Fasting in North Pole
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It is something about the rains I think in Qur'an butI cannot remember because at that time I wasn't worried about nor was I seeking about it.
What I mean is that it is not arbitrary, but I could not say where or when I got it. An easy way too would be to fix the start of the year at the time of revelation. If it was the winter solstice then, then since ramadan is the 9th months it would be precisely at time of the equinox.
On the other hand seeing tht God does not mean any difficulty for us and that he does order us to fast ramadan if we find that fixing it at other time of the year except for the other equinox, we do indeed have difficulties and more than difficulties impossibilities for many people, just by logic consideration we might come to the conclusion that either the spring equinox or the autumn equinox hould bethe best candidates
Salaam
Peace, and Gods mercy be with you.
Yes i will definately have to look into this,
I, prehaps ignorantly, thought that God choose this just to give us variety, as here (in NZ) we get days that vary greatly, and while the fast in a summers day is long, it is not unreasonably difficult, however now i do realize that for some places in the world, it would actualy be unreasonably difficult, if not impossible to fast in summer from sunrise to sunset,
i am curious also as to what the sun is actualy doing around the time of the autumn equinox in the arctic/antarctic, as in my (very linmited) understanding of what it does, it would just be travelling around skimming the horizon the whole time, and still not be rising or setting, though i dont know
peace
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Peace Timotheus,
i am curious also as to what the sun is actualy doing around the time of the autumn equinox in the arctic/antarctic, as in my (very linmited) understanding of what it does, it would just be travelling around skimming the horizon the whole time, and still not be rising or setting, though i dont know
You are right. The autumn equinox theory of shahr ramadhan also fails miserably at the North and South Poles. How would someone at South Pole in Antarctica fast? Please see
http//www.livescience.com/32814-arctic-daylight-darkness-myth-equinox.html
As you can see, there are many months of bright light, then many weeks of various twilights, and then many months of darkness and then again many weeks of various twilights.
Secondly, the autumn equinox theory was propagated by someone based on a completely false and fabricated meaning of "ramadhan" and pure conjecture. Now various members are innocently believing in that false "hadeeth". There is no quranic evidence of shahr ramadhan being at autumn equinox, just pure conjecture. The autumn equinox theory has already been comprehensively debunked by Ayman in past on this forum.
Please see the following for meanings of "ramadh" as per Lane's Lexicon
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000322.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000323.pdfPeace
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Now various members are innocently believing in that false "hadeeth".
Peace, i dont think there is such a thing as innoccently believing in any falsehood. if we dont verify things for ourselves, it is our own error. though may our God forgive us and have mercy upon us, and guide us to do better
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Peace Timotheus,
You are right. The autumn equinox theory of shahr ramadhan also fails miserably at the North and South Poles. How would someone at South Pole in Antarctica fast? Please see
http//www.livescience.com/32814-arctic-daylight-darkness-myth-equinox.html
As you can see, there are many months of bright light, then many weeks of various twilights, and then many months of darkness and then again many weeks of various twilights.
Secondly, the autumn equinox theory was propagated by someone based on a completely false and fabricated meaning of "ramadhan" and pure conjecture. Now various members are innocently believing in that false "hadeeth". There is no quranic evidence of shahr ramadhan being at autumn equinox, just pure conjecture. The autumn equinox theory has already been comprehensively debunked by Ayman in past on this forum.
Please see the following for meanings of "ramadh" as per Lane's Lexicon
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000322.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000323.pdfPeace
Yes, it indeed seems that there is no place on Earth where there is both darkness, twilight and sunset during any one day.
It could work with only darkness + twilight, but then sunset had to be out of the equation, and also it would not work at the same time of the year on the opposite pole.On a separate note just because the idea of autumn equinox was suggested based on a theory that was shown to be wrong, it doesn't automatically mean the equinox theory is wrong, if you understand what I mean. Also, the word meaning theory was not the only thing used to support the equinox theory (light was another). One may reach insights by mistake. That's how much of discoveries and inventions have come to be, and then the logical steps there are traced backwards. You can read about this from e.g. Edward de Bono.
A question
Is it reasonable that God's instructions would ask something that cannot be fulfilled?
If all you have during a day is twilight and sun-up then how does that fall into the category of "fasting but with difficulty"? How'bout if we are really determined and strong willed... still we cannot do it. It's not due to illness, or travel, or difficulty.I'm asking since people suggest we are dealing with an exceptional situation that needs to be handled as exactly that, an exception (like for illness...). I'm just trying to understand. If I'm stupid and fail to see the obvious, then perhaps someone could rephrase it a bit. So, exactly how does the sky light dilemma fall into the category of exceptions as given in the Quran? I mean, we cannot just pick something and call it an exception. The exceptions are listen in the Quran, and I don't seem to get how the sky light can be included there.
By the way, is Ramadhan supposed to be fixed with seasons, or not fixed with seasons? If Ramadhan happens at the same time across the globe, then why the fuss about the meaning of the word/name? It's not hot/summer all over the globe at the same time.
Peace
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Yes, it indeed seems that there is no place on Earth where there is both darkness, twilight and sunset during any one day.
It could work with only darkness + twilight, but then sunset had to be out of the equation, and also it would not work at the same time of the year on the opposite pole.On a separate note just because the idea of autumn equinox was suggested based on a theory that was shown to be wrong, it doesn't automatically mean the equinox theory is wrong, if you understand what I mean. Also, the word meaning theory was not the only thing used to support the equinox theory (light was another). One may reach insights by mistake. That's how much of discoveries and inventions have come to be, and then the logical steps there are traced backwards. You can read about this from e.g. Edward de Bono.
A question
Is it reasonable that God's instructions would ask something that cannot be fulfilled?
If all you have during a day is twilight and sun-up then how does that fall into the category of "fasting but with difficulty"? How'bout if we are really determined and strong willed... still we cannot do it. It's not due to illness, or travel, or difficulty.I'm asking since people suggest we are dealing with an exceptional situation that needs to be handled as exactly that, an exception (like for illness...). I'm just trying to understand. If I'm stupid and fail to see the obvious, then perhaps someone could rephrase it a bit. So, exactly how does the sky light dilemma fall into the category of exceptions as given in the Quran? I mean, we cannot just pick something and call it an exception. The exceptions are listen in the Quran, and I don't seem to get how the sky light can be included there.
By the way, is Ramadhan supposed to be fixed with seasons, or not fixed with seasons? If Ramadhan happens at the same time across the globe, then why the fuss about the meaning of the word/name? It's not hot/summer all over the globe at the same time.
Peace
Peace, you raised some valid points, at this time i cannot say, because i do not know, i am not ruling anything out or in at this stage, untill we have some clear evidence for or against it.
I think we should start by getting all the context relevant from the quran, and testing our theories against that, because as i mentioned in a previous post, many of us here (including myself) have fallen into arguing with conjecture, instead of a solid, and rational 'scientific method' of testing our theories against the quran..
albeit there are greater issues here, many of which lead one to the point of chasing their own tail it seems.
personaly, untill i have seen some solid confirming evidence for any particular view, i will not be following such things, though may my lord forgive me for my errors, and help me to fast an acceptable fast to him.Peace
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Peace, you raised some valid points, at this time i cannot say, because i do not know, i am not ruling anything out or in at this stage, untill we have some clear evidence for or against it.
I think we should start by getting all the context relevant from the quran, and testing our theories against that, because as i mentioned in a previous post, many of us here (including myself) have fallen into arguing with conjecture, instead of a solid, and rational 'scientific method' of testing our theories against the quran..
albeit there are greater issues here, many of which lead one to the point of chasing their own tail it seems.
personaly, untill i have seen some solid confirming evidence for any particular view, i will not be following such things, though may my lord forgive me for my errors, and help me to fast an acceptable fast to him.Peace
I agree.
Also, fallible as we are, full of weaknesses, things are not always so clear.
We should however strive and pray to advance in understanding and humbleness.
We are after all totally dependent on God for each and everything we can think of.
What we should do is to continue pondering and do our best to avoid bias, ego, assumptions and so on.
May God help us to help ourselves.
Peace -
I agree.
Also, fallible as we are, full of weaknesses, things are not always so clear.
We should however strive and pray to advance in understanding and humbleness.
We are after all totally dependent on God for each and everything we can think of.
What we should do is to continue pondering and do our best to avoid bias, ego, assumptions and so on.
May God help us to help ourselves.
PeacePeace, very well said, alhamdullilahi rabbil alameen
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I think an important step in order to understand what the quran is talking about is to analyse word "al-shahr".
As long as we insist that it means month/full moon/x number of days we will get nowhere, because those defintions simply don't make sense not only in the fasting verses but like in all the other verses were the word is used.
As far as I understand the verse, it is the shahr that we have to abstain from. -
Zulf I don't know if this will help but I found this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaGnoUEawwo
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I thought it was obvious I wa joking, like eating a month? or a moon?
Never mind.
Salaam
Peace,
In the context of the previous post where Bender was saying we should question what is shahr, i did not realize the first part was a joke, as i generaly find the subject quite a serious one.
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Bender? Abstain from eating shahr, you mean?
I swear I never ate a single bit of a shahr.
Salaam
The only reason why we still have our moon is because it's not a cookie, Cookie Monster would have not left a single bit of it.
http//toughpigs.com/uploaded_images/Moon.cookie-787439.jpg -
Peace,
In the context of the previous post where Bender was saying we should question what is shahr, i did not realize the first part was a joke, as i generaly find the subject quite a serious one.
And who says that serious matters do not enjoy some fun. My experiece is that whe one is able to undergo suffering or trouble and still joke about it one is more likely to come out of it saner than otherwise.
Salaam
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Peace
abstain (from eating)
i believe the part is brackets is an assumption, one which may or may not be correct.
Peace
Peace
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2185 ".... ...."
The red character "hu" refers to al-shahr.
That is what we have to abstain.--
2183
This verse is for ALL who "amanu".
Now this part
2184 "... ..."
Now IF "ta3aam" means "feeding" THEN we have a contradiction.
OR ta3aam does not mean feeding OR sawm has nothing to do with no eating/drinking.peace
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a famous proverb
"awal taam baad kalam"
meanings eat first then speak..
lol
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Peace
--
2185 ".... ...."
The red character "hu" refers to al-shahr.
That is what we have to abstain.--
2183
This verse is for ALL who "amanu".
Now this part
2184 "... ..."
Now IF "ta3aam" means "feeding" THEN we have a contradiction.
OR ta3aam does not mean feeding OR sawm has nothing to do with no eating/drinking.peace
Peace,
1926 "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
fasts are not only food!
however, you did miss a great part of context...
2187
2187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.
This verse contains clear proof. we are to fast. from al-fajr to al-layl
thus, in context...
2183
2184
2185
2186
2187
2183 O you who believe, fasting has been decreed for you as it was decreed for those before you, perhaps you may be righteous.
2184 A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if only you knew.
2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down, as a guide to the people and as clarifications of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who witness the month shall fast therein; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
2186 And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided.
2187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous. -
Zulf I don't know if this will help but I found this video https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaGnoUEawwo
Peace KFC,
thanks for the vid!In the case that the theory of the video is correct, it would make the impossibility to follow the fasting timings even greater as now the only time the fast is off is during darkness (not even twilight after sunset). And no valid exceptions (like illness or travelling) given in the quran.
However, I have one question regarding 3637, the verse that is used to define al-leyl/the night in the video
What does 'naslakhu minhu annahar' actually mean? 'We strip from it the day.'
What does this mean? To strip the day off from the it? It=leyl/night.
So, doesn't that mean that the day is first part of the night? Otherwise how can the day be stripped from it?
What is n-h-r?If nahar means day, or day light, or flow (as in flow of light), then the flow of (direct sun beams) end when the sun disc is below the horizon, but while it is still twilight.
I'm just thinking aloud. Just wondering what s-l-kh minhu al-n-h-r means. Arabic is supposed to be so very precise.
Help, anyone?Peace
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Peace,
1926 "So eat and drink and be content. If you see any mortal, then say 'I have vowed an abstinence for the Almighty, so I will not talk today to any of mankind.'"
fasts are not only food!
I believe fasts in the quran have nothing to do with diets.