Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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As Salaamu Alaykum To All Muslims
There has been an increasing divide among Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE on the amount of times we are suppose to perform Salaat. A small group or fraction of Muslims teach that Allah only authorized 3 Salaat times in the Qur'aan while the rest of the Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE and the entire Muslim world teach that Allah authorized 5 Salaat times or periods in the Qur'aan. We want all Muslims (no matter what persuasion you come from) to know that TAWHIYD has completed their extensive research on this heated subject and have laid to rest the FINAL ARGUMENT. We have dissected the "3 Salaat Theory" and intellectually DESTROYED it, beyond doubt. Visit the link below to examine yourself
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
Salaam
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Peace Al Khidr
Thank you for posting this informative article. Let me just start off by stating that I am thoroughly confused by the mess we've collectively made of Salat. Everyone has their own twist on it, which leads me to believe that there needs to be alot more work done on this subject, so that's excellent that you've added your work too. Hopefully, we can eventually get to some consensus after all the bugs have been worked out - God Willing.
As for questioning the sincerity of any who uphold the 3 Salat Theory, I think it would be wise to leave that up to God. I doubt anyone is out to corrupt Islam. In my opinion, when we use ijtihad to find the truth in the quran, we come from a genuine need to know. Our conclusions may result in a misunderstanding, but that is why they are called theories. It's a work in progress. He may be wrong, but that doesn't equate to him being a "psuedo-Muslim".
As for your analysis, I'd like to raise some points just to get a discussion started, and hopefully it will be a good learning experience for all involved.
In regards to the difference between Zuhr Salat and Asr Salat, the verses you posted do not seem to be referring to two separate prayers. They could in fact be referring to one and the same. Perhaps there is something else you can add to this part of the article to prove that they are in fact two separate prayers. If there isn't anything that proves that then one can infer that they could be one prayer in the middle of the day when "duluk ashams" occurs (when the sun begins to decline).
One thing that I have a problem grasping, is how there can be something labelled a "middle prayer" when there are 5 in total. Which one is the middle one ? In a row of five apples, if one were to ask me to choose the middle one, I would be puzzled as to which would be considered a "middle" of 5. Is it the third one? The second one? This is one reason why I haven't fully thrown out the 3 salat theory, while still not fully accepting it either. The reason why I don't fully accept it is because Rashad Khalifa claimed to have mathematically confirmed the 5 salat with all the rakaat traditionally done. While I haven't confirmed his work in this regard, someone I trust did and found that it works out. Of course, that's not enough evidence for me until I can 100% accept either theory, 3 or 5.
Again there is the same issue with your analysis of Maghreb Salat and Eisha Salat. The verses you referred to can also be referring to the same salat and not necessarily to different times. I didn't find any analysis to prove that they are in fact two separate times stipulated, which again might be something you want to work through.
Peace all
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Peace,
As for the arguments on 3 or 5, still the 3 have better arguments. But indeed you did a good job on how you can see 5 in it. One problem indeed is the way you judge people who only try to give their best approach. The way you stamp your judgement on people as pseudo-muslim or whatever, shows not the attitude of a muslim. We have to respect other views and accept the best one. If you believe you have the best approach, your arguments are enough, you have no right to stamp labels on other people. Also the majority argument you gave is also not evidence as God even warns us not to follow the majority. You were already biased when you wrote this, as you weren't open minded, but just wanted to 'prove' something you were already convinced of, so you were not objective. As for the mathematical code inside the prayer, this can be refuted already, as there is a whole mechanic inside the Quran already, and how could have people before the discovery of the code have verified the true salaat? Before the code, there wasn't complete blind faith in the Quran as the concistency of the rhyme and the science in it gave enough reference to base the faith in the Quran on. But the salaat is based on tradition which is totaly unreliable. The concept of that the salaat was passed on over the ages is not accpetable by my opinion. And to fit the code, it was mismashed a bit till it became a multiple of 19.
If i have to choose between the complete salat-method that can be found in the Quran, and one based on a tradition based salaat, which a multiple of 19 was fitted in on, then my choice is easy as the Quran is complete and isn't following conjecture, i choose of course the salaat which is completly found in the Quran.
But i do need more reference if it is 3 or 5 using an OBJECTIVE mind, which i believe you haven't used completly.
Peace
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As Salaamu Alaykum Arnold
In regards to your opinion in terms of my approach my response is found here posted Jan. 6, 2006, where you and I had our first encounter
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.30
You may not like what I say but you can?t deny it and that?s the real issue at hand, not personal opinions on styles of approach. I have done extensive research on the ?3 Salaat Theory? and you could not intellectually refute any of the arguments and I think that says a lot. Anybody is welcome to bring forth arguments that is how we learn but Arnold with all your statements (opinions), you as of the present can?t bring forth any? But that does not surprise me because you on the other hand are confused on whether it?s 5 or 3 Salaat and that?s fine I?m not placing judgment there, we are all human. I do not have all the knowledge, I?m just as human as everybody else, but what I do know is that there is 5 Salaat times or periods in the Holy Qur?aan and you cannot intellectually refute any of my arguments. Below is your statement
?But i do need more reference if it is 3 or 5 using an OBJECTIVE mind, which i believe you haven't used.?
In your response Arnold you have presented opinion after opinion or statement after statement, which is again different from FACTS/EVIDENCE. We as humans all have opinions and that?s cool but as long as we understand the difference between the two. I will wait for you to remove or transcend your statement or opinion with FACTS or EVIDENCE to refute my arguments that I stand on or perhaps your research may compliment the 5 Salaat position, which Allah authorized in the Qur?aan and not 3.
You have made a claim that I was not opened minded and that I was bias, etc., etc. and drew conclusions before I done my research. Below is your statement
?You were already biased when you wrote this, as you weren't open minded, but just wanted to 'prove' something you were already convinced of, so you were not objective?
Well again Arnold, we have another tale or opinion from you. I challenge you, provide evidence in my research to back your statement up or opinion up above? I have been exposed to this issue quite sometime and I decided to challenge the notion of the ?3 Salaat Theory? and we all have that right, and I presented my evidence in this forum and many other forums and areas on the internet before I posted on the Progressive Muslim Forum. The evidence of my research exist and it is open for any body to dissect it and pick it apart and refute my arguments, if its possible. But again Arnold at the present all you can introduce is your assumptions/opinions/statements. My arguments stand on the 5 Salaat position. I have received many positive responses by Muslims around the world concerning my research.
You have said this
?As for the mathematical code inside the prayer, this can be refuted already, as there is a whole mechanic inside the Quran already, and how could have people before the discovery of the code have verified the true salaat? Before the code, there wasn't complete blind faith in the Quran as the concistency of the rhyme and the science in it gave enough reference to base the faith in the Quran on?
Arnold you didn?t read my entire research or maybe you must have over looked some aspects of my research. When I proved that there are 5 Salaat times in the Qur?aan, thus my arguments were not diminished to the Divine Mathematical Code of the Qur?aan. I proved that there are 5 Salaat instead of 3 using various forms of evidence, logic, reasoning, I also proved with clear evidence that the Egyptians observed 5 Salaat and this was before Abraham and Muhammad was born. This evidence from the Egyptians is well known and NO hadiyth were written during that time. Salaat was well intact and well established and Allah preserved it. When there was distortion of Salaat Allah went out of His way to address the distortions and correct them. If there was originally 3 Salaat and this became distorted over time then why didn?t Allah address this in the Qur?aan and restore it back to 3 Salaat like how Allah restored Wudu and the tone of voice (in the Qur?aan) when we do Salaat. In my research I have went into far greater detail in this area. I would advice you to concentrate in these two of my sections and you will clearly see that the proponents of the 3 Salaat Theory has no bases or logic in the Qur?aan. This section starts under the category ?Islaam Is A Prescribed Way Of Life? and for the evidence that the Egyptians (Nubians) of antiquity observed 5 Salaat re-examine the section under ?The Nubian Egyptian Empire And Islaam? Abraham in the Qur?aan was performing Salaat. Salaat was intact and well established. I have proven beyond doubt that there are 5 Salaat and not 3 and the mathematical code was sound additional arguments, which was again something that you cannot refute.
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Peace,
Al-khidr, as you pointed out, i gave my opinion, nothing more. I'm myself are doing also a lot of research on this, and when it is done i can give a better judgement. Like i said, by my opinion the 3-times have better arguments, you only refuted one article. So till that time, i can only say what sounds more reasonable for me. Also i said clearly that by my opinion, the salaat cannot have survived through tradition. As for the concept of that the Nubians had a 5-time worship doesn't prove a thing. The Jews for example have three. You have a point when 80% of all the people in the ancient middle-east had a 5 time prayer, but they don't. So one people doesn't prove your point at all. Then you also have the Persians, but i researched them, and their 5 time prayers was introduced 300 years after Zarusthra(See the book Irano-Aryan Faith and Doctrine by Albert pike).
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In your response Arnold you have presented opinion after opinion or statement after statementFunny, like you almost copied it from my responses in our previous conversation and used it for your own. Only, the difference here is, that i say that it is my opinion and i need to do more research, i acknowledge that, while you on the other hand in our previous conversation knew exactly what and who.....
If i made the wrong conclusion on you being biased, i sincerely apologize, but i based it on the language you used in your article.
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I have received many positive responses by Muslims around the world concerning my research.So do i, also from Muslim scholars, but that doesn't prove a thing does it?
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When there was distortion of Salaat Allah went out of His way to address the distortions and correct them. If there was originally 3 Salaat and this became distorted over time then why didn?t Allah address this in the Qur?aan and restore it back to 3 Salaat like how Allah restored Wudu and the tone of voice (in the Qur?aan) when we do Salaat. In my research I have went into far greater detail in this areaThis is also an assumption, as to where does Allah say He restored the salaat? He doesn't say that in the Quran. This is based on assumptions on certain interpretations. Who says He restored the wudoo? The verse gives the approach how to do it, not that they did it wrong and this is how you do it, also the tone of voice sounds more as an direct order, not as something getting restored. These are all assumptions and opinions........
As for the salaat with the 19-code in them, there have been a lot of articles that already explained it, like this one
http//19.org/index.php?id=26,57,0,0,1,0
Peace
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As Salaamu Alaykum Soul2Squeeze
First I would like to thank you for your sincere response. I would like to try my best to respond or shed some light on some of the questions you have raised. Below you have said this
?As for questioning the sincerity of any who uphold the 3 Salat Theory, I think it would be wise to leave that up to God. I doubt anyone is out to corrupt Islam. In my opinion, when we use ijtihad to find the truth in the quran, we come from a genuine need to know. Our conclusions may result in a misunderstanding, but that is why they are called theories. It's a work in progress. He may be wrong, but that doesn't equate to him being a "psuedo-Muslim".
It is true that there are people out in the world who draw conclusions based on misunderstandings and their intentions are pure or sincere. But you have said this, ?I doubt anyone is out to corrupt Islam? in the real world based on the LAW of free-will Soul2Squeeze, there are people who have an intent to distort truth and even the truth of Islaam. In the real world there are people who know the truth and will conceal it and this is why we have so many sects in Islaam and we have duality in this world. Here is what Allah says in the Qur?aan
Qur?aan 214-15
14. When they meet the believers, they say, ?We believe,? but when alone with their devils, they say, ?We are still with you; we were only mocking.?
15. Allah mocks them, by leaving them in their transgressions; blindly they wander astray.This verse makes it very clear that they know the truth but they are concealers of the truth. The abuse of free-will creates falsehood, chaos etc. in the real world. There are many verses in the Qur?aan that I can use to demonstrate this point. Now my research that I entitled, ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? was a direct rebuttal to A. Muhammad research which he posted on his website. This guy has been exposed to a lot of information, thus he has a lot of exposure more so then the general person and I personally believe that he was not sincere in his research. However, my conclusion that I drew were based on his arguments; his attacks, things that he himself contradicts and promotes that are inconsistent with his positon and that is why I took special care to quote him before I dismantled his arguments. This is what occurs during DEBATE. The bigger question we should ask is can my arguments be refuted proven, can A. Muhammad?s arguments be refuted or proven. Lets look at the evidence that exist with an open mind and I am not saying that your mind is not open, I am generally speaking here. This subject has become a controversial issue among people who follow Qur?aan alone under the Progressive Muslims predominantly but its not a controversial issue among Muslims like myself who follow Qur?aan ALONE, thus it is very clear among us all over the world who follow Qur?aan ALONE (out side the Progressive Muslims) that Allah authorized 5 Salaat.
You have said this
?In regards to the difference between Zuhr Salat and Asr Salat, the verses you posted do not seem to be referring to two separate prayers. They could in fact be referring to one and the same.?
Can you pinpoint or highlight exactly where at in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? that I wrote where it may appear (to you) that Zuhr and Asr Salaat is not referring to two separate Salaat times?
You have said this
?One thing that I have a problem grasping, is how there can be something labelled a "middle prayer" when there are 5 in total. Which one is the middle one ??
If you believe the 3 Salaat format then the middle would fit right smack in the middle of 3. This is why I went out of my way to prove that the Qur?aan speaks of 5 periods to observe or perform Salaat because if we can prove that there are 5 Salaat then logically the middle prayer would fit right smack in the middle of 5. Also please re-examine the section where I broke down Qur?aan 11114. This is a very easy and simple verse to understand, translate, interpret. However, the proponent of the 3 Salaat Theory plays fast and loose with the words in that verse and its proper context.
You have said this
?The reason why I don't fully accept it is because Rashad Khalifa claimed to have mathematically confirmed the 5 salat with all the rakaat traditionally done. While I haven't confirmed his work in this regard, someone I trust did and found that it works out. Of course, that's not enough evidence for me until I can 100% accept either theory, 3 or 5.?
Alhamdulillah you do see how the Divine Mathematical Code confirms Salaat, that means we are partially there. In my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat? research I have proven that the original Egyptians observed 5 Salaat and this was long before Abraham and Muhammad came on the scene. Islaam always been here since the days of remotest antiquity, thus the tenant of Islaam has always been here. Please examine that area of my research found under the section, ?The Nubian Egyptian Empire And Islaam?. Now I would like to highlight another one of my section under ?Islaam Is A Prescribed Way Of Life?-When there was distortion of Salaat Allah went out of His way to address the distortions and correct them. If there was originally 3 Salaat and this became distorted over time then why didn?t Allah address this in the Qur?aan and restore it back to 3 Salaat like how Allah restored Wudu and the tone of voice (in the Qur?aan) etc. when we do Salaat. In my research I have went into far greater detail in this area. Please re-examine this area. This argument right here is very damaging to the proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory?
I have placed a link in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? where you can see a video clip of Rashad Khalifa break down the 5 Salaat times or periods in the Qur?aan and he made it so crystal clear. Below is the direct link, check it out
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/rashadkhalifa.htm
I also placed another debate on Salaat between Omar Edibat & Basma Khalifa (who belongs to Rashad Khalifa's community called The Submitters). There was some good information in this debate that I believe will beneficial for you in terms of your research. You can view this debate by going to my website
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
After that scroll all the way down to the bottom and click on the link under ?Recources? and then another page will pop up and click on the link to examine this debate.
You also highlight your perspective on Maghrib and Isha Salaat. First I would like to thank you for your suggestion. It would also be nice if you could have pin pointed or highlighted your arguments or points so that it will be much clearer for me to analyze. Please highlight the verses that I used and explain why you do not fully comprehend that they are two separate periods to perform or observe Salaat. Also please examine the DEBATE that I mentioned up above because your question was also addressed in that DEBATE and perhaps the answers to your question may surface. Sometimes it helps when another person explains the same thing differently or another way. Masha Allah.
Salaam
Peace Al Khidr
Thank you for posting this informative article. Let me just start off by stating that I am thoroughly confused by the mess we've collectively made of Salat. Everyone has their own twist on it, which leads me to believe that there needs to be alot more work done on this subject, so that's excellent that you've added your work too. Hopefully, we can eventually get to some consensus after all the bugs have been worked out - God Willing.
As for questioning the sincerity of any who uphold the 3 Salat Theory, I think it would be wise to leave that up to God. I doubt anyone is out to corrupt Islam. In my opinion, when we use ijtihad to find the truth in the quran, we come from a genuine need to know. Our conclusions may result in a misunderstanding, but that is why they are called theories. It's a work in progress. He may be wrong, but that doesn't equate to him being a "psuedo-Muslim".
As for your analysis, I'd like to raise some points just to get a discussion started, and hopefully it will be a good learning experience for all involved.
In regards to the difference between Zuhr Salat and Asr Salat, the verses you posted do not seem to be referring to two separate prayers. They could in fact be referring to one and the same. Perhaps there is something else you can add to this part of the article to prove that they are in fact two separate prayers. If there isn't anything that proves that then one can infer that they could be one prayer in the middle of the day when "duluk ashams" occurs (when the sun begins to decline).
One thing that I have a problem grasping, is how there can be something labelled a "middle prayer" when there are 5 in total. Which one is the middle one ? In a row of five apples, if one were to ask me to choose the middle one, I would be puzzled as to which would be considered a "middle" of 5. Is it the third one? The second one? This is one reason why I haven't fully thrown out the 3 salat theory, while still not fully accepting it either. The reason why I don't fully accept it is because Rashad Khalifa claimed to have mathematically confirmed the 5 salat with all the rakaat traditionally done. While I haven't confirmed his work in this regard, someone I trust did and found that it works out. Of course, that's not enough evidence for me until I can 100% accept either theory, 3 or 5.
Again there is the same issue with your analysis of Maghreb Salat and Eisha Salat. The verses you referred to can also be referring to the same salat and not necessarily to different times. I didn't find any analysis to prove that they are in fact two separate times stipulated, which again might be something you want to work through.
Peace all
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Salaam Arnold
You have said this
?Nubians had a 5-time worship doesn't prove a thing. The Jews for example have three?
Arnold which Jews are you talking about here? Because the original Jews originally called Hebrews (which is in actuality a title) observed 5 Salaat. Remember Abraham was a considered a Hebrew and he observed Salaat. Moses who was considered a Hebrew and he observed Salaat. The Nubians of antiquity pre-dates all of them (Abraham and Moses even though they are the same race of people) and they wrote on the walls of the pyramids how they calculated the times for Salaat (which is the same as Muslims) and how they observed 5 Salaat. Abraham and Moses studied in ancient Nubia. The Nubians of antiquity also predates the ones that you mentioned here
?Then you also have the Persians, but i researched them, and their 5 time prayers was introduced 300 years after Zarusthra(See the book Irano-Aryan Faith and Doctrine by Albert pike).?
The problem with you Arnold is that you are not taking our people back far enough in time. Talk with idolfree1, he will definitely kick down some knowledge to you about Nubians of antiquity where it all started from. Arnold let me introduce you to a real scholar, his name is Ashra Kwesi http//kemetnu.com. I also provided a link of scholars to provide in depth resources on the Nubians on my website. Albert Pike cannot touch them.
As I have highlighted earlier your position leaning on 3 Salaat is an opinion, I can?t wait until you finish your research and presented to give myself and many others the opportunity to dissect it and I predict that if your research falls under the ?3 Salaat Theory? your research will end up like A. Muhammad REFUTED.
You have said this
?If i made the wrong conclusion on you being biased, i sincerely apologize, but i based it on the language you used in your article.?
I really appreciate what you said there. In addition, I really hope that you and I don?t go down that alley again in regards to how some one should approach TRUTH etc. etc. etc. Lets dwell with the real question at hand and that is can the 5 or 3 Salaat be proven or not. I have presented my research and clearly proven beyond doubt that Allah authorized 5 Salaat, Alhamdulillah. I cannot wait until you present yours.
This is another thing you addressed
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I have received many positive responses by Muslims around the world concerning my research.So do i, also from Muslim scholars, but that doesn't prove a thing does it??
The purpose was not to prove anything with that statement, that statement was only design to be aligned with your opinions that you opened up with on this thread. The people here wants truth and not opinions and assumptions and how should some one approach the matter etc. etc. Lets look at the raw data as is and draw conclusions and that is why I can?t wait until you present your research.
You have said this
?This is also an assumption, as to where does Allah say He restored the salaat? He doesn't say that in the Quran.?
What I have demonstrated that Allah restored some aspects of Salaat in the Qur?aan that has been distorted with time. I am not the first to highlight this, many Muslims have done this before who follow Qur?aan ALONE. And I notice that you have said this
?Who says He restored the wudoo
Those so-called sectarian Muslims who follow hadiyth will have any where between 7 to 9 steps to do wudu or ablution. The steps came from the various conflicting ahadiyth. The original steps have been tampered with, distorted, changed and Allah restored the original back to its pristine purity of 4 steps, read
Qur?aan 56
O you who believe, when you observe the Salaat, you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles.I have thoroughly went over this in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory?. Allah has addressed some aspects of Salaat that has been distorted and if Prophet Muhammad and Muslims were originally practicing 3 Salaat, then why didn?t Allah address this distortion in the Qur?aan like He addresses other aspects of Salaat (and restore it back to 3 Salaat like Allah did wudu and tone of voice etc. in the Qur?aan) that has been distorted. It?s a damaging argument to the proponents of the 3 Salaat Theory such as yourself who leans towards it. Despite all that Arnold I have gave clear verses in the Qur?aan that demonstrate 5 Salaat. It is very clear that 3 has no bases in Qur?aan, again I can?t wait until you present your research. Hadiyth were first written and compiled 250 years after Prophet Muhammad, are we prepared to say that the Muslim within the 250 years did not know how to observe Salaat? Of course not Salaat was well established and kept intact by Allah?s leave. My research took of from the Qur?aan all the way back to remotest antiquity where 5 Salaat was practiced by the original Nubians. Again idolfree1 can kick you down some knowledge in regards to that. Allah tells us in the Qur?aan that He sent Messengers/Warners to all Nations/Communities so we know the presence of Al Islaam was there in Mother Africa that gave birth to the entire human family. Take it or leave it alone! Alhamdulillah.
P.S.
We will be waiting for you to transend your opinions/statments into FACTS once you present your research. But right now at the present Arnold you have not intellectually REFUTED my arguments. -
As Salaamu Alaykum To All Muslims
There has been an increasing divide among Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE on the amount of times we are suppose to perform Salaat. A small group or fraction of Muslims teach that Allah only authorized 3 Salaat times in the Qur'aan while the rest of the Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE and the entire Muslim world teach that Allah authorized 5 Salaat times or periods in the Qur'aan. We want all Muslims (no matter what persuasion you come from) to know that TAWHIYD has completed their extensive research on this heated subject and have laid to rest the FINAL ARGUMENT. We have dissected the "3 Salaat Theory" and intellectually DESTROYED it, beyond doubt. Visit the link below to examine yourself
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
Salaam
Walaikum Salaam Brother Al-Khidr ..
Applause !!!
This was truly an excellent post. You've done a marvellous job refuting the baseless arguments of 3 salaats.
I must save this outstanding research in my pc and send it around. May Allah (The Highest) grant you the best in both the worlds for your highly intelligent and superb research and untiring effort, ameen.
Z ..
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Peace Khidr,
I have just gone through the link you provided...Your argument (or the author`s argument) for a 5 Salat time is clearly flawed based on using mistranslations by the original article you are refuting.
For example, the verses which speak of Salat timing (specifically 11114 and 1778-79) both clearly speak of 3 times. However, in your article you attack a mistranslation of 11114 which showed 2 times, and then proceed to show that it is correctly 3, then you make the leap of logic as if you have found a missing Salat the author had missed and therefore you are now able to continue on to 5.
Also, the article author does not seem to know the difference between a Muslim and a Mumin, and thus ends up speaking of Salat for the wrong audience group.
On a final note, the author then goes on to promote the false
5-pillarswhich were originally coined by Abu Huraira as being the main tenants of faith...God teaches us to walk in Hisstraight path, not to walk in the Sunni/Abu Huraira path of destruction. -
peace zainab,
please tell me you were being sarcastic.
No I wasn't. You can't even understand the simple English I write, so how can you be expected to follow the translations of the Qur'aan.
And of course, with regard to some other replies .. whining "mistranslation" is the standard excuse to save face at FM. That's nothing new and it won't change nothing either. The manipulative, concocted and twisted propaganda of the 3 salaat conspiracy was always in very poor shape, and now it's in shreds and tatters.
Concerning FM's endless and needless hullabaloo over something as simple as the 5 pillars .. the Qur'aan is loud & clear about the unity of God and He has no partners. It's just as clear saying that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets. It mentions the profound importance of salaat, almsgiving and fasting. And it mentions the importance of performing pilgrimage for those who are able to perform it. That's it. These are precisely what the 5 pillars are about.
It's all over .. now back to work ..
Bravo! And thanks to Al-Khidr yet again.
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Arnold which Jews are you talking about here? Because the original Jews originally called Hebrews (which is in actuality a title) observed 5 Salaat.
I have talked with Orthodox-Jews and Messiah-Jews(Nazarenes) who believe in Jesus, and they all have 3 prayers, based on their scriptures. In their literature there is no proof for 5 time prayer as far as i know. So i wonder where is your proof for this, next to the Nubians. To assume that the Nubians did 5 times, doesn't immediatly say the Hebrews took it over. When we find proof for that in their scriptures or ancient Hebrew literature they don't follow anymore, then we have evidence. For now, we only have an assumption the Hebrews took the Nubian-timing over.
Remember Abraham was a considered a Hebrew and he observed Salaat. Moses who was considered a Hebrew and he observed Salaat. The Nubians of antiquity pre-dates all of them (Abraham and Moses even though they are the same race of people) and they wrote on the walls of the pyramids how they calculated the times for Salaat (which is the same as Muslims) and how they observed 5 Salaat. Abraham and Moses studied in ancient Nubia. The Nubians of antiquity also predates the ones that you mentioned here
?Then you also have the Persians, but i researched them, and their 5 time prayers was introduced 300 years after Zarusthra(See the book Irano-Aryan Faith and Doctrine by Albert pike).?
The problem with you Arnold is that you are not taking our people back far enough in time.
The problem here is, that you don't have proof Moses or Abraham took the 5 time over from the Nubians, except drawing the conclusion that your 5-time findings in the Quran are correct, then you may assume they took it over. Till i checked every little detail if the Quran says 5 times, your 'the nubians did it' proof is useless, as you have no proof Moses and Abraham took it over.
You agree with me then, that Allah send messengers to ALL nations? Yes? Then we have to research every ancient people to see if they have a 5-time prayer/ritual. The Nubians are only one people. To use it as evidence we need more.
Arnold let me introduce you to a real scholar, his name is Ashra Kwesi http//kemetnu.com. I also provided a link of scholars to provide in depth resources on the Nubians on my website. Albert Pike cannot touch them.
I will check his work, thank you. But do you know Albert Pike's work? Do you know any of his books and research? If not, then your 'real scholar' comment is unwarranted. Do you know his work? Albert Pike is a renounned scholar, and one of the first scholars to prove pure monotheism in most religions, he showed that in most ancient religions started as monotheism and were turned into polytheism. He carefully studied the Persian scriptures and history and proved what i mentioned earlier.
Lets dwell with the real question at hand and that is can the 5 or 3 Salaat be proven or not. I have presented my research and clearly proven beyond doubt that Allah authorized 5 Salaat, Alhamdulillah. I cannot wait until you present yours.
Agree, let's keep it business-like and proffesional.
You have said this
?This is also an assumption, as to where does Allah say He restored the salaat? He doesn't say that in the Quran.?
What I have demonstrated that Allah restored some aspects of Salaat in the Qur?aan that has been distorted with time. I am not the first to highlight this, many Muslims have done this before who follow Qur?aan ALONE. And I notice that you have said this
Also many muslims have shown that the salaat is complete inside the Quran. Numbers don't count, evidence does.
?Who says He restored the wudoo
Those so-called sectarian Muslims who follow hadiyth will have any where between 7 to 9 steps to do wudu or ablution. The steps came from the various conflicting ahadiyth. The original steps have been tampered with, distorted, changed and Allah restored the original back to its pristine purity of 4 steps, read
Restored it back? That verse was under their eyes for the last 1200 years! That they ignore it, is something else then saying that God 'restored' it. That people will finally follow the Quranic wudoo, is because they will accept the Quran in total again, so then it is their acceptance of the Quran alone that is restored. But to say that the Quran 'restored' a cleaning ritual, when it is already under their eyes for 1200 years is a wrong statement. If you proof that it was during the revelations-time already wrong, then you can say it was restored. But you only have one verse that says that their salaat was just clapping and whisteling. So you cannot really say the wudoo was 'restored' by that verse, as it was already there all the time, that they rediscover it and follow it is something else.
Qur?aan 56
O you who believe, when you observe the Salaat, you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles.I see a direct order how to do it, not a restoration of something distorted in Muhammed's time.
I have thoroughly went over this in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory?. Allah has addressed some aspects of Salaat that has been distorted and if Prophet Muhammad and Muslims were originally practicing 3 Salaat, then why didn?t Allah address this distortion in the Qur?aan like He addresses other aspects of Salaat (and restore it back to 3 Salaat like Allah did wudu and tone of voice etc. in the Qur?aan) that has been distorted.
How do you know it was distorted in Muhammed's time? How do you know the verses of wudoo and tone of voice are restorations? I read in them direct orders, not that it 'corrects' something, it just tells us something. You only have one verse that tells the people of the prophet
salaat is fake, but you don't know which part of that is fake. You assume that it is the wudoo,voice and so on. I believe it is because they mentioned other names next to God which made it fake as God mentiones this in the Quran. He doesn't say anywhere that He restored it. This is an assumption and an opinion.Hadiyth were first written and compiled 250 years after Prophet Muhammad, are we prepared to say that the Muslim within the 250 years did not know how to observe Salaat? Of course not Salaat was well established and kept intact by Allah?s leave.
Maybe because it is complete inside the Quran? Maybe that is why they didn't need any hadith? Isn't that the distortion? That they deviaded from the Quran alone and used hadith after 250 years?
My research took of from the Qur?aan all the way back to remotest antiquity where 5 Salaat was practiced by the original Nubians. Again idolfree1 can kick you down some knowledge in regards to that. Allah tells us in the Qur?aan that He sent Messengers/Warners to all Nations/Communities so we know the presence of Al Islaam was there in Mother Africa that gave birth to the entire human family. Take it or leave it alone! Alhamdulillah.
Aha, to ALL nations. You only focus on the Nubians! You neglect about a 10.000 other nations. SO the research must focus on ALL the nations of the world and not just one. One nation is no proof at all. There
were people all over the world estabilshing nations around the same time as the nubians. They have found stone cities from around 50.000 years old. So this 'proof' is not any proof at all. When we see evidence emerge, let's say 60% of ALL ancient people from around the world having a 5-time ritual, then we are on to something, till then, your Nubian proof is no proof at all, it is only the 1% of the 60% you need to prove this theory.And idolfree does the salaat different then you, so ask him about that too....
P.S.
We will be waiting for you to transend your opinions/statments into FACTS once you present your research. But right now at the present Arnold you have not intellectually REFUTED my arguments.Answer my questions above and show that 60% of the ancient world knew a 5-time ritual, then you have evidence. And you also have to proof, that in muhammed's time, the wudoo was incorrect, as you only have an assumption it was distorted, you have no proof at all. And the idea that the wudoo was 'restored' after 1200 years is not correct, as it was under their eyes for 1200 years, they negelected it for that long, and most of them will keep on neglecting it. So it is not the wudoo that is restored, but the following of the Quran alone that is restored. Big difference.
Peace
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As Salaamu Alaykum Layth
I just read your post. I am the one who wrote the link that I provided in this forum. Layth you are clever but not that clever, thus your post was designed to redirect the Muslim mind into believing the ?3 Salaat Theory?. As we all know Layth such attempts cannot be successful without evidence. One thing that we have to make very clear is that you have not provided evidence to demonstrate your arguments. We are waiting for that, especially some of the Progressive Muslims who believe in the ?3 Salaat Theory?.
Let me point out a clear and direct error that you made with your statement below
?On a final note, the author then goes on to promote the false
5-pillarswhich were originally coined by Abu Huraira as being the main tenants of faith...God teaches us to walk in Hisstraight path, not to walk in the Sunni/Abu Huraira path of destruction.?Those of us who are well informed noticed that you said, ??the false ?5-Pillars? which were originally coined by Abu Huraira as being the main tenants of faith??
My partners and I could not help but laugh because such errors are common among those that are mentally and spiritually trapped in schools of thoughts created by sects. Layth when you ascribe to sectarian belief systems (such as yourself) one?s intellectual faculties becomes locked in man-made religious sects, schools of thoughts, beliefs systems, emotions, thus, they cannot see anything out side of that artificial barrier or empty void. Islam is from Allah, it?s a way of life that frees the mind to higher levels of knowledge/mathematics. The clear and evident mistake that YOU made was pin-point the ?5 Pillars Of Faith? to a hadiyth that you found. Layth the Nubians of antiquity pre-dates those hadiyths that was compiled & written over 250 years after Prophet Muhammad?s death and I have proven through clear evidence that the original Nubians (Egyptians) was practicing the 5 Pillars Of Faith before the so-called Abu Huraira was even thought of. Your error is a direct result of your lack of knowledge of the ancient Nubians that dominated the land called today AFRICA. Layth you are not taking our people back far enough. You may want to consult with the other moderator who goes by the name of Idolfree1 because the same resources that I provided, he is aware of the scholars, and anybody who has knowledge of African History, knows that it is a well established fact, which is documented, that the Nubians practiced the 5 Pillars Of Faith long before Abraham and Muhammad (even though they belong to the same family lineage) and definitely before Abu Huraira. Islaam was clearly in Ancient Africa unless you believe that Allah sent Messagers/Warners/Prophets to all Nations/Communities except Africa? Here are some links that I placed in ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? that I wrote where you can obtain some evidences to conduct your research in this area
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/resources.htm
and
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/nubia.htm
Layth take yourself out of that narrow school of thought and broaden your horizons, your knowledge. There is a history the predates the satanic innovations called hadiyth and this is a history that most have been blindly lead to believe don?t exist, for the obvious reasons. I have proven the 5 Pillars Of Faith existed since the days of remotest of antiquity. Layth, your jonny-come-lately account won?t cut it.
I also want to add that the 5 Pillars Of Faith is not designed to address Islaam in it?s total completeness, its designed to address Islaam in a nutshell and its not a violation of Qur?aan to use the 5 Pillars Of Faith to address Islaam in a nutshell. I had this dialogue with Tanveermd and I had to put him in his place in regarding this issue he attempted to challenge me with. You can analyze our dialogue/debate at this thread I started a while back
Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.0I challenge you Layth since you take exception to the ?5 Pillars Of Faith?, prove to me in the Qur?aan that it?s a violation of the Qur?aan to use the 5 Pillars Of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell.
Layth, I notice that you have made an attempt to create the illusion that the foundation of my arguments were based on a mistranslation by the person I wrote a rebuttal to. Again Layth you are clever but not that clever, any body who has read my rebuttal exposing the false ?3 Salaat Theory? knows otherwise. Sister Zainab demonstrated that. I know it?s hard when a superior form a knowledge come on the scene and destroys a belief system that people who blindly would love to continue to cling on. We are supposed to strive for right knowledge, mathematics, the truth Islaam, not man-made dogmas such as the ?3 Salaat Theory?. A fraction of Muslims among the Progressive Muslims are promoting ?3 Salaat Theory?, the Arabic word ?Salaat? has been mutilated by a concocted translation of ?bond? or ?james bond (smile)? and Aidid Safar translating Salaat as ?the commitment?, what next? It is very clear that there is a wicked game of playing fast and loose with the translations of Al Qur?aan to water down the presence of Islaam. Layth my arguments are NOT diminished to exposing a mistranslations, Sister Zainab said it right when she said
?And of course, with regard to some other replies .. whining "mistranslation" is the standard excuse to save face at FM. That's nothing new and it won't change nothing either. The manipulative, concocted and twisted propaganda of the 3 salaat conspiracy was always in very poor shape, and now it's in shreds and tatters.?
I have proved my points in the original Arabic, I exposed mistranslations, false interpretations, I used several sources and much much much more to prove that Allah infact authorized 5 Salaat and not 3 and again much more. Layth are you sure you read my complete rebuttal? At the presence Layth you have not intellectually REFUTED any of my arguments.
When are you going to get down to business and intellectually dissect my arguments to prove that the 5 Salaat are not authorized by Allah in the Qur?aan and prove your unfounded theory of 3 Salaat? Simply posting statements/opinions Layth that are not substantiated with evidence is not doing the job. If you want to just post comments that are statement/opinion oriented that?s fine. One thing people who follow Qur?aan ALONE around the world (out side the Progressive Muslims) know that Allah authorized 5 Salaat, it is clear as daylight in the Qur?aan. Many people have noticed that the sub-fraction of Progressive Muslims that are promoting this ?3 Salaat Theory? really does not have any thorough articles/literature/books etc. conclusively backing it up, that right there would make one wonder or become suspicious of the validity of the ?3 Salaat Theory?. At the present Layth you have not refuted any of my arguments and to be frank I don?t think you can nor prove your baseless unfounded ?3 Salaat Theory??
Peace Khidr,
I have just gone through the link you provided...Your argument (or the author`s argument) for a 5 Salat time is clearly flawed based on using mistranslations by the original article you are refuting.
For example, the verses which speak of Salat timing (specifically 11114 and 1778-79) both clearly speak of 3 times. However, in your article you attack a mistranslation of 11114 which showed 2 times, and then proceed to show that it is correctly 3, then you make the leap of logic as if you have found a missing Salat the author had missed and therefore you are now able to continue on to 5.
Also, the article author does not seem to know the difference between a Muslim and a Mumin, and thus ends up speaking of Salat for the wrong audience group.
On a final note, the author then goes on to promote the false
5-pillarswhich were originally coined by Abu Huraira as being the main tenants of faith...God teaches us to walk in Hisstraight path, not to walk in the Sunni/Abu Huraira path of destruction. -
As Salaamu Alaykum Sister Zainab
Its nice to have your presence here. Alhamdulillah we have soldiers like your self standing firm on TRUTH. They might as well face reality that the "3 Salaat Theory" was in bad shape from the beginning like you have said and now its been completed annhilated with the TRUTH of Al Qur'aan. Zainab I have posted this in the forum sometime after I performed Fajr and notice that no one here has been able to intellectually REFUTE or DESTROY my arguments, all they have been doing here was posting opinions/statements/emotions but not substance from the Qur'aan. This right here says alot. If they promote the "3 Salaat Theory" they should have the evidence to back up their doctrine but as we can clearly see they do not.
Yes sister Zainab feel free to copy the research "Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory". I have received a lot of good feedback from Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE and the traditionalist. Muslims can use this as a tool to combat this false theory. These few Muslims here are out of their league with thier baseless unfounded "3 Salaat Theory"
TRUTH IS TRUTH!
Salaam
peace zainab,
please tell me you were being sarcastic.
No I wasn't. You can't even understand the simple English I write, so how can you be expected to follow the translations of the Qur'aan.
And of course, with regard to some other replies .. whining "mistranslation" is the standard excuse to save face at FM. That's nothing new and it won't change nothing either. The manipulative, concocted and twisted propaganda of the 3 salaat conspiracy was always in very poor shape, and now it's in shreds and tatters.
Concerning FM's endless and needless hullabaloo over something as simple as the 5 pillars .. the Qur'aan is loud & clear about the unity of God and He has no partners. It's just as clear saying that Muhammad is the Messenger of God and the Seal of the Prophets. It mentions the profound importance of salaat, almsgiving and fasting. And it mentions the importance of performing pilgrimage for those who are able to perform it. That's it. These are precisely what the 5 pillars are about.
It's all over .. now back to work ..
Bravo! And thanks to Al-Khidr yet again.
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Dear Khidr,
First of all, I commend you on your attained certainty in that what you are following is the truth...We are all commanded to verify and study under God`s guidance and mercy.
Secondly, I am sorry to hear that you and your partners had to
laughat the discussion in this post which is supposed to be centered around Gods words and laws (lets hope you are not laughing as those described in 23110 did).Thirdly, your assertion that the 5 pillars were found since the Nubiens shows two things
a) You and your
well informedpartners were not informed enough to know that the first man to receive the system of God after the great flood was Abraham (see 212 and that we are followers of that same creed given to Abraham (see 6161) and not some people who may have had their own Abu Huraira before Abraham.b) You and your partners do not realize that the Scripture is our one and only law (see 547) and that we are forbidden to take our laws concerning God`s system from outside this source (be that source the Satanic Hadiths or the writings of the Nubians or Talmud followers, etc.).
Now, back to the subject of the three or five Salat times.
If you wish to discuss this issue in a mature and serious manner, then kindly provide the verses that show 5 times and I will adress them directly...If indeed the Scripture shows 5 times, then I will be the first to submit to the will of God without question or doubt.
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Salaam Arnold
I see that you still do not get enough.
You have said this
?Aha, to ALL nations. You only focus on the Nubians! You neglect about a 10.000 other nations. SO the research must focus on ALL the nations of the world and not just one.?
I suspected that you have not read my entire rebuttal or is it just your emotions that causes you to take things out of context? Arnold I have taken Islaam all the way back to the first civilization in Mother Africa. In other words I went to the source. The African people were here on the planet before any other race/civilization that has emerged and I clearly demonstrated that in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, but for some reason it does not surprise me that you would have a problem with that. Now Arnold if you would have carefully read my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, you would have seen that I expanded the concepts I expounded on outside the Nubian Race or Civilization in Africa and proof of this is my direct quote, which you have ignored for the obvious reasons
?They never worshipped the sun (Ra), they worshipped Allah. This has been twisted and distorted by those who re-wrote history or ?his-story? and have passed that down to us, without question. If we just accept what we have been told every since we were kids, then we would believe foolishness such as that. This is why you have to verify information on your own and not just accept what society has brainwashed the masses with. Its funny to sit back and see how they have re-written history and made all advanced ancient civilizations that was developed by people of color appear to be idol worshippers who worshipped statues, planets, stars, animals etc. and they (Europeans) came and civilized them and taught them that the Creator was One. The truth of the matter is, it was the other way around.?
Notice that I said this, ?Its funny to sit back and see how they have re-written history and made all advanced ancient civilizations that was developed by people of color appear to be idol worshippers who worshipped statues, planets, stars, animals etc. and they (Europeans) came and civilized them and taught them that the Creator was One. The truth of the matter is, it was the other way around.? which clearly demonstrates that I acknowledge other ancient advance civilizations teaching TAWHIYD. I also highlighted resources of Ahmed Deedat and one of them is a DVD that he produce and in that DVD he said clearly that his people in India were advance and they believed in the One Creator.
Arnold, TRUTH will prevail regardless to your resistance. You should read my entire rebuttal instead of taking things out of context.
I laughed when you said this
?And idolfree does the salaat different then you, so ask him about that too....?
I did not mention Idolfree1 for Salaat. I mentioned him as a resource that you can go to because he is aware of the advance civilization of the Nubians of antiquity and he is aware of the profound scholars that I have mentioned as resources. So in other words I would hope he would kick you down some knowledge of Nubian History, because you need it with all your conjectures.
You have said this
?I have talked with Orthodox-Jews and Messiah-Jews(Nazarenes) who believe in Jesus, and they all have 3 prayers, based on their scriptures. In their literature there is no proof for 5 time prayer as far as i know. So i wonder where is your proof for this, next to the Nubians.?
I really do not think that you spoke with the original Jews. It sounds like you spoke with European Jews who uphold the Talmud over the Scripture (Torah) that Allah revealed to the original Hebrews who were Muslims. The Jews you spoke to uphold Judaism which is a false concocted religion and according the Al Qur?aan the only religion accepted by Allah is Islaam
Qur?aan 319
The only religion approved by Allah is Islaam. Those who received the scripture dispute this fact, knowingly. This is due to jealousy on their part. For those who reject Allah?s revelations, Allah is most strict in reckoning.Qur?aan 386
Anyone who accepts other than Islaam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter, he will be with the losers.The word ?Jew? and ?Judaism? are not original names used by the original people that we are identifying as ?Hebrew?. In Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew language there is no letter ?J?, so those terms are concoctions to be brief. Now we commonly know Abraham and his descendents as ?HEBREWS?, but before Abraham was called a ?Hebrew? what was he before? Again your theological commentary schools are not taking our people back far enough; you are coming forth with that same brainwashed distortion of History or His-Story, which is something deferent then accurate historical data as Malcolm X made known. The word or term itself ?Hebrew? is really not a name of a race, its really a title that was given to Abraham when he crossed the Tigris-Eurphrates River but before that title was associated with Abraham, he was here and what was he before than? Now you want further evidence that the original Hebrew who you like to call Jews were Muslims were Muslims. I will be happy to provide you with evidence from Qur?aan
Allah says that Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian
Qur?aan 367
Abraham was NOT a Jew NOR a Christian but he was upright, a Muslim. He was not an idol worshiper.Also read the following verses so that you can see how the original Semitic people were Muslims (2278; 364; 5111; 352)
Qur?aan 384
Say, ?We believe in Allah, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes and in what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To him alone we are Muslims.In addition to (Qur?aan 319; 386) their way of life or religion was Islaam take it or leave it alone
Qur?aan 4213-14
13. He has prescribed for you the SAME religion, which He decreed on Noah, and what We have sent by inspired to you, and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus ?You shall uphold this one religion and do not divide it.? The idol worshippers will resent what you invite them to do. Allah redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself everyone who submits in peace.
14. Ironically, they broke up into sects-only after the knowledge had come to them-due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Sustainer to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, these later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.Arnold notice Allah, not I said that He (Allah) prescribed or decreed the SAME religion on Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and that is because they were Muslims and their way of life was Islaam. If you existed back then and you were talking about some ?judaism or jew?, they would like at you crazy because those new terms did not exist back then. Again the enemy wants to wipe out the presence of Islaam. I personally don?t know what book you are reading but according to the Qur?aan they were Muslims and their religion or way of life was Islaam, take it or leave it alone
They also performed Salaat and if you don?t know just ask me and I will give you the verse with Salaat mentioned. Perhaps you can?t see this with the new translation of ?bond?.
You have said this
?Albert Pike is a renounned scholar, and one of the first scholars to prove pure monotheism in most religions, he showed that in most ancient religions started as monotheism and were turned into polytheism. He carefully studied the Persian scriptures and history and proved what i mentioned earlier.?
Albert Pike was not one of the first, in actuality he is just another jonny-come-lately.
Below is an excellent link that proves Salaat
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/findsalaatinquraan.htm
One of my partner told me to tell you this
"Why don't this guy refute your arguements on the 5 Salaat position, instead of wasting time with baseless rhetoric"
Perhaps Arnold you hold the secret answer to this?
Salaam
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Salaam Arnold
I see that you still do not get enough.
Peace,
i'm just discussing matters...you think you covered all grounds which is not true.
You have said this
?Aha, to ALL nations. You only focus on the Nubians! You neglect about a 10.000 other nations. SO the research must focus on ALL the nations of the world and not just one.?
I suspected that you have not read my entire rebuttal or is it just your emotions that causes you to take things out of context? Arnold I have taken Islaam all the way back to the first civilization in Mother Africa. In other words I went to the source. The African people were here on the planet before any other race/civilization that has emerged and I clearly demonstrated that in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, but for some reason it does not surprise me that you would have a problem with that. Now Arnold if you would have carefully read my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, you would have seen that I expanded the concepts I expounded on outside the Nubian Race or Civilization in Africa and proof of this is my direct quote, which you have ignored for the obvious reasons
And you neglected my comment. The Nubians were not the first civilation. This is an assumption by certain scholars. There has now been several discoveries over the whole world showing marks of civilation going back to over 60.000 years. Our species, homo sapiens are around for at least 200.000 years. Mesopotamia and Africa were
the first centers for civilation after the last ice age. There has been found traces of cities that go back beyond 50.000 years. If you think the cities of the Nubians were the first civilations you need some more homework. Ok, but let's focus on the Nubians, then the 5-time must be traced also with every civilation coming after it, or at least to be found at 60% of the generations after them. The traces should be left.
I didn't neglect it at all. The point is that one civilation is not enough. That is my point, even it is one of the first. As for the concept of tahweed in ancient civilations, i knew that for long already, and i have written articles on it. But we are focussing on the prayer.Arnold, TRUTH will prevail regardless to your resistance. You should read my entire rebuttal instead of taking things out of context.
And you don't get it, that i'm not resisting. I'm discussing certain points which need more research next to the research on the Quran. You think i'm 'fighting' your idea which i'm not. I'm just discussing the issues you use as evidence to see if it is really enough.
You have said this
?I have talked with Orthodox-Jews and Messiah-Jews(Nazarenes) who believe in Jesus, and they all have 3 prayers, based on their scriptures. In their literature there is no proof for 5 time prayer as far as i know. So i wonder where is your proof for this, next to the Nubians.?
I really do not think that you spoke with the original Jews. It sounds like you spoke with European Jews who uphold the Talmud over the Scripture (Torah) that Allah revealed to the original Hebrews who were Muslims. The Jews you spoke to uphold Judaism which is a false concocted religion and according the Al Qur?aan the only religion accepted by Allah is Islaam.
For one, i know perfectly well what the Quran says, and second, i don't support the bond/commitment translation either. Again an assumption you make. I'm against that translation as i believe the term salaat has different meanings throughout the text based on the context. The point was, if the concept of 5-times was still to be found in their scriptures or ancient scriptures they neglect nowadays. You need to read more carefully. I know perfectly well, that the Quran says they followed Islam and distorted it. But this wasn't the point at all.
You have said this
?Albert Pike is a renounned scholar, and one of the first scholars to prove pure monotheism in most religions, he showed that in most ancient religions started as monotheism and were turned into polytheism. He carefully studied the Persian scriptures and history and proved what i mentioned earlier.?
Albert Pike was not one of the first, in actuality he is just another jonny-come-lately.
Do you know which Pike i'm talking about? Because the Pike i'm talking about is from 1850......so i'm wondering which person you're talking about that lived before him and wrote about this...
"Why don't this guy refute your arguements on the 5 Salaat position, instead of wasting time with baseless rhetoric"
I'm not focussed on 'refuting'. I'm researching if it is 3 or 5. If it's 5, we will agree maybe on how it was found, if it was 3, then we can debate again. As for now, i was just pointing out some details. Some were even meant as tips to help you. Sadly you took them as 'attacks'.
I'm not refuting 5 or 3. I look at the evidences as i'm told too in 1736.
Peace
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Salaam all,
Hm... I got the PM and it turns out we have quite a discussion here.
While I agree that for al-Salat, each prescribed time does not need to have a proper name, I am still weighing the article.
My first question is about 1718 which is translated in the article as follows
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset...The transliteration is
aqimi aS-Salata lidulooki ash-shamsi ila ghasaqi allayli...I don't have a good command in Arabic, so if anyone can point to me where the phrase "the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards" I would really appreciate it. Because as far as I know, "ash-shamsi" means "sun" and "ghasaqi" means "night". I am rather curious where the understanding of "from its highest point at noon" came from. If it is "dulooki" then from what I can gather in Lane's Lexicon, its meaning are "rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun)". I'm not sure if this word is a solid evidence for the above translation used in the article. However, as I said above that I don't have a good command in Arabic, perhaps I'm totally wrong anyway in this regard.
And regarding the 19 with the number of raka'ats, I still consider the article at http//www.quran-islam.org/178.html to shed some light regarding this issue. This article addresses 19 with the 43244 format just as impressive, at least to me. Well, anyway, I'm still weighing on this one. Thanks for the article though.
=adley=
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Peace Brother
The 3 or 5 salat has been a big debate but that is good. I like some of the insight you highlighted. I have viewed the article myself to. In that article Al Khidr broke down the Arabic in that verse and I also looked at many English translations and explanations and they all confirm what Khidr said and these Muslim was before Khidr. I read Layth response to Khidr and he said that 11114 and 1778 refers to 3 prayers and if this is true then there is definately a 5 salat in Qur'an. Take a look at the section that Khidr broke down in Arabic and compare to all English translations and if all possible look up the words every Muslim is saying the same thing that it refers to 3 prayer times.
I have read the article that u left on the number of rakaat. But you know if Muslims all over the world was doing the same rakaat before the mathemtical code 19 was discovered in 1974 and that mathematical code confirms the number of rakaats, I personally do not believe that is a coincidence it would be hard for me to accept that it was a coincidence. I can see how code 19 backs it up. It backs up what Muslims have always been doing before it was discovered 1974. I really found these links highly impressive
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/findsalaatinquraan.htm
http//www.submission.org/salat/preserved.html
http//www.submission.org/salat19.html
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/quraantheultimatemiracle.htm
and beside he proved what Muslim have always been saying and practising 5 salat
Salaam all,
Hm... I got the PM and it turns out we have quite a discussion here. D
While I agree that for al-Salat, each prescribed time does not need to have a proper name, I am still weighing the article.
My first question is about 1718 which is translated in the article as follows
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset...The transliteration is
aqimi aS-Salata lidulooki ash-shamsi ila ghasaqi allayli...I don't have a good command in Arabic, so if anyone can point to me where the phrase "the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards" I would really appreciate it. Because as far as I know, "ash-shamsi" means "sun" and "ghasaqi" means "night". I am rather curious where the understanding of "from its highest point at noon" came from. If it is "dulooki" then from what I can gather in Lane's Lexicon, its meaning are "rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun)". I'm not sure if this word is a solid evidence for the above translation used in the article. However, as I said above that I don't have a good command in Arabic, perhaps I'm totally wrong anyway in this regard.
And regarding the 19 with the number of raka'ats, I still consider the article at http//www.quran-islam.org/178.html to shed some light regarding this issue. This article addresses 19 with the 43244 format just as impressive, at least to me. Well, anyway, I'm still weighing on this one. Thanks for the article though.
=adley=
