Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?

Navid

Peace

Enquirer, do you not see my posts? It seems you are the one that avoids posts that refute your claims, and then you go on to insult.

Peace all. Whoever wants to say im avoiding this or that or whatever... well thats fine,thats your opinions... I have posted the contradictions,and if i see anybody refute them properly then i will discuss or accept their findings. I reserve the right to discuss with people i want to...No compulsion in the deen hey. Wink

So you claim something, then when someone wants to discuss it with you, and you don't like what they said, you can just decide not to discuss it with them, correct?

You say you're open-minded - now tell me, is the above quote really open-mindedness?

Are you really here to discuss things? Please, be honest with yourself.

Once again, I kindly posted about the topic you brought forth - 262 and 569 being in opposition with 319 and 385. I will quote again.

Peace all

I'd like to talk about 262 and 569 being 'in opposition' with 319 and 385, as enquirer mentioned.

Absolutely, these are not in opposition with each other. In fact, arranging them together is a very good idea.

Since enquirer failed to even bring forth the actual verses, I'll post the literal translation. Let's look at 262 and 385

That those who believed and those who repented/guided/Jews , and the Christians and the Sabians/converts , who believed with God and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and made/did correct/righteous deeds, so for them their reward (is) at their lord, and no fear/fright on them, and nor they be sad/grieving.

And who desires/wishes other than the Islam/submission/surrender (as) a religion, so (it) will never/not be accepted from him, and he (is) in the end from the losers.

Looking at 385, we can ask "What is considered Submission? What do I need to do to be a Submitter?"

And 262 clarifies that; to be a Submitter, one must

Believe in God
Believe in Resurrection Day
Do righteous deeds

So the Christians, Jews, etc. who believe in God, Resurrection Day, and do righteous deeds, are indeed Submitters. The same goes for 319 and 569. It is that simple.

It's amazing how to one person, these two verses are 'in opposition with each other'; while to another person who is sincere to the Qur'an, one verse helps clarify the other.

Enquirer, I'd greatly appreciate you engaging in an actual discussion with me about this. I'd be very happy to do so. From what I've seen so far, you have claimed something, then when someone wanted to discuss your claim, you avoided it and insulted them. It seems you aren't here for discussion; but perhaps for other reasons. Huh

God willing, you'll actually start discussing. After all, this is a forum.

Peace

I don't see what's holding you back from responding.
You claimed something.
I responded.
You - for some reason - avoided, insulted, and said "if i see anybody refute them properly then i will discuss or accept their findings. I reserve the right to discuss with people i want to"

An open mind, indeed. -\

If you were actually open-minded and actually wanted to have a discussion, you would have done so by now. Oh well.

I'll be waiting for your next insult.

Peace for now.

bmbmm

Salam eq,

The Quran is not a scientific book, there are some scientific facts in it, however. I think salat is the contact, commitment and hajj in debate/consultation, according to my understanding. We just need to apply logic to the Quran and things gets clear ;D

arnoldyasin

Peace,

It is science.........science on the truth........So that includes phenomena in nature, societies and individuals......Quran is the most pure science i have ever come across..

agentxxx

Peace brother Ahmed,

The other person wrote

Peace AB,

Quote from AhmedBahgat
I found it very strange that you just keep posting masses of alleged contradictions without responding to the others who tried to help you out, at least say anything that indicate that you read it, anyway it is up to you to read it or not

This is what happens when the other person...
(a) had no intention of learning or finding out the truth
(b) had a previous agenda (note one of my first posts to him was asking this very question)
(c) is here to preach his own religion or lack of
(d) all of the above.

This is the common psyche of the person who..
Thinks only he has found the truth
Has a fix agenda of a narrow-minded approach
Thinks he is all-knowing
Is among those in the below

Have you not considered THOSE WHO ATTRIBUTE PURITY TO THEMSELVES? Nay, ALLAH PURIFIES WHOM HE PLEASES; 449.

The other person wrote

I commend your patience and perseverance to still answer the "contradictions" in detail, knowing they will not be addressed and that the other party will still claim you posted "nothing".

I too commend your patience and perseverance in answering the ?contradictions in detail.

Peace .

agentxxx

peace brother Ahmed,

you wrote

found it very strange that you just keep posting masses of alleged contradictions without responding to the others who tried to help you out, at least say anything that indicate that you read it,

My reason for not responding

Sister s-c- Did u read my previous post?
YES I HAVE READ IT NOW, thank you very much for taking time to explain sis
ITS ALMOST 330 IN THE MORNING, brother Ahmed just got up, good morning bro and have a nice day. as for me I THINK ITS BETTER TO GO TO SLEEP BEFORE I AGAIN MIX UP REPLIES
bye.
God bless you sis,
peace.

I hope now you understand why I didn?t responded and if you look at the time these replies were posted there is a difference of 10 minutes only and the reply of sis s-c has couple of links which I couldn?t read at that time.

Also when the discussion becomes emotions and brothers and sisters start calling each other ?the enemy of God? ?The enemy of the Quran? ?the enemy of islam? or doubt your beliefs/intentions what is there to discuss?

brother Ahmed wrote

anyway it is up to you to read it or not, but please be aware that you are contributing indirectly to a SICK PROPAGANDA AGAINST YOUR RELIGION that you should be proud of, I?m not saying that you should not raise any concerns, in fact I encourage you to do, BUT THE WAY YOU ARE DOING IT IS NO DIFFERENT TO THE ENEMY OF YOUR RELIGION, I just thought I mention that to you as a brother, now I hate responding to masses of alleged Quran contradictions in one comment, this is silly indeed and only causes confusion and requires a lot of work, so I chose one of the alleged contradictions in your last comment to sister Nadia and will respond to it, of course I chose the easiest one that raised my eye brow which I responded to over a year ago somewhere but could not find my comment

Bro if you had read my post to sis s-c, you would have known the reason why I posted these alleged contras, and they are all over the net bro, ALL OVER THE NET? But even then because I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION TO HURT THE FEELING OF OTHERS or to be associated with the enemies of my religion etc, so I have deleted both my posts.

this will give you a clear picture why i posted those alleged contras

Quote from agent
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.

SISTER Savage-Carrot -ALL I ASK IS TO BRING THE 'WHY IT ISN'T' OUT INTO THE OPEN SO THAT WE CALL CAN LEARN. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CALL SOMETHING IMPERFECT AND NOT BRING THE EVIDENCE TO BE DISCUSSED?

agentxxx-I have already posted some of these before but wasn?t satisfied with the explanations, so may be you can help me? also I don?t want to debate these issues, one of the reason of this post is to let you know what makes me skeptical?

Last, all I want to say on this thread is, we all have our own reasons to believe or disbelieve. People who think the book is perfect have theirs own understanding and reasons. People who are skeptical or People who are traditional/orthodox believers have their own understanding and reasons. Every sect, every individual believes in WHAT HE/SHE UNDERSTANDS IS RIGHT, and all have a right to do so, as ONLY THEY HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEIR DEEDS to the almighty and not any other person.

I respect my religion but not the absurdities in it.

And follow the best that has been revealed to you from your Lord before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;

I try to follow what i believe is the best and that according to my understanding is the excellent code of ethics in the book and nothing else.

enquirer wrote

'Who said anything against quran? The problem with some people here is that whenever a question is asked regarding the quran THAT THEY DONT HAVE AN ANSWER TO,or that the obvious answer(not necessarily right.) might make the quran look bad, THEY BECOME DEFENSIVE AND EMOTIONAL. If we want to truly learn from the quran,we need to learn to criticize it,and uphold its teachings on rational thought. Questioning the content of the quran or its authenticity is not wrong. Questioning leads to answers.'

Absolutely Right brother and still wants to be called free minds progressive muslims ??

God bless you all,
peace.

TheNabi

Peace Enquirer

i am concerned about deflecting,defusing and defending against 'harmful' 'immoral' beliefs/behaviour from any source

I have mentioned before that you are a dabbler in many things and therefore have no concrete knowledge of the basis of these many things. You say you study Buddhism, but recently you had no knowledge of it's basic tenents and I think I can say that of many another systems you claim that you are a student of.

What I really wanted to address however was your mention of harmful behavior. I'd suggest you start with yourself because your dabblings and misunderstandings have led you to uninformed conclusions.

Joe

Fahad1

Peace

Enquirer, do you not see my posts? It seems you are the one that avoids posts that refute your claims, and then you go on to insult.

Peace all. Whoever wants to say im avoiding this or that or whatever... well thats fine,thats your opinions... I have posted the contradictions,and if i see anybody refute them properly then i will discuss or accept their findings. I reserve the right to discuss with people i want to...No compulsion in the deen hey. Wink

So you claim something, then when someone wants to discuss it with you, and you don't like what they said, you can just decide not to discuss it with them, correct?

he wants to 'discuss' only with those who , he thinks , cant refute his claims .

Fahad1

Peace darbari. ok,you say these sunnat of allah are specific to just those verses,so i wont discuss that with you...

me say ?! i showed u the verses . thats what the verses are saying . do u agree with my explanation or not ? finish this one first , so we can move on .

(im sure many 'quran only' would disagree,and it would be nice of them to explain the verses if they think/agree that allah does not ever change his sunnat or laws.)

huh?! still insisting ? can u quote or give reference to any other such verses ?

Ok,then explain those list of strange literal occurences like a stick turning into a snake,virgin birth etc,etc...
Most especially what does sujood to adam mean when you should only do sujood to allah alone? Any takers?...

first, list your favourite "contradictions" together please . it would be better to post them in the original post of this thread .

unknownuser

peace brother Ahmed,

Good morning mate

you wrote

found it very strange that you just keep posting masses of alleged contradictions without responding to the others who tried to help you out, at least say anything that indicate that you read it,

My reason for not responding

Sister s-c- Did u read my previous post?
YES I HAVE READ IT NOW, thank you very much for taking time to explain sis
ITS ALMOST 330 IN THE MORNING, brother Ahmed just got up, good morning bro and have a nice day. as for me I THINK ITS BETTER TO GO TO SLEEP BEFORE I AGAIN MIX UP REPLIES
bye.
God bless you sis,
peace.

I hope now you understand why I didn?t responded and if you look at the time these replies were posted there is a difference of 10 minutes only and the reply of sis s-c has couple of links which I couldn?t read at that time.

Ok bro, sorry about that

Also when the discussion becomes emotions and brothers and sisters start calling each other ?the enemy of God? ?The enemy of the Quran? ?the enemy of islam? or doubt your beliefs/intentions what is there to discuss?

Well, I call the ones who clearly show the symptoms like enquirer for example, he is challenging Allah by insisting that the Quran is not His work, He also trying hard to lead Muslims astray by telling them to follow they conscience and not follow the Quran, and that is enough for me to call him the enemy of God, the enemy of the Quran and the enemy of Islam, it is not an insult though because simply I?m an enemy to him too, but I guess I should be called the enemy of atheism

Bro if you had read my post to sis s-c, you would have known the reason why I posted these alleged contras, and they are all over the net bro, ALL OVER THE NET? But even then because I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION TO HURT THE FEELING OF OTHERS

I know they are all over the net so you want the alleged contradoictions to be documented in here too?

or to be associated with the enemies of my religion etc, so I have deleted both my posts.

well, I didn?t associate you with any enemy, I only told you that the way you are posting masses of alleged contradictions is no different to their confusing way that only constitute a propaganda

this will give you a clear picture why i posted those alleged contras

Quote from agent
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.

SISTER Savage-Carrot -ALL I ASK IS TO BRING THE 'WHY IT ISN'T' OUT INTO THE OPEN SO THAT WE CALL CAN LEARN. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CALL SOMETHING IMPERFECT AND NOT BRING THE EVIDENCE TO BE DISCUSSED?

agentxxx-I have already posted some of these before but wasn?t satisfied with the explanations, so may be you can help me? also I don?t want to debate these issues, one of the reason of this post is to let you know what makes me skeptical?

Ok bro but I just wanted any sort of proper feed back because doing it with you is not a debate unlike doing it with others that I consider enemies to my religion

Last, all I want to say on this thread is, we all have our own reasons to believe or disbelieve. People who think the book is perfect have theirs own understanding and reasons. People who are skeptical or People who are traditional/orthodox believers have their own understanding and reasons.

I agree, but when questions are raised between these parties, I?m sure problems will arise

Every sect, every individual believes in WHAT HE/SHE UNDERSTANDS IS RIGHT, and all have a right to do so, as ONLY THEY HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEIR DEEDS to the almighty and not any other person.

No question about that, it is called freewill and Judgment

I respect my religion but not the absurdities in it.

sure, me too, but I could not see any absurdities in the Quran I only saw this within the Muslims and in in the Hadith, the Quran is perfect and has no absurdities

And follow the best that has been revealed to you from your Lord before there comes to you the punishment all of a sudden while you do not even perceive;

but 3955 does not mean that the Quran has any absurdities

I try to follow what i believe is the best and that according to my understanding is the excellent code of ethics in the book and nothing else.

sure but you are criticising the book at the same time and you are thinking that there are some content that is absurd

enquirer wrote

'Who said anything against quran? The problem with some people here is that whenever a question is asked regarding the quran THAT THEY DONT HAVE AN ANSWER TO,or that the obvious answer(not necessarily right.) might make the quran look bad, THEY BECOME DEFENSIVE AND EMOTIONAL. If we want to truly learn from the quran,we need to learn to criticize it,and uphold its teachings on rational thought. Questioning the content of the quran or its authenticity is not wrong. Questioning leads to answers.'
Absolutely Right brother and still wants to be called free minds progressive muslims ??

God bless you all,
peace.

Bro the comment by enq is utter BS, if someone come and tell me the quran has mistakes, I have the following options

regardless of who that person is, I have to defend the allegation by dialogue, (defensive)
bash the s*** out of him and act like a terrorist (offensive)
ignore and walk away (defenceless)

So why being defensive (defending the Quran) is a shame?

Unless you guys want us defenceless?

Salam

unknownuser

Peace nabi,ab,darbari and all. Nabi;to be frank you have no idea about me,so you are just making vague assumptions,and as for harmful behaviour...,where?...your posts are sometimes vague and exude a superiority complex... And whats harmful about pointing out inconsistencies in the 'literal' interpretations...or do you believe sticks turn into snakes,or hands should be chopped of nowadays.?..(careful with 17;36 .)

Darbari;You have only explained your opinions of the verses,you havent refuted anything of the literal translations..You havent even answered many of my stated contradictions..but thats fine,you probably cant.

Ab;your interpretations are some of the most harmful on the forum,but i know you only answer to god (or your opinions) ,so i hope your 'god' wakes you up,but you will have to actually use your own mind more...
Peace all. Ps;nice try guys,but no cigar...try be more 'objectice' and less defensive and emotional.

savage_carrot

Peace agent,

I hope now you understand why I didn?t responded and if you look at the time these replies were posted there is a difference of 10 minutes only and the reply of sis s-c has couple of links which I couldn?t read at that time.

Thanks for the clarification. It was quite odd that sometime after I posted, another post full of the same had popped up.

Also when the discussion becomes emotions and brothers and sisters start calling each other ?the enemy of God? ?The enemy of the Quran? ?the enemy of islam? or doubt your beliefs/intentions what is there to discuss?

Maybe we can try to put their doubts to rest instead of NOT discussing after claims are made, as that is even more suspect

Bro if you had read my post to sis s-c, you would have known the reason why I posted these alleged contras, and they are all over the net bro, ALL OVER THE NET? But even then because I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION TO HURT THE FEELING OF OTHERS or to be associated with the enemies of my religion etc, so I have deleted both my posts.
I don't think it's a mystery as to why you quoted the contradictions. You think they are is all. I think there was no need to delete your posts since they were already addressed.

this will give you a clear picture why i posted those alleged contras
Quote from agent
Absolutely right but on the opposite side when the desires/emotions creep in, along with the blind belief! This is a perfect book, that?s when things start messing up too.
SISTER Savage-Carrot -ALL I ASK IS TO BRING THE 'WHY IT ISN'T' OUT INTO THE OPEN SO THAT WE CALL CAN LEARN. IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO CALL SOMETHING IMPERFECT AND NOT BRING THE EVIDENCE TO BE DISCUSSED?
agentxxx-I have already posted some of these before but wasn?t satisfied with the explanations, so may be you can help me? also I don?t want to debate these issues, one of the reason of this post is to let you know what makes me skeptical?

So, you ask me to help you but you don't want to debate or discuss? My bad for addressing them, I didn't know it was a rhetorical request.

Last, all I want to say on this thread is, we all have our own reasons to believe or disbelieve. People who think the book is perfect have theirs own understanding and reasons. People who are skeptical or People who are traditional/orthodox believers have their own understanding and reasons. Every sect, every individual believes in WHAT HE/SHE UNDERSTANDS IS RIGHT, and all have a right to do so, as ONLY THEY HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEIR DEEDS to the almighty and not any other person.
We go back to my previous statement, if on a public forum, one makes a claim or airs their understanding...do they not want to learn about it further by addressing and discussing the evidence? If not, what is the purpose of the claim? I mean, we should just stick to watching tv then where there is no interaction and we can learn about random people and what they believe.

I respect my religion but not the absurdities in it.

What is your religion? What are the absurdities? Anything to do with the quran containing absurdities? If so, bring it out to be discussed or what is the point of airing the claim on a forum when it only serves the purpose of telling others what you think but which can't be discussed/debated or questioned? Maybe the tactics of one hit and run wonders would be better applied here than regulars.

I try to follow what i believe is the best and that according to my understanding is the excellent code of ethics in the book and nothing else.

Great, I can hear it but not debate it no matter how many times it's aired. Once again I would like to clarify that I have no problem with what someone believes, but if claims are made then those claims with evidence should be open for debate.

Absolutely Right brother and still wants to be called free minds progressive muslims

Who does? Care to tell us why anyone defending their convictions isn't defensive inclusive of some like the OP and yourself? Emotion usually appears when people have no refutations or evidence to back them up. I'm sure you've seen the many posts that contained them on this here thread that are just ignored for lack of a better word.

unknownuser

Peace open-mind. I will post you a reply tommorow.
Take it easy.

unknownuser

Peace nabi and all. If my posts make just a few people stop and think about the dogmatic literalism which is making the quran contradict,and creating immoral interpretations,then they might appreciate and gain some good morals and insights/reminders from the quran... Then i will be happy with my work,and you will be hard-pressed to say my opinions are harmful then...

unknownuser

Even natives in the english language will have a hard time reading that statement bro. It's not constructed accurately, maybe to add some level of 'witticism'?!? To clarify, I think they are trying to say-

'If I was to spot your fallacy, then your statement in bold along with the statement that you made previously in the same post, may reverse the proverbial "sticks to snakes". (Insert more 'wit' here)'.

This is not saying much at all unless they try.

Talk about the desperation of understanding your man-made holier-than-thou-book in Allah?s name that has caused an atomic flare in the entire world in destitute, disputes, chaos, disharmony, wars, lies, jealousies, deceptions, power, and multitude of divisions, you name it, and the history seems to be repeating itself with ?Quran Aloners? at an advanced phase in case you seem to be missing out on this one?..the level of witticism at its peak.

Now here?s another symbolic phrase your native Englishmen may have a hard time understanding Ilk of your native mindsets need ?nipples to suck upon, dolls to play around and see-saw to ride on?.

Dear friends,

i have been a member on this site for over 3 years now and hopefully like to continue. I see some very interesting threads and postings by members from which I get a lot of interesting information and also learn many new things. But what really bothers? me is the hatred, animosity and mistrust which is being spread by a few members here and which vitiates the whole atmosphere.

When one member starts attacking the other and that too in a very denigrating and contemptuous manner, then the other is also forced to take a stand and retaliate in like fashion, pay it back in the same coin so to speak.

This is a very unhealthy and uncivilized way of behavior. What it only lends credence to is the incorrigible nature of human beings. The great ?prophets/messengers? came and did their utmost to elevate us in terms of character, morality and spiritual values, to do good to others, to open our minds and to show compassion and tolerance, NOT BY BOOKS but by the ESSENSE OF NATURE. Well, they all were mortal and passed away, and what do we see after them..? The same blessed unfortunate bunch, divided amongst themselves, bickering over practices, traditions, rights and power!

Whereas one does acknowledge that all great religions brought in a framework and a structured set of values and formulated moral and social laws in ages when human beings were more like animals, but if this is the state today, where religion has caused deep divisions, caused massive wars, raised impenetrable barriers and is the cause of so much havoc, pain and suffering, then either those religions have failed us or we have failed them. We have proved that we are as yet beyond redemption.

The daily vicious name calling here, the amount of venom displayed?. its really saddening! It's enough to make someone puke and walk away and distance oneself from the very source of all this misery.

How many of us have genuinely tried with affection and love, to understand someone else's beliefs, tried to talk to their learned men, listen to their reasoning and get behind their logic, with an open mind? There are gems to be collected from them as well. Why not take the good from wherever it comes our way and respectfully leave whatever does not agree with our god-given intellect, instead of deriding them and hating them? Do you really think you are superior than the other? That would have to be an extremely hypocritical and arrogant point of view to have!

Quran is foremost a hand-written/printed man-made book and that too a historical one passed over generations in its unoriginal format. There is absolutely no doubt about that and the entire earth stands witness. And many such books have come and gone. So treat it as such and the only possible way to understand it is with open-mindedness, objectivity, scientific and logical relevancy in order to critically analyze the subject without buffering and buttering up Allah and mocking HIM in vain, which the alleged Muslims including Quran Aloners are quite skilled at.

What is being displayed here is naked as well as silenced intolerances, prejudice, dogmatic narrow-mindedness and bigotry. The ummah self-destructed after the death of the prophet and the process still continues with a BIG! Congrats and welcome to...... ?FREE MINDS? (a trademark bearing an irrevocable stamp of Quran) hushed out.

bash the s*** out of him and act like a terrorist (offensive)

And that my friends, speaks for itself.

unknownuser

Dear brother agent

I'm surprised that you deleted the alleged contradictions, please post them back one at a time, i have no problem from you raising any concerns, i was only concerned about masses of alleged contradictions in one comment, i was just about to respond to the Firon one, i know it well because i responded to it ages ago, so i will try to respood to it from memory, but there are others that i haven't read before like Ad tribe, i think your post suggested an alleged contradiction regarding one night and 3 nights?, i will see if i can find the verses, i also remember there was one about Abraham, please post them back one at a time and don't leave it to my memory as my memory sometimes fails me

please be aware i'm more interested to dicuss it with a muslim than with an enemy of my religion so please discuss it with me if you want but one at a time please

thanks

unknownuser

Thank you danish for your lovely insight that have only one objective, to try to tell nicely that the Quran is man made, well, good for you and for any who will follow your lovely insight

now for my comment about bashing the s*** out of someone attacking my religion, that was a bit humorous but again it is a reality by many faiths all around the world, i'm not one of those though, it is clear that i condemned this option by saying "Like a terrorist", was that was hard for you to get?

agentxxx

peace brother ahmed.

you wrote

Good morning mate

good morning brother.

you wrote

Quote from agentxxx
I hope now you understand why I didnt responded and if you look at the time these replies were posted there is a difference of 10 minutes only and the reply of sis s-c has couple of links which I couldnt read at that time.

Ok bro, sorry about that

np bro ;D

Well, I call the ones who clearly show the symptoms like enquirer for example, he is challenging Allah by insisting that the Quran is not His work, He also trying hard to lead Muslims astray by telling them to follow they conscience and not follow the Quran, and that is enough for me to call him the enemy of God, the enemy of the Quran and the enemy of Islam, it is not an insult though because simply Im an enemy to him too, but I guess I should be called the enemy of atheism

brother indeed we all have our own different ways to react. but my humble opinion is that both sides should stop if the discussion becomes emotion and chances of resolving an issue are zero, we must also keep in mind verses like these.
4134. The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.

But none is granted it save those who are steadfast, and none is granted it save the owner of great happiness.

bro ab-well, I didnt associate you with any enemy, I only told you that the way you are posting masses of alleged contradictions is no different to their confusing way that only constitute a propaganda

thanks and peace brother, i did not meant it to be llike that.

bro ab-sure, me too, but I could not see any absurdities in the Quran I only saw this within the Muslims and in the Hadith, the Quran is perfect and has no absurdities

may be absurdity is not a proper word to be used here but tell me what should be the reaction of a hadith supporter regarding what you stated?

bro abOk bro but I just wanted any sort of proper feed back because doing it with you is not a debate unlike doing it with others that I consider enemies to my religion

this is what i mean brother? we shouldnt carry an issue that far where we start suspecting/hating each others.

bro abBro the comment by enq is utter BS, if someone come and tell me the quran has mistakes, I have the following options

regardless of who that person is, I have to defend the allegation by dialogue, (defensive)
bash the s*** out of him and act like a terrorist (offensive)
ignore and wake away (defenceless)

So why being defensive (defending the Quran) is a shame?

Unless you guys want us defenceless?

excuse me brother but who are these us? i thought all at freeminds are a big family and we all are us? inspite of our different ways of understanding issue.
and please I didnot join freeminds to discuss the fundamentals of the book, there is absolutely no disagreement on that, they are clear for even a lay man to understand.

the disagreement is only regarding the allagorical verses and if even that cannot be discussed, then ??.

tell me please

And We know well that they say Only a man teacheth him. The speech of him at whom they falsely hint is outlandish, and this is clear Arabic speech.
Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, Allah guideth them not and theirs will be a painful doom.

25 4. And those who disbelieve say This is nothing but a lie which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it; so indeed they have done injustice and (uttered) a falsehood.

25 5. And they say The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening.
25 6. Say He has revealed it Who knows the secret in the heavens and the earth; surely He is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
25 7. And they say What is the matter with this Messenger that he eats food and goes about in the markets; why has not an angel been sent down to him, so that he should have been a warner with him?
25 8. Or (why is not) a treasure sent down to him, or he is made to have a garden from which he should eat? And the unjust say You do not follow any but a man deprived of reason.
25 9. See what likenesses do they apply to you, so they have gone astray, therefore they shall not be able to find a way.

And when Our communications are recited to them, they say We have heard indeed; if we pleased we could say the like of it; this is nothing but the stories of the ancients.
And when they said O Allah! if this is the truth from Thee, then rain upon us stones from heaven or inflict on us a painful punishment.
But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness.
Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.
Or do they say A poet, we wait for him the evil accidents of time.
Say Wait, for surely I too with you am of those who wait.

what was the prophets reaction to all these very serious allegations?
was it 1,2 or 3?

brother where is the level of tolerance we preach? i think we should not post verses like these then

7180
And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.

2855
And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."

2563
And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they Say "Peace."

3348
And do not obey the rejecters and the hypocrites, and ignore their insults, and put your trust in God; God suffices as an advocate.

1065
And do not be saddened by their speech, for all glory is to God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.

God bless you,
peace.

savage_carrot

Talk about the desperation of understanding your man-made holier-than-thou-book in Allah?s name that has caused an atomic flare in the entire world in destitute, disputes, chaos, disharmony, wars, lies, jealousies, deceptions, power, and multitude of divisions, you name it, and the history seems to be repeating itself with ?Quran Aloners? at an advanced phase in case you seem to be missing out on this one?..the level of witticism at its peak. Now here?s another symbolic phrase your native Englishmen may have a hard time understanding Ilk of your native mindsets need ?nipples to suck upon, dolls to play around and see-saw to ride on?.

One can blame a book all they want. Human nature is responsible for all the multiple words for the same that have been quoted. It's unfortunate that my post touched a nerve that made one use it as a heading for an 'open' letter.

But what really bothers? me is the hatred, animosity and mistrust which is being spread by a few members here and which vitiates the whole atmosphere.
I remember the same not so long ago when I newly joined. No one raised much concerns then, infact the 'few' members at the time were being actively defended even though what was being spread could be described in the same terms by some.

When one member starts attacking the other and that too in a very denigrating and contemptuous manner, then the other is also forced to take a stand and retaliate in like fashion, pay it back in the same coin so to speak.
Justification for the response? Nice. Maybe no one should retaliate or maybe no one should attack...

This is a very unhealthy and uncivilized way of behavior. What it only lends credence to is the incorrigible nature of human beings. The great ?prophets/messengers? came and did their utmost to elevate us in terms of character, morality and spiritual values, to do good to others, to open our minds and to show compassion and tolerance, NOT BY BOOKS but by the ESSENSE OF NATURE. Well, they all were mortal and passed away, and what do we see after them..? The same blessed unfortunate bunch, divided amongst themselves, bickering over practices, traditions, rights and power!
So the book we have that claims to be from God is basically not from God. Alrighty.

Whereas one does acknowledge that all great religions brought in a framework and a structured set of values and formulated moral and social laws in ages when human beings were more like animals, but if this is the state today, where religion has caused deep divisions, caused massive wars, raised impenetrable barriers and is the cause of so much havoc, pain and suffering, then either those religions have failed us or we have failed them. We have proved that we are as yet beyond redemption.
If it wasn't religion, it would be something else. If one does away with one excuse another will take it's place. It can be race, birthright, greed, oil, power, declarations anything. It's not the book that causes one to fail, it is oneself.

The daily vicious name calling here, the amount of venom displayed?. its really saddening! It's enough to make someone puke and walk away and distance oneself from the very source of all this misery.
If someone feels this way, it's best to distance oneself and keep themselves centered.

How many of us have genuinely tried with affection and love, to understand someone else's beliefs, tried to talk to their learned men, listen to their reasoning and get behind their logic, with an open mind? There are gems to be collected from them as well. Why not take the good from wherever it comes our way and respectfully leave whatever does not agree with our god-given intellect, instead of deriding them and hating them? Do you really think you are superior than the other? That would have to be an extremely hypocritical and arrogant point of view to have!
Indeed, if all is genuine affection and love there should be no problem. One would be surprised to see how many times depending on perspective one thinks that their thinking is evolved and the other's isn't.

Quran is foremost a hand-written/printed man-made book and that too a historical one passed over generations in its unoriginal format. There is absolutely no doubt about that and the entire earth stands witness.
By man-made meaning not divine in origin? Divine but corrupted by man? A man's account of his reflections? Divinely inspired to a man but not really verbatim words of a god? There is no god just 'enlightened' people? By unoriginal meaning it has nothing new? Whatever it says can be found somewhere else? Is there no doubt then?

And many such books have come and gone. So treat it as such and the only possible way to understand it is with open-mindedness, objectivity, scientific and logical relevancy in order to critically analyze the subject without buffering and buttering up Allah and mocking HIM in vain, which the alleged Muslims including Quran Aloners are quite skilled at.
These skills are found a dime to a dozen these days apparently not just limited to the alleged Muslims and Quran Aloners.

What is being displayed here is naked as well as silenced intolerances, prejudice, dogmatic narrow-mindedness and bigotry. The ummah self-destructed after the death of the prophet and the process still continues with a BIG! Congrats and welcome to...... ?FREE MINDS? (a trademark bearing an irrevocable stamp of Quran) hushed out.

From both sides of the 'camp' perhaps or would that be overlooked and it's only one 'groups' fault? Hopefully the process will continue but in not quite the way it's being dramatized and sensationalized from someone's perspective.

unknownuser

Thank you danish for your lovely insight that have only one objective, to try to tell nicely that the Quran is man made, well, good for you and for any who will follow your lovely insight

now for my comment about bashing the s*** out of someone attacking my religion, that was a bit humorous but again it is a reality by many faiths all around the world, i'm not one of those though, it is clear that i condemned this option by saying "Like a terrorist", was that was hard for you to get?

Thanks Ahmed, I got your point.

You see, the issue is not the time and place in which the two aforementioned verses speak about; it is the congruency and tangency of PUNISHMENT justified in inconsistent and incoherent manner, especially when allegedly elevated to an unimaginable source of a higher merciful authority. In other words, the punishment given in one verse is irreflective/doesn't relate to the punishment given in another verse for the same or worse cause. Did you get my point without me going into detail or need further explanation?

agentxxx

Dear brother ahmed,

I'm surprised that you deleted the alleged contradictions, please post them back one at a time,

good morning to you brother and have a nice day.....after cleaning
its 518 in the morning at lahore and i am still awake , i can see the sun coming out, so before my wife comes out of the bedroom and cleans me up i think i should go to sleep.

please brother forget about the contras as they create tensions/confusions/misunderstandings and i dont want to be held reponsible for that ).

I love you all,
God bless you,
peace.