Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
-
Peace,
To give even more crazy data, Reck's skeleton found in 1950's if i'm correct, is a skeleton of a homo sapiens, carbon dated on being 3 million years old. But i don't agree with your advanced humans theory. I do believe there are secrets hidden by organisations, but most ufo-theories are mixing old mistakes of people seeing meteors and other things, and in the 20th century people seeing secret aircrafts. But there are a lot of mysteries left, that is for sure. The best evidence for now, give me a safe date of 200.000 years old that is based on several evidences. That again this date to be shifted to 300.000 years and further later on, will not surprise me.
Al-khidr, you again show blindness. How can i undermine Africa when i acknowledge it? The first humans are traced back beyond 100.000 years. You really believe the Nubians that arised less then 10.000 years ago are really the first civilation? Yes, the first civilation emerged from Africa, but not 10.000 years ago. No, that has to be at least 60.000 years ago. Do you know how many times archeologists had to revise their time-tables? I rather be carefull with your claims. Also you have NO proof from the Quran that Abraham ever studied in Egypt. None what so ever. The only evidence for that, you can get from the (so-called) Bible. The Quran only acknowledges Moses and Joseph being in Egypt, and the context of Moses's story show there were few who were monotheist in those times. I know they knew the concept of God, ALL people on earth know Him and acknowledge Him. There are only a handfull that doesn't acknowledge Him. So this is nothing special. Also the 5-pillars concept is non-Quranic as the Quran doesn't give these 5 as the only most important ones. This concept was created through hadith. The only thing that remains of any importants if your approach to the arabic is correct or not.
Peace
-
Salaam Arnold
You have said this
?Do you know how many times archeologists had to revise their time-tables? I rather be carefull with your claims. Also you have NO proof from the Quran that Abraham ever studied in Egypt. None what so ever. The only evidence for that, you can get from the (so-called) Bible.?
It?s funny to see you attempt to expound on history and that history is not recorded in the Qur?aan but yet you blindly take exception to the fact I said Abraham studied in Nubia (or Egypt as one would like to falsely call it). You Arnold hide behind the Qur?aan to attempt to dispel this fact. There is historical data, archeological data and more that proved Abraham studied in Nubia (and its not from that tampered so-called bible.) The evidence that I?m talking about goes beyond the bible. I am surpriced that you said ?so-called bible after all the problems you had with me using that expression in another thread?), And Abraham was not a so-called jew, which is a Yiddish name, thus he was Black and of the same seed or lineage of the Nubians themselves. Abraham and all the Prophets of Allah are direct descendants of Adam
Also Arnold in one of your previous post you indicated that the original Nubians (Egyptians) could not have built the Pyramids because the Pyramids were to advance. This right here stems from racist rhetoric. Some Caucasians would never want to attribute such multi-genius architect to the African Race. But again, coming from YOU, I?m not surprised. You are coming from that same old tired garbage that stems from ?his-story? infected with racism. Below is your statement
?The Nubians and other great civilizations of the past are not inventors of most of their technology. The buildings were far to sophisticated to be learned in such a short time?
The Pyramids Of Egypt Ancient Miracles In Stone
http//www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pyramids.htmlAncient Nubians Civilization
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/nubia.htmMalcolm X
http//www.cwo.com/~lucumi/malcolm.htmlYou have said this
?Also the 5-pillars concept is non-Quranic as the Quran doesn't give these 5 as the only most important ones. This concept was created through hadith. The only thing that remains of any importants if your approach to the arabic is correct or not.?
Layth raised the same issue and I will re-quote what I told Layth to respond to your quote up above
?I also want to add that the 5 Pillars Of Faith is not designed to address Islaam in it?s total completeness, its designed to address Islaam in a nutshell and its not a violation of Qur?aan to use the 5 Pillars Of Faith to address Islaam in a nutshell. I had this dialogue with Tanveermd and I had to put him in his place in regarding this issue he attempted to challenge me with. You can analyze our dialogue/debate at this thread I started a while back
Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.0I challenge you Layth since you take exception to the ?5 Pillars Of Faith?, prove to me in the Qur?aan that it?s a violation of the Qur?aan to use the 5 Pillars Of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell.?
I CHALLENGE you Arnold, just like I challenged Layth to show me any where in the Qur?aan that it?s a violation to use the 5 Pillars of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell? You have also made the same mistake as Layth and said the 5 Pillars comes from hadiyth and this is the problem you lack knowledge just like Layth on African History and you purposely want to over look the fact that the Nubians observed the 5 Pillars Of Faith, long before any hadiyth was written, long before Prophet Muhammad, long before Abraham etc. etc. Anybody who studies Ancient Africa knows this and this is why some people have made the mistake and say that the Qur?aan and Bible have been plagiarized because of this existing data etc. before the Books. These people make a big mistake when it comes to the Qur?aan because the Qur?aan was not plagiarized at all and I have addressed this aspect in my rebuttal. Now the so-called book the bible, yes has been plagiarized and fabricated by the hands of men who tried to pass it off as some Divine book.
In regards to your so-called FREEMASON scholar, who I am not impressed with. Below is a link on my stands on Albert Pikes background
http//gallery.bcentral.com/GID5142789P4666592-DVDs/African-Origin-of-Western-Freemasonry-DVD.aspx
The contents of this DVD are
?The contents of this DVD are Dynamic, visually documented, slide presentation lecture video exposes the African origin of symbols and concepts used in freemasonry. 2 hours.?
Arnold you should take the time to obtain this DVD because the scholars that you are dealing with will never address this or touch this subject matter.
-
Salaam
Some one in here mentioned the Sumerians, I just want to add that the original Sumerians were indeed Black and they themselves wrote that they came from the Nubians. This is not conjecture, they actually wrote this themselves. Also the Sumerians writing are younger then the Metu Neter written on the walls of the pyramids.
-
As Salaamu Alaykum To Everbody that is in this thread
After looking at the dialogue here, it appears that there is an Inserted effort to drift the minds away from the falsehood of the "3 Salaat Theory" by addressing every subject matter including Aliens visiting us. I believe this is by design because there are some here who love that "3 Salaat Theory" and want to cling on that belief system despite the fact that theory lacks support in the Qur'aan. I am the one who originally posted this thread. My RUBUTTAL exposing the false "3 Salaat Theory" can be found here
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
At the present it is very clear that those few Muslims under Progressive Muslims that believe in the "3 Salaat Theory" have not brought forth any strong subtance to intellectually refute my rebuttal which proves that Allah authorized 5 Salaat in the Holy Qur'aan. I believe this testimony says alot and again beware of the ones attempting to drift this subject into something else, they have even went to the point of talking about Aliens coming here but they have not REFUTTED my arguments. ALHAMDULILLAH!
-
Peace Al-khidr,
QUOTE
It?s funny to see you attempt to expound on history and that history is not recorded in the Qur?aan but yet you blindly take exception to the fact I said Abraham studied in Nubia (or Egypt as one would like to falsely call it). You Arnold hide behind the Qur?aan to attempt to dispel this fact.No, i'm just being carefull, as the Quran doesn't acknowledge it. So i'm carefull about historical facts when they are based on writings and inscriptions.
I am surpriced that you said ?so-called bible after all the problems you had with me using that expression in another thread?),
This was called sarcasm if you have used your mind......
And Abraham was not a so-called jew, which is a Yiddish name, thus he was Black and of the same seed or lineage of the Nubians themselves. Abraham and all the Prophets of Allah are direct descendants of Adam.
Who mentioned he was a Jew or showed any importants to it? Till now only you keep bringing that up....We are all direct descendants of Adam, but we all differ in skin colour still. We can determine Abraham's skin by the region he lived in, not because he is a descendant of Adam.
Quote
Also Arnold in one of your previous post you indicated that the original Nubians (Egyptians) could not have built the Pyramids because the Pyramids were to advance. This right here stems from racist rhetoric. Some Caucasians would never want to attribute such multi-genius architect to the African Race. But again, coming from YOU, I?m not surprised.This had nothing to do with racism, plus you don't know me, so how can you not be surprised? Because i'm white you believe i don't accept black people being the first advanced civilation? You're an ignorant man. Judging people you don't know and trying slandering them. In my post i say clearly the first advanced civilations were in Africa. I only disagree with you on the dates.
Again you make one most important mistake here. I believe they INHERITED from the predecessors. What skin colour would the predecessors of a BLACK people have??? Let me answer it for you BLACK! The sphinx is around 10.000 years old. If the Nubians or their also-BLACK predecessors build it, is still the question. But the Nubians didn't develope all that technology by themselves. Most they inherited and developed it further. Just like nowadays we develope the knowledge further that we inherited. I never questioned if black people couldn't develope it. I questioned if the Nubians were the first, as they were not. The first people to emerge in Africa is at least around 200.000 years ago. You believe it took 190.000 years to get out of the stone age? Now you are making the same mistake you accuse me of by following the scholars blindly. The first civilations did develop in Africa, but not 10.000 years ago. We are talking beyond 60.000 years ago at the least. The Nubians were the most developed after the last ice-age.
But you again focussed as i was refuting your whole article. I only disagreed with the Nubians being the first, i believe their ancestors(which only can be black!) were the first thousands of years before them, and that they inherited the knowledge and developed it further. I agree with your comment on the Sumerians, and the comments of a lot of scholars that they appeared out of nowhere fully developed shows that they had INHERITED their knowledge from their predecessors, the Nubians.
My main theory was( as to widen the view), that there were a lot of generations after the Nubians who then also took over the 5-time rituals. At least with 60% of the generations after the Nubians we should see traces of the 5-times, as God kept sending them messengers. This is scientific research. One people is not enough. To show that the 5-times was part again and again of the message of the prophets, it should be found with other people also. The tawheed is found with almost all people. Now the 5 time has to be seen re-emerging every so often. This was my point which was neglected again and again.
As for the five pillars. Yes they are of course to be found in the Quran. But what is the most important goal of the Quran? What is the main message of the Quran? Isn't that to develop and advance as a society as a whole? To cooperate as one people? Throughout the whole Quran this is the main message and it's goal. Why is this most important message not taking up in the pillars? Also let's see some lists God Himself gives as important and let's see if they are in the pillars. What are the 5 again?
1.Le illeh il Allah
2.perform Salaat
3.give zakaat
4.perform hajj
5.fastingWhere is the action to better the society? Also let's see some lists of God Himself
- This is The Book free of doubt and involution, a guidance for those who preserve themselves from evil and follow the straight path, 3. Who believe in the Unknown and fulfil their devotional obligations(salaat), and spend in charity of what We have given them;
- Who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed to those before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.
Aren't these four highlighted missing in these 5 pillars? And the Quran starts even with the above...
- Surely the believers and the Jews, Nazareans and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.
Again 2 most important missing from the list. So now we already would have a 11-pillar. And i believe i can extend this list to a 20-pillar if not more. So now, the 5 are in the Quran, but are these the only ones that are important? Certainly not. The Quran's main message is the betterment of society and that there is One God.
Pillars of Islam is absolutely non-Qur'anic. There is no such term as 'Imaad-id-Deen in the Book. But the "Imams" have designated Faith, Ritual prayer, 2.5% of wealth as Charity, Fasting and Pilgrimage as the so-called Five Pillars of Islam. They, however, abjectly fail to describe the building! Guarding human rights, benefiting people is the central theme in the Qur'an. Give and grow! Bukhari relates a strange and incomplete statement here, "The foundation of Islam is on five." Notice the word 'Pillars' missing even here, betraying the half-hearted attempt at forgery.
RITUALS VS ACTION
Read through the entire Qur'an. No nation was ever destroyed for a deficiency of rituals. Invariably, it was the violation of human rights that destroyed them.And again you refer to Pike which i only used for reference with the Persians. And how do you know which scholars i use? How do you know which books i read? Assumptions and assumptions. Judgement on judgement. I came here for a mature professional debate. Not "my scholar is better then yours contest and i know what you think without knowing you!" quiz.
Go read Graham Hancock's, Fingerprints of the gods and Underworld to get a start up. Also Charles Hapgood's Maps of the ancient sea-kings, and Forbidden Archeology by Cremo and Thompson.
Again you will take this whole post as an attack on you, which is sad. I only pointed out some details that could show more ideas about the 5-times in history. Instead you start accusing me of things i never meant with my post.
There was only one person here who posted something on aliens and also not accepting that part. Again you focus on one little detail which was not discussed. I focussed on the proof you give next to the Quran. Layth asked you to post the verses so to discuss them one by one. He has written the article here on free-minds on 3-times.
Peace
-
Salaam,
I only disagreed with the Nubians being the first, i believe their ancestors(which only can be black!) were the first thousands of years before them, and that they inherited the knowledge and developed it further.
I dont know what ur trying to say here arnold, even IF they got it from their ancestors, Their ancestors still a NUBIAN (which is from arabic word) and even if u go back to Adam the first man on earth who created the very first civilization on earth, He is still a NUBIAN (Black). And I believe u know that Allah create Adam from a Black mud.
People who study the origin of ancient Africa, have created different names for the race but the truth is they are THE SAME race, THE SAME people. Lots of people got stucked with different names like moors, egyptians, ethyopians, and on and on but what u must remember is they are THE SAME race.
Salaam
-
Peace,
And i don't know what you are trying to say here? Are you not repeating my words? Do i deny them being black? And God says in the Quran that He created Adam out of mud. Nowhere does He say Adam was created out of black mud. That the first people emerged in Africa is not to be doubted. The same race, yes and? What are you trying to say here? They didn't differ in skin colour but they differed in way of life. What has their skin to do with it? I don't really understand people are so focussed on the black thing. No one here made that an issue except you now and Al-khidr without any reasons. This is a baseless and useless discussion. Al-khidr, post your verses one by one, and people will discuss it....
-
Salaam Arnold
When I used the word Black, I was not just talking about skin color because Black people comes in all shades of skin color even of your complexion I was referring to something deeper like genetics. Another example Blacks can produce albinos who is absent of melanin but yet they are Black. Now this is your problem, in Qur'an the Arabic word Hamaa means Black. The translation that you are reading has deceptively covered this up for obvious reason but its very clear that the Arabic word Hamaa on that verse means Black.
Check ur Arabic Qur'an!!!I was looking at what Al Khidr was saying about you and I can see it more clearer now. On the surface you create the illusion that you have no problems with the origins of Black or African but when we look deeper beyond that surfice we can see RACISM.
This statement come out of the mouth of a racist,
"No one here made that an issue except you now and Al-khidr without any reasons. This is a baseless and useless discussion."
Go read Soul2Squeeze post. This subject is important and sensitive to the ones who have been victims of racism even in religion.
By the way Arnold the 5 Salaat has been proven.
Salaam
Peace,
And i don't know what you are trying to say here? Are you not repeating my words? Do i deny them being black? And God says in the Quran that He created Adam out of mud. Nowhere does He say Adam was created out of black mud. That the first people emerged in Africa is not to be doubted. The same race, yes and? What are you trying to say here? They didn't differ in skin colour but they differed in way of life. What has their skin to do with it? I don't really understand people are so focussed on the black thing. No one here made that an issue except you now and Al-khidr without any reasons. This is a baseless and useless discussion. Al-khidr, post your verses one by one, and people will discuss it....
-
Peace,
This is the most outragious claim i have ever encountered. You my friend, are discriminating. You approach me on the grounds of my skin-colour and use your prejudices you have against white people and reflect them on me. Nowhere in my posts do you read racism. Show me ONE thing that gives this notion. I pity you and Al-khidr for your behaviour. You 2 are the most childish and discriminating people i have encountered on forums. What has the Nubians being black to do with it? Why do you want to focus on that? Is it so important for you 2? Do you need them for your own selfesteem? Stop acting the victims my black friends would say. And my coloured girlfriend is laughing real hard now when she read your posts. Yes, in religion discrimination has ruled also, which is a crime. The Black history has been neglected and distorted. It is important that people learn the true history of the Black people. But to reflect that on me is childish. For me, white or black is not an issue. I don't see in colours. You 2 do. You have become like the people who judge you on your colour, pity you don't see that. It was about if the Nubians were enough as historical proof for the 5-times, which from a scientifical point of view is not. That was my point.
Can you give me the verses where it says 'hamaa' as indeed i'm dependent on translations. Thanx for the revisal.
Now, you 2 need some reflecting on your behaviour. Everyone that shows a little bit of disagreement is stamped pseudo-muslim and even now a racist. Based on what? Because i don't care if people are black or white? You 2 do care. You'll probably say this is because you are reminded of it every day by white people. Why do you 2 have become exactly like the people who do this to you? Reflect on that.
From the first day i became Muslim, i lost everything. Born Muslims always behaved as i was a child. A person who will never become fully muslim. My friends and family and all other dutch people who knew i was muslim, acted towards me as i was not 'part of them' any more. I became no-mans land. Non-muslims didn't accept me, and born muslims didn't accept me in total. I was looked upon by both sides. I started to understand what my black friends felt. It cannot be totaly compared, but i understood the feeling of being looked upon by your origins AND on what i believed. Now, my girlfriends family don't accept me because i'm white. Your judgement is so far off. You 2 have become from rape-victims to rapers yourselves. You are like Jews who use anti-semitism as an excuse to squash any disagreement.
Now, post the verses so they can be discussed, as we have gone off-topic. Act professional.
Peace
-
Salaam all,
Hmm... how did this thread begin to discuss something that is not about the main issue -- the number of aS-Salaat (in this case 3 or 5) based on the quran.
Perhaps later when things cool down a bit we can continue with the discussion of aS-Salaat, as I am sure there are a lot of people like me who is willing to learn more about this issue.
=adley=
-
Salaam,
Nowhere in my posts do you read racism.
The English language is a very deceptive language and we all know you do not have to say racist to be a racist. Racism is a deeper concept than a cheap shot like that. What you are doing is using reverse racism.
Can you give me the verses where it says 'hamaa'
Now how could u said that the HAMAA (Black) word was not there if u dont even know the verse that we are talking about? You claim you read Brother Khidr rebuttal if you did you know he presented this issue and addressed the racism behind it. The verse is 1528. Look with your own eyes and if you cant find it, u can ask ur arabic-speaking gf where is the "Hamaa" word at!!!
I can read quranic arabic and the word "HAMAA" is there and it means "BLACK" and the arabic word "SALSAAL" means "mud/clay". It is very obvious that you lack knowledge and understanding of the Arabic language.
Salaam
Peace,
This is the most outragious claim i have ever encountered. You my friend, are discriminating. You approach me on the grounds of my skin-colour and use your prejudices you have against white people and reflect them on me. Nowhere in my posts do you read racism. Show me ONE thing that gives this notion. I pity you and Al-khidr for your behaviour. You 2 are the most childish and discriminating people i have encountered on forums. What has the Nubians being black to do with it? Why do you want to focus on that? Is it so important for you 2? Do you need them for your own selfesteem? Stop acting the victims my black friends would say. And my coloured girlfriend is laughing real hard now when she read your posts. Yes, in religion discrimination has ruled also, which is a crime. The Black history has been neglected and distorted. It is important that people learn the true history of the Black people. But to reflect that on me is childish. For me, white or black is not an issue. I don't see in colours. You 2 do. You have become like the people who judge you on your colour, pity you don't see that. It was about if the Nubians were enough as historical proof for the 5-times, which from a scientifical point of view is not. That was my point.
Can you give me the verses where it says 'hamaa' as indeed i'm dependent on translations. Thanx for the revisal.
Now, you 2 need some reflecting on your behaviour. Everyone that shows a little bit of disagreement is stamped pseudo-muslim and even now a racist. Based on what? Because i don't care if people are black or white? You 2 do care. You'll probably say this is because you are reminded of it every day by white people. Why do you 2 have become exactly like the people who do this to you? Reflect on that.
From the first day i became Muslim, i lost everything. Born Muslims always behaved as i was a child. A person who will never become fully muslim. My friends and family and all other dutch people who knew i was muslim, acted towards me as i was not 'part of them' any more. I became no-mans land. Non-muslims didn't accept me, and born muslims didn't accept me in total. I was looked upon by both sides. I started to understand what my black friends felt. It cannot be totaly compared, but i understood the feeling of being looked upon by your origins AND on what i believed. Now, my girlfriends family don't accept me because i'm white. Your judgement is so far off. You 2 have become from rape-victims to rapers yourselves. You are like Jews who use anti-semitism as an excuse to squash any disagreement.
Now, post the verses so they can be discussed, as we have gone off-topic. Act professional.
Peace
-
Peace Adley, Arnold, all,
I posted the link to my discussion on the number of salaat according to al-qur'aan which is based on evidence from al-qur'aan and completely rebuts and demolishes the 5 salaat theory/conjecture but looks like no one has paid any attention to it in this thread, therefore, I am going to repost my discussion here in full with some minor revisions, as it is relevant to the current topic
QUR'AANIC DAYTIME AND QUR'AANIC NIGHT
I think most of the confusion arises because of the misunderstanding of the Qur'aanic daytime and the Qur'aanic night. According to the Qur'aan, "daytime" starts at beginning of dawn and ends at complete darkness. So dawn and dusk are included in "daytime". Qur'aanic "night" starts at sunset and ends at sunrise. So "night" includes dawn and dusk also. The "daytime" and the "night" therefore overlap at dawn and dusk. Please see the article at the following link for the Qur'aanic proof of this
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htm
Once this is established, it will become easier to find out the timings of "salaat" according to the Qur'aan.
QUR'AAN IS CLEAR
Allah says that the Qur'aan is clear and complete and has no doubt in it. It is us who create confusion in the word of Allah by trying to find something where it does not exist, due to our preconceived notions. Allah willing, we will see that Allah is very clear about the timings and the number of salaat in the Qur'aan.
THE COMPLETE SALAAT OF MUMINEEN IS MORE THAN JUST PRAISE AND GLORIFICATION OF ALLAH
Allah clearly uses the word "salaat" for salaat and not "praise" or "glorification". When the Quran mentions salaat to be upheld the word AQIMIS SALAH is used, not glorify (sabih) or remember (uzkur), or call (udu'u) or any other imperative. Of course "salaat" is for Allah's remembrance and praise but is not the only way of remembering and praising Allah and is also more than just praise and glorification of Allah. We can remember and praise Allah many times a day but lets try to find out how many times a day we are advised to uphold "salaat". When Allah tells us about the timings and names of "salaat", He clearly uses the word "salaat" in the verse, and not "praise" or "remembrance".
For that we have to see only those verses which are directly talking about "salaat". That eliminates 20130, 3017, 3018 as the "salaat" timing verses.
WHAT ABOUT SALAAT AL-WUSTA ?
"Salaat al-wusta" is WRONGLY translated as the "middle" prayer. "Wusta" is derived from the root "WST". The usage of the words derived from the root WST in the Qur'aan indicates that it always means "best" or "balanced" (589, 6826, 2143). For details, please see under the heading of SALAT AL-WUSTA in the article at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm (read this article after finishing my post please)
Please see the following thread also
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1171
Also if you examine 2238 closely you will find that it supports "wusta" meaning "best" or "most excellent" or "balanced" and not the name of an additional "middle" salat.
2238 Preserve/guard the salawaat (plural of salaat), and the best/balanced/moderate salat, and stand devoutly for God.
There are 2 proofs from the Qur'aan, that salat al-wusta is not an additional salaat
FIRST PROOF
All the "salaat" are automatically included in "salawaat"; it does not make any sense to say "and the middle salaat" after already mentioning all salaat; that would be redundant and illogical. "Salawaat" does not necessarily mean more than 2 salaat per day either. "Salawaat" can be referring to all the "salaat" in a person's life, e.g. in a month I might uphold sixty salaat; "salawaat" is referring to all those salaat.
SECOND PROOF
The word "wa" in the Qur'aan does not always separate 2 different subjects; it has also been used in the Qur'aan to separate two attributes of the same subject or to add explanation of a previously mentioned subject to clarify it.
For example
4113 And God has sent down to you the Book and the wisdom, and He has taught you that which you did not know. God's grace upon you is great.
Here the Book and the Wisdom refer to the same Qur'aan, they are not two different books. So Allah is mentioning two attributes of the same Qur'aan, separated by "wa". The Qur'aan is a book and it contains wisdom. So here the Book AND the Wisdom is not two different books but attributes of the same Qur'aan.
Another example
2148 And We had given Moses and Aaron the Criterion and a shining light and reminder for the righteous.
Here the Criterion is the shining light is the reminder. They are not 3 different books.
So in 2238 when Allah says "guard/preserve the salawaat AND salaat al-wusta", salaat al-wusta is an attribute of the salawaat, meaning THE BEST/BALANCED SALAT. The God wants that ALL OF OUR SALAT SHOULD BE BEST/BALANCED (upheld in the best possible or balanced manner). Salaat al-wusta is the pattern for EACH salaat that a believer should uphold, and here in this verse does not mean another salaat.
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as the middle salaat, then it would become very ambiguous to determine which salaat is the middle salaat. Where does it say in al-qur'aan that salaat al-fajr is the FIRST salaat ? WHICH SALAAT WOULD BE THE MIDDLE SALAAT IF THERE ARE 3 OR 5 SALAATS ? Depending on which salaat we ARBITRARILY declare as the first salaat, the middle salaat could be ANY salaat. How come Allah did not tell us which salaat is the middle salaat ? So how can we specially guard a salaat if it is unknown which salaat is being referred to as the middle salaat ?
TIMING VERSES FOR UPHOLDING SALAT
That leaves only the following verses which UNAMBIGUOUSLY and CLEARLY mention timing of salaat
TIMING VERSE 2458
2458 O you who believe, let those who are your dependants and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the dawn salaat, and should you take off your attire from being outdoors, and after the dusk salaat. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
This verse is self explanatory. In salaat al-fajr, the word "fajr" itself means dawn and in salaat al-'isha, the word "isha" itself means dusk. How come Allah did not mention salaat al-zuhr in this verse as the third time ? So now we have 2 salaat, one at dawn, and the other at dusk. So far it is very clear, agreed ?
TIMING VERSE 1778
1778 You shall uphold the salaat from the sun's "DULUK", to the darkness of the night, and the Qur'aan at dawn; the Qur'aan at dawn is witnessed.
What is "DULUK" ? This word is mentioned only one time in the Quran. Its root is DLK, which means "to rub or to massage". In this context (177 it means the rubbing of the sun at sunset (the context of the verse suggests that it is at sunset and not at sunrise). This word has been given another meaning (sun?s decline at noon) to confuse the issue but please read the article mentioned above in my post for refutation of that at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm (read it after finishing my post please)
LI DULUKI AL-SHAMSI means the sun's rubbing of the horizon at sunset. With the preposition LI, which means (in this case) just after, the very precise meaning of "li duluki al-shamsi" would be just after the sun goes beyond the horizon. So if we take this meaning then the first part of the verse would be translated as follow
"Uphold the salaat from when the sun goes beyond the horizon (after sunset) up to the darkness (twilight)".
The Qur'aan at dawn is synonymous with the salaat al-fajr; the most important part of upholding salat is oration of the Qur'aan.
Therefore this verse also confirms the same two times of upholding salat as 2458. So far 2458 is consistent with 1778.
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD, and not FOUR SALAATS. How can someone interpret this time period as that of four salaats ? THAT IS PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad.
TIMING VERSE 11114
11114 And you shall uphold the salaat at the two edges of the day, and the near part of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.
The words "tarafey alnahaar" mean the two ends or edges of the day. "Zulafam minal leyli" is a clarification and specification for these two ends, are they towards the day end or are they towards the night end ? This verse says they are towards the night. Here "wa" again does not mean two different timings but the phrase after the "wa" is a clarifying and explanatory phrase of the phrase preceding the "wa". I already explained this usage of "wa" earlier in my post.
Some people think that the word "zulafan" or "times close to" is in the plural and therefore can not stand for the two ends (dual) but this is not correct. Linguistically, it is correct and very natural to clarify and specify the dual with plural. The Quran in many places uses this combination (see 1675 they are two men but the verb is in the plural)
So in this verse Allah is telling us about the two times where the Qur'aanic night and the Qur'aanic daytime merge/overlap, i.e. dusk and dawn. (See earlier part of my post for explanation of the Qur'aanic daytime and night)
This verse 11114 therefore confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 1778. So far we have seen that all three verses 2458, 1778, and 11114 CONSISTENTLY mention the same timings for upholding salat. The only inescapable conclusion of this would be that Allah mentions only 2 timings to uphold salaat and mentions only 2 salaat by name in the Qur'aan, therefore there are a minimum of only TWO salat to be upheld by believers SALAAT AL-FAJR (at dawn) and SALAAT AL-'ISHA (at dusk).
Now please read the article at the following link for all the details concerning timings of salaat
http//www.free-minds.org/contact.htm
May Allah guide us all to the truth. Any comments or refutations based on the Qur'aan of the above post will be appreciated. The purpose is to seek the truth based on a proper understanding of the Qur'aan.
This above post completely demolishes and rebuts the 5 salaat theory based on evidence from al-qur'aan.
Best regards,
Tanveer
-
Salaam
I want to thank you very much Adley for what you have said. There are people here who wants to know the truth is the salat 3 or 5.
Arnold is becoming obsessed, you are going to far, you are taking this thread far far away from the original subject. I have to compliment Brother Al Khidr. I read his last post and he has made an attempt to redirect this thread back to the original subject. We want to know is the salat 3 or 5 we don't want this thread to go far off track like it has.
-
Salaam
I want to thank you very much Adley for what you have said. There are people here who wants to know the truth is the salat 3 or 5.
Arnold is becoming obsessed, you are going to far, you are taking this thread far far away from the original subject. I have to compliment Brother Al Khidr. I read his last post and he has made an attempt to redirect this thread back to the original subject. We want to know is the salat 3 or 5 we don't want this thread to go far off track like it has.
Walaikum Salaam dear brother .. you are speaking my language D
Such obsessions are common and notorious here when they get floored. Just ignore them and be focused on brother Al Khidr. -
Salaam Tanveer,
Thanks for reposting and revising the article. ;D So far, I agree with the 2 timing. One of the reason is that I still understand "duluk" as the rubbing of the sun (sunset). But, as I often said that I don't have a good command in Arabic, so I might be totally wrong. ;D
Well, I am currently re-evaluating my position of aS-Salaat when understanding it as a scheduled activity. Frankly, Layth's understanding of 3 times, which Wusta means at sunset and Isha at night, deserves another careful study because it could be right, at least for me.
My understanding regarding determining the number and time of as-Salaat, is that we do not need to rely on traditions. If I go by the assertion that the quran is complete, then I will not need to include external sources, including traditions, to determine the number and time of aS-Salaat.
=adley=
-
Salaam Zainab
Thank you for your response. I have look at Tanveer post I saw a lot of flaws in his arguments. he has missing links like the theory of evolution. One of those web links he gave was word for word writing from A. Muhammad who Khidr wrote his rebuttal to and it was the same stuff. Brother Al Khidr refuted his arguments in his original post. There is no way some one can get 2 Salaat from 11114. Just about every one here agrees that 11114 speaks to 3 Salaat even Layth said that 11114 refers to 3 Salaat. I think Tanveer needs to take another look at Brother Al Khidr's rebuttal again because he has missed a lot of points. There is 5 Salaat in Qur'an. Brother Khidr listed all of the verses anybody can read that with their own eyes. All Muslims are saying the same thing as Khidr.
Below are the 5 prayers but Allah do speak of people who will never see
(1) The Dawn (Fajr) prayer must be observed during two hours before sunrise (Qur?aan 11114 & Qur?aan 245
Qur?aan 11114
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.Now the proponents of the 3 Salaat Theory will acknowledge that the Dawn (Fajr) prayer is mentioned here, even though the word Fajr is not mentioned here by name and we will agree it is also talking about the Dawn (Fajr) Prayer. We will address our disagreement later concerning this verse. So now we have Dawn (Fajr) established.
Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.Again we have the Dawn Prayer established and this makes PRAYER 1.
(2) The Noon (Zuhr) Prayer is due when the sun declines from its highest point at noon (Qur?aan 177
Qur?aan 1778
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Qur?aan at dawn. (Reciting) the Qur?aan at dawn is witnessed.We have the Noon Prayer established and this makes PRAYER 2.
(3) The Afternoon (Asr) Prayer can be observed during the 3-4 hours preceding sunset (Qur?aan 223
Qur?aan 2238
You shall consistently observe the Salaat especially the middle Prayer (the afternoon Prayer), and devote yourselves totally to Allah alone.We have the Middle Prayer established, which is the afternoon Prayer and this makes PRAYER 3.
(4) The Sunset (Maghrib) prayer becomes due after sunset (Qur?aan 11114)
Qur?aan 11114
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.We have the Sunset Prayer established and this makes PRAYER 4.
(5) The Night (Isha) prayer can be observed after the twighlight disappears from the sky (Qur'aan 245
Qur?aan 2458
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your servants and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances-before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. Allah is Omniscient, Most Wise.We have the Night Prayer established and this makes PRAYER 5.
It is very clear that we have 5 Prayers mentioned in the Qur?aan
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458This right here from his rebuttal made it so clear to me that 11114 is referring to 3 Salaat periods
Waaqimi (You shall observe) + Al Salaat (worship-pray 5 times a day) + Tarafayin Nahar (at both ends of the day) + Wa (and) + Zulafan Mina Al Layl (during the night)
Brother Khidr also showed that so many Muslims translate this verse the same with the same meaning. There are 3 Salaat tiimes in 11114
Qur?aan 11114
You shall observe the contact prayers (salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.Translated by Rashad Khalifa
Qur?aan 11114
And observe Prayer at the two ends of the day and in some early hours of the night. Surely, the good deeds wipe out the evil ones. That is a reminder for those who would remember.Translated by Amatul Rahman Omar & Abdul Mannan Omar
Qur?aan 11114
And keep up prayer at the two ends of the day and in the first hours of the night. Surely good deeds take away evil deeds. This is a reminder for the mindful.Maulana Muhammad Ali
Qur?aan 11114
And observe Prayer at the two ends of the day, and in some hours of the night. Surely, good works drive away the evil ones. This is a reminder for those who would remember.Translated by Malik Ghulam Farid
Qur?aan 11114
And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds; this is a reminder to the mindful.Translated by M.H. Shakir
Qur?aan 11114
Establish you prayer at the two ends of the day, and in some watches of the night. Verily virtues obliterate vices. That is a reminder to the mindful.Translated by Abdul Majid Daryabadi
Layth and everybody in here agrees that 11114 is speaking of 3 Salaat
-
Peace all,
Layth and everybody in here agrees that 11114 is speaking of 3 Salaat
Not everyone in here agrees that 11114 is speaking of 3 salaat. There are many others, other than me, that agree that 11114 speaks of 2 salaat.
Waaqimi (You shall observe) + Al Salaat (worship-pray 5 times a day) + Tarafayin Nahar (at both ends of the day) + Wa (and) + Zulafan Mina Al Layl (during the night)
Firstly, "al-salaat" DOES NOT mean worship-pray as used in al-qur'aan.
Secondly, "zulafam min al-layl" cannot be translated as "during the night". It means "near part of night"; near to what ? the two edges/ends of daytime, so "zulafam min al-layl" is referring to two near parts of the night; so going by the faulty logic of it meaning a 3rd salaat, two parts of night would imply 2 more salaat, one near the fajr salaat and one near isha salaat, thus implying 4 salaats according to 11114.
I have already explained in my post that "wa" in arabic and in al-qur'aan does not always separate two different items, but it is also used in arabic and in al-qur'aan to separate two attributes of the same subject or to add explanation of a previously mentioned subject to clarify it, depending on the context. I gave examples from al-qur'aan to prove this also.
If the "wa" in 11114 is wrongly translated as implying separate/different salaat time then it would result in INCONSISTENT timings of salaat as per the three salaat timing verses 2458, 1778, and 11114. Also it would imply not 3 but 4 salaats per 11114 as I explained above. So according to the context of the three verses, "wa" in 11114 does not imply a different salaat time/times but adds explanation of the previously mentioned subject (two edges of daytime) to clarify it (i.e. which edges of daylight). Thus the inescapable conclusion is that 11114 could only be referring to two salaat times.
Peace
-
Peace Adley,
My understanding regarding determining the number and time of as-Salaat, is that we do not need to rely on traditions. If I go by the assertion that the quran is complete, then I will not need to include external sources, including traditions, to determine the number and time of aS-Salaat.
Agreed 100 %
One of the reason is that I still understand "duluk" as the rubbing of the sun (sunset). But, as I often said that I don't have a good command in Arabic, so I might be totally wrong.
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD, and not THREE OR FOUR SALAATS. How can someone interpret this time period as that of three or four salaats ? THAT IS PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad.
Frankly, Layth's understanding of 3 times, which Wusta means at sunset and Isha at night, deserves another careful study because it could be right, at least for me.
I have shown in my post how "wusta", logically and according to the usage of "wusta" in al-qur'aan, cannot possibly mean "middle" in the context of 2238.
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as the middle salaat, then it would become impossible to determine which salaat is the middle salaat. Where does it say in al-qur'aan that salaat al-fajr is the FIRST salaat ? WHICH SALAAT WOULD BE THE MIDDLE SALAAT IF THERE ARE 3 OR 5 SALAATS ? Depending on which salaat we ARBITRARILY declare as the first salaat, the middle salaat could be ANY salaat. How come Allah did not tell us which salaat is the middle salaat ? So how can we follow 2238 if it is unknown which salaat is being referred to as the middle salaat ?
Peace
-
Salaam Tanveermd
I have a question for you. What do you think about translating salaat as bond? Do you agree with this translation?