Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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Peace
Brother Arnold everybody knows that Africa was the first civilization and gave birth to the world. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you need to come off that. we are in the year 2006 going into 2007 this is common understanding.
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Peace
I need to first tell you bro Khidr, I apologize, I realized today that I didn't read the complete article before I sent in my first post. I was adding my comments as I went thru the article, so as not to forget anything, then I got distracted and came back thinking I was done and sent the post thru... that's what happens when I try using my brain so early in the morning
Upon complete reading of your entire article, along with the sources you provided, I find your article extremely compelling. I think I am very near to reaching a conclusion I can 100% feel at ease with. God Bless you, Brother and increase you in knowledge. However, I think seeing the debate through fully will be beneficial to me before reaching a final conclusion. A full disection of all points is necessary for anyone to reach a just conclusion.
So I think a good place to start, is the much-debated verse, 11114. I think everyone who has participated in this thread so far agree with you that 3 separate times of SALAT are mentioned in this aya, contrary to A. Mohamed's argument (am i right)? So we all agree on the following three times for prayer, according to said aya
1-Sunrise
2-Sunset
3-NightAs bro adley mentioned, 1778 now refers to a Salat at "dulook ashams". If we agree that this means the midpoint of the day when the sun begins it's decline, then this would in fact be a fourth Salat. Could anyone explain how it would fall under one of the three above mentioned times?
So as not to digress from this point, the rest of this post is just my general comments on the rest of your research
As for your interesting points of Ancient Egypt, it is well known that the Nubians were in fact NOT Egyptians, as well as the area of Kush, and Punt if I'm not mistaken. They all were Black African. They all did PRECEDE the advent of the ancient Egyptians. However not all Nubians were Egyptians. DNA testing has proven that the Ancient Egyptians were of a Afro-Semitic race. Incidentally, Kemet, as you rightfully pointed out as the real name for Egypt, means Black Land- Black here is used as a positive connotation meaning fertile, rich, prosperous - a point in time where "black" didn't have the negative connotations we find today as brother Malcolm X truthfully explained to us; but rather positive connotations. I'm also very interested in reading about Ancient Egypt, as I am Egyptian. I think it is something all Egyptians should admire, but more importantly all of Africa, and most importantly all of mankind because we are in fact one people. This ancient civilization is an affirmation of the advancements a society can achieve in the absence of oppression of others and more importantly the absence of any supression of free thinking. It can be duely noted their demise occurred when opression became rampant and they transgressed all boundaries in God's Way. Racism and arrogance has no room in Islam, which leads me to another point I thoroughly enjoyed - your point that the quran in fact states man was made of black clay. Science in fact proves this to us and so we have another reason to thank God for the knowledge He has bestowed on us - Praise be to God.
And after reading everyone's posts, I didn't see anyone denying these scientific facts and quranic facts... I think bro Arnold was explaining that ancient Egypt is not the end all be all evidence and that if we are to use the premise of looking at an ancient civilization to come to the conclusion of how many Salat were issued, we would have to look at more than one and basically get an overwhelming majority of ancient civilizations doing the same thing... which I think he does have a point, although I don't know if examining ancient civilizations should even be any evidence at all. We would have to first decide whether God orders 5 or 3 Salat and then on a side note we can survey if any ancient civilzations were followers or not. But anyway, I'll let Arnold speak for himself as I know he can
So I'd love it if we can get some ideas going about aya 1778 in relationship to the times found in aya 11114
God Bless you all
Peace{Edited whoa I made alot of typos, I hope you all can understanding something thru that bunched up flow of thoughts }
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peace
the verse is actually 1778. And in my eyes it's the sunset prayer.
1778 Thou shall maintain the bond at the setting of the sun to the approach of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
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Peace
Thanks bro ! I meant 1778 for 'dulook ashams' specifically and what it means. hold on maybe i should edit my post for thatpeace
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i re-edited my post so dont worry
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peace
this article is contradictory
let me take one note from this article, then i will tell you how the author is contradicting him/herself
?The time for the dawn prayer is also given in the Quran with the words
" ??.. and at dawn as the stars fade away." 5249?
A. Muhammad, I want you to note that the Arabic words ?Salaat (Worship)? and ?Fajr (Dawn)? are not in this verse. Below is the Arabic break down of this verse
Look again A. Muhammad, the following Arabic words (Salaat & Fajr) are not in Qur?aan 5249
We have established that the author is saying that if it doesn't say salat in the ayah then it's not a prayer. Okay...
The author mentions 3018 in argument that it's talking about the noon prayer, while the word 'salat' is not mentioned here.
The author quotes 2238 as being 'asr'. While no specific timing is being mentioned in this verse.
I believe the author needs to cool down, and stop calling people names behind their backs (backbiting)
peace
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Peace Imran
I agree with you on the point of name - calling. I think it would be far better if we refrain from judging others based on their opinions/assertions/works in progress/etc. Let's just focus on the points being made and the validity of them without attacking character. This is not our way of life. I hope the rest of the posts from everyone comes from a spirit of brotherhood and a sincere desire to understand God's Word instead of just trying to be right in the end at all costs, even if it means stepping all over each other.
Peace all
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peace adley
I read layth's article on what you are referring to, and i'd say it's very convincing (to me)
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5971.0
So be patient to what they are saying, and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting. And from the night glorify Him, and *after prostrating.(5039-40)- After prostrating is in-line with the glorification of God outlined in 4103 after performing the Salat
`You shall be patient for the judgement of your Lord, for you are in Our sights; and glorify the praise of your Lord when you get up. Also from the night glorify Him and after the appearance of the stars. (5248-49)
`So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting and during the night glorify; *and at the edges of the day, so that you may be content. (20130)
- Edges of the day are the times of sunrise and sunset, so I am not clear what this repition means?
I am also very curious to his last point.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
I would like to draw everyone's attention to my previous post at the following thread which proves only 2 salaat from al-qur'aan (dawn and dusk) and contains proof from qur'aanic verses
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5270.0
The only acceptable evidence to determine the number of salaat recommended by Allah for mumineen is from al-qur'aan; all other historical evidence is not 100 % reliable and thus should not be considered to determine the number of salaat recommended by Allah for mumineen.
I have also already disproved the innovation of the "5 pillars" of al-islaam by qur'aanic verses in the thread at the following link and have shown that this phrase is inaccurate and thus cannot be used even to describe al-islaam in a nutshell
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.0
The article at the following link also exposes the "5 pillar" myth
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/pillars.htm
The innovation of "5 pillars" of al-islaam is based on a total lack of understanding of the difference between a muslim and a mumin according to al-qur'aan. The article at the following link explains the difference between muslim and mumin in al-islaam according to al-qur'aan
http//free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/mumin.htm
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace
Brother Arnold everybody knows that Africa was the first civilization and gave birth to the world. There is nothing wrong with that. I think you need to come off that. we are in the year 2006 going into 2007 this is common understanding.
Peace,
I believe it is time people should refresh their knowledge. We know now that civilations are much much older. The African civilations got their knowledge from previous civilations. They were certainly not the first. We don't know the first civilations, the foundations of a lot of holy sites and also their remains go back more then 10.000 years. And not the oppossed 3000 years. The sphinx alone is probably 10.000 years old. There have been found remains of older sites that some are guessed to be 50.000 years old. A lot of technologies can only be enherited from previous generations and are so advanced, we cannot imagine how sophisticated these previous generations were. When we investigate maps as the piri-reis map, we can see Antartica without ice. The map is so good, it is better then Columbus's map of America, it amazes mapmakers. This map can only be made when there was no ice on Antartica, that was 14.000 years ago. The map is so sophisticated and correct, this civilation had to be highly advanced. Every 20.000 years there are pole-shifts. When this happens, great floods and earthquakes happen. This has destroyed many civilations scientists believe now. As we have found traces of civialtions going back to 60.000 years that were highly advanced when we look at their building structure. A lot of these civilations ended up in myths, and some famous people ended up as gods with the later generations.
The Nubians and other great civilations of the past are not inventors of most of their technology. The buildings were far to sophisticated to be learned in such a short time. This knowledge they had to have gotten from previous people. Archeology had been ruled by the Church and white man for long, which determined what they wanted people to know. A lot of ancient cities in Africa were ignored, and evidences of civilations older then the biblical times were also ignored. And during the social-darwinism times, their concept of the age of homo sapiens determined their acceptance of evidences. If it proved mankind to be older then their ideas of the time, they just ignored it. Now our species is at least 100.000 to 200.000 years old, and scientists are starting to see that there had to be advanced civilations in the past which are now lost. Between now and 150.000 years ago, there has been so many enormous disasters that could have whiped out any trace. We find bits and pieces here and there, and are so amazing, it is hard for a lot of scientists to accept them.
Now it is becoming more accepted that the ancient world traded with each other. That Egypt knew about America and traded with them. That there was a lot of exchange of knowledge. That is why the Nubians are not enough as side-proof.
I have to investigate the arabic more before i judge it. That is why i'm not discussing it now. But i can give my arguments on the proofs that are given together with the arabic proof.
My points were things that need more investigation, they were not meant as counter-proof, but it was taken as such, which is sad. If the 5-time prayer is sunna-ta'Allah, then we need it to see more. Maybe it is just the practise given to the generations of the last 2000 years. God also says every nation/generation have been given their own rituals. So my points were meant as grounds that need more exploring.
Also the 5-pillars are non-quranic, as this was made-up 200 years after Muhammed and was based on a hadith in Bukhari. If we put all the things in the Quran side by side, we can get a 100-pillars, as there a lot more things that are also important in the Quran.
Peace
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Wa Laykum As Salaam Soul2Squeeze
It?s nice to hear from you again. I would like to humbly thank you for your compliments, your thoughts, your insight on the subject matter, your suggestions and I would also like to thank you for taking the time out to read my rebuttal.
You have said this
?I need to first tell you bro Khidr, I apologize, I realized today that I didn't read the complete article before I sent in my first post. I was adding my comments as I went thru the article, so as not to forget anything, then I got distracted and came back thinking I was done and sent the post thru... that's what happens when I try using my brain so early in the morning?
That?s all cool, no problems.
You have said, ?A full disection of all points is necessary for anyone to reach a just conclusion.? I have to take my hat off to you because that is a wise and intelligent approach to any subject matter.
Yes Soul2Squeeze it?s very clear that Qur?aan 11114 is speaking of 3 Salaat and not 2 which are
- Dawn (Fajr)
- Maghrib (sunset)
- Night (Isha)
I was a little surprise to hear Layth and some other acknowledge that verse to refer to 3 Salaat and not 2 because some of the proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory? mistranslate and misinterpret that verse to say 2 Salaat. Having an understanding that Qur?aan 11114 in fact speak of 3 Salaat brings triumph to the Muslims around the world who observe 5 Salaat and I think that picture was very clear in my rebuttal.
You have said this
?As bro adley mentioned, 1778 now refers to a Salat at "dulook ashams". If we agree that this means the midpoint of the day when the sun begins it's decline, then this would in fact be a fourth Salat. Could anyone explain how it would fall under one of the three above mentioned times?
If I can let me try to shed some light on Qur?aan 1778.
Qur?aan 1778
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Qur?aan at dawn. (Reciting) the Qur?aan at dawn is witnessed.In my rebuttal I have highlighted some key Arabic words to make it crystal clear that this verse is referring to the following ranges for Salaat which are (Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha).
LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI- when the sun declines from its highest point. This is literally what the Arabic words are saying here. When the sun declines from its highest point, this period of time will be marked as the noon.
ILAA-as it moves towards
GHASAQI-sunset (darkness). This Arabic word is over looked in a lot of cases. Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary defines ?Ghasaq? as follows
?dusk, twilight, before night, dark of night?
As a result of the definition of GHASAQI, this would mark the time that we call sunset and this is very clear due to the meaning of this word. But note there is another Arabic word that follows or comes directly after GHASAQI and that Arabic word is AL LAYL. Note that AL LAYL is the same Arabic word found in Qur?aan 11114 and this word means NIGHT. In Qur?aan 11114 it referrs to the Isha (Night) Prayer or Salaat period. So in Qur?aan 1778, AL LAYL comes directly after the word GHASAQI. So Qur?aan 1778 is referring to the ranges of our Salaat time from when the sun declines from its highest point to Night time which is Isha. So the following ranges of our Salaat time would be from this verse 1778 (Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha). Please when you get a chance re-examine this section of my rebuttal.
Below is an excerpt from my rebuttal
?In Malik Ghulam Farid translation of the Qur?aan, I found an interesting tafsir for (177 that I would like to share with the readers of this rebuttal
?1641. Dalakat al-Shamsu means, (1) the sun declines from the meridian; (2) it became yellow; (3) it set. Ghasaq means, the darkness of the night, or when redness in the horizon after sunset disappears (Lane). This verse seems to denote the hours of the five daily Prayers of Islam. The three meanings of Duluk indicate the times of Afternoon Prayer, the Late Afternoon Prayer and the Sunset Prayer. The expression, Ghasaqil-Lail, includes the times of Sun-set Prayer but particularly refers to the Night Prayer, and the words Qur?an al-Fajr indicate the hour of the Morning Prayer.?
I want to highlight from Malik Ghulam Farid when he said, ?This verse seems to denote the hours of the five daily Prayers of Islam. The three meanings of Duluk indicate the times of Afternoon Prayer, the Late Afternoon Prayer and the Sunset Prayer. The expression, Ghasaqil-Lail, includes the times of Sun-set Prayer but particularly refers to the Night Prayer? Malik Ghulam Farid is demonstrating that Qur?aan 1778 is referring to the Salaat times or periods of Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha. This verse is very clear, it does not take a Muslim scholar to see and understand this.
Click on the link below to view a video clip from Dr. Rashad Khalifa breaking down the 5 Salaat times or periods, which are authorized by Allah in the Qur?aan
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/rashadkhalifa.htm?
This is something that All Muslims agree to whether they are scholars or not. The Qur?aan makes it very clear.
You have made this comment
?As for your interesting points of Ancient Egypt, it is well known that the Nubians were in fact NOT Egyptians, as well as the area of Kush, and Punt if I'm not mistaken. They all were Black African. They all did PRECEDE the advent of the ancient Egyptians. However not all Nubians were Egyptians. DNA testing has proven that the Ancient Egyptians were of a Afro-Semitic race.?
Sometimes I think we get lost in names that we use, especially the names the colonizer have used to classify us. The facts are the people that lived in upper and lower Egypt as is presently called which we all know that is not the correct name. But the people in upper and lower were in fact the same race, they were of the same racial stock. The various names that are used do not change the biological genetics of the people over there. Again they are the same race and actually DNA testing have proven that they are actually the same race. If we look at the term ?Afro-Semitic?, the word ?Afro? was a concoction from the European colonizers. The ancient people of that area never used the term ?Afro?.
You have said this
?I think it is something all Egyptians should admire, but more importantly all of Africa, and most importantly all of mankind because we are in fact one people.?
Alhamdulillah I am in full agreement with your on this point. The Ancient History of Africa has been suppressed again for the obvious reasons.
I have a question for you when you said
?as you rightfully pointed out as the real name for Egypt, means Black Land- Black here is used as a positive connotation meaning fertile, rich, prosperous - a point in time where "black" didn't have the negative connotations?
When you said, ?Black here is used as a positive connotation meaning fertile, rich, prosperous??, are you saying the word ?BLACK? didn?t mean the color BLACK because if so that is not correct? It is true the land was fertile, rich, fool of gold and prosperous but they (the original Nubians) clearly referred to themselves and their land using the connotation of the color BLACK. The word KMT (which we get Kamit) is a term they used to mean Blackness in the strongest sense. I would like to refer you to a book entitled, ?Egypt revisited? by Ivan Van Sertima. This book covers additional information on page 20-21, breaking down the language that Egyptian used to classify them as being BLACK in color as a people or race.
You have mentioned that you want additional information. There is an African scholar by the name of Ashra Kwesi and his Homepage is below
http//kemetnu.com
He as produced a lot of profound information in this area. He has a phone number on his homepage and anybody is welcome to call and speak with him. He is a cool brother. He also have an email on his site as another form of contact. Take the time out and check out his site. He has produced excellent DVD/Videos in this subject area. Below is another link for additional information
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/resources.htm
There is an excellent DVD called ?Egypt During The Golden Age? and it can be obtained at this site
http//www.melanet.com/clegg_series/
Also visit this link of their for additional information on the Nubians of Antiquity
http//www.melanet.com/clegg_series/guestbook.html
Below is a quote from this link which proves that they are the same race
?Evidence From Blood Types
Diop notes that even after hundreds of years of inter-mixture with foreign invaders, the blood type of modern Egyptians is the "same group B as the populations of western Africa on the Atlantic seaboard and not the A2 Group characteristic of the white race prior to any crossbreeding."DNA have indicated that our people are the same race even during ancient times in upper and lower Nubia or Egypt and throughout all of Africa.
I was delighted to see that you appreciated the section of my rebuttal that addressed Qur?aan 1528 where Allah clearly stated that the first or original man was BLACK. It?s a shame that some so-called Muslims have intentionally mistranslated that section, again for the obvious reasons.
I believe that you have mentioned Arnold. Arnold is typical and he promotes the same distortions of history of others that I outlined in my rebuttal. Look Arnold made the following statement on June 18, 2006, 065849 AM
?The Nubians were not the first civilation?
There is more to Arnold then meets the eye. Some people will always reject Africa as being the mother of all races and civilizations. All scientific evidence have proven that Africa was the first and the ancient Nubians had the first civilization. Science have traced the DNA back to the African race. The DNA was created by Allah and it is the foundation of our entire genetic code. His scholar Albert Pike in the 1850 did not have this scientific data.
Below was my response to Arnold about his conjecture of only acknowledging the Nubians as having knowledge of TAWHIYD etc. Now they were the first but not the only ones. But this is how I removed this conjecture in one of my previous post?I suspected that you have not read my entire rebuttal or is it just your emotions that causes you to take things out of context? Arnold I have taken Islaam all the way back to the first civilization in Mother Africa. In other words I went to the source. The African people were here on the planet before any other race/civilization that has emerged and I clearly demonstrated that in my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, but for some reason it does not surprise me that you would have a problem with that. Now Arnold if you would have carefully read my ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Thoery?, you would have seen that I expanded the concepts I expounded on outside the Nubian Race or Civilization in Africa and proof of this is my direct quote, which you have ignored for the obvious reasons
?They never worshipped the sun (Ra), they worshipped Allah. This has been twisted and distorted by those who re-wrote history or ?his-story? and have passed that down to us, without question. If we just accept what we have been told every since we were kids, then we would believe foolishness such as that. This is why you have to verify information on your own and not just accept what society has brainwashed the masses with. Its funny to sit back and see how they have re-written history and made all advanced ancient civilizations that was developed by people of color appear to be idol worshippers who worshipped statues, planets, stars, animals etc. and they (Europeans) came and civilized them and taught them that the Creator was One. The truth of the matter is, it was the other way around.?
Notice that I said this, ?Its funny to sit back and see how they have re-written history and made all advanced ancient civilizations that was developed by people of color appear to be idol worshippers who worshipped statues, planets, stars, animals etc. and they (Europeans) came and civilized them and taught them that the Creator was One. The truth of the matter is, it was the other way around.? which clearly demonstrates that I acknowledge other ancient advance civilizations teaching TAWHIYD. I also highlighted resources of Ahmed Deedat and one of them is a DVD that he produce and in that DVD he said clearly that his people in India were advance and they believed in the One Creator.
Arnold, TRUTH will prevail regardless to your resistance. You should read my entire rebuttal instead of taking things out of context.?
May I ask which side do you lean towards 5 or 3 Salaat? It was nice to hear from you again and I hope what I presented here helped. Masha Allah.
Salaam
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Salaam Imran K
You have said
?The author mentions 3018 in argument that it's talking about the noon prayer, while the word 'salat' is not mentioned here.
The author quotes 2238 as being 'asr'. While no specific timing is being mentioned in this verse.
I believe the author needs to cool down, and stop calling people names behind their backs (backbiting)?
Actually your points here are weak and there is definitely no contradiction that you have pointed out in the rebuttal that I wrote entitled ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory?
It is very important that we first need to map out in the Qur?aan how many Salaat are there. The controversy is 5 or 3. Notice that Qur?aan 2238 and Qur?aan 3018 states the ?MIDDLE?. Well if there is a 3 Salaat format in the Qur?aan then that MIDDLE prayer will fit right smack in the 3 format but if there is a 5 Salaat format then the MIDDLE prayer will fit right smack in the MIDDLE of the 5 format. That?s only common sense and that is why we have to map out first either 5 or 3 Salaat times or periods in the Qur?aan. In my rebuttal to the FASLE 3 Salaat Theory I have clearly proven that there are 5 Salaat and not 3, so logically speaking Qur?aan 2238 and Qur?aan 3018 fits right in the MIDDLE OF THE 5 FORMAT. Allah has clearly authorized 5 Salaat. Below is a video or visual presentation of the 5 Salaat periods being broken down in the Qur?aan
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/rashadkhalifa.htm
peace
this article is contradictory
let me take one note from this article, then i will tell you how the author is contradicting him/herself
?The time for the dawn prayer is also given in the Quran with the words
" ??.. and at dawn as the stars fade away." 5249?
A. Muhammad, I want you to note that the Arabic words ?Salaat (Worship)? and ?Fajr (Dawn)? are not in this verse. Below is the Arabic break down of this verse
Look again A. Muhammad, the following Arabic words (Salaat & Fajr) are not in Qur?aan 5249
We have established that the author is saying that if it doesn't say salat in the ayah then it's not a prayer. Okay...
The author mentions 3018 in argument that it's talking about the noon prayer, while the word 'salat' is not mentioned here.
The author quotes 2238 as being 'asr'. While no specific timing is being mentioned in this verse.
I believe the author needs to cool down, and stop calling people names behind their backs (backbiting)
peace
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Salaam Soul2Squeeze
I want to comment when I proved that the original Nubians of antiquity was observing the 5 Pillars Of Faith. You see that was not my premise. That was a piece of the puzzle to complete the premise. I have used various ways, strategies, documentations to conclusively prove that Allah autorized 5 Salaat. Those of us who have studied Nubian or African History knows that the Egyptians (Nubians) observed Salaat in the same manner as we Muslims do today. They calculated the time for prayer using the sun and they prayed 5 times a day, they observed Ramadaan, they made Hajj long before Abraham and Muhammad. That right there is strong evidence that says a lot but again it was not the final fanility of my premise it was a piece of it along with alot of saturated evidence that I provided.
Once again Soul2Squeeze, I would like to thank you again for your sincerity and your approach to this heated subject in this forum. I want to add that observing 5 Salaat which Allah authorized in the Qur'aan is established FACT among Muslims who follow Qur'aan ALONE around the world, thus we have no doubt when it comes to this. This is only a divided issue predominantly among the Progressive Muslims. Many Progressive Muslims observe 5 Salaat and there are some who are trying to spread the false 3 Salaat Theory and the sad thing is they do not have any literature/books/videos that really gets deep into the subject to prove 3 Salaat. This also raises suspicion on whether or not they can really back up their new doctrine of 3 Salaat. I believe my rebuttal was very thorough and laid this issue to rest but of course in the real world we will still find people observing the 3 Salaat Theory despite the overall evidence that Allah authorized 5.
Nubian Resources
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/resources.htmBreaking down the correct and proper name of our Creator
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htmSalaam
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Peace,
Al-khidr. Why do you think i reject Africa as the first civilation? Did i ever said that? No, certainly not. Only you make the biggest mistake there is. The Nubian and other ancient African sophisticated civilations go back to around 8000 years. But our species are older then 100.000 years. Yes, i agree that the first civilations have to have emerged in Africa. But those civilations were first started at least more then 60.000 years ago in Africa. This is something you neglect. There have been traces found all over the world of sophisticated civilations much older then the Nubians. But all of those have their origin in Africa were the first homo sapiens emerged 100.000-200.000 years ago. So you just traced back to a civilation that was one of the most important ones after the last ice age. That all humans have their origin in Africa is not to be doubted. But the civilations you refer too are certainly not the first civilations on earth.
The thing is why i mentioned all this, is that there was a lot of trade between the ancient world and a lot of exchange. Also, we need to find more traces of the 5-times with the people that were influenced by the Nubians, the generations that came after them. The concept of tawheed i never questioned. This has also nothing to do with my points.
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Salaam Arnold
Your statment here if flawed
"This is something you neglect. There have been traces found all over the world of sophisticated civilations much older then the Nubians."
You should really check the resources here and these resources are much on a higher level then Albert Pike 1850
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/resources.htmEvery single resource listed in that link refutes your statement up above. But I am not surpriced that you take that position. We have been hearing that garbage for centuries. The oldest bones have been found in Africa and also modern day science have traced the DNA to Africans (Blacks or Nubians) and that alone proves that they were first. This science undermines your flawed distorted research. But again this is not the first time and it will not be the last time we see attempts to undermind the Motherland AFRICA.
Can you provide list in your opinion of some of the civilizations that are older more sophisticated and older than Nubia?
You mentioned that you are doing some research on the Salaat issue. How much longer do we have until you release it?
When you said Albert Pike in one of your previous post I was thinking of another Albert Pike. But is the Albert Pike that you are speaking of in 1850 was freemason here at this link
http//freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/pike_a/pike_a.html
Peace,
Al-khidr. Why do you think i reject Africa as the first civilation? Did i ever said that? No, certainly not. Only you make the biggest mistake there is. The Nubian and other ancient African sophisticated civilations go back to around 8000 years. But our species are older then 100.000 years. Yes, i agree that the first civilations have to have emerged in Africa. But those civilations were first started at least more then 60.000 years ago in Africa. This is something you neglect. There have been traces found all over the world of sophisticated civilations much older then the Nubians. But all of those have their origin in Africa were the first homo sapiens emerged 100.000-200.000 years ago. So you just traced back to a civilation that was one of the most important ones after the last ice age. That all humans have their origin in Africa is not to be doubted. But the civilations you refer too are certainly not the first civilations on earth.
The thing is why i mentioned all this, is that there was a lot of trade between the ancient world and a lot of exchange. Also, we need to find more traces of the 5-times with the people that were influenced by the Nubians, the generations that came after them. The concept of tawheed i never questioned. This has also nothing to do with my points.
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Peace,
Why do you even think i got this from Albert Pike? You jump on some weird thoughts. I only mentioned him with the Persians. I don't use him for anything else. And yes, he was a freemason, but his book on the persian religion is a masterpiece. Truth is truth. Doesn't matter the source. I will post later on some things that will show the Nubians were the first civilation AFTER the last ice-age. The remains of a lot of sites, and things like the piri-reis map and other maps show there were advanced civilations before the last ice-age, also the sphinx prove already that the Nubians enherited their knowledge from previous advanced civilations. But that doesn't matter now.
The only thing that makes your argument more scientific is that more civilations of Africa and Mesopotamia have a 5-timed ritual. That would strenghten your position. Remember, this is not a counter to your article. Only some extra things you could include in your research. Don't jump that fast....
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Peace all,
Following is quoted from an article which mentions archeological evidences of existence of civilizations upto 45,000 plus years ago
"This Unexplained World
Shifting focus back to our own planet now. Generally when a certain point of mystery in our past is raised, or questions regarding the history of something, the scholars will tell us what happened, in so and so way. And that will get accepted, without much thinking on our part. But there are some things on this planet that are simply too weird for an explanation, and are hence not addressed by these 'scholars.' Here is a small list below, you may do a search to read more on it
A- Piri Reis Maps found in Topkapi Palace. This was found in the possession of a Turkish Navy Admiral. It was a map of the world, showing even North and South America and even Antarctica if the ice caps were to be removed. However, the map was seemingly distorted. A startling discovery showed that projecting the map onto a sphere would produce an exact view of how the world would appear if it were seen from a certain distance in space. How did our ancestors get a hold of this?
B- Straight geometrical lines, some intersect and form trapezoids, in Nazca, Peru. And they're not even roads, because they end abruptly.
C- Tiahuanaco is a city teeming with mysteries. Here, archaeologists founds an accurate calendar that gave the equinoxes, astronomical seasons and the positions of the moon at every hour. This is from 27,000 years ago.Also at Tiahuanaco, one can find huge sandstone blocks with accurate stonework on it, in seemingly impossible ways. There is also a Great Idol at the Old Temple, and the Gate of the Sun shows 'flying Gods' on it. Tiahuanaco also holds a legend of flying ships from the stars.
D- Sacsahuaman Giant Monolith, exquisitely carved and standing on its head.
E- In Ur, where the worlds oldest books exist, we find stories of "Great Gods" that come in flying ships.
F- Sumerians were one of the earliest civilizations that apparently appeared out of nowhere. Not only that, they were an advanced civilization They had advanced astronomy, and estimates on the rotation of the moon that differ from todays calculations by 0.4 seconds. Also found was a calculation with a 15 digit result. The Greeks at the peak of their civilization never went above 10,000. The Sumerians, apparently, also had huge spans of life. They have documented 10 kings that ruled for a total of 456,000 years.The Sumerians also relate a story of how the Gods had returned after the Great Flood. Some Akkadian tablets show Gods connected with helmets and stars. What's strange is that around the stars are planets of various sizes.
G- Drawing of spirals at Geoy Tepe from 6000 years ago.
H- A 40,000 year old flint industry at Gar Kobeh
I- A Similar one from 30,000 years ago at Baradostian
J- Figures and Tombs, 13,000 years old at Tepe Asiab
K- Tools, engravings and flints at Karim Shahir from the year 45000 BC
L- Helwan has a piece of cloth so fine that it is possible only in a specialized factory today.
M- Electric batteries that work on the galvanic principle are on display at the Baghdad Museum
N- A 10,000 year old star map in Kohistan
O- Smelted Platinum found in Peru
P- A rust proof Iron pillar in DelhiWhen evidence such as the ones mentioned above are brought into light, they are usually dismissed. Either the ancient civilizations were extremely advanced (and we've lost all their technology), or they had active imaginations. Yet the existence of these cannot be denied. Just about every culture, somewhere or the other, presents us with the same cave drawings, the same legends, the same flying Gods. Why? If it is indeed all lies, how did all of them come up with the same hair brained idea?"
The article is at the following link
http//mendhak.com/paranormal/other/show.php?id=41
The following article mentions archeological evidences of ancient Indian and Atlantian atomic weapons and aircraft technology capable of reaching outer space and anti-gravity technology about 20,000 years ago
http//dspace.dial.pipex.com/ritson/scispi/roswell/ancient.htm
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Peace,
Yes, and i have a lot of scientific articles and books on this, written by serious archeologists. I'm not an upholder of the 'alien visiting us' theories as humankind had 200.000 years to develope these technologies. There have been found ancient cities in the sea near India. Some Egyptian temples have stones above 2 tons, which cannot be lifted even today by the world biggest crane. The ancient roads that are mentioned above that are found near ancient temples, have been solved by a genius of a man. He found out that all ancient sites has these roads leading to nowhere. He started to compare them and found out that all of these point to the old north-poles. Like i said earlier, every so 20.000 years, the crust shifts and new land gets into the magnetic north pole position. When this happens, the whole earth gets flooded and quaked. These roads point to three ancient north-poles. One to modern north-pole, Greenland, the other to Hudson bay which was the North-pole of around 15000 years ago, and a area in Alaska which was the north-pole of around 40.000 years ago. To know these positions, can only be if this was passed on by previous civilations that were sophisticated enough to calculate these things and were present when the pole had this position. This means that 40.000 years ago there were civilations advanced enough to calculate these things and pass this knowledge on. This is only the tip of the ice-berg.
But for Al-khidr it important to show the 5-time pattern was passed on to the civilations after the Nubians. This would give his archeological evidence more strength. And Al-khidr, i do my research when i want to, not on your demand, so chill. I only discussed here, your extra evidence next to the Quranic evidence you wrote.
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Peace Arnold,
I also do not uphold "alien visiting us" theories; I just quoted from an article which mentions archeological evidences of existence of human civilizations 45,000 + years ago but I do not agree with the author's aliens = gods conjecture. I agree that humans had enough time to develop those technologies without any alien intervention. In fact I have a theory that the UFO's seen from time to time are actually built by an advanced human civilization hiding either underwater or in the Tibetan mountains, and these humans are the descendents of the advanced ancient human civilizations who somehow survived the destructions and preserved the ancient aircraft and other scientific technologies.
Following article mentions discovery of archeological evidence of the earliest human footprints dating 325,000-385,000 years ago, in southern Italy
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/03/0312_030312_firsttracks.html
Thus humans have had enough time to periodically develop amazing scientific technologies intermittently over the last 300,000 years; and the Nubians were DEFINITELY NOT THE FIRST HUMAN CIVILIZATION.