Contradictions and inconsistencies in the quran?
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Peace AB,
I found it very strange that you just keep posting masses of alleged contradictions without responding to the others who tried to help you out, at least say anything that indicate that you read it, anyway it is up to you to read it or not
This is what happens when the other person...
(a) had no intention of learning or finding out the truth
(b) had a previous agenda (note one of my first posts to him was asking this very question)
(c) is here to preach his own religion or lack of
(d) all of the above.I commend your patience and perseverance to still answer the "contradictions" in detail, knowing they will not be adressed and that the other party will still claim you posted "nothing".
Peace be with you
Thank you dear brother
mu answer is (d)
it is a sacred duty man
Peace be with you
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Slam dunked, thank you Danish
Thanks bro for your lengthy "slam dunked" humorous mutations. You still didn't catch "agentxxx's" real concern, now did you, and went on a Blah Blah spree? Can you spot your own fallacy?
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Slam dunked, thank you Danish
Thanks bro for your lengthy "slam dunked" humorous mutations. You still didn't catch "agentxxx's" real concern, now did you, and went on a Blah Blah spree? Can you spot your own fallacy?
D
why don't you spot it and expose it?
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Peace AB,
the first accusation in the first event was different to the second accusation in the second event
Good catch and great posts. Keep 'em coming!
Additionally I must thank all the people in this thread who have posted refutations. These seem to be the same 'contradictions' posted on this forum and others countless times that have been refuted. Maybe the people concerned can search for them and post the refutation and the explanation given (if they claim the will to learn), and bring that in to be discussed if it is not satisfactory to them. Why it isn't would be a good start. I'm surprised that it doesn't happen, after all they've been here long enough.
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Man, this one is a real joke indeed, I can?t believe people who claim to be intelligent and smart enough to find contradictions in the Quran show this level of ignorance, I guess my friend you need to ask them this question first before you give what they say any merit, the question is 1 + 1 = ?
If I spot it, then your above statement in bold and the "good catch" thingy may turn the "snakes back to sticks". symbolism! Are you'll ready for that? (edit)
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Man, this one is a real joke indeed, I can?t believe people who claim to be intelligent and smart enough to find contradictions in the Quran show this level of ignorance, I guess my friend you need to ask them this question first before you give what they say any merit, the question is 1 + 1 = ?
If I spot it, then your above statement in bold and the "good catch" thingy may turn the "snakes back to sticks". symbolism!
Mate, please don't play the english language game with me, i'm not that native in english, i have to say i could not understand perfectly what you meant by the above statement, but look bro, i'm not challenging you, i'm only looking at the merit of the alleged quran contradictions posted by many, and your turn will come because i spot a comment by you in this thread but I didn't read it yet, sorry, too much to read, but i hadit flaged in my mind as long as the memory of my mind keeps holding, so as I said I'm not challenging you but it seems you want to challenge me which is fine man, please go for it, spot it then expose it, but I hope you try to be politically accurate because it seems you are talking on someone's else behalf based on assumptions
cheers
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Mate, please don't play the english language game with me, i'm not that native in english, i have to say i could not understand perfectly what you meant by the above statement,
Even natives in the english language will have a hard time reading that statement bro. It's not constructed accurately, maybe to add some level of 'witticism'?!? To clarify, I think they are trying to say-
'If I was to spot your fallacy, then your statement in bold along with the statement that you made previously in the same post, may reverse the proverbial "sticks to snakes". (Insert more 'wit' here)'.
This is not saying much at all unless they try.
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Man, this one is a real joke indeed, I can?t believe people who claim to be intelligent and smart enough to find contradictions in the Quran show this level of ignorance, I guess my friend you need to ask them this question first before you give what they say any merit, the question is 1 + 1 = ?
If I spot it, then your above statement in bold and the "good catch" thingy may turn the "snakes back to sticks". symbolism!
Mate, please don't play the english language game with me, i'm not that native in english, i have to say i could not understand perfectly what you meant by the above statement, but look bro, i'm not challenging you, i'm only looking at the merit of the alleged quran contradictions posted by many, and your turn will come because i spot a comment by you in this thread but I didn't read it yet, sorry, too much to read, but i hadit flaged in my mind as long as the memory of my mind keeps holding, so as I said I'm not challenging you but it seems you want to challenge me which is fine man, please go for it, spot it then expose it, but I hope you try to be politically accurate because it seems you are talking on someone's else behalf based on assumptions
Ahmed bro, please understand that people can accuse and vent out all they want (bears no effect on me) and I am very much aware of their own lamented yet slippery and deceptive minds barging in and supporting others with all sorts of fatwahs to incite belligerency and hostility. My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom, but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS. With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.
Now coming to the "spotlight", I will have you concentrate on the red marked portions of agentxxx's concern rather than your etymological exegesis. We'll get to my previous unanswered post, no problem there. As a matter of fact, I found more stuff to it.
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Peace all. Here is a quote from phoenix which sums up the situation;
'Who said anything against quran? The problem with some people here is that whenever a question is asked regarding the quran that they dont have an answer to,or that the obvious answer(not necessarily right.) might make the quran look bad,they become defensive and emotional. If we want to truly learn from the quran,we need to learn to criticize it,and uphold its teachings on rational thought. Questioning the content of the quran or its authenticity is not wrong. Questioning leads to answers.'
I would add that if people never questioned they might still be following the 'hadith' they consider as outdated,'irrelevent' and corrupt...Do any of you remember the dogmatic,emotional,offensive outbursts you encountered when you questioned the validity,applicability and perfection of hadith? And the sectarian,insensitive attitude some people displayed when you asked them genuine questions about the hadith?
Also throwing verses about and cutting and pasting do not always prove your points...Some of the traditional sunnis quote loads of verses to justify the sunnah and their views,as did apple-pie...but you still disagree strongly with both these examples. Some of you seem to (not all.) base your 'faith' in the book on just that,...'faith'...this is fine,but then dont criticise christians who believe in the trinity on faith,or sunnis who believe the prophet explained the quran,and so say hadith are a valid divine source.(because of their faith.)
Peace all. -
Peace,
It's 345 am my time and I beg to be pardoned (not ducking out). I would love to have "agentxxx" on the line. Until then.....
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Salaam to you, Danish,
Some questions if you please vis-a-vis your statement My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom, but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS. With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.
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What problems do you see with al-quraan?
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Is it possible that these problems, instead of being 'real', exist to your limited understanding of al-quraan itself?
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How do you classify something as 'man's works' ? If X claims to be from God, what is your criteria to reject this assertion and classify it as man's work?
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What should a book of God's words be like ?
thank you for your attention.
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Salam brother agentxxx
Let me take them in order and try to respond to the ones I haven?t resond to yet inshaallah, I will respond to the Noah's one
NOAH
2176. And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and SAVED HIM AND HIS HOUSEHOLD from the great affliction.- And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers.
- He said I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, SO HE WAS AMONG THE DROWNED.
The enemy of Islam think that when Allah said in 2176 about Noah ?And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and SAVED HIM AND HIS HOUSEHOLD from the great affliction?, which suggest that Noah and his family were saved, is contradicting 1143 where Allah said that Noah?s son was NOT saved but drowned ?He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, SO HE WAS AMONG THE DROWNED?
Let me bring the Arabic verse again so I can follow the above
(76)
-> In 2176 we read that Noah and his family ? ?, pronounced ?Wa Ahlahu? were saved from ? the great affliction?, but hold on, did the verse said ? ALL HIS FAMILY??, of course it didn?t, also if I say ?Me and my family?, would that mean every bloody member in my family?, it might be but again it may be NOT, UNLESS I SAY ?ME AND EVERY MEMBER OF MY FAMILY?
In 1143 we know that his son drowned, but the blind could not see that Allah excluded his son earlier, here it is in 1140
Until when Our command came and water came forth from the valley, We said Carry in it two of all things, a pair, and your own family?except those against whom the word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And there believed not with him but a few.
(40)
-> See how they delebrtly never mention 1140 in their so called contradiction? Because Allah simple is telling Noah ? ?, ?Wa Ahlaka Ila Mn Sabaqa Alaihi Al Qawl?, i.e. ? and your own family?except those against whom the word has already gone forth?, IS CLEARLY EXCLUDING FROM HIS FAMILY WHOM THE WORD HAS ALREADY GONE FORTH., it didn?t directly say that his son will be excluded but at least it was said generally that some of his family will be excluded because the word has already gone forth against them., I?m sure Allah is excluding the ones who didn?t believe in Noah from his family, because Allah said straight after that. He will also save ? and those who believe. And there believed not with him but a few?
The blind also couldn?t see that Noah himself raised the same question with Allah and Allah clearly told Noah that his son WAS NOT ONE OF HIS FAMILY BUT A DISBELIEVER, let?s pick up the story at the final stages of the flood
44 And it was said O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said Away with the unjust people.
45 And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges.
46 He said O Nuh! surely he is not of your family; surely he is (the doer of) other than good deeds, therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant
47 He said My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from asking Thee that of which I have no knowledge; and if Thou shouldst not forgive me and have mercy on me, I should be of the losers.
(44)
(45)
(46)
(47)What can I say, this one needs a slam dunk before even I elaborate but let me save it for now
-> The flood water has receded ?And it was said O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said Away with the unjust people.?
-> Noah cried and raised the same question about his son with Allah ?And Nuh cried out to his Lord and said My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges.?
-> Allah is explaining to Noah that Noah is wrong because Allah excluded him earlier because HE WAS NOT ONE OF HIS FAMILY (METAPHORICALLY) ? ?, ?Inahu Laisa Min Ahlika?, ?He said O Nuh! surely he is not of your family; surely he is (the doer of) other than good deeds,?, then Allah warned Noah not to ask Him things that he has no knowledge of ?therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant?. see how tough was the response? And the clarification from Allah regarding Noah?s son, this response is also for the ignorant who say this is a contradiction.
I hope those ignorant repent as Noah did after realizing his mistake ?He said My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from asking Thee that of which I have no knowledge; and if Thou shouldst not forgive me and have mercy on me, I should be of the losers.?
And finally slam dunked, it?s getting boring
Salam
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Mate, please don't play the english language game with me, i'm not that native in english, i have to say i could not understand perfectly what you meant by the above statement,
Even natives in the english language will have a hard time reading that statement bro. It's not constructed accurately, maybe to add some level of 'witticism'?!? To clarify, I think they are trying to say-
'If I was to spot your fallacy, then your statement in bold along with the statement that you made previously in the same post, may reverse the proverbial "sticks to snakes". (Insert more 'wit' here)'.
This is not saying much at all unless they try.
Thanks for your go at it sister, but I'm still confused, if he spot a fallacy on my side then why he is not exposing it?, i will not show mercy if I sense fallacy from anyone indeed ) i think Danish is talking about Moses story somehow ???
Peace
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Ahmed bro, please understand that people can accuse and vent out all they want (bears no effect on me)
nor it bears any effect on myself
and I am very much aware of their own lamented yet slippery and deceptive minds barging in and supporting others
and myself is also aware
with all sorts of fatwahs to incite belligerency and hostility.
now here I have a problem, what the hell is belligerency?, sounds like pregnancy to me, are they from the same ROOT?, as well what fatwahs has to do with the quran contradiction exactly?, is responding to an alleged quran contradiction is a fatwah?
My views towards Quran has recently evolved to the point that it is an excellent read and yes it carries much wisdom,
of course it is, because it is from Allah not from a bunch of humans, it also took me years to realize its wisdom and superiority it is a time based sort of thing
but only to the point of MAN'S WORKS and not GOD'S WORDS.
that is a puzzle man, it can also be a typo, look it seems to me sort of you are comparing two things
MAN'S WORKS & GOD'S WORDS
well i can't see any sort of comaprison here unless the K is a D or the D is a K
but I see a relationship between the above two as is, this relation is simply MAN'S WORKS will be best if the man follows GOD'S WORDS
With that said and man being fallible, I do see some problems. That's all.
of course a man is fallible that is why for the BEST MAN"S WORKS we need GOD'S WORDS, "the perfect relationship between the fallible man and the perfect God"
Now coming to the "spotlight", I will have you concentrate on the red marked portions of agentxxx's concern rather than your etymological exegesis. We'll get to my previous unanswered post, no problem there. As a matter of fact, I found more stuff to it.
can't you just be bloody straighforward and show everypne how stupid i'm?
cheers
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Peace mquran. If you dont mind,i will answer your questions too.
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The problems are; literal undestandings being contradictory,harmful and not totally relevant to todays society. Incompleteness of the book. ( eg how do we implement 'simple' salat just from the book?..never mind a complete,peaceful political system.) Different versions of the book. Almost Impossible to verify/apply some simple passages literally because of conflicting historical reports about the context and circumstances of the verses. The book is sometimes unclear/obscure. The book cannot be totally understood clearly just by self-reference.(this last point is impossible to achieve by any book,all books need some reference from outside sources,otherwise you cant verify or compare it to anything to see if it is true,i made this last point to show the 'fallacy' of complete internal self-reference.)
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It is possible some of the 'problems' occur because of my misunderstandings,but not probable or possible that all of these problems can be blamed on every readers limited knowledge.(is there a reader with unlimited knowledge?)
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I would classify knowledge as being 'a mans work',when an open-minded reader continually cannot understand the relevance of certain passages,and cannot apply the simple verses that ask you to do certain duties(eg salat or zakat,etc...),even when asking/referring to others well-versed in life and the book. In other words totally failing to see what the book is saying or portraying in the so-called simple,clear,decisive(or muhkamat.) verses of the book. A mans work would also contain clearly incomplete or time/context based knowledge,as well as contradictions.
4)A book (not necessarily a physical one,but intrinsic to the soul or person,ie an internal book.) from god should be easily or eventually grasped by the sincere seeker. (and even partly understood by the insincere,non-seeker.) It should contain a solution or plan for every single situation any individual person faces,without exception. It should be available to all manking regardless of language,intellectual level,beliefs,age etc.. It should also be completely in tune with nature and the universe and 100% verifiable by all people.(even if they try to distort it,or dont want to follow it.) You should be able to verify any knowledge that comes to you(eventually.) with this 'book' or 'true criterion'.
The good news is that this 'divine book' already exists,always existed,and always will exist,and be available to all people,if they want it...
This book is your OWN UNIQUE DIVINE HEART... Your CONSCIENCE... View all knowledge/experiences through its genuine 'filter' and see how peaceful and enlightened you can be...This heart can grow if you feed it good deeds,or shrink if you feed it bad deeds...This 'heart' knows 'instinctively' what is 'good' or 'bad' for itself and others...Use it or 'lose' yourself... Happy feeding...
Peace all. -
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- The problems are; literal undestandings being contradictory,harmful and not totally relevant to todays society. Incompleteness of the book. ( eg how do we implement 'simple' salat just from the book?..never mind a complete,peaceful political system.)
So you think,,,Allah put all people in astray for 1000 years and you now are the right people to find a new innovation that salat was actually not prayer. After completing his Deen, Allah put all people to astray for 1000 years?
These stupid people also have to change all the meanings of quran to avoid prayer,,,,such as masjid and qibla.Do you have any historical evidences that prayer was actually not offered before in the age of prophet and it suddenly started??
And we were certainly dependant on the people of our history to transfer the MESSAGE. Otherwise you did not find the quran revelated to you... It was printed and transfered to you by those people who used to offer prayer 5 times a day.Also there is a mentioning in quran about 5 times prayer....Does that mean we implement policical system 5 times a day?
Come on!....dont give some stupid reason now.
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Peace mquran. If you dont mind,i will answer your questions too.
I don't mind at all. What is deplorable is your tactic of moving on without acknowledging that you were wrong. Your study of the Quran is at best, superficial (I say this because I have been with people whose deep understandings of the Book has shown that the book when properly understood, is what it says it is) and I will prove it to you below.
- The problems are; literal undestandings being contradictory
The contradictions you mentioned have been answered. Your lack of acknowledgement of them shows that you're unwilling to accept EVEN WHEN al-quraan clearly shows otherwise. You're not an 'open-minded, unbiased' person that you think you are. In reality, you have a bigotry towards the book but its good to talk to you to increase faith.
,harmful and not totally relevant to todays society.
Nice rhetoric, but can you give an example of harmfulness and tell me BY WHICH CRITERIA (i've asked Elke and Ichepren this) do you deem it 'not totally relevent'
Incompleteness of the book. ( eg how do we implement 'simple' salat just from the book?..never mind a complete,peaceful political system.)
The fact that you mention 'salaat' and 'peaceful political system' as examples shows how well you've grasped the book.
Different versions of the book.
What VERSIONS? You think Hafs and Warsh are VERSIONS of al-quraan????
Almost Impossible to verify/apply some simple passages literally because of conflicting historical reports about the context and circumstances of the verses.
Funnily, the 'conflicting historical reports' are deemed to be credible enough to challenge al-quraan. Do you see how biased you are ?
Does al-quraan say it should be judged via history?
The book is sometimes unclear/obscure.
Full of 'far-fetched meanings', yes I remember.The book cannot be totally understood clearly just by self-reference.(this last point is impossible to achieve by any book,all books need some reference from outside sources,otherwise you cant verify or compare it to anything to see if it is true,i made this last point to show the 'fallacy' of complete internal self-reference.)
Can you point to me where the book enjoins understanding 'just by self-reference' ?
If you think the book enjoins total self-reference, then this only shows the extent of your reading. Seriously, why do you continue to waste the time of others on this forum when you so clearly have not read al-quraan except perhaps a casual read during your morning expulsion? It's really shameful.
- It is possible some of the 'problems' occur because of my misunderstandings,but not probable or possible that all of these problems can be blamed on every readers limited knowledge.(is there a reader with unlimited knowledge?)
No there isn't but that is why the book calls for a constant increase of ilm (20/114) as ilm is to give more and more detail to the book (41/3)
- I would classify knowledge as being 'a mans work',when an open-minded reader continually cannot understand the relevance of certain passages,and cannot apply the simple verses that ask you to do certain duties(eg salat or zakat,etc...),even when asking/referring to others well-versed in life and the book. In other words totally failing to see what the book is saying or portraying in the so-called simple,clear,decisive(or muhkamat.) verses of the book. A mans work would also contain clearly incomplete or time/context based knowledge,as well as contradictions.
Who is this 'open-minded reader' ? YOU ? Who thinks al-quraan proposes it be understood 'JUST BY SELF-REFERENCE'?
Question do you deem yourself informed enough to make a judgement about al-quraan ?
4)A book (not necessarily a physical one,but intrinsic to the soul or person,ie an internal book.) from god should be easily or eventually grasped by the sincere seeker. (and even partly understood by the insincere,non-seeker.) It should contain a solution or plan for every single situation any individual person faces,without exception. It should be available to all manking regardless of language,intellectual level,beliefs,age etc.. It should also be completely in tune with nature and the universe and 100% verifiable by all people.(even if they try to distort it,or dont want to follow it.) You should be able to verify any knowledge that comes to you(eventually.) with this 'book' or 'true criterion'.
Right, and so every man can bring forward his view and say 'God told me this'. Guess what, some guy already did....
Enquirer, do some more reading, please. So far, the tools with which you choose to engage al-quraan are poor. You have notions about al-quraan which it itself doesnt acknowledge. Is the only way for you to critique al-quraan is by projecting false assumptions about it? Reading a translation (probably by NJ Dawood or someone of that ilk) and coming and saying 'you dont get salaat' is a real ill-equipped way to attack al-quraan. I await your answers to my questions above.
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Peace mquran.Just to clarify... I read the quran in arabic,and i have studied it on and off for about 25 years...The last 7-8 years, very intensely at times.I have also been through 'nearly' all the posts in free-minds,some in submission.org,tolu islam,dr shabbirs forum,i have read translations,interpretations and opinions of dozens of authors,as well as talking to 'quran only' and traditional muslims for 25 years also.
I have also studied hinduism,buddhism,taoism,confuicism,new age spirituality,greek philosophy,philosophy,mysticism,paranormal,science,red indian spirituality,indigenous religions,atheism,agnosticism,polytheism,pantheism,panentheism,scientology,wicca.etc,etc...and most importantly life...And im still studying... If the quran helps you or anyone else,thats fine,i took a lot of benefit from it too...But im not going to deny other sources,or claim its superior to everything else,or complete in itself,or the only criterion,or a 'literalistically written,dogmatic,unverified' idol. Im not too worried about defending my' beliefs',or refuting your beliefs...but i am concerned about deflecting,defusing and defending against 'harmful' 'immoral' beliefs/behaviour from any source...Be they from quran,'democratic' governments,science,the bible,atheism,peoples opinions or even myself...
Peace all. -
Peace bmbmm.As a scientist can you 100% prove or verify every verse in the quran?
If not,then its your 'faith' in some 'correct' verses that makes you think the whole book is correct,yes? Thats fine...But do you agree that a lot of 'backward',immoral thinking has come from its interpretations?...And do i have to follow it 'literally' to be successful? If so please tell me how to establish 'salat' or go to hajj etc...
If i cant follow half of the book because we cant agree or understand the verses how can the whole book be totally useful or verified? As a scientist can you say all science has to be verified by the quran? If so,is every scientific discovery already in the supposedly 'complete' quran?
Peace all. Ps;i do agree some great morals and knowledge can be found in some of the quran,especially if taken metaphorically.