Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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peace all,
for those of you who think Arnold is obsessive about the 3 salat theory, let me tell you that he is not.
Some people here are being too childish, accusing others of being racist, psuedo muslims and what not.
leave all that crap out of your posts please. The title of this thread is proof of the arrogance of some people.About Al-khidr's article. It has some flaws, which i'm not going to go over (tanveer has, though). Al Khidr's language in that article is arrogant and full of baseless accusations. Why baseless?
because there has always been disagreement on the issue of salat. just because someone disagrees on something doesn't mean that he/she is an evil monster.
the points raised in that article have been discussed innumerable times on this forum.Another thing i don't like is people using history to explain the quran. Use the context, keep the history and opinions out of the discussions.
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Salam,
It's very bad to accuse someone of being a racist, especially on a forum like this and I wish some of the moderators will do something to erase oe move those bad posts out from this thread.
Peace Sis Maria
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Peace be upon you all,
Incorrect behavior has been reported. Please brothers and sisters, make an effort to LIVE the truth we are here discussing. The Good response is not equal to the bad response.
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Peace,
I don't really understand the idea of going off-topic. He claimed in his article certain concepts of history which i tried to discuss. It was part of his article and he brought it up himself in this thread the first time. Every time i said something he twisted it and ignored important parts. The history is just as important to them as the verses. The five pillars was important to them. Nemowati shows frustration of the highest degree. Now suddenly it is reversed racism. Please grow up...
As for 1528, i missed that verse. That is my mistake, i acknowledge that. Oh my God, i'm human! i make mistakes! Nooooooooooooooooooooo!
Prove my answer on the pillars is wrong.....And i anticipate the debate between Tanveer and the rest.
Peace
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The manipulative, concocted and twisted propaganda of the 3 salaat conspiracy was always in very poor shape, and now it's in shreds and tatters.
OMG! how do those bastards at FM sleep at night!????!!
)
me just make joke.Peace be upon you all,
Incorrect behavior has been reported. Please brothers and sisters, make an effort to LIVE the truth we are here discussing. The Good response is not equal to the bad response.
OMG! he's right!
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PEACE all
It's horrible to see brothers attacking brothers in such a way. Please, we are all on the same team here. If any of us knew all the answers we wouldn't be on this forum trying to gain understanding. i hope i never see another post with someone attacking his own brother ... haram. '( I think some people misunderstood bro Arnold's posts. He never disagreed with the first man originating in Africa.. he did mention it several times so let's assume the best out of each other and more importantly, as bro Adley pointed out - lets stay focused
Bro Tanveer, can you please elaborate on your understanding of the word wusta? I think the idea that best = wusta is an over-translation. We know from the quran that the best way is moderation or the middle road... and so perhaps this is an inference of the translation of wusta?
Peace
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Salaam Zainab
Thank you for your response. I have look at Tanveer post I saw a lot of flaws in his arguments. he has missing links like the theory of evolution. One of those web links he gave was word for word writing from A. Muhammad who Khidr wrote his rebuttal to and it was the same stuff. Brother Al Khidr refuted his arguments in his original post. There is no way some one can get 2 Salaat from 11114. Just about every one here agrees that 11114 speaks to 3 Salaat even Layth said that 11114 refers to 3 Salaat. I think Tanveer needs to take another look at Brother Al Khidr's rebuttal again because he has missed a lot of points. There is 5 Salaat in Qur'an. Brother Khidr listed all of the verses anybody can read that with their own eyes. All Muslims are saying the same thing as Khidr.
Wa'Salaam brother ..
A very good analysis, I must say! Simple and articulate.I read the translations of Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall which is commonly considered as about the most accurate of all. Of course, I never experienced this conflict about the number of daily salaats. For anyone with just an iota of perception, it's crystal clear that the Qur'aan says about 5 salaats daily .. no question about that, unless one intentionally refuses to see the obvious.
Below are the 5 prayers but Allah do speak of people who will never see
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr) given in 11114, 2458
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuhr), given in 1778 and 3018
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr), given in 2238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib), given in 11114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha), given in 2458Again, you are so correct in stating that "Allah does speak of people who will never see." Apart from the salaat issue, it's amazing to read how accurately the Glorious Qur'aan points to the psychological characteristics of so many humans .. most of all those who would love to change Allah's religion either for the sake of convenience or simply to establish their own mark of arrogance. They just forget that time flies a lot faster than one can fathom, and when the Day of the Tryst arrives and such creatures find themselves standing before Allah (The Majestic, The Most High), their wranglings will seem so trivial to them!
It reminds of those words "offer your prayers before prayers are offered for you."
Ah! Too little, too late!!Both brothers Al-Khidr and no_shirk have done a spectacular job on this very important topic. Allah bless.
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Salaam Tanveer,
Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD
Yes, this is what I can read from the translations as well, except if there is some grammatical rules that I don't know about.
Using translations, I understand the above ayat to explain a certain time period for doing salat, which is continuous. If I go by from the sun's rubbing (sunset) then the salat is performed then until the night arrives. But if I understand it by the sun in its peak (noon), then I still have to perform salat from noon until it gets dark. This is the main reason why I understand it better as rubbing (sunset). At least for now.
I have shown in my post how "wusta", logically and according to the usage of "wusta" in al-qur'aan, cannot possibly mean "middle" in the context of 2238.
Well, frankly, I also up to now understand it as balanced. I also understand salat more than just a scheduled activity performed with a certain sequence of movements, thus the word "wusta" conveys to me about something else besides timing. And, of course, this "balance" is not just an important aspect only when I'm doing physical/scheduled salat.
=adley=
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As Salaamu Alaykum To All Moderators and All Who showed interest in this thread
Before I get directly into my points, I must highlight the fact that
- Layth
- Arnold
- Tanveermd
All three of them have problems with my self using the 5 Pillar Of Faith as a means to explain Islaam in a nutshell. They made their point very clear that it is wrong. So what I have done was call all three of them to task and I CHALLENGED all three of them to show me a verse in the Qur?aan that proves that it is a violation (of Qur?aan) to use the 5 Pillars of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell and all three of them failed to produce one single verse. I think this says a lot and this is the type of antics that has been going on with them in this thread. Below is the thread to analyze this debate particularly between myself and Tanveer for all those who are interested
Did Muhammad Bring His Own Religion Called Islaam?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5711.0Idolfree1 made the following statement in this thread
?Incorrect behavior has been reported. Please brothers and sisters, make an effort to LIVE the truth we are here discussing. The Good response is not equal to the bad response.?
I do not know what he or they mean by bad language or what they use to gauge or measure what they perceive as bad language. Idolfree1 has used the following words when addressing Green Leaves
?Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1131.0?
Look at the selection of words that you used and also ?White Supremacy?. There were no attempts to report bad language here or anything of this nature. Perhaps this could be a pre-text or a camouflage that they are using or hiding behind as an attempt to remove this thread due to the fact that they cannot intellectually refute my rebuttal and prove their baseless ?3 Salaat Theory?? There are some people who will hold on ?BELIEF? without evidence and do what ever it takes to remove the presence the knowledge that possess a threat to their ?BELIEF? or ?BELIEF SYSTEM?. Many Progressive Muslims have complained how Sunni Muslims exercise censorship and removed their thread and even band them from their forum, thus could we possibly see a duplicate of this under guise of ?Progressive Muslims?? Time will tell.
Layth has made the following statement on June 18, 2006, 011528 AM and said that my rebuttal is flawed
?I have just gone through the link you provided...Your argument (or the author`s argument) for a 5 Salat time is clearly flawed based on using mistranslations by the original article you are refuting.?
It is cool that he made such statement and I am find with that but as long as we know it?s only a statement or an opinion and I say that because he has never brought forth any Qur?aanic evidence to prove otherwise and his flawed statement about the Metu Neter and associating that with hadiyth only strengthen my statement about him when I said he lacks knowledge of African History. I have called him to task in regards to his statement and he responded by saying the following on June 18, 2006, 053851 AM
?If you wish to discuss this issue in a mature and serious manner, then kindly provide the verses that show 5 times and I will adress them directly...If indeed the Scripture shows 5 times, then I will be the first to submit to the will of God without question or doubt.?
I do not know if everybody caught this or not, but notice at first Layth has made the claim that my arguments are flawed but yet he wants me to cut and past in this forum and address it point by point. For one Layth, you have made the claim that my rebuttal is flawed, so I do not know what you perceive as flawed so in actuality it is you that should copy and past what your perceive as flaw from my rebuttal. I am not you nor I?m I in your head, thus you know what appears to be flawed from your position so it is you who should cut and past and we will go from their or you can do something more thorough then that and create an independent web page and thoroughly dissect my arguments and then present the link in this post. But the truth of the matter is I think you are hiding and A. Muhammad has used the same escape goat of ducking and dodging. For everyone?s notion, I have sent A. Muhammad my link and announced to him that I refuted his false claim of the ?3 Salaat Theory? and he has e-mail me and said the following
?June 18, 2006
Salaam
I have visited the link you gave, I am interested in debating this issue with you in the light of the Quran.
However the article you posted is very very long.
If you wish to debate, please email me one or two points at a time, then I can send my reply, but to reply to an article of the lenght of yours is not practical and would take many days to write,
so I invite you to select any point we can start with and let us debate,
salaam,
Muhammad?And below was my response to him (A. Muhammad)
?June 18, 2006
Wa Laykum As Salaam A. Muhammd
You are shuffling when you suggest that I should copy and past portions of my rebuttal and e-mail it to you to for you to respond. This is a very limited approach. On the other hand, I have read your website and I didn?t e-mail you (asking you) to copy and past your points and email me so we can debate the issue together, instead I create a web page and thoroughly dissected and exposed your arguments. If you went out of your way to promote something on your website and in addition to spreading Islaam which is part of our Deen, then why would you shuffle and make this excuse
?but to reply to an article of the lenght of yours is not practical and would take many days to write?
You mean it?s not worth the time? You stand on the ?3 Salaat Theory? and you have made attacks on the 5 Salaat position and you do not have the time to rebuttal my arguments. Brother we can see a mile a way, that you are ducking and dodging the issue that you stand on and hiding behind the false notion that my rebuttal is to long for you to respond to. My rebuttal to the falsehood that you promote exist, thus you can create a web page to refute it or you can take the time to write a rebuttal on a word document and email to me or post it on the internet. The Qur?aan either teaches 5 or 3 Salaat and that is all you have to refute in my rebuttal that I wrote to your web page on the "3 Salaat Theory". I will not feed into your psychosis of copying and pasting points in my rebuttal to your false ?3 Salaat Theory?. The reality is A. Muhammad you cannot REFUTE our stands on the 5 Salaat.
http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm
As a man who stands on TRUTH, if some one came at me on this level of writing a rebuttal to my position, I will take the time out and respond, even if it would take some days. The little time and effort to uphold the TRUTH of Islaam, is not worth it to some or perhaps this is a common tactic to avoid dealing with the TRUTH because their foundation from which they stand on has been removed.
In closing I will dedicate this verse to you
Qur?aan 7450-?Running like Zebras?
Salaam?
I see that you and A. Muhammad have used similar tactics of ?escape goating? And Layth that is also my response to you.
Tanveermd was the only one that attempted to dig into the scripture even though he failed in his attempted. He really in actuality re-hashed or re-told in essence the same weak arguments that A. Muhammad attempted to use. I have read Tanveeermd arguments and I really think that it?s a total shame to see him distort things in the Qur?aan that was so so so obvious, he should be ashamed of himself and yes phoenix1, I will present my rebuttal to Tanveermd in this thread soon. Note it will not be today, but its coming soon.
I would like to thank Zainab for her support on TRUTH staying strong in dealing with these Muslims of the Progressive who believe in the baseless unfounded ?3 Salaat Theory? I want to thank no_shirk, nemowati and all others for staying strong on the bases of TRUTH. TRUTH cannot be compromised.
Salaam to all
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Peace Bro Khidr
You explained the following in reference to 1778
?This verse seems to denote the hours of the five daily Prayers of Islam. The three meanings of Duluk indicate the times of Afternoon Prayer, the Late Afternoon Prayer and the Sunset Prayer. The expression, Ghasaqil-Lail, includes the times of Sun-set Prayer but particularly refers to the Night Prayer? Malik Ghulam Farid is demonstrating that Qur?aan 1778 is referring to the Salaat times or periods of Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha.
This is hard for me to understand ... I'm sorry please be patient with me D
In the aya it says as-salat ... not as-salawat .. wouldn't that mean one Salat? But then that would mean to Salli from the time of decline of the sun to the night??? That would be one long prayer !Also, LE-delook ... ELA ghasaq al-layl That would mean "from the decline of the sun to the night"?
If you or anyone else can break the aya down for me ... I know you already did but I feel like something is missing - maybe it's just my understanding of it that's missing something .
God Bless
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Salaam Soul2Squeeze,
In the aya it says as-salat ... not as-salawat .. wouldn't that mean one Salat? But then that would mean to Salli from the time of decline of the sun to the night??? That would be one long prayer !
That is also my concern actually. It'd be great if someone might help from the grammar aspect of this ayat. So it will not mean one continuous salat as I currently understand (based on translations). Thanks.
=adley=
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Dear Khidr,
All three of them have problems with my self using the 5 Pillar Of Faith as a means to explain Islaam in a nutshell. They made their point very clear that it is wrong. So what I have done was call all three of them to task and I CHALLENGED all three of them to show me a verse in the Qur?aan that proves that it is a violation (of Qur?aan) to use the 5 Pillars of Faith to explain Islaam in a nutshell and all three of them failed to produce one single verse. I think this says a lot and this is the type of antics that has been going on with them in this thread.
Rather than making these
challangeswhy don`t you simply read the posts that have already been given which would have explained to you why the 5-pillar theory is an innovation.Here is a quote from my earlier post to you
Also, the article author does not seem to know the difference between a Muslim and a Mumin, and thus ends up speaking of Salat for the wrong audience group.
What this is telling you is that the
audiencefor certain higher elements of purification adressed in the Scripture are not theMuslims, but rather theMuminswho are a higher level of readiness (see 4914).This simple known fact by students of the Scripture destroys your entire Abu Huraira (or Nubein if you want to call them that) pillars of faith as being a fabrication created by people who are a) ignorant of the Scripture, or b) knowledgable yet attempt to deliberatly mislead others with false information.
Even the pilgrimage identified as one of the 5-pillars of
Islamis distorted to the wrong audience as it is called toall mankindand not to the Muslims or the Mumins in particular.Therefore, my advice is that you stop pedling innovations and claiming they are decreed by God by way of falsehood.
God gives us examples how people became Muslims by first uttering the words of
submission(I submit to God) and not by making claims of the shahada to God`s oness (which is a given fact). -
Dear Tanveer,
This verse 11114 therefore confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 1778. So far we have seen that all three verses 2458, 1778, and 11114 CONSISTENTLY mention the same timings for upholding salat. The only inescapable conclusion of this would be that Allah mentions only 2 timings to uphold salaat and mentions only 2 salaat by name in the Qur\'aan, therefore there are a minimum of only TWO salat to be upheld by believers SALAAT AL-FAJR (at dawn) and SALAAT AL-\'ISHA (at dusk).
Alternatively, the
waisandand thus the Zulufan becomes thenear part of the nightmaking three times.This would also fit with 1778 with
dulookbeing the rubbing of the sun (i.e. dusk) and theghasaqbeing the darkness of night, then the reminder of Quran at Dawn in 1779 (three again).I agree however with your comments regarding
wustathat it is possible to meanbalancedrather than middle (also the question ofmiddle of which Salatis a valid point). I would however point you to a third Salat identified by its features yet ignored in most discussionsSalat min yawm Al-Juma(the Salat at the time of the gathering). Before the advent of electricity, it would be expected that thepeaktimes when people were out and about shopping and taking care of their business was the morning period and the late afternoon-dusk period.People do not normally gather in the market before dawn nor do they gather at night.
Therefore, the Salat that is being called to while people are busy in the hustle and bustle of trade and shopping is the Salat that comes after the Salat at Dawn, and preceeds the Isha Salat of night.
Here is how I would state the translation
- And to David We granted Solomon. What an excellent and obedient servant.
- When, during the end of the day, well trained horses were displayed before him.
- He then said ?I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; now the sun has totally set!?
- ?Send them back.? He then rubbed their legs and necks.
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Salaam Layth,
Therefore, the Salat that is being called to while people are busy in the hustle and bustle of trade and shopping is the Salat that comes after the Salat at Dawn, and preceeds the Isha Salat of night.
But, isn't that means that the Salat at the day of gathering can happen either at noon or at sunset? Or anytime in between?
I sometimes thought that this Salat is to be performed during al-hajj.
=adley=
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The manipulative, concocted and twisted propaganda of the 3 salaat conspiracy was always in very poor shape, and now it's in shreds and tatters.
OMG! how do those bastards at FM sleep at night!????!!
)
me just make joke.Peace be upon you all,
Incorrect behavior has been reported. Please brothers and sisters, make an effort to LIVE the truth we are here discussing. The Good response is not equal to the bad response.
OMG! he's right!
offtopic as usual of course ..
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peace
There are those who agree on 2, those that agree on 3 and those that agree on 5. Our job should be information, not trying to convince others of these points of views. If you are trying to convince others of your point of view then you are not searching for the truth, you are searching for what you WANT to search for. And if you are doing that you are in a hole already.
Anyways, I feel couple of verses that are not mentioned concering salat. Yes I am aware that the word 'salat' is not mentioned in these
Free-minds
3831 When, during dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him.
3832 He said "I enjoyed the good of materialism more than I enjoyed remembering my Lord, until it became totally dark!"
Khalifa
One day he became preoccupied with beautiful horses, until the night fell.
He then said, "I enjoyed the material things more than I enjoyed worshiping my Lord, until the sun was gone.
Arabic pronunciation
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Ith AAurida AAalayhi bialAAashiyyi alssafinatu aljiyadu
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Faqala innee ahbabtu hubba alkhayri AAan thikri rabbee hatta tawarat bialhijabi
discuss
peace
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Salaam bro Imran,
There are those who agree on 2, those that agree on 3 and those that agree on 5. Our job should be information, not trying to convince others of these points of views. If you are trying to convince others of your point of view then you are not searching for the truth, you are searching for what you WANT to search for. And if you are doing that you are in a hole already.
Well said. ;D
Regarding 3831-32 I read that these ayats start from before or during sunset (not totally dark yet) until evening (totally dark). At least from the translations.
Can you provide the breakdown of these two ayats? Because I'm curious where the "totally dark" or "the sun was gone" came from. Thanks bro.
=adley=
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As salam alaykum.
Respectfully.Alen here.
So, i have a question nowAre we, the Qur'an Aloners, ALL praying the same - 3 or 5 times a day, or not? Because we need to be united when it comes to that because sooner or later, the sunnis and the shia and the wahabis would laugh at us.
So, 3 or 5 prayers a day?
As salamu alaykum.
