Fasting in North Pole
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Yes, I know I can fast the whole year, but the question which is the reason of this thread is the ramadan fast, that is the one we have been talkig about, not any other. Y ou have been pounding on following what the Qur'an says, so although I have no trouble in recognizing you are very clever, still the question is that the Qur'ann does say fast ramadan, so the questionn is when is ramadan not whether the rabbis are hypocritical or what not. So what is of help here for those who want to fast ramadan or at least know when they should fast if they do decide to fast ramadan is when is ramadan. For the rest of the year and other niceties I suppose there are or there can be many other threads.
Salaam
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Yes, I know I can fast the whole year, but the question which is the reason of this thread is the ramadan fast, that is the one we have been talkig about, not any other. Y ou have been pounding on following what the Qur'an says, so although I have no trouble in recognizing you are very clever, still the question is that the Qur'ann does say fast ramadan, so the questionn is when is ramadan not whether the rabbis are hypocritical or what not. So what is of help here for those who want to fast ramadan or at least know when they should fast if they do decide to fast ramadan is when is ramadan. For the rest of the year and other niceties I suppose there are or there can be many other threads.
Salaam
Peace,
"you have been pounding on following what the Qur'an says"
Is there anything wrong with advocating that people follow the quran? or reminding people of it? i dont know if anyone else gains any reminder or insight from it, but personaly i do writing it, and i also love hearing what reminders others bring up from the quran, we are all gods creatures, and often forgetfull, well i am anyway.i agree, when is ramadhan? does anyone know for certain besides God? if so, please share your evidence, if not, well i dont, it doesent seem like anyway else does.. untill then, what more can we do? I do not wish to risk following a way that is not Gods, i fear that the sacred months, and probably ramadhan also have already been shifted around..
I know the torah mentions some things in regards to the months, and different events during the year, including fasts, though, i am not learned in it, i would reccomend looking there, prehaps we may find some insight, at least a lead.
2177
Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of adversity and hardship and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
i think the best answers have already come from god
Peace
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The question with the Qur'an is that thre is o need that you harrow it on the convinced as if they were not sure but you were. Nobody is questionning the auhority of the Qur'an nd nobody is against the Qur'an being isisted upon but the fact that when you do that you seem to assume that you are doing it but that other are neglecting it. That is not so.
In fact in the Qur'anthere is written about the intercalation. so nobody is inventing anything. Intercalation was a calendar practice in the lunar year so precisely a to avoid the lunar moths to get disconected witih the sun months and so as to keep the concordance along thhe year. So nobody is inventing anything with that.
Salaam
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The question with the Qur'an is that thre is o need that you harrow it on the convinced as if they were not sure but you were. Nobody is questionning the auhority of the Qur'an nd nobody is against the Qur'an being isisted upon but the fact that when you do that you seem to assume that you are doing it but that other are neglecting it. That is not so.
In fact in the Qur'anthere is written about the intercalation. so nobody is inventing anything. Intercalation was a calendar practice in the lunar year so precisely a to avoid the lunar moths to get disconected witih the sun months and so as to keep the concordance along thhe year. So nobody is inventing anything with that.
Salaam
Peace, actualy the originaly author of the topic, and other members such as man of faith, were/are questioning the authority of the quran!
i find it hard to follow the second part of what you said, i dont know if you are on a phone, or just typing too fast, but from what i do understand you are talking about adjusting the calendar month to compensate for the differences between lunar and solar times? its realy not my area of expertise, but considering how much do we realy know? how can we verify this information? because if i cannot verify it, i am not going to uphold it, as God instructs us in the quran.. as was my original point. but God actualy says in the quran..
937
Edip-Layth (Quran A Reformist Translation)
937 Know that accelerating the intercalary is an addition in rejection; that those who have rejected may misguide with it. They make it lawful one calendar year, and they forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.8The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
937 Know that the use of the additional month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year, and forbidden one year, so as to circumvent the count of what God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God has made forbidden. Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people.Muhammad Asad (The Message Of Quran)
937 The intercalation is but one more instance of refusal to acknowledge the truth-56 by which those who are bent on denying the truth are led astray. They declare this to be permissible in one year and forbidden in year,57 in order to conform to the number of months which God has hallowed and thus they make allowable what God has forbidden.58 Goodly seems unto them the evil of their own doings, since God does not grace with His guidance people who refuse to acknowledge the truth.Rashad Khalifa (The Final Testament)
Altering the Sacred Months
937 Altering the Sacred Months is a sign of excessive disbelief; it augments the straying of those who have disbelieved. They alternate the Sacred Months and the regular months, while preserving the number of months consecrated by GOD. They thus violate what GOD has consecrated. Their evil works are adorned in their eyes. GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.6 ,Shabbir Ahmed (Quran As It Explains Itself)
937 Altering the Sacred Months is only an addition to disbelief. It increases the straying of the disbelievers. They keep the total count of the Sacred Months as four, but keep shifting them within the same year or from year to year. Thus they allow what God has forbidden. Their evil actions seem pleasing to them. God does not guide those who choose to reject the truth.im going to have to look into this verse in more depth, but its clear that someone is doing something to the sacred months!!
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Peace, actualy the originaly author of the topic, and other members such as man of faith, were/are questioning the authority of the quran!
As far as I understood, only the typical interpretation and translation of the Quran has been questioned... not the message or text itself.
That's quite a difference. -
As far as I understood, only the typical interpretation and translation of the Quran has been questioned... not the message or text itself.
That's quite a difference.Is God not sufficient to preserve his message? a great majority of the quran is very clear and cannot be misinterpreted. there are of course some parts which have multiple meanings, but God informs us that he knows the meaning, and also those with the knowledge of it.
God informs us to follow the best of what he revealed, there is the same consistant message in all his revelations. what we do with it is up to us, I trust in Gods revelations, i trust that God is sufficient to preserve his message.
Who is God? is he not All powerfull? can he not sufficiently guide us? or do the traditionalists overpower God and prevent his guidance??
God guides whoever he wills,and leaves to stray whoever he wills, and whoever god chooses to guide none can misguide, and whoever god chooses to misguide none can guide.
Peace,
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I don't know.
Peace Zulf, thanks for taking time to respond to my question.
So if a person questioned you about fasting on the north pole you would have
no answer for them.As far as I understood, only the typical interpretation and translation of the Quran has been questioned... not the message or text itself.
That's quite a difference.By whom, and could you elaborate on the difference between " the typical interpretation and translation"
and "the message or text itself" if you don't mind/have time. -
Who is God? is he not All powerfull? can he not sufficiently guide us? or do the traditionalists overpower God and prevent his guidance??
God guides whoever he wills,and leaves to stray whoever he wills, and whoever god chooses to guide none can misguide, and whoever god chooses to misguide none can guide.
Agreed.
To be guided we first need to really want to be guided, to pray for it, and to acknowledge we might be at fault were we don't think we are at fault.
Traditionalists cannot overpower God. But herd mentality and the taboo of questioning norms will be useful in promoting ignorance and stagnation. For fear of being excommunicated, we avoid going against the established "truths", and even to question them. Questioning is not the same as rejecting. Questioning is more like evaluating, and sometimes refining.
Peace
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The aya quoted about intercaltion is not critical of intercalation itelf but of the tricks used by those in question to use the intercalation for their own ignoble purposes.
Salaam
How do you get that out of those verses, it says that it is an increase in disbelief? and that the months are 12. if we are going to add more or take away, which, in my limited understanding is what intercalation is then that is exactly as it seems, an increase in disbelief.
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Agreed.
To be guided we first need to really want to be guided, to pray for it, and to acknowledge we might be at fault were we don't think we are at fault.
Traditionalists cannot overpower God. But herd mentality and the taboo of questioning norms will be useful in promoting ignorance and stagnation. For fear of being excommunicated, we avoid going against the established "truths", and even to question them. Questioning is not the same as rejecting. Questioning is more like evaluating, and sometimes refining.
Peace
Peace,
I agree completely with your first part of your post
if people are following heard mentality and taboos then they cannot be following God, as he says trusters are the ones who do not fear any except God, and do not fear the blame of those who critisize?
and who is we? i dont care what anyone else thinks of what i trust in.. or how i go about it, except what God thinks. i think we all should..
Peace
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and who is we? i dont care what anyone else thinks of what i trust in.. or how i go about it, except what God thinks. i think we all should..
"We" is just a very general pronoun... people in general, instead of a collective 'you', or 'one'.
I admire you for not bothering what other people think. I find it very unusual. I wish I was better at it myself.
I think 99% of people care more or less, at least in some areas, or so it seems. It's natural... an old defense mechanism of survival. If you were thrown out of the tribe into the wilderness in the "good old days" you'd be toast. Alone is not strong. In today's modern society we can live alone, because there is a society that keeps us sort of company and where food and shelter and medical care is more or less readily available. The more primitive civilization we live in, the more important it is to have the backing and support of the group. Our lives depend on it. Therefore, we are programmed to care. It has a history, albeit a primitive one.
Peace
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Peace Zulf, Timotheus,
"We" is just a very general pronoun... people in general, instead of a collective 'you', or 'one'.
I admire you for not bothering what other people think. I find it very unusual. I wish I was better at it myself.
I think 99% of people care more or less, at least in some areas, or so it seems. It's natural... an old defense mechanism of survival. If you were thrown out of the tribe into the wilderness in the "good old days" you'd be toast. Alone is not strong. In today's modern society we can live alone, because there is a society that keeps us sort of company and where food and shelter and medical care is more or less readily available. The more primitive civilization we live in, the more important it is to have the backing and support of the group. Our lives depend on it. Therefore, we are programmed to care. It has a history, albeit a primitive one.
Peace
I find it very hard to not care about what other people think, even to the slightest degree. We're social beings. We care at least a bit, otherwise we're deluding ourselves. We certainly may care more about something like say, what the God thinks of us over what people think of us. But that doesn't mean that we completely stop caring about what other people think of us still. We all like to have friends, surely.
Yup, neanderthals were potentially more intelligent than us (as we suspect they had larger brains due to their larger skulls) but they were wiped out because homo sapiens had the strength in numbers...
But anyways... offtopic
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"We" is just a very general pronoun... people in general, instead of a collective 'you', or 'one'.
I admire you for not bothering what other people think. I find it very unusual. I wish I was better at it myself.
I think 99% of people care more or less, at least in some areas, or so it seems. It's natural... an old defense mechanism of survival. If you were thrown out of the tribe into the wilderness in the "good old days" you'd be toast. Alone is not strong. In today's modern society we can live alone, because there is a society that keeps us sort of company and where food and shelter and medical care is more or less readily available. The more primitive civilization we live in, the more important it is to have the backing and support of the group. Our lives depend on it. Therefore, we are programmed to care. It has a history, albeit a primitive one.
Peace
Peace
I worship god, and seek provision from him alone, no group can guide me, protect me, feed me etc.. i guess i am unique somewhat, have had a pretty crazy life.. in that i have had many different experiences that have lead me to my view, i once abandonned everything (this was before i worshipped god alone) an went out onto the streets, and lived rough for months off and on, hitchiking around our beautifull country. I realy learnt how God provides for us, and protects us, though i was surely attributing some of this to others at the time. i have always been quite a thinker, and have always prefered studying and reading books, learning etc and pondering some big philosophical questions, to socializing etc, so i guess i have become accustomed to everyone not realy being on the same page as me, so i learnt to ignore them all lol. now of course with me being a truster of the quran, and in a family of mostly christians, i have faced endless critisism, but i have refused to compromize, so i guess all in all, over my life i have just lost faith in humanity lol, so i had to find faith in God..
i dont buy this 'natural' science textbook material, i think God is clear that the natural inclination he created mankind on is to follow him, satan has just tricked many into becoming mindless cattle, or worse however
Peace
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Peace everyone,
The point Timoteus is that inthe matter of Ramadan nobody seems to know with certainty wht is intended in the Qur'an. Nobody as far as I knnow is following his or her own conjectures over what the Qur'an says but rather trying to ascertain what it is that it says. And the reason for that is that what is certain is that the current state fo affair is far from being satisfactory as to what indeed is itended in the Qur'an. To sugguest as you do hat there are some that are willing to follow their own conjectures instead os what the Qur'an says or to hear anybody's opinions over what the Qur'an says, seems to suggest that indeed YOU are sure of what the Qur'an says and therefore in a position to judge as mere conjectures or other's opinions what other people arrive at as the most satisfactory conclusion for their understanding. If you do have such certainty and self assuredness as to how and at which time of the year everywhere on the earth should be fasting upheld.
If you have such certainty make it clear to us so that we might all benefit, even if your opinion, finlaly would be just another's opinion and no better than anybody else and no guranty that you undertand the Qur'n on that count better than others.
Agreed with bold part of quote. This forum has been in existence for more than 10 years and many brilliant and extremely learned people have discussed this issue in various threads and still "the current state of affair is far from being satisfactory as to what indeed is itended in the Qur'an".
This is a "clear" contradiction with the multiple assertions of "clear" revelations (299, 1015, 1973, 2216, 2272, 241, 2949, 3443, 4525, 467, 579, 6511).
What exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
When exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
How many days is "sawm" according to clear revelations?
How to "sawm" and "salat" north of Arctic Circle according to clear revelations?
When are the "restricted shahr" according to clear revelations?What about other parts of the universe? (the messenger was sent to "the worlds" - 21107)
Or maybe "bayyanat" is misinterpreted as "clear"?
Or maybe the original text was clear and the codex arbitrarily chosen later on is the problem? giveupPeace
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Peace Zulf,
To whom was it revealed then, if not to everyone on Earth?
How do we define this group to whom it was revealed?
Is it to a certain people in time, or only certain people of a geographic region, or only to those who have the same climate, or only to beduins, or only to arabic speaking people, or only those at similar latitude regardless of longitudinal location???To whom was it revealed? What defines the group to whom it was revealed?
Perhaps it was only to the tribe of the messenger? In that case we should scrap it immediately as it then is both outdated and non-applicable to 99.999% of Earth's population.21107 And We have not sent you except as a mercy to the worlds.
21107It can be argued that "the worlds" can even refer to the entire universe.
Peace
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Peace
What exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
a month, known as ramadhan
When exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
if i told you to fast in july you would know exactly what i mean, its clear. However a thousand years from now, they might not have knowledge of when july is, or things could have changed
How many days is "sawm" according to clear revelations?
i dont know the answer to this, as i have not researched it properly, but again, prehaps it was well known, or a common practise in that time.
How to "sawm" and "salat" north of Arctic Circle according to clear revelations?
God tells us he does not wish us any hardship, and those who are unable to fast, or are able but with hardship, are exempt. and prehaps our understanding of salat, and its timings is inccorect. i realy do not know. prehaps it is simply a test, to see who would trust in God, he does warn us that there are verses open to interpretation, that only God and those who have the knowledge of, know the true meaning of
When are the "restricted shahr" according to clear revelations?
again, as i mentioned earlier, this was probably clear to the people of the time, and well known
What about other parts of the universe? (the messenger was sent to "the worlds" - 21107)
i think this is incorrectly interpreted, and my understanding is more that it means 'distinguished creatures' (i.e us human beings, who have been distinguished, and honoured above the rest of Gods creation, with our responsibilites, etc. i would be interested in learning the definition, using soley the morphology and the root meaning, and god willing will look into this.
Or maybe "bayyanat" is misinterpreted as "clear"?
Or maybe the original text was clear and the codex arbitrarily chosen later on is the problem? giveupmaybe. God knows best, and i would advise patience, and steadfastness, and seeking assistance with it, and the contact.
This life is just a test, and God tells us he is testing us as to which is best in deed. in this kind of situation, what is the best to do?
follow something we have no certain knowledge of?
God advises us not togive up and conclude it must be all false, or wrong, etc?
God tells us to trust in Him, and his revelations (PLURAL) (i think this is an often overlooked fact, as some people do not TRUST in Gods other revealed scriptures as he instructs us)conclude that prehaps WE are the problem, and the problem is our own understanding?
this is quite possible and i think likely much of the problemSomething else?
for you are your deeds and for me are mine, we are all subject to the same rules, life is a test.either way, we should seek Gods guidance. i dont have all the answers, none of us do, some of us have alot of understanding, some of us dont, but either way, Alhamdullilah i just recieved a reminder of a great and relevant proverb.
Proverbs 35-6 New International Version (NIV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.Peace.
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Peace everyone,
Agreed with bold part of quote. This forum has been in existence for more than 10 years and many brilliant and extremely learned people have discussed this issue in various threads and still "the current state of affair is far from being satisfactory as to what indeed is itended in the Qur'an".
This is a "clear" contradiction with the multiple assertions of "clear" revelations (299, 1015, 1973, 2216, 2272, 241, 2949, 3443, 4525, 467, 579, 6511).
What exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
When exactly is "shahr ramadhan" according to clear revelations?
How many days is "sawm" according to clear revelations?
How to "sawm" and "salat" north of Arctic Circle according to clear revelations?
When are the "restricted shahr" according to clear revelations?What about other parts of the universe? (the messenger was sent to "the worlds" - 21107)
Or maybe "bayyanat" is misinterpreted as "clear"?
Or maybe the original text was clear and the codex arbitrarily chosen later on is the problem? giveupPeace
As explained, my take is that it is the month of Ramadan completee that hsould be fasted, but that the month of Ramdan, due to the intercalation which was obviously, as asserted in the Qur'an applied at the time of revelation, made that the shahr always fell at the same time of the year, and that that part of the year was arud the autumn equinox.
As said, this placement of Ramadan would do away with all the problems resulting from the unpplicable length of the day or the night inmany parts of the earth when the month falls in the summer or the witer solstice and would eliminate excessive hardshi for people when the daylights are to long, and till due to duration, 30 days or so, be an effective mean of shaping mind and character.
After reading a lot and considering and experiencig a lot, I have reslved upon taking this understanding. Doing away with the intercalation months must have bee somethinng dne after the prophet and the result being that now more "experts" were needed for people to fast,more complications and more ppower to the religious business.
Salaam
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As explained, my take is that it is the month of Ramadan completee that hsould be fasted, but that the month of Ramdan, due to the intercalation which was obviously, as asserted in the Qur'an applied at the time of revelation, made that the shahr always fell at the same time of the year, and that that part of the year was arud the autumn equinox.
As said, this placement of Ramadan would do away with all the problems resulting from the unpplicable length of the day or the night inmany parts of the earth when the month falls in the summer or the witer solstice and would eliminate excessive hardshi for people when the daylights are to long, and till due to duration, 30 days or so, be an effective mean of shaping mind and character.
After reading a lot and considering and experiencig a lot, I have reslved upon taking this understanding. Doing away with the intercalation months must have bee somethinng dne after the prophet and the result being that now more "experts" were needed for people to fast,more complications and more ppower to the religious business.
Salaam
Peace, do you have evidence you could share for your understanding of ramadhan being at the autumn equinox?
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It is something about the rains I think in Qur'an butI cannot remember because at that time I wasn't worried about nor was I seeking about it.
What I mean is that it is not arbitrary, but I could not say where or when I got it. An easy way too would be to fix the start of the year at the time of revelation. If it was the winter solstice then, then since ramadan is the 9th months it would be precisely at time of the equinox.
On the other hand seeing tht God does not mean any difficulty for us and that he does order us to fast ramadan if we find that fixing it at other time of the year except for the other equinox, we do indeed have difficulties and more than difficulties impossibilities for many people, just by logic consideration we might come to the conclusion that either the spring equinox or the autumn equinox hould bethe best candidates
Salaam