the reading(quran) is not the title of any book

Jaxal

SaLaM

Weather there is one page, one verse or one surah. It is ALL part of the THE BOOK. Idolfree, what you are saying MIGHT be right if that was all that was revealed. ONE page, ONE surah or ONE verse.

phoenix1

Peace all

I completely agree with Idolfree1. And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.
From what I understand is that,

God has created the universe.
God has given us a brain.
God has given us the internet.
God tells us to use our brain to study the universe.
the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.
That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.
What defines the term "book" anyway. What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.
Pakistan Killed England in the test series.
The Quran means "reading"
The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"

Jaxal

SaLam Phoenix

The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"

Thats the problem with taking things to be symbolic. It can mean anything. Usually something which suits the understanding of the user.

Pakistan Killed England in the test series.

Loooooollllllll. I miseed that in Ayman's article but did hear on SkyNews loooll

phoenix1

Peace Jaxal

But the thing is, the "kitaab" isnt 1 particular book. So it has to be any book. Which means the reading of the kitaab, the "Quran," can be the reading of anything. So although they are symbols, we can find out what they represent with logic.
Like when Allah "talks" in the Quran. Or when He "sends down" something. He doesnt actually talk or send down. So those would be symbols. But we know what they mean.
the more we know about this world, the more we'll be able to understand the symbols in the Quran. And whether some things were symbols or not doesnt matter because that isnt important.

And Pakistan lost the first ODI. cry

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Pheonix,

And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.

Fantastic isnt it?

Makes the issue very clear.

phoenix1

peace

sure does. I wish my parents would understand.

unknownuser

God has given us the internet.

Peace

why the internet only?, what about the mobele phones, cars, TVs, CD players, Radio waves

and what about the generations prior to the seventies?, they missed out?

the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.

no evidence provide but hearsay and conjesture, the Quran is a book and it says this about itself as I will show you later in another comment, and that is our proof

so the people who say the Quran is a book, has provided clear proofs from the Quran that it is a book

the ones who says it is not a book, provided nothing but hearsay and conjesture

That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.

haha that is really funny, thanks bro for the laugh, well it is crazy to say the Quran is not a book, because it says it is a book and it looks like a book for a 5 years old child if you ask him

you see if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck

now you said this "Because the Quran is definitely not a book."

this is funny bro, true mate without any offence, what you concluded is like this the Quran is not a book, because definately it is not a book, well how can i work this out please?, can you elaborate by providing some compelling evidences?

What defines the term "book" anyway.

well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school

so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic

What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"

In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"

Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.

wrong, the guidance is complete in the 114 suras in a book called the Quran, and that guidance is what we need only to pass the test and yet most people don't even follow 10% of it, then how come you want more guidance?, just follow what is sent befaore you ask for more guidance

The Quran means "reading"

Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading

Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE

peace

Fahad1

phoenix1 wrote
11. The Quran means "reading"

AhmedBaghat wrote
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading

Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE

salam . is everyone in agreement ?

Fahad1

What defines the term "book" anyway.

well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school

so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic

What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"

In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"

salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Kyle,

I have a respect for your insights but I think you've gone to an extreme here. There's no way al-quraan validates your view because al-quraan is not al-kitaab. Al-quraan is tafseel or detailling of al-kitaab (10/37). Therefore logically, it cannot be al-kitaab. Al-quraan is called 'hadha' (also 10/37) but al-kitaab is called 'dhalika'. One is 'this' and the other is 'that'. and so not the same at all. Al-quraan is al-haqq but al-kitaab is BIL-haqq, So man, im very sorry but there's no validation for your theory here.

unknownuser

salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please.

Salam bro

Absolutely bro, and I'm writing an intense comment that will explain some of the arabic grammar basics that add some light to this point better

"Ka Ta Ba" = "to write" past tense

"Kitab" = "Maktoob" = "Something documented on paper" = "A book"

"Kitabah" = "Writing"

"Kotob" = "Books"

"Katib" = "A Writer"

"Yaktibo" = "To write" present tense

and that is all the arabic words as far as I believe which can be derived from "Ka Ta Ba", please feel free anyone to add any further arabic words derived from "Ka Ta ba" if there is any left

peace be with all

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,

Kutub can't only mean 'books', mate. Check out 'fihaa kutubun qayyimah' (98/3).

unknownuser

Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,

Kutub can't only mean 'books', mate. Check out 'fihaa kutubun qayyimah' (98/3).

Salam Alikom brother

welcome back, you have been missed indeed

I agree bro, Kutubun also meaans many things that is documented, i do believe verse 983 means by "Fihaa Kutubun qayyimah" means what is written in the Quran is of a very high values, the plurer was used as an indictaion to the many things of a high value that are documented in the Quran

Peace be with you man,

Wakas

The following thread was good

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2670

Fahad1

just what Ahmed said

The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit

for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?

I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?

how would "part of my book" sound after the book will be complete . the complete book refering to itself as "part of the book" ?!

salam.

by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.

Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun.

who informed you about abraham ? Quran or the universe ?

If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?

If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?

If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?

does the universe tell us the punishment of adultery(for example) ? do stars,moon and sun tell us? does the Quran tell us ?

salam idolfree .

and did u check out this article
Koran and Self Reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htm

i m waiting for a response roll

unknownuser

Peace be upon yu Saladin,

I have read the article, but I was very disinterested. What were you presenting this article to prove?

Fahad1

Peace be upon yu Saladin,

I have read the article, but I was very disinterested. What were you presenting this article to prove?

salam .

i was trying to prove that "Quran" means the 114 chaptered book , not the 'reading of universe' . u see (i quote from the article) ...

Self-reference takes into consideration the "use" and the "mention" of words. When you "use" a word, it is the meaning of the word that is implied. When you "mention" a word, you are talking about the word and not its meaning. Every sentence can thus talk about the words it is using or the meaning of the word. As an example If I say, " Youth comes before manhood," it would be logically incorrect unless specified. The reason being that in the dictionary, "Manhood (the word and not its meaning)," comes before "Youth (the word)." Since the Koran talks about numerous things and uses many words sometimes repeating them many times, if the author of the Koran was a man or group of men we should find many opportunities to find such logical errors of self reference in the book. However we find something amazing when we apply the self-reference check.

If I said, "There is a mistake in the Bible,"to a crowd of pastors, there would be a great uproar and people would respond with emotion, "No there is no mistake in the Bible. Show us a mistake." I could logically show a mistake in the book by reading a passage like, "David made a mistake?" See, the word "mistake" is in the Bible. Now if the Bible were to say, "There is NO mistake in this book," it would be falsified and disproved logically, by that example. This is no trick; it involves delicate matters of logic. However, safely for now the Bible never makes such a claim, but the Koran does!

"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482

The meaning of the statement (use of words) is clear. Considering the nature of the Book and its diverse topics and areas of discussion, if the Book had a human origin, it should be easy to find discrepancies in it. If we consider the "mention" of the words a different picture emerges. Let us see if the Koran passes its own falsification test on the criteria of "self reference" using the "mention" of words.

In the "mention" of the word contradictions (Ikhteelafun), the meaning that emerges is; if the book had a human origin it should contain many (Kathirun), Ikhteelafun (contradictions, the word). Many denotes more than one. To check how many times the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)" occurs in the Koran, we make use of the index of every Arabic word in the Koran. Due to the work of Faud Abd al Baqi, we possess such an index of the Koran today, titled, Al- Moojam al Mofahris.

Indeed the author of the Koran is aware of self-reference and the Koran passes the test of the "mention" of words as the word "Ikhteelafun (contradictions)," is just mentioned ONCE in the whole Koran in this particular verse. Not many (Kathirun) times, but only once.

i will summerize my point here

"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482

let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not

does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .

salam.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

i
will summerize my point here

"Do they not consider the Koran with care. If it had been from anyone other than God, it would contain many (Kathirun) contradictions (Ikhtelaafun-)." Koran 482

let us see whether the "Koran" in the above verse means 'the 114 chaptered book' or not

does the 114 chaptered book contain many occurances of the word "Ikhtelaafun" ? no . the word occurs only once in the 114 chapters . the '114 chaptered book' passes the test . "Koran" in the above verse means the 114 chaptered book . "Koran" is the title of this book .

Brother, in life we have stories(hadith) that come to us, we read them as we do ALL CREATION(Al kitaab) in order to verify if it is false story or The God's story(hadith). Any story that has contradictions is not from the God. This is how we figure out Universal Law.

The above evidence you gave does not verify anything, it assumes a position then tries to defend it.

mquran

Brother, in life we have stories(hadith) that come to us, we read them as we do ALL CREATION(Al kitaab) in order to verify if it is false story or The God's story(hadith). Any story that has contradictions is not from the God. This is how we figure out Universal Law.

The above evidence you gave does not verify anything, it assumes a position then tries to defend it.

Kyle, if someone came to you and said 'dude, i just killed a guy', there's no internal contradiction there. What universal law can you deduce from that?

Im sorry but your interpretation's not fitting in with the quran here. Al-quraan is very self-referential, which is why, despite artificial linguistic conventions, it refers to itself as 'this THE quraan' (hadha AL-quraan, 10/37).

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MQ,

Kyle, if someone came to you and said 'dude, i just killed a guy', there's no internal contradiction there. What universal law can you deduce from that?

There is a difference between a factual statement and what we call "truth". Truth deals with relationships. For example, one cant say "what is the truth"? They must ask, "what is the truth regarding x".

But the answer is not facts about X, Truth would deal with how x relates to other things. Laws are what we are after.