate in the cause of God. If they turn away, then take them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take from them any ally or supporter.
490 Except for those who reach a people with whom you have a covenant, or if they come to you with a reluctance in their chests
to fight you or to fight their own people. Had God willed He would have given them strength and they would have fought you.
But if they retire from you, and do not fight you, and they offer you peace; then God does not make for you a path against them.
491 You will find others who want to be safe among you and safe among their own people. Every time they are returned to the test,
they fall back in it. If they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace, and restrain their hands, then you shall take them and
kill them wherever you encounter them. For these We have given you a clear authority.

it is a very wise guidance towards hypocrites and kafir. do you have any objection doing it? these verse has been backed up by the clear criteria about kafir, it is our duty as a muslim to implement it well.

Sorry brother 488 ? 91 comes in the context of hypocrites who verbally professes faith and alliance to the messenger, but behind the curtain they conspire against the faithful. I do not see how this relates to Moralist Atheists. Rather the Moralist Atheists that we are discussing are exactly the opposite, they do not pledge their belief, but they behave and act like faithful ? they are honest about their words and they profess fair-dealing and forbid immorality.

You did claim that even a moralist atheist who seems to be righteous in his actions is a kafir and is needed to be treated as such. Why don?t you explain for us how you propose to ?treat? them?

Do you think doing good for goodness sake can be categorized as good deed? in my eyes, it is equally or might be far worse than raping a child. raping a child can destroy the victim's dignity and future life, but doing good for goodness sake while denying the existence of God other than himself (his paradigm) can destroy community and humankind. that kind of sin is called Shirk.

do you understand that people who make his paradigm as the criterion are clearly the ones who are described in 4523, 2543 and 3029 ? i think that is where we differ.

may God increase our understanding and iman

Oh ya right, you are not suggesting to hate the moralist atheist ? you are just stating as a matter of fact your view that they are worse than a rapist who rapes a child.

Look brother, in the Qur?an I seek guidance from the Master of all of us. Who sustains all of us through trials and turmoil, through love and war, trough peace and stress. His mercy does not trickle down judging by what theological framework people subscribe to. I read in the name of Allah whom I know to be the Almighty and the Merciful. I know, in the holy scriptures, many have found the image of a jealous God who is obsessed with people believing in Him, praying to Him etc. ? But that notion I have discarded willfully and consciously. My Master has guided me to understand that faith in God is not about believing in a certain image of God, or subscribing to a particular theology ? it is about accepting our inherent obligation towards the common source and sustenance of life. That is my standpoint and that is where I am going to stay.

Allah is Our Master and their Master (knowingly or unknowingly) ? to Him I am slave to. That is the straight way.

Best Regards,
Arman

alihawa

salaam arman

It is good to see that our understandings are gradually merging towards a point of agreement. In sha Allah, with some effort we can understand each other better.

With regards to 548 I believe this applies to the communities within the fraternity of book (ahl-al kitab) only. The you and they refered to in this verse are all different communities within the fraternity of book. I do not see this to imply that every community on earth has been sent down a law and a structure. (BTW my preferred translation for Sharia and Minjhaj is Menifesto and Open path.)

yes brother, i also hope that with discussion we can get greater understanding if Allah's will.

but for the first point about path of God only come to certain people, sorry brother i have to disagree. the straight path of God had come to everyone, my argument is based on these verses

Q1663-64
1663 By God, We had sent to nations before you, but the devil adorned their work for them. So he is their ally today, and they will have a painful retribution.
1664 And We have not sent down the Book to you except that you may clarify for them that in which they have disputed, and as a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Q 1636
And We have sent a messenger to every nation You shall serve God and avoid evil. Some of them were guided by God, and some of them deserved to be misguided. So travel the earth, and see how the punishment was of those who denied.

Q 137
And those who reject say If only a sign was sent down to him from his Lord. You are but a warner, and to every people is a guide.

how can you come into conclusion that there are still nation or people that has no messenger, thus has no access to the path of God in the form of law and structure? it might not be exatly the same as the teaching of Quran, but least they have to fit to those 3 citeria (and yes those criteria comes from 262). the differences between those paths of God is beatifully described in

Q 2138
Such is the coloring of God, and who is better than God in coloring? And to Him we are in service.

I am not sure if you thoroughly read my opening post. In that post I have already clarified my understanding of these 3 conditions. Per my humble understanding, to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life. Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.. (Note, how Quran very selectively uses the terms last day ~ yawm al akhir ~ and afterlife ~ akhirat ~ in different contexts.) And because of this understanding I am unable to claim that moralist atheists cannot meet these 2 criteria.

i think i read them well brother. to make things clear, for the red one, is there any verse that justified this additional circumstances? or is it just based on your thinking and what you think must be covered in Quran? i totally don't remember about any verse implies anything close to that understanding. please be careful in here brother. this is exactly what i mean by surrendering what is right or wrong to God. if you can't come up with any verses, then you have made additional circumstances or addendum to Quran.

please dont insert any humanitarian teaching (or even anything) into Quran. it is already perfect

Yes, I do believe most of mankind do not really know what they say or believe.
When majority of atheist reject the notion of God they tend to reject the notion of a big-daddy deity sitting above the seventh sky directing the affairs of the world per his whims. Because, unfortunately that is the mainstream notion of the concept God. I too reject this notion such a concept is not but akin to placing ones faith upon a tagoot. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the Authority over all beings, without imagining him as another being. Very few people actually conceptualize God as the source and foundation of life without assuming Him to be another living entity.

yes i agree with you. that holy-big-wise daddy image might not help you and me in increasing our iman. but to some people it might work. as long as it works, i see no objection as long as it leads to Tauhid/monotheism. everyone has their own style or approach to spiritualism and it is ok

When it comes to atheists I have seen two clear sub-groups among them. One group does acknowledge that our life on earth has a PURPOSE. They accept the responsibility of behaving righteously and acknowledge accountability. On the other hand there is another group who take the notion of no-God to imply no-responsibility, for them accountability is limited to what is scripted in man-made laws. I have absolutely no objection to acknowledge the second group as kafir. But I do not see how I can claim the first group as such.

i understand your thinking here. there are 2 groups of them, one looks okay and it seems they just dont know the truth yet, while the other is the bad one)

i also agree with you that we should differentiate our attitude towards them. you can see my opinion about this group in here

Yes i agree, there are many cases where people chose to be an atheist because he observes many imperfection/flaws in the behavior of the religious people or religious leaders.

They are disgusted by the behaviour of the munafiqin, espescially the ones that sit on the high places. When they are observing another religion, another sample of munafiq pops up and this particular people are disgusted again. Everywhere they look they only see the munafiqin, until one day he said "that's enough!, no more religion for me!, they all lies!!!"

If this is the case, they are actually an honest and truth seeking people who had bad experience. This is where the reminder from us is really needed. We will remind them that there is still a true path of God open for him and invite him to observe it himself. That is our sacred duty towards these disappointed people. We should be aware that they have been through the bad days and may not believe this one easily because all the previous religions also say they are the right one.

If my understanding serves me properly, then this duty is called Hajj with some clear guidance on how to do it in Quran.

May ALLAH give us strength to do that again and again

We clearly have different understanding of what the verses of Quran say. My point is not about what Quran says, rather what you are saying. You are claiming that all of those, without exception, who fail to pledge their belief in the theological notion of "God" is necessarily placing their desire as their God - even if they act righteously. You are saying that the actions of those who profess goodness for the sake of goodness have no value. Irrespective of how they act they are doomed to hell If these are not propagation of hatred, I really dont know what hatred means.

Sorry brother 488 91 comes in the context of hypocrites who verbally professes faith and alliance to the messenger, but behind the curtain they conspire against the faithful. I do not see how this relates to Moralist Atheists. Rather the Moralist Atheists that we are discussing are exactly the opposite, they do not pledge their belief, but they behave and act like faithful they are honest about their words and they profess fair-dealing and forbid immorality.

You did claim that even a moralist atheist who seems to be righteous in his actions is a kafir and is needed to be treated as such. Why dont you explain for us how you propose to treat them?

Oh ya right, you are not suggesting to hate the moralist atheist you are just stating as a matter of fact your view that they are worse than a rapist who rapes a child.

Hatred has nothing to do with guessing that someone will go to hell because he disregard God. Quran already give clear information about that. If he is truly a good and honest people, i believe God will save him and give him guidance so that he can accept God and enter Heaven in the afterlife. but if God misguides him, then he really deserve it because God can not make wrong decision. God knows what is in their heart. while we are not.

Q 6 39
And those who deny Our revelations, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He
wishes He puts him on a straight path.

for those moralist atheist, if they repent, then they are our new brother. if they need time to grasp this monotheism concept, that's good. but if they wont, then just disregard them (no hatred, because someday they may change) until they make war on us. i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them.

about worse or equal to the rapist, yes. my opinion still stands. they dont know that what they are doing is a major sin, shirk. i think it is larger than rape because

Q 4116
God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives other than that for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed strayed a far straying.

i found these verse that also gives us guidance about how we should behave towards those kafir.

Q 5822
You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day leaning towards those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their kin. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.

Q 5814
Have you noted those who befriended people with whom God is angry? They are now neither from you nor from them. And they
deliberately swear to lies while they know!

Q 7164
And a nation from among them said Why do you preach to a people whom God will destroy or punish a painful retribution?
They said A plea to your Lord, and perhaps they may be aware.

Q 1660
To those who do not believe in the Hereafter is the worst example, and to God is the highest example, and He is the Noble, the Wise.

i know that you feel sorry for those moralist atheists, but believe me, i think i have a stronger feeling towards my father that still mushrik until today. i believe that God judgment's is right and we are in no position to question it. furthermore, i love my God more than my father that already worked very hard to grow me up.

i know exactly that if my father die while he still mushrik, then he will go to hell. and of course i am in no position to hate him whatsoever. so please remove hatred from this equation.

may ALLAH gives us greater understanding and iman

Armanaziz

Salam alihawa.

With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.

Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.

Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this

494 O! Those who have put faith ? when you set forth in God?s path then clarify and do not say to those who offer you peace, ?You are not a faithful? seeking (mere) trifle of the life of the world ? then there are larger booties with God. That?s how you used to be from before. Then God favored upon you ? so clarify. Indeed of how you act - God happens to be All-aware.

(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)

Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

alihawa

salam arman,

With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.

so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?

do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?

this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.

Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."

you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.

please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.

even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.

sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.

Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this

Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.

it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.

do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?

Zulf

Salam alihawa.

With regards to adding additional circumstances or addendum to Quran... no I do not believe I am doing that. I have derived my understanding of iman and kufr based on how these terms have been used in Qur'an. Once the notions of iman and kufr are separated from the notions of believing and disbelieving and properly aligned with acceptance / rejection of our responsibility / relationship with God - The understanding that I am proposing becomes the natural and logical understanding - the jealous God theory rather looks out of place with the message of God's Mercy and Justice in Qur'an.

Moreover, the believing (Jwa-nun-nun) is a totally separate topic which also has been discussed specifically in Qur'an. For example in 245-46 we are informed that seeking help through patience and salaat (reverence) is severe/difficult except for those who believe in meeting their Master. Note the use of the word severe here not "impossible". Also, in 278 Qur'an is talking about the uninformed people within the fraternity of books who do not have but their beliefs. "Believing" per Qur'an is like a two way sword - if placed correctly can be helpful to attain taqwa, otherwise can be misleading and even sinful. My understanding is derived based on these verses of Qur'an only - not from out of blue. Furthermore, I find support to my understanding in 2249 which I also discussed in the opening post.

Also, let's try to look at the below verse and discuss how to interpret this

Now imagine a moralist atheist who comes to us in peace - does not bring in hostility / enmity because of our difference in belief - and to the best of our knowledge acts righteously and deals fairly with everyone. Are we then with the above verse in mind authorized to tell them ?You are not a faithful?? Look also how this verse is treating this act of imposing "unfaithful" label as an act of seeking worldly gain. Think about it - when we earmark an otherwise peaceful neighbor as unfaithful based on what he believes - do we really try to please God who is our Master and their Master? Or is it our superiority seeking ego that we serve?

May Allah guide us to the straight way.

Regards,
Arman

Interesting.

RED Yes. I would say that dismissing others as having wrong faith is generally the ego (which is part of the flesh (through mind and brain)) trying to defend itself against things (ideas) that it perceives as a threat to its existence. This happens when we have come under the illusion that we are parts of the world like ideas, religions, professions, gender, ethnicity etc. We identify with these things, these ideas. We create a mental construct out of various building blocks such as religion (etc), and then fool ourselves into believing that this is us. The ego obviously goes into defencive mode when its religion (for example) is questioned, because it is perceived as its very existence is at stake. In a way its existence is indeed threatened, because when our identity is only made up of ideas (religions etc) then what else can the ego think? Obviously, the issue is that we associate things with ourselves that are not us. Like we should not associate stuff with God, so we should also not associate stuff with ourselves.

If your mind feels it has to label others are "them" and "wrong", then your perception is very unholistic... which in turn means that it is blinded by this Earthly world. Like you say, faith can be a double edged sword, and the problem is that we can not see in what direction it is currently cutting, especially when it is cutting in the wrong way. Blind is blind. But the blind is dead sure of being seeing, ironically.

Also, this explains why people get so heated up and angry when debating things like religion, politics and ethnicity. The reason is that we have built an identity our of these packages of ideas. But is our soul made up of religion, politics and ethnicity? No. Perhaps we ought to reconsider our own very essence then.

I found it very interesting to learn about the quranic connection between the need of labeling others as unfaithful, and seeking worldy gain. It makes total sense.

Kind regards

Armanaziz

salam arman,

so you admitted that those additional condition is basically derived form your understanding and logical thinking based on your observation how word iman and kufr are used is Quran, right?

do you think you have enough intellectual capacity to do that brother?
do you think your natural and logical understanding can find the loopholes and finally perfected Quranin in one of its clear and concise verse (muhkamat)?
do you think God forgot to include those things?
do you think God has authorized you to do that?

For better or worse my intellect is all that my Master has given me to work with and I?ll live or die based on what I understand making the most sincere us of the sense of right and wrong that my Master has bestowed me. If I consider myself incapable and inadequate and hence blindly follow a scholar or even a book, I would be associating partner with my Master. I seek refuge to my Master for being among the ignorant.

this is the translation of Q 262
Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

Good at least you recognized that this is a ?translation?. I do not agree to the above translation which translates amana billahi as ?believe in God? rather than as ?have faith in God?. The difference is vast and the implications are far reaching. This is how I translate this verse

262 Indeed, those who have palced faith, and those who have become hudan or the nasara or the sabian? whoever put faith in God and the last day and acted righteously ? so for them their reward is with their Master, and they don?t have any fear, nor will they grieve.

this is your "side note" or comment or whatever about what Q 262
"to have faith in God (condition 1) one does not necessarily need to profess the belief in a supreme deity ? faith in God may also be attained by acceptance of our obligation to put collective wellbeing of all living beings above our personal whims as a commitment to the common source and sustenance of life.

Secondly, to have faith in the last day (condition 2) one does not need to profess the belief in afterlife ? rather faith in the last may be attained by acceptance of our accountability for our actions acknowledging that every action will beget its return in one way or other.."

you said that you did not believe you were doing that, but you just did.

please brother, for your own sake, please repent, i beg you.

I am not adding anything ? what Qur?an says is clearly out there ? I have provided the supporting verses and proofs which you say you don?t understand. I just shared with you my understanding? and my reasoning? accepting or rejecting is up to you.

even our prophet did not dare to do what you have done because of these verses
Q 69 44 - 47
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

These are generic verses. I understand Iman as ?Faith? (as in I am faithful to my Master), you understand iman as believing. I see clear indications in Qur?an that the term Iman CANNOT mean ?believing? and I have shared such proofs in this very thread. Our debate is not about what the Qur'an says in Arabic - our debate is about the meaning and understanding thereof. We each can blame the other for attributing falsehood about God - but the true interpretation is only with God. Let us leave the matter to God then?

sorry you lost me there. i dont know what you are talking about in this paragraph.

Any specific item I can help with?

i think i have made myself clear about our attitude towards them. if they want to know the truth, then we'll share it with them, if they wont, then just disregard them.

it does not mean that we have to be cruel. full of hatred and injustice to them, just apply what the Quran has to say about our attitude towards them. do you have any difficulties finding those verses? once you find them, they are all clear and nothing unusual that needs to be discussed i think.

do you still need to discuss about how you should behave towards those atheist after all this long and wide discussion?

It is not as simple as disregard them. Qur?an gives different treatment for the mu?min and kafir in terms of legal retribution ? for example in case of murder. We need to understand whom can we label as kafir and whom we cannot to correctly apply these rules. Besides in a globalized world we increasingly have to interact with people of non-religious background as our classmates, teachers, neighbors, employers and coworkers. We need clear understanding of whom we can earmark as kafir and whom we cannot.

I submit to my Master who runs the universe with Absolute Mercy and Absolute Justice ? not to the God portrayed by any Book. The book (Qur?an) is not but a wise reminder. It is only the mercy of my Master that He helped me to see His signs in this book. Indeed I have faced my face to the One who framed the heavens and earth in precision and I am not among the ones associating partners with Him.

Guidance is only with my Master, He guides to the straight way whomever He wills.

Regards,
Arman

alihawa

Thank you for this discussion brother.

I hope we can get many useful things from it

HP_TECH

FINAL STATEMENT

ALLAH explicitly spells out the answer to the OP in many ways in His Quran.

ALLAH defines who muh'minun are not the OP.

82-4

82 Innama almu/minoona allatheena itha thukira Allahu wajilat quloobuhum wa-itha tuliyat AAalayhim ayatuhu zadat-hum eemanan waAAala rabbihim yatawakkaloona
83 Allatheena yuqeemoona alssalata wamimma razaqnahum yunfiqoona
84 Ola-ika humu almu/minoona haqqan lahum darajatun AAinda rabbihim wamaghfiratun warizqun kareemun

82 Only the believers (are) those who when Allah is mentioned feel fear their hearts, and when are recited to them His Verses, they increase them (in) faith, and upon their Lord they put their trust.
83 Those who establish the prayer and out of what We have provided them they spend.
84 Those - they are the believers (in) truth. For them (are) ranks with their Lord and forgiveness and a provision noble.

HP_TECH

Allah's Covenant with mankind is pretty clear there are no grey areas unlike what is proposed by the OP.

735-36

735 Ya banee adama imma ya/tiyannakum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee famani ittaqa waaslaha fala khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona
736 Waallatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina waistakbaroo AAanha ola-ika as-habu alnnari hum feeha khalidoona

735 O Children (of) Adam! If come to you Messengers from you relating to you My Verses, then whoever fears Allah, and reforms, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.
736 But those who deny Our Verses and (are) arrogant towards them those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it will abide forever.

simonejamilla

Belief is not as easy as people would think, just look around you!
If you are a believer, then in my understanding; one must have belief in
the Sustainer - l-qaymu (God),
the Sustainer - is the only judge (l-fatu),
the Sustainer - is the only guide (yahd&#299.
To whom one must have complete trust and reliance on, and call upon. (755, 4060)
This is nurtured by; One God consciousness, (yattaqna)
Learned through; reading the Qur'an (iq'ra). 96 1-6
Practiced by; doing acts of righteousness, following and implementing God's l-dni (system).
mn (Belief) is paramount to understanding the Qur'an, as it is written for the believers/God concious (lil'muttaqna), the rightly guided ones (muh'tadna), thus can only be understood by the sincere ones (l-mukh'lana).

Please read srat l-nr (The Light) 2434-36 sun

Man_of_Faith

Amin means confidence/security/faith/trust in something. It does not mean believe/think/suppose, that stands for.

Primarily, a person should have faith in their own being, and called self-confidence in English.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace All,

I am wondering if anyone can point out a single instance in quran of the word "amina" or its derivatives being used in relation to the preposition meaning "in" rather than "with".

Imraan

simonejamilla

Amin means confidence/security/faith/trust in something. It does not mean believe/think/suppose, that stands for.

Primarily, a person should have faith in their own being, and called self-confidence in English.

Be well
Qarael Amenuel

Faith, trust, security, are all part of belief.

The_Sardar

Faith, trust, security, are all part of belief.

Make sure it is not blind for Allah/God (SWTY) does not tolerate blind faith. Salamun Alaykum dear sister of Mankind. group

simonejamilla

Make sure it is not blind for Allah/God (SWTY) does not tolerate blind faith. Salamun Alaykum dear sister of Mankind. group

peace bravo handshake