Is Love an Illusion?
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Salaam sweet Br Jaxal,
Don't say this is because you can't get those women you longing for.
Love is both pleasure and pain.
Peace Sis Majidah
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SaLaM My Sweet Sweet Lovely Sister
Its the truth. I am not saying this out of my personel experiances. Ive seen this happen. I usually form my opinions by observing other people and resources. There is a hadith somewhere that one of Adam's son killed his brother over a love for a woman. Lollllllllllllllllll
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Salaam Sweet Br Jaxal,
I know people can do crazy things out of love, but I guess it is weak persons who do that.I mean a normal persons have obstacles who prevent him from doing such a crazy thing to kill someone out of jealousy.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace esimsek100,
Arranged marriages tend to last longer due to the respect that surrounds them.
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts.
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones.
...bragging a lot?? )))
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Hello Andya,
Not define love in precise terms, give an example case of 'unrequited love' as you understand it. The poem is too vague.
The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,Here is the anger.
How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.Trying to understand.
Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.Coming to terms with it.
Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.A glimmer of hope in coming to terms with Love.
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Regards,
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Hello esimsek100,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
I believe with the advancement of our morals and ethics that stronger bonds have been formed between family members.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
Sorry to dissappoint you but everyone is capable of manipulating the opposite sex. Some very minor examples, make-up, car, clean shaven, etc, etc, etc......
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone.This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
Regards,
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Peace all,
Peace Tay,
First off, I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. What I'm sensing is that your outlook on life is too spiritual (for me).
You seem to be able to differentiate the mind and soul, I can't because to me the soul doesn't exist as a seperate entity. The mind is the soul (for me).
And whatever doesn't follow rational logic does not make sense to me, actually I refuse to accept it. Everywhere I look I see rational logic in Allah's creations and that's why I cannot accept too much spirituality (emotions).
Peace Elena,
If that, that they last longer, is true, it could be also because in the cultures where arranged marriage is practiced, divorce is frowned upon. Besides "last longer" is not synonymous of success or good relationship.
True, but I meant it in a way where people grow in "love".
...bragging a lot?? )))
Well not really, only confirming that I've got personal experience to back up my argument. But if you consider it bragging, what you doing tonight? wink
Peace LoteTree,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of cancer in few months?
My reply was not in relation to someone with cancer.
My reply to someone with cancer was that after thousands of years of evolution we have changed, thus, possibly, resulting in stronger family bonds.
Once again strength in numbers, survival of the fittest.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
How can love and compassion make us human????
We are human even without love and compassion. Love and compassion are small parts of humans, definitely not the other way around. Art reflects emotions, not just love in particular. There's even arguments against religion which debunk marriage.
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
Who said you do it knowingly, who says I do it knowingly??? I'm talking about sub-concious, INSTINCTS.
Every single human has the natural instinct to find a mate, that is why the human race is thriving in numbers at this day and age. As far as the concept of some people finding loads of partners and some people not being able to find many partners, it's the case of practice makes perfect. But yet EVERYONE HAS THAT ABILITY.
This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
As I said to Tay, there is no soul, no spirit for me. Excuse my language but for me it's a load of BS.
For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.
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The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Well, it doesn't make me cry?
So on simplest level Unrequited Love is like loving the stars.
Here is a web definition for your scientific mind.
Unrequited love is love is that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired .
OK. I'll take that as your example. Unrequited love is like loving the stars.
Which, if taken at face value, has no survival value.
Although I can still try to stretch the adaptationist explanation You love the stars, which are balls of gas light-years away, because they are beautiful.
Because they are beautiful, they appeal to your innate tendency to love beautiful objects.
Now here is where I think my adaptationist explanation is overstretched The tendency to love beautiful is surely an adaptation, because individuals who love beautiful objects will tend to try to look for beautiful mates, and tend to produce beautiful children which are more desired by others, and therefore have a better chance to reproduce. I say overstretched because I don't know how a fondness for a beautiful mate can be stretched into a general sense of aestheticism. But a lot of animals have this aesthetic tendency for example, males of an Australian bird species builds elaborate nests, trying to attract the females. The nests themselves do not correspond directly to the males' fitness; it's just that the females have an aesthetic tendency.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
So you say. I appreciate your view you seem to be (or want to be) in an artistic field so I can understand your defense of imagination and intuition. You remind me of a friend of mine with sufist tendencies who talks of intuition all the time.
Note that I give more weight to empiricism (compatibility with evidence) and not logic. Even logic (or 'common sense') in science sometimes must be tampered by evidence.
Love is illogical and therefore will never conform to tests of empirical falsification. Therefore you can't discount love because it fails empirical tests. If you discount love in this way then you must discount God also.
You misrepresent me. I never said love should be discounted. On the contrary I think love, as an adaptation, is real. Just like our hands are real. I'm not in the 'everything-is-illusion' crowd.
Love doesn't fail empirical tests. People can show their love to whatever in visible ways kissing, giving support, sacrificing their live.
Beyond care and support in what way? And what makes it go beyond the general tendency to help others?
Care and support can be bought with money. And nurses get paid well. Love can't be bought with money Andya. In fact people have given up wealth and power for Love -)
What part of loving a terminally ill person goes beyond care and support then? I didn't get your drift.
As I have said I am still struggling to understand what Love is. So far I have come to this view that Love is not Sex. For me Love, on the simplest level, (if we just take the love between two individuals for instance), is about an intellectual and spiritual connection with a another individual. I would say Love is a meeting - no, not just meeting, but the coming together and joining of the mind, body and the spirit. And this love is not just about sex. Sex is the need of the body and can be done with anyone if you have little imagination (that?s what the vast majority of the people do on their Friday night?s out). Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
But on a deeper level, Love is an contemplation (theoria) of the Idea of the Good. And on deeper level still our human Love is just a pointer to the Divine Love. But I have not had any insights into Love on these levels yet. Perhaps we need to exhuast all our rational thinking before we have an insight into the the Divine Love.
So there you have it Andya. I think Love goes beyond any general care and support, love goes beyond any mere survival value of the family unit/pack. In fact Romantic Love seems to cause a lot of disruption, strife and grief in the family unit/pack! -) and also is the cause of many break-ups of the family unit/pack!
Well that's your opinion. I still think love is an elaboration of an assortment of adaptations such as aestheticism, lust, tendency to care and support, and sociability. Many people think that scientific explanations tend to devalue things, but I can't see why people would think so. Is it because science take out the mysteries and miracles people crave so much?
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Hello esimsek,
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of
cancer in few months?My reply was not in relation to someone with cancer.
My reply to someone with cancer was that after thousands of years of evolution we have changed, thus, possibly, resulting in stronger family bonds. Once again strength in numbers, survival of the fittest.Lets go over this again
You said
But see passing on genetics with that particular partner is there once again. The sub-concious has chosen the best vessel to pass down genetics.
and I said
How will you pass on your genetics when the person you "love" will die of
cancer in few months?Why would the subconscious choose a living-dead person to pass on your genetics? You would have thought sub-conscious would have chosen someone healthy?
But the cancer example defeats your "mechanistic" and "survival-of-the-fittest" view of humanity does it not? Your mehanistic view does not account for that does it? Yes, it is true natural selection has played it's part in our evolution. But something happended in our evolutionary past that set us apart from the rest of the Animal world. And I see Love and compassion is the thing that set us apart. Even as an animal we are very unique because we are not just our biology, we are not just our reason but we have imagination and intituition that allow us to go beyond all these things. And also there is something in us that that inspires us to create Art even though all art is useless. Why create a useless thing? There is also something in us that seeks meaning in our lives.
But Love as a theme have been celebrated as soon as we became recognisably human in our evolutionary past. We seem to also create Art and God's and religon at the same time. So perhaps Love and compassion made us into human?
How can love and compassion make us human????
We are human even without love and compassion. Love and compassion are small parts of humans, definitely not the other way around. Art reflects emotions, not just love in particular. There's even arguments against religion which debunk marriage.It is Love and Compassion that sets us apart from the rest of the Animal world does it not? Homo Sapiens are also homo-spiritual and homo-religious. We created Art at the same time we created Gods and religions. Art reflects human spirituality, even the primitive cave paintings depicts humanity's wonder at the world. The earliest Archeologoical finds have unearthed clay and stone statues depicting Gods and Goddess. It is through Art that human beings tried to make sense of this beautiful and yet terrifying world of ours, and also to come to terms with the death and tragedy of life.
Sorry to say I have never been interested in cars, make up etc and I have not knowingly manipulated the opposite sex for my own personal gain in terms of romantic liasons. Perhaps thats because I am ugly as sin?
Who said you do it knowingly, who says I do it knowingly??? I'm talking about sub-concious, INSTINCTS.
This is what you have written
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts. After being able to manipulate girls into "falling in love" with me, I now understand that love is all an illusion.
...and
And yes I have "preyed" on the younger ones, but I've also had my fair
experience with the older experienced ones. It can be manipulated.
and it is being manipulated by everyone.Now it is a sub-conscious INSTINCT for survival?
If love is INSTICT then you would not fall in love with the sick.But I say to you that SEX is the REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
But LOVE is not because LOVE is not SEX but SEX can be part of LOVE.Every single human has the natural instinct to find a mate, that is why the
human race is thriving in numbers at this day and age.I say that is a REPRODUCTIVE INSTINCT to find a mate.
As far as the concept of some people finding loads of partners and some people not being able to find many partners, it's the case of practice makes perfect. But yet EVERYONE HAS THAT ABILITY.
I say, LOVE is something that happens to you, it is not forced. It can't be
forced or manipulated. But Sexual Powerplay is open to manipulation. SEX is the thing that submits to your Supply and demand tactics. And this supply and demand tactic is played out every friday nights out by millions of people around the world.This is sexual power game. This is nothing to do with Love because Love is not sex. Sex is a bodily gratification. Sex is like a consumer product. You consume it and thats that. And the more you consume it, there more you want it just like any other consumer product. But lets not mix Sex and Love. Lets try to differentiate between the two. Romantic love does indeed have a sexual component but its not the "Be All" or "End All". But I say to you when you have Love Sex is not important. In fact sex can be discarded easily. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection esimket. Love is the need of the Soul. Love is the need of the spirit.
As I said to Tay, there is no soul, no spirit for me. Excuse my language but for me it's a load of BS.
Load of BS?
You speak like a congenitally deaf person who insists so vehemently that music is a fabrication of those that hear so that they can act out their temporary madness by moving their hands, legs and body about in a crazy way.You need to recognise that human beings are also spiritual animal esimsek. We are not just homo sapiens but also homo-spiritual. Our Idea of God and even Quran and other scriptures are borne out of spiritual experiences of human beings. To deny this truth is not rational.
But anyway I see you have run out of arguments.
Thanks for your contribution.For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind
controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.But that does not explain why people give up clothes, shelter and mating for Love does it? People even give up their life for love!
But that is the crux of the matter isn't it? Your "mind" can't explain away
Love can it? And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love. But one thing is for sure. Love is "experienced" it can't be grasped with your intellect nor can it be put into a simple "survial of the fittest" argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...Regards,
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Peace be up0on you SA,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
That movie is the best!!
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Peace Esimsek,
First off, I'm just going to have to say we should agree to disagree. What I'm sensing is that your outlook on life is too spiritual (for me).
Okie Dokie
You seem to be able to differentiate the mind and soul, I can't because to me the soul doesn't exist as a seperate entity. The mind is the soul (for me).
I have no problem with your understanding. To each his/her own. But if you ever decide to flirt with the idea, a good starting point would be to ask yourself "What part of the mind witnesses the mind?" No need to answer, just some food for thought.
And whatever doesn't follow rational logic does not make sense to me, actually I refuse to accept it. Everywhere I look I see rational logic in Allah's creations and that's why I cannot accept too much spirituality (emotions).
Again, no problem. I've been down that path and didn't find it fruitful. Perhaps you'll encounter different results. In either case, take care. It was nice chatting.
)>-
-Tay -
Peace LoteTree,
Why would the subconscious choose a living-dead person to pass on your genetics? You would have thought sub-conscious would have chosen someone healthy?
But the cancer example defeats your "mechanistic" and "survival-of-the-fittest" view of humanity does it not? Your mehanistic view does not account for that does it?
But see you're neglecting part of my answer.
STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
The person you usually feel sorrow for is either a relative or close friend. Someone who's part of your TRIBE, someone who benefits your survival.
In addition I've also stated that through years of evolution, humans have managed to place more important on bonds (between each other). This has, too, led to better survival practices.
The cancer example in no way defeats my "mechanic" view.
It is Love and Compassion that sets us apart from the rest of the Animal world does it not? Homo Sapiens are also homo-spiritual and homo-religious. We created Art at the same time we created Gods and religions. Art reflects human spirituality, even the primitive cave paintings depicts humanity's wonder at the world. The earliest Archeologoical finds have unearthed clay and stone statues depicting Gods and Goddess. It is through Art that human beings tried to make sense of this beautiful and yet terrifying world of ours, and also to come to terms with the death and tragedy of life.
No, it is through rationalising that humans have tried to make sense of this world.
First touching on homo-sapiens, which means the man who thinks.
That is what sets us apart, our minds.
Man used to worship the sun, then made idols to worship. Why? We feared the God's would destroy us (the setting of the sun scared early humans), once again SURVIVAL.
Cave paintings a log book, records of what they had done.
Now it is a sub-conscious INSTINCT for survival?
If love is INSTICT then you would not fall in love with the sick.But I say to you that SEX is the REPRODUCTIVE instinct.
But LOVE is not because LOVE is not SEX but SEX can be part of LOVE.Love is not an instinct, "love" is a by-product of the thousands of years old ritual of MATING.
What part of "we have evolved/changed throughout the thousands of years" don't you understand????
Love is nothing but a by-product. Remember we are homo sapiens, the man who thinks. Some even know us as the homo sapiens sapiens, the man who thinks he thinks.
Did our civilisation suddenly pop out of thin air? No, it took years of testing to find an answer. People have tried and failed, tried and failed. Love happened to be something that humans accepted.
We are fooled into believing "love", through TV, papers, magazines, movies, etc, etc...
It is not there. Peace is something that is very much a reality. Peace is something that is realistically attainable. But Love, love is like insisting on having a gold filling.
I say that is a REPRODUCTIVE INSTINCT to find a mate.
And Love is a by-product of this one small instinct.
You need to recognise that human beings are also spiritual animal esimsek. We are not just homo sapiens but also homo-spiritual. Our Idea of God and even Quran and other scriptures are borne out of spiritual experiences of human beings. To deny this truth is not rational.
And exactly what spiritual experiences are you talking about?????
The spirit is part of the mind.
There is no soul, there is no spirit, it is only the mind. It is simply electric signals running through your body.
Meditating is simply done by havingc ontrol of your mind and once this is acheived the rest of your body is at your will.
But that does not explain why people give up clothes, shelter and mating for Love does it? People even give up their life for love!
I honestly don't know what you're reading or what you're getting at. Where you quoted me-
For me there is only mind, mind over all matter. I do not desire, my mind
controls. I have only need, not want. Water, food, clothes, shelter, mating. That's it. My mind has control.How on earth am I speaking about other people???
I'm speaking about me, those people who give up their life for "love" have no rationality, have no control over their mind. Your emotions and body is a slave to your mind, it should never be the other way round. That is called ill-discipline.
But that is the crux of the matter isn't it? Your "mind" can't explain away
Love can it? And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love. But one thing is for sure. Love is "experienced" it can't be grasped with your intellect nor can it be put into a simple "survial of the fittest" argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...Oh don't you worry I've logically explained love away, but you just have been off in your own little world, not wanting to understand what I've been telling you. You pick pieces out of my argument and mix and match with other pieces of my argument that have nothing to do with it.
And finally your words of -
And as I said before even honest atheist find it hard to discount Love.
argument because Love is not logical just like belief in a God is not logical...
Many atheists dismiss God because it is not logical. Using your reasoning, hence they dismiss the notion of love.
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SaLaM
Love is like weed. Both are bad for you. Both give false sensations. Thts what has got a lot o you confused.
OO bro!! dont blame weed for love..((.. I like weed DD
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Peace be up0on you SA,
"Love" is just a word....what matters most is the connection.
That movie is the best!!
damn ur right..D and I think it makes lot of sense..
peace
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The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Well, it doesn't make me cry?
Then you already understand what unrequited love is Andya! -)
Therefore, as the poet said, "let me be the more loving one"...OK. I'll take that as your example. Unrequited love is like loving the stars. Which, if taken at face value, has no survival value.
Yes that's correct. Just like loving a cancer patient has no survival value in passing your genes.
Although I can still try to stretch the adaptationist explanation You love the stars, which are balls of gas light-years away, because they are beautiful. Because they are beautiful, they appeal to your innate tendency to love beautiful objects.
As John Keats wrote "A thing of beauty is joy forever" -)
But don't forget "Loving the Stars" is a metaphor to convery a deeper truth that can't be put into a mere discursive language since Love is a very subjective experience.Now here is where I think my adaptationist explanation is overstretched The tendency to love beautiful is surely an adaptation, because individuals who love beautiful objects will tend to try to look for beautiful mates, and tend to produce beautiful children which are more desired by others, and therefore have a better chance to reproduce. I say overstretched because I don't know how a fondness for a beautiful mate can be stretched into a general sense of aestheticism. But a lot of animals have this aesthetic tendency for example, males of an Australian bird species builds elaborate nests, trying to attract the females. The nests themselves do not correspond directly to the males' fitness; it's just that the females have an aesthetic tendency.
Good try Andya, you may have a point -)
Here is an article in the newscientist magazine that seems to go against what you are saying -)
http//www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1239
Mate selection is a SEXUAL INSTINCT. Love is not because LOVE is not SEX.
And don't forget that imagination and intuitions are restricted by evidence science. People can make all sorts of crazy theories but they must survive tests of empirical falsification.
But without that initial imaginitive and intuitve leap those breathroughs may not have come about. Logic is wonderful thing Andya. Using logic you can make a an elephant dance on a pin-head. This is the Greatness of logic but also perhaps it's greatest flaw. Never underestimate the power of imagination and intuition because they allow you to "see" beyond logic.
So you say. I appreciate your view you seem to be (or want to be) in an artistic field so I can understand your defense of imagination and intuition. You remind me of a friend of mine with sufist tendencies who talks of intuition all the time.
I trained as scientist Andya. While you studied science at cell level and mandibles of termites, I studied the science at the atomic and molecular level - from the biomolecular reactions of photosynthesis to the molecular basis of elasticity in condoms -) I stride and embrace both fields Andya The realm of the imaginations and intuitions and also the realm of Science and Reason. Realm of the subjective experience and the realm of the objective facts.
And just as I understand the elasticity in condoms, I also try come to terms with the irrationality of LOVE.
And Sufis do not deny Reason Andya. In fact they value reason highly. The sufi concept of "fana" is "intellecutally" more satisfying and is also in tune with the yearning of our soul.
Note that I give more weight to empiricism (compatibility with evidence) and not logic. Even logic (or 'common sense') in science sometimes must be tampered by evidence.
That is good chap. But don't forget to win that Nobel Prize, you must be prepared to make the intuitive and imaginitive leap into the unknown so that you can bring new Truths to the world -)
What part of loving a terminally ill person goes beyond care and support then? I didn't get your drift.
Love is more than care and support Andya. Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection with an another individual.
Well that's your opinion. I still think love is an elaboration of an assortment of adaptations such as aestheticism, lust, tendency to care and support, and sociability.
You may have a scientific explanations for love as an adaptive behaviour but Love it seems to go beyond these things. There is much more.
Many people think that scientific explanations tend to devalue things, but I can't see why people would think so.
On the contrary, I believe scientific explanations never devalues things rather it makes it more fascinating for me. But I believe scientific explanations are limited to the realm of the material whereas Love and spirituality is an subjective experience. And truth of this subjective experience it seems can only be conveyed through Art, Poetry and Music.
Is it because science take out the mysteries and miracles people crave so much?
Perhaps. But that's not the only reason. Science is limted to the material world and that its limitation. That is why human beings like music a lot because music (like all art) takes us beyond the world of the rational.
Regards,
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Greetings to all members of this forum!
In theory, love and hate are the two opposite poles of the same continuum just like lightness is to darkness. Love?s dimensions (degrees) are immeasurable just like lightness. Hate, as is the case with darkness, has none and only raises its ugly head in the absence of love.
We often mix our heightened stages of emotions, needs (physiological and motives) with love and come up with our own notion of ?love-salad?. On the surface level, we see love as the heightened stages of our emotions. That?s why someone in this forum earlier said
Love... its such an ambiguous word. We love our parents, we also love our cars. We love our house. We love our kids. We love our spouses. We love the sky. We love the angels. I love KFC. I love my honda. I love the night sky when its dark and raining. I love the stars. I love mountains. I love kittens and puppys. I also love the smell of my mom's cooking. I love the morning air. I love dance music. I love God. I love maltezers.
Love is an abused word. People stick it anyones face without thinking twice. I did it. So i know. Frankly, the meaning of Love is lost. Its just another word. Nothing special. People are stuck on the drama and movies where the hero will destroy whole armies just to get to his girl. Its a fantasy. Love is a poor man's dream and hope. Nothing more.
But what we know about love is a drop and what humanity need to explore are oceans (unconditional love). In the words of Rumi
Looking at my life
I see the only Love has been my soul?s companion.
From deep inside my soul cries out
Do not wait, surrender for the sake of love.
Are you searching for your soul?
Then come out of your prison.
Leave the stream and join the river that flows into the ocean.
Absorbed in this world you?ve made it your burden.
Rise above this world, there is another vision?He then points us
Peaceful is the one who?s not concerned with having more or less.
Unbound by name and fame
His free from sorrow,
from the world, and mostly from himself.
You know what love is?
It is all kindness, generosity.
Disharmony prevails when you confuse lust with love
While the distance between the two is endless.Obviously the concept of love is relatively studied and tested by social scientists and we know the psychological basis of love, i.e. passionate vs compassionate. However, very little is known abut "unconditional love". When certain Buddhists were encountered by the Muslim invaders in the East, they accepted death with smile because it was against their philosophy to even hate their enemy at the time when they were beheaded. For them this was an ultimate test of "unconditional love". So my question is, how can we, then, define such love (unconditional) which neither falls into the hedonistic/selfish nor compassionate repertoires of human nature?
Peace!
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SaLaM
I was watching Cheaters yesterday. There was a man who suspected that his gf was cheating on him. Turns out, she was cheating on him with the guys NEPHEW!. When he confronts the nephew, the nephews goes " Love know no boundry".
So there you go. Love is the stupidest joke ever. The world is just too involved in this whole idea of "The ONE" or "Love At First Sight" . Eat a box of chocklate and u just experianced love. Lolllllllllllll
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LoteTree,
The poem is too vague? The Poem made me cry!
Well, it doesn't make me cry?
Then you already understand what unrequited love is Andya! -)
Therefore, as the poet said, "let me be the more loving one"...If by confusion you mean understanding, then I understand, because I am confused by the poem. You have a strange criterion of understanding, then.
OK. I'll take that as your example. Unrequited love is like loving the stars. Which, if taken at face value, has no survival value.
Yes that's correct. Just like loving a cancer patient has no survival value in passing your genes.
Note that you still cannot understand that loving a terminally ill patient (in your understanding of 'love' whatever that is, which does not include care, support, and lust) is just an extension of a general ability to care.
Although I can still try to stretch the adaptationist explanation You love the stars, which are balls of gas light-years away, because they are beautiful. Because they are beautiful, they appeal to your innate tendency to love beautiful objects.
As John Keats wrote "A thing of beauty is joy forever" -)
But don't forget "Loving the Stars" is a metaphor to convery a deeper truth that can't be put into a mere discursive language since Love is a very subjective experience.I know that. I just take it at face value because it is the example you offered. If you want me to understand it differently you should've offered a clearer interpretation.
Now here is where I think my adaptationist explanation is overstretched The tendency to love beautiful is surely an adaptation, because individuals who love beautiful objects will tend to try to look for beautiful mates, and tend to produce beautiful children which are more desired by others, and therefore have a better chance to reproduce. I say overstretched because I don't know how a fondness for a beautiful mate can be stretched into a general sense of aestheticism. But a lot of animals have this aesthetic tendency for example, males of an Australian bird species builds elaborate nests, trying to attract the females. The nests themselves do not correspond directly to the males' fitness; it's just that the females have an aesthetic tendency.
Good try Andya, you may have a point -)
Here is an article in the newscientist magazine that seems to go against what you are saying -)
http//www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1239
Mate selection is a SEXUAL INSTINCT. Love is not because LOVE is not SEX.
You missed an important point in the article The 'ugly' fish survived because they are superior in fitness. Hence the survival value of preferring these guys over the better looking.
You say mate selection is a sexual instinct. I think it is. And mate selection incorporates aestheticism. So aestheticism is part of the sexual instinct.
You say love is not sex. Earlier you also say that love is not care and support. So if we take out care, support, sex, and aestheticism, then what is this version of love you're trying to explain to me? But chances are you'd back out form explaining by saying it's subjective anyway.
And Sufis do not deny Reason Andya. In fact they value reason highly. The sufi concept of "fana" is "intellecutally" more satisfying and is also in tune with the yearning of our soul.
To talk about Sufis would be off-topic but let's say my sufist friend doesn't give that impression. He talks philosophy and science but his reasoning fails at supporting his sufist ideas.
Note that I give more weight to empiricism (compatibility with evidence) and not logic. Even logic (or 'common sense') in science sometimes must be tampered by evidence.
That is good chap. But don't forget to win that Nobel Prize, you must be prepared to make the intuitive and imaginitive leap into the unknown so that you can bring new Truths to the world -)
And don't forget that Nobel Prize winners are the ones whose intuitions and imaginations happen to pass empirical tests. I'd say for every one confirmed hypothesis there are hundreds who are more imaginative but rejected because they fail at empirical tests.
What part of loving a terminally ill person goes beyond care and support then? I didn't get your drift.
Love is more than care and support Andya. Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit. Love is an intellectual and spiritual connection with an another individual.
Can I say it's part of a tendency to socialize then? Esimsek got it right, humans survive by living in groups. If individuals have a tendency to group, however it came to be, then they will make and stay in groups, where their chances of survival is higher.
Well that's your opinion. I still think love is an elaboration of an assortment of adaptations such as aestheticism, lust, tendency to care and support, and sociability.
You may have a scientific explanations for love as an adaptive behaviour but Love it seems to go beyond these things. There is much more.
Which is? What's more?
Many people think that scientific explanations tend to devalue things, but I can't see why people would think so.
On the contrary, I believe scientific explanations never devalues things rather it makes it more fascinating for me. But I believe scientific explanations are limited to the realm of the material whereas Love and spirituality is an subjective experience. And truth of this subjective experience it seems can only be conveyed through Art, Poetry and Music.
Hence the futility of discussing these, right? At least for questions that can be answered by science, we know there is a final correct answer. Discussions over subjective things (religion, etc.) cannot be settled this way because of subjectivity.