Issue with Salat/ prayer
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Peace Imran.
Taking a shower and 56 are two different things.
56 Only gives us 4 things to do Face, arms, wipe hair( not wash!) and feet.
These are not what showering is. In fact if you only do these first thing in the morning for example, you do not get cleaned up properly.
It is not about cleaning ourselves it is about a specific instruction of getting ready for "Aquimi Salat" only.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
To date no one has answered this question and came up with a human origin. They claim Zoroastrians, Persians?.Or even before that time but with no evidence. If someone has evidence please show us?
I think it would be very difficult (impossible?) to find evidence such as the first person/group admitting in some preserved manuscript that they invented prayer. If one believes in a deity it would be common/natural to petition/praise it etc, no-one is disputing that.
Similarities of traditional prayer ritual to other religions, e.g. zoroastrianism has been discussed many times on the forum.
You shall Utlu/recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and Aquimi Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective. God knows everything you do.
I prefer a more accurate translation
You shall Utlu/recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and Aquimi Salat, surely* the Salat forbids** from/concerning the evil and the vice and/but surely the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do*indicates certainty of outcome
**requires relay of information, i.e. salat relays informationOne may say where is the verse/s that tells you exactly all the steps of how to do it?
Qoran has not left no inexplicable things . How much more details do we need for something as consistently preserved as salat?
Do we need to know the details of how to eat and drink, do other things that we learn by observation and see regularly from others?Difference between salat and eat/drink is that the former is related to salvation, thus important to elucidate
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm -
@ GL
shower is covering all things ( read the verse full).incase u are unable to take shower then atleast do these 4 things.but if u intercourse then better take shower.just see around you when people reached home from work they wash their hands and faces.
or when we start a community eating we also wash ourselves in washrooms.in cases like 7th century it was advisable to wash/wipe feets as well.even at this age people wash their feet when they takeoff their shoes. some people have nasty smell in their feet so God is telling them all adviseable things before they get embarrased by somebody/community.
and water/shampoo/soap/sand/soil are mediums for cleanings.
actually if u see the end of the verse its a advice for hygiene purpose. god like people who keep themsleves clean.
intresting thing to note when imp terms of quran like ?sala? mention people tend to care about things related with that concept. which is showing us how important hygiene plays a role in our lives. on other words its out duty to keep our body neat and clean and give our body a proper care.(kind of sala)
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Peace wakas.
You say, quote 1
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I think it would be very difficult (impossible?) to find evidence such as the first person/group admitting in some preserved manuscript that they invented prayer. If one believes in a deity it would be common/natural to petition/praise it etc, no-one is disputing that.
My answer
Still ,No history books have ever claimed its origin as man made. I have not come across any source that claimed its origin except Qoran. In here I am talking about "Aquimi Salat "not how you or I understand it to be.
Of course I happen to understand it as the clear contact prayer.
Do you mean no one is disputing a contact prayer to a deity?Yes I have read up everything I am aware of about Salat in this forum, including your take/issues on surah 9 with comparison to surah 8.
You also say, quote 2
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I prefer a more accurate translation
You shall Utlu/recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and Aquimi Salat, surely* the Salat forbids** from/concerning the evil and the vice and/but surely the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.My answer.
"From" doing can also mean stopping something as if it was forbidden. is also implied in my translation by forbids such and such...
Also the rememberance of GOD is connected to Aquimi Salat as per 2014
...Aquimi Salat for my rememberence.
Hence the translation I provided (through Salat),in my opinion which agrees in context.As for how clear it is to know what is the contact prayer ,everyone doing it is consistent with the format even non Muslims who do it (like Jews).
Anyone seeing someone doing the contact prayer will be able to recognise it like you recognise other instinctly taught things.
Thank you for your queries.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
To gain a better understanding of The System/Obligation, it is clear a better understanding of al quran would be required. That is why a regular/timed salat is given. In this regular/timed salat, reading / reflection / oration of al quran is prescribed. This can be done alone or in a group/community setting.
Thanks wakas
What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.
If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.
This regular/timed salat is only obligatory upon the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful), see 4103. Mumin is different to muslim. This is a very important point to consider.......
.......This makes sense because it is only the mumin (believers/faithful/trustful) who are upholding the scripture. For them, to uphold/maintain the going/turning towards (i.e. link/bond) will be more specific and thus directly related to what the scripture contains, hence reading of it regularly. In other words knowing what the bond entails goes hand in hand with its application.
That is also what I concluded from Quran and what you said makes sense. Your article about salat actually clarified many points for me.
God bless you.
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I have no doubt that what some call a "ritual" has not been invented by man.
Salaam GL
You have no doubt does not mean it is truth. Where is a detailed verse in Quran showing how to perform this ritual? In the absence of detailed clear instructions it cannot be a command from God in Quran.
Wrongly performed, abused and taken lightly by man ,then yes I agree.
It in self is the proof that this ritual was evolved otherwise it would have a unified procedure for every Quran follower.
First, according to my understanding from Qoran
Here is a clue to why "salat"The soul and Him who created it. Then showed it what is evil and what is good. Successful is one who redeems it. Failing is one who neglects it.
917-10
(and nafs is a witness that it has been made well
(
Then it has been given the ability to disintegrate (root fa-ja-ra means to disintegrate) itself or get protected.
Please think, the distinction of good or bad is not built in our nafs but it comes from God in the form of His guidance as told in 238238 ........so when guidance for sure come to you from me then who follows my guidance will have no fear on them and they will not grieve.
Then there is
You shall Utlu/recite what is revealed to you of the scripture, and Aquimi Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice. But the remembrance of God (through Salat) is the most important objective. God knows everything you do.Brother wakas has already suggested you an appropriate translation of this verse. Of course understanding Quran and then following it can forbid you from fahisha and munkir.
Taught by God to Abraham and passed down through the generations.
Not supported by Quran. It is following past generations blindly as no detail is given in Quran.
One may say where is the verse/s that tells you exactly all the steps of how to do it?
Qoran has not left no inexplicable things . How much more details do we need for something as consistently preserved as salat?
Do we need to know the details of how to eat and drink, do other things that we learn by observation and see regularly from others?When we are obsessed with something we get blinded and cannot see the truth. Please re-read and reflect what you are trying to say - equating ritual prayer with human instinct of eating and drinking.
God bless you.
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Also the rememberance of GOD is connected to Aquimi Salat as per 2014
...Aquimi Salat for my rememberence.Salaam Gl
2014
Surely I am Allah there is no god but Me so obey Me and establish the following for My "reminder".
Zikr is the Guidance given to us in Quran.
381
Saad and the Quran possessing reminder/guidance, is a witness.
159
Surely we sent the reminder/guidance and surely we to it, are protectors.
God bless you
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Peace Novice.
First
So you agree now Aquimi Salat is not "follow closely" as I believe you have changed your stance?This shows you have the courage to reflect , it is not a negative thing.
Here is my summary for you to ponder again brother about Aquimi Salat
Here is what Qoran teaches when you follow Qoran ALONE
- Islam is OLDER than the Qoran. Abraham was the founder of Islam as a religion with certain rituals and practices like Aquimi Salat, see 2278. All God's prophets, however, preached the same message, submission to God alone, and that is why Noah for example is described as a Muslim in the Qoran, 1072.
All and any rituals of Islam appeared in the Qoran ONLY From Abraham onwards.
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God is teaching us a very important principle in 237, After Adam sinned, he could not just repent on his own using his own words, or inventing his own ritual. "Then, Adam received from his Lord words, whereby He redeemed him. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
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All rituals of Islam -Salat included- were given to Abraham (not Muhammed). All these rituals are OLDER than the Qoran. Abraham and/or Ismail did not just invent their own version of Aquimi salat, zakat,... as the new Qoran alone brigades are doing .( Follow closely, unity, communion...etc)
They learned their lessons from Adam (237) and thus asked God to teach them the Manasik of Islam to get close to Him. In 2128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM"
As Abraham raised the foundation of beyt, together with Ismail, they prayed, 'Our Lord, accept this work from us; You are the Hearer, the Omniscient. Our Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants let there be a nation of Muslims to you; AND TEACH US HOW TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGIOUS DUTIES, and redeem us; You are the Redeemer, the Merciful'
And we granted him Isaac and Jacob as a gift, and we made them both righteous. We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to Aquimi the Salat and the Zakat. To us, they were devoted worshipers.
- God's system did not include that everyone of us will receive the message personally or receive the meaning/practice of Aquimi Salat personally or invent his/her own ways/ and practices, see 7452.
God taught these rituals and practices to Abraham and Ismail and they went around teaching the people what they were taught. God chose the right system to pass these rituals to us, pass it on from one generation to the next one.
If you trust in God you know He is perfect and knows the best system to achieve the fairest test, after all we are here in this life for a test. He knows that some of these rituals will be corrupted along the passing and He therefore sent messengers, prophets and scriptures to correct these rituals as needed.
When the Qoran was revealed, it corrected the parts of those rituals that had been corrupted over the years.
The mentioning of other names besides the name of God, the practice of Wudu, sexual relations during the fasting of Ramadan, were restored, just to mention a few examples.As we learn from 1664, only the duties that were/are/will be corrupted and disputed, were/are corrected in the Qoran.
We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.
Muhammed was told to follow the Millat/ religion of Abraham, see 16123.
God's system never change.
Whenever God spoke of these rituals and practices in the Qoran He used the definition "The" (AL in Arabic), therefore God is speaking in the Qoran about THE Salat, THE, Zakat, ...etc, and not A Salat, A Zakat, .... The reason is clear, all of them were already well known to Muhammed during His time and they are not just ANY Salat, ANY Zakat, ....They are the ones given to Abraham and Ismail when they implored God to teach them their Manasik. Look up the definition of THE in the dictionary.
Of course each are entitled to their own ways of understanding Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
You have to do what you think is right based on your understanding at the time, whilst continuing to study, and evolve your practice as your knowledge increases etc.
My personal understanding is here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmNote that some make the claim that "salat" is "following closely" ONLY without any regular/timed component but this is patently false as per Quran (e.g. 2238-239, 4101, 4103, 5106, 6210).*
In order to know what to apply/follow one must read/study the guidebook. Quite simply understanding and application go hand in hand. One is related to the other, and that is why (in my opinion) The Quran has taken a simple yet effective approach, see above article.
*Reference
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htmPeace, thank you for this Wakas, I've read through but I think I'll read it through again a couple of times to understand your point of view...
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Peace Good Logic,
I think I understand where you are coming from. We follow the religion of Abraham (since Islam existed even since Abraham was alive and Abraham even named us Muslims)...
However, since the Qur'an is fully detailed in regards to religious obligations (as I understand it), we find religious duties such as ablution, knowing God is one etc. clearly in the Qur'an...so we follow according to the DETAILS (whether they're long paragraphs or just short instructions) for whatever duty it is we have to obey...
Nevertheless, for the prayer and THE PRAYER ALONE, we are just supposed to TRUST what our ANCESTORS are currently practicing and GUESS that that is exactly how Abraham prayed (like the sunnis)??
'God taught these rituals and practices to Abraham and Ismail and they went around teaching the people what they were taught. God chose the right system to pass these rituals to us, pass it on from one generation to the next one.'
Isn't it only a guess that Abraham prayed the way we see sunnis pray (if that is what you mean by ritual prayers) because you did say it got passed down from generation to generation and most Muslism pray 5 daily prayers with certain certain units of prayers, they don't do what some Qur'an only Muslims do i.e. 2-3 prayers a day, less units etc. ...
If I can find the method of doing wudhu etc. why wouldn't I find the right way of performing/ doing salat within the Qur'an? Why would I need to look to past generations for this one religious duty whilst everything else is mentioned in the Qur'an? It wouldn't be fully detailed in regards to religious duties then...
I'm not sure if salat is actually performing the ritual prayers or reciting the Qur'an 2-3 times per day however if I were sure of it being the former, I would only use the verses from the Qur'an (since it is fully detailed about religious practices) to give me a picture of how to pray instead of copying what past generations do in terms of praying...
Coming to your point of no historical evidence that the ritual salat is man-made....I can show you one obvious possibility- it might have been invented by Bukhari himself (at least the 5 daily sunni prayers)...
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@ Good Logic,
'As we learn from 1664, only the duties that were/are/will be corrupted and disputed, were/are corrected in the Qoran.
We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.'
'To point out what they dispute' doesn't necessarily mean that God only mentions the duties that were corrupted...that wouldn't make sense because it would mean that we'd have to GUESS which duties were not corrupted. It would be more reasonable for God to just mention all the duties within the Qur'an....and since it is fully detailed, all the duties a believer has to obey are mentioned NOT just the ones that were were/are/will be corrupted and disputed.
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peace,
Quote from article
Salam
Your assumptions in Salat is minimum of 2x times must be according to Quran and totally researching what is night and Day according to Quran.... But night never starts at sunset and day never starts at sunrise.... That's beyond QURAN.... In my understanding ... Can you prove with Quran what is night and Day in another topic.... Rather than linking you article so people will have more to say.... If nahar and Lail is worked out with Quran and with nature then we can decide how many times the Salat is mentioned in Quran...
Appreciate your approach for more clarity and guidance... -
As Abraham raised the foundation of beyt, together with Ismail, they prayed, 'Our Lord, accept this work from us; You are the Hearer, the Omniscient. Our Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants let there be a nation of Muslims to you; AND TEACH US HOW TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGIOUS DUTIES, and redeem us; You are the Redeemer, the Merciful'
2234
Brother it has been discussed before. You have translated "MIN" to "of" whereas "MIN" means from. How can one raise foundation from a house?
God bless you.
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- All rituals of Islam -Salat included- were given to Abraham (not Muhammed). All these rituals are OLDER than the Qoran. Abraham and/or Ismail did not just invent their own version of Aquimi salat, zakat,... as the new Qoran alone brigades are doing .( Follow closely, unity, communion...etc)
They learned their lessons from Adam (237) and thus asked God to teach them the Manasik of Islam to get close to Him. In 2128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM"
Salaam GL
2234
and for every ummat we appointed munasik..........
2267
for every ummat we appointed their munasik
2141
these ummats have passed to them what they earned and to you what you earn and you will not be asked what they used to do.
What do you say brother in the light of above verses?
God bless you.
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Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)
That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.
And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.
She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.
Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences. -
Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)
That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.
And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.
She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.
Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences. -
Sorry about the double post before. Ignore everyone. Moderators please delete the last two posts some of the post got cut out I will redo here
Peace Sarah.
I will deal with this point of yours first, quoteIf I can find the method of doing wudhu etc. why wouldn't I find the right way of performing/ doing salat within the Qur'an? Why would I need to look to past generations for this one religious duty whilst everything else is mentioned in the Qur'an? It wouldn't be fully detailed in regards to religious duties then...
When GOD instructed the prophet to "Aquimi Salat" what did the prophet do? Where are the details of the claimants of different meanings of Aquimi Salat" like for example "reading Qoran two times " or....others?
GOD calls it "the Salat2 not an ambiguous salat. A specific well known something. to all these people hereBecause Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)
That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.
And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)
We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.
She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.
Something is referred as "The Salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.Let us have the details of this particular Salat-The Salat_ from Qoran.
It cannot be many different interpretation. It is one single well known thing that they all did!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Novice.
When we conversed about Salat you said it was "follow closely" .
However you said in this thread, quoteThanks wakas
What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.
If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.
This is what I meant by changing your stance.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Novice.
My understanding of Mansak,Manasik
Just we have some things different in the manasik, it does not mean "The Salat" is not common in some of them.
Actually, Islam to GOD ,is common in all of them even before Abraham.
Since Abraham "The Salat" is also common.As for they get asked about what they did, it is about accountability. Nothing to do with Salat as a common mansik.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
