Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory

unknownuser

peace adley

Can you provide the breakdown of these two ayats? Because I'm curious where the "totally dark" or "the sun was gone" came from.

I was hoping somembody versed in arabic could be of help here.

I think it means that Solomon definitely missed a timed glorification of God before the sun was gone.

unknownuser

salamun alaykum alen

Respectfully that's not true at all. We don't all have to believe everything the exact same way

4238 And those who have responded to their Lord, and they maintain the bond, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give.

We are to conduct the fellow believers/submitters (mumins/muslims) but in no way are we all to be in agreeance on everything. That is more of a cult. That is wishful thinking since we all have different points of views. What to you maybe a great movie to me is a horrible movie. What to me is delicious to me could be disgusting to you etc...

Also, this forum would be considered 'mutual consultation'

Elke

Peace alen

Are we, the Qur'an Aloners, ALL praying the same - 3 or 5 times a day, or not? Because we need to be united when it comes to that because sooner or later, the sunnis and the shia and the wahabis would laugh at us.

some pray twice and some don't offer prayer at all in the way you might expect it... so it's not only 3 or 5

but i really wonder why you have this problem with the "islamic" sects eventually laughing at us

you should rather worry about god alone - isn't he your only judge ?

don't wish to offend you alen - just give you a friendly push

elke

unknownuser

peace

laughing/mocking is usally associated with rejecters in the Quran.

I am worried about getting the LAST laugh, God willing.

adley

Salaam Alen,

This story might be useful to you.

Those who were criminals used to laugh at those who had believed.
And when they passed by them they used to wink to each other.
And when they returned to their people, they would return jesting.
And if they see them they Say "These are indeed misguided!"
But they were not sent over them as caretakers.
And today, those who had believed are laughing at the rejecters!
Upon the luxurious furnishings they are observing.
Have the rejecters been paid for what they used to do?
(8329-36)

;D

=adley=

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Imran, Dr.Shabbir approached these verses differently and arabic speaking friends of mine agree that his approach is the best. I would like to see this interpretation also being discussed.

3830 And unto David We granted Solomon, how excellent a servant! Behold, in every situation He would turn to Divine Laws.

3831 In the evenings he used to examine his cavalry of nobly-bred, swift-footed horses. 3832 He would say, ?Verily, I love my fondness of all that is good because it reminds me of my Lord?, as the horses raced away until hidden by the veil of distance.

3833 "Bring them back unto me!" ? and would lovingly stroke their legs and their necks.

I also believe Salaat doesn't mean prayer only, in most verses it refers to following the Quran/implying the Quranic laws.

Layth

Peace,

Can you provide the breakdown of these two ayats? Because I'm curious where the "totally dark" or "the sun was gone" came from. Thanks bro.

The wording tawarat bilhijaab literally means it was hidden/covered. Therefore to answer your question I would say that until the sun was gone is more accurate than totally dark (since the sun can be out of sight, yet light still exists).

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Al Khidr,

Idolfree1 made the following statement in this thread

?Incorrect behavior has been reported. Please brothers and sisters, make an effort to LIVE the truth we are here discussing. The Good response is not equal to the bad response.?

I do not know what he or they mean by bad language or what they use to gauge or measure what they perceive as bad language.

How did you get "bad language" from "incorrect behavior"?

However, to be honest, I did not go back far enough to investigate. I recieved a complaint and posted a standard reminder to keep the behavior according to the God's instructions.

Idolfree1 has used the following words when addressing Green Leaves

?Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.

Yes, thats true because it is verifyable from artifacts that show they performed algebra and even calculated Pi. You can look at a book called "Not Out of Greece" by Ra Un Nefer Amen for more info. I am glad you posted this because it made me take notice of this conversation.

Please provide me the evidence that Ancient Africans of Khamit, or anywhere along the Nile Valley Civilizations, performed a 5 time a day salaat. I look foward to debating this with you.

Al_Khidr

Salaam idolfree1

Thanks for highlighting this book ""Not Out of Greece" by Ra Un Nefer Amen"

I have provided evidence from Cheikh Anta Diop's book that the original Nubians observed the 5 Pillars of faith and as you know he is definately no light weight. I do not know if your read my rebuttal but I listed the title of that book and the page numbers. Please go to my rebuttal for that reference

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

Scroll close to the end of the rebuttal and you will see it there. It should be highlighted in a peach or gold color. It has been very well documented by African scholars and more that the Nubians observed Salaat like the Muslims of today, observed Ramadaan, Hajj, etc. etc. The tenants of Islaam was definately present in ancient Africa. Another reference that you can follow up on is with another great scholar of ours who's name is Ashra Kwesi, below is his homepage

http//kemetnu.com

on his website he has his number and email, thus you can contact Brother Ashra Kwesi and talk to him and ask him which of his productions on (DVD/Video) that he has produced to prove that the Nubians was observing Salaat like the Muslim of today, Ramadaan, Hajj etc. etc. before Muhammad was born and he will be gladly to provide that to you and if you obtain it then you can analyze the evidence for yourself. This is common knowledge. I spoke with brother Ashra Kwesi on several occasion and my partners and I have organized speaking engagments and brought bring him out to speak on several occasions. You can also contact Runoko Rashidi who is another on of our brilliant scholars and he can also provide you with resources. His homepage is

http//www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html

I can provide you with tons of research by African scholars that you can follow up on but I think this right here is sufficient.

If you were not aware of this please follow up with the contacts and obtain their references, especially Ashra Kwesi and that book I highlighted from Cheikh Anta Diop.

Salaam

Qur'aan 1736
You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyessight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Al-Khidr, i haven't read his book, so i will try to get a copy. As for the picture on your website. This prostration is done everywhere on earth by almost all people, so there is no surprise there. But is this picture from Aknenathon's people, or from the Nubians after or before him? But i saw one mistake in your article, i will highlight it for you. You said this

These FACTS have been well known and established by African scholars. Notice that Cheikh Anta Diop stated that the Egyptians prayed 7 times a day but the extra 2 were optional,

And you claim this

so the Nubians (Egyptians) originally prayed 5 times a day, just like Muslims and that is because they were Muslims.

But the author says that the Prophet of the Muslims reduced it to 5, and made 2 optional. The author didn't say it was with the Nubians. The Nubians prayed 7 times, and the author doesn't mention 2 of those were optional. He only says this about the Muslims. This is what the author writes

but which have been reduced by the Prophet to five compulsory prayers ?to relive humanity?; the other two prayers are optional.

Nowhere does the author say the 2 were optional with the Nubians, he only said this was with the Prophet(Muhammed) and his followers.

They prayed seven times each day, with their faces turned toward the north. These prayers to the sun at different hours somewhat resemble Moslem prayers which take place during the same phases, but which have been reduced by the Prophet to five compulsory prayers ?to relive humanity?; the other two prayers are optional.

The Nubians prayed 7 times a day, and with Muhammed it was reduced to 5 the authors says.

I agree that the concept of One God was known to those people, but this author says

They addressed a direct invocation to the seven planets.

They invoked planets, not God.

These prayers to the sun at different hours somewhat resemble Moslem prayers which take place during the same phases

The author says they invoked planets and prayed to the sun. So he didn't see the tawheed connected with these generations that performed these rituals.

I believe also Aknethon was a prophet or messenger from God, but he was esteemed as a heretic by his people. The tawheed-creed of Aknethon was lost generations after him. I have scriptures from ancient Egypt that talk about God, and also their book of the Dead tells about God. So the people were not all believers of God alone. This was a minority among the Nubians as far as i have seen. Like every nation, people loose the tawheed and only a minority will really believe.

The author mentiones the Kaaba and Mecca and zenzen. I will not judge that, as i haven't read his book so i don't know the evidence the author has to support this claim. But till now, there hasn't been found any evidence of Mecca from before 800AD. Also there were hundreds of buildings like the kaaba. As the Arabs worshipped their altars and temples. And their gods were represented by these buildings or altar-blocks. So i'm a bit carefull. Also fasting is a normal practice which can be found anywhere on earth.

Peace

phoenix1

Arnoldyasin you racist!!!!!!! how can you post that blasphemy on a public forum!!!!!!! it belongs in the trash!!!!!!!!!!!!! brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
go to hell you 3 salat theory lovers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your theory is waiting for you there, because we have completely DESTROYED it. I am declaring a holy war on you and your Western country. Islam will dominate the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! long live the Nubians!!!!!!!!elektro elektro voodoo voodoo voodoo

just kidding Arnold my friend.
I don't know why, but every time I open this thread, i feel like posting crap like this. feel free to delete this post.

PEACE!

unknownuser

Peace

lol phoenix you're such a goofball ;D

I didn't find anyone address my question yet so I thought I'd ask it one more time.. if anyone has an idea please just chime in I'd really appreciate it

In 1778 I notice the term is Salat meaning one and not 3 (salawat). Would that mean one long salat? Or am I missing something altogether??

Peace all

phoenix1

peace soul,

thank you for the compliment.
I have no idea what the answer to your question is though.
I think both terms are used- salat and salawaat. i don't know

Al_Khidr

Salaam Arnold

Thanks for presenting your insight. One thing we can establish is that 5 Salaat or 7 salaat is enough to say that the 3 Salaat was not observed. So either way we look at it there is no evidence for the "3 Salaat Theory". The poor 3 Salaat Theorist do not have hope (smile). In the Qur'aan at one time Allah spoke about past generations when it was a law from Him not to has sex during Ramadaan but there is a verse in the Qur'aan that says He knew they use to cheat around and He has made it lawful for them now to have sex during Ramadaan (of course after the setting of the sun). We can see example of this in the Qur'aan. But again either 5 or 7 Salaat is far more then 3, I think we can all agree to that.

Now you have said this

"The author says they invoked planets and prayed to the sun. So he didn't see the tawheed connected with these generations that performed these rituals."

I have an excellent over view of his work and beleive me he would never say that they worshipped the sun that they called Ra. In his works and lectures he has addressed the fact that the Nubians did not worship the sun, planets etc. I believe the meaning has been lost in that particular sentence and it was not expressed clearly because again he has made it known that they did not. Also to my research on Ancient Nubia clearly indicates that they did not worship stars, planets, statues etc. and that is why I provided several resources to you and one of them is Ashra Kwesi because until one actually see the evidence it will be hard to comprehend or even accept. But the fact that the Nubians were not idol worshippers is backed up by scholar after schalor after scholar. I did not reproduce tons of sources for that because that was not the premise of my argument, it was only a pieice of the puzzle to help complete the premise.

Allah in the Holy Qur'aan also mentioned that there has been generations that has lost Salaat.

You have said this

"I believe also Aknethon was a prophet or messenger from God, but he was esteemed as a heretic by his people. The tawheed-creed of Aknethon was lost generations after him. I have scriptures from ancient Egypt that talk about God, and also their book of the Dead tells about God. So the people were not all believers of God alone. This was a minority among the Nubians as far as i have seen. Like every nation, people loose the tawheed and only a minority will really believe."

in my rebuttal if we go back to that I have mentioned "the Nubian (Egyptian) Empire somewhat started to fall of the straight path and Ankh Aton by the leave of Allah, was successful in destroying the idols that started to emerge. He was successful in restoring his kingdom, his dynasty back to the worship of Allah Alone, that was once taught by our Fathers and Mothers since the beginning of time in Nubia. Ankh Aton (Aknenaton) taught Tawhiyd; he taught a doctrine of Peace (Al Islaam)."

So if he destroyed idols that means there has been a period where they have fell off, this happens from time to time and that is why Allah sends His Prophets/Messengers/Warners. but its a mistake to say that Tawhiyd was not practiced before and after Aknenaton. We now have, I shouldn't say now because we been had this evidence which has been kept hidden by the dominant group who rules and wrote "His-story"

Also to we have evidence in ancient Nubia before Aknenaton that Tawhiyd was practiced and we have evidence after akenaton that Tawhiyd was practiced. That is why i have provided you with tons of resources so that you can check it out and anlalyze it yourself. And what makes those resources unique is that they are independed of the institutions that the dominant group controls and this dominant group also have control of the universities that we attend and that is why I am not always impresed with people who obtained PHD degress or Master degrees in the universities because most of them are only clones of the internationalist who controls the universities. We have to keep in mind that the Nubian Empire lasted over 10, 000 years and that is quite a long time and no they are not sitting over associating things with Allah and commiting idol worship as a whole. But that does not mean that there has been times in Nubia where that occured. One of the biggest mistake, I'm not saying your mistake I am talking about those responsible for recording our History is that they have left a blanket statement over our minds that the Nubians were idol worshippers thoroughout from begining to end and they and I am speaking of the european historians and scholars that they also left that same blanket statement over ancient India, Asia, the Ancient Native Indians etc. etc. and my attempt was to dispell that blanket myth becuse it was not true. Sometimes relgion blinds peopel because they will look at Pharaoh in the Qur'aan and Bible and with that one isolated account they many people look upon them as a whole as idol worshippers.

Arnold just take time out (if you have the interest) and check out some of my references, especialy Ashra kwesi who has done a fantastic job of eliminating the BIG LIE that the Nubians were idol worshippers and were not advance and not the builders of the pyramids and more.

Al_Khidr

Salaam

I have to give it to you phoenix1 that was funny.

phoenix1

peace Al Khidr,

thank you.

but here's my question,

are you saying that the actual method of salat survived all these millenia without ever being changed?
or just that the first civilization prayed 5 times a day so we should to?
I think they may have PRAYED 5 times, but Salat is not prayer. salat is different from prayer. i think knowing what salat is will help us understand what times are given. Arguing about the times is useless unless we actually know what we are supposed to do at those times.

Al_Khidr

Salaam phoenix1

If you have some time brother check out this link, I think it will help answer a lot of your questions

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/findsalaatinquraan.htm

I think you have raised some good points here. I just got back on the computer so that I can try to finish up my response to Tanveer upon your request. Also to maybe some of your question possibly could be answered when its done and also Soul2Squeeze there will be apart in there I think may answer your questions, hopefully (smile).

also to brother I believe that Allah also kept Salaat intact and that it was well established from generation to generation but that does not remove the fact or reality that people has tampered with salaat. Remember people over abuse free-will and create faslesood but that does not necessarily mean that Salaat has not kept pure. And all praise is do to Allah for revealing the Qur'aan becuase many of the ancient scriptures has been tampered with over time and many books have been created and falsely passed on as the word of Allah to deceive so the Holy Qur'aan came to correct all that mess and present the overall clear picture and we can use the Qur'aan today to help purify our Salaat and remove the man-made-innovations of Salaat and more. And one of the innovations that I am trying to remove using Qur'aan ALONE is the "3 Salaat Theory".

Salaam

peace Al Khidr,

thank you.

but here's my question,

are you saying that the actual method of salat survived all these millenia without ever being changed?
or just that the first civilization prayed 5 times a day so we should to?
I think they may have PRAYED 5 times, but Salat is not prayer. salat is different from prayer. i think knowing what salat is will help us understand what times are given. Arguing about the times is useless unless we actually know what we are supposed to do at those times.

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Yes, like i said, i have scriptures from ancient Nubians that talk about God. And like the Quran clearly says, that messengers keep being send to restore what was distorted. So i agree with the concept of tawheed being present and that Aknathon came to restore. I have a lot of books about him, and it irritates me also, that they don't want to acknowledge he was worshipping the real God, they always represent it as he just picked one god out of the pantheon of egyptian gods, and made that one god the only one. It is time the real muslims are writing and examining these people from history.

The idea that they performed 7 and that as proof that 3 never could be the real ammount, also counts for the 5. 5 is also less then 7. Ibn Ishaaq says in his biography of Muhammed that in the first 15 years they only had 3 times for prayer, and that only later it was changed into 5. In reality, from historical point of view, there is no proof it was 5 in Muhammed's time as several sources show they performed 3, and then suddenly it was changed into 5. So you can use the Nubians as proof for showing that they prayed, pilgrimage, fasting and tawheed. But to say the 7 is proof for 5 is baseless as there is no historical proof for 5 in the Muslim literature. The 7 is as much proof for the 3 as for the 5. It is proof for the ritual, but not for the timing.

So only the arabic of the Quran can be proof. So this has to be the main focus. My arabic is not good enough to really participate in that discussion. So i hope you and some others from this forum, discuss the verses one by one in a professional and scientific fashion. I believe the whole method is inside the Quran and maybe is known through tradition, i still believe it was meant to get it from the Quran as the tradtion was distorted not only about tawheed but also on a lot of details in mechanics. So i don't believe you on that point, but the discussion if the Quran says 3 or 5 is vital to me.

And i'm already checking the links. Very interresting. I knew already that they ignored large parts of history. The Tolteks with the African statue heads and so on. The Pyramid buildings in souther America.

I can really reccomend you books from Graham Hancock who is trying to show that archeology is hiding the true history of mankind and that civilation is not something just 10.000 years old, but as old as humanity itself. We excist for at least 200.000 years already. It is scientifically un-acceptable we lived in a stone-age for 190.000years and suddenly in the last 10.000 years invent everything.

Here are some links

http//www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/

http//www.forbiddenarcheology.com/

http//www.grahamhancock.com/

http//www.unitedearth.com.au/forbidden.html

As for the tawheed, here is an article i wrote about it, i'm busy now with some improvements

http//www.galaxydastak.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=314123119136392

Peace

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Oh yeah, you say that the 5 pillars were also known with the Nubians. Yes, they had pilgrimage, prayer, fasting, tawheed. If they had zakaat i couldn't get from your article. But the thing is that it is you who present them as the Nubians saw them as the pillars of their faith. But you have to understand that the author tells about behaviour that sticks out. Fasting, pilgrimage, prayer are all visible externaly to be seen rituals. That these are to be seen in their artwork is not surprising as you cannot make a picture of righteousness or believe in the Unseen. That is why it occured to me that a non-visible part was not mentioned, the zakaat.

You cannot proof these external seen rituals were their pillars. You don't know what their pillars were. I know also that the Day of Judgement is found in a lot of inscriptions. So why didn't you mention this one? Most hieroglyphs can be seen on tombs that show the king's deeds being measured on a scale on the Day of Judgement.

You said; look they knew the 5 pillars too. But is this really the case? Were these their pillars? Or were these the external visible parts of their Deen, which in sunni islam are pointed out as the most important ones. Because you don't have much insight on the rest of their Deen. You just have some to be visible traced references to some rituals, but we lack the information if there was more. If a society 2000 years from now would write about us. They don't have the Quran anymore, and only have writings about our behaviour and they have some pictures. What would they see? They would see external visible parts of the Deen. The would see prayer, pilgrimage, records that we fasted for timeperiods. Little bits here and there, and some visual snapshots. Would they have the means to trace the real message of the Quran from these bits? Would they also say; the most importants things for them were these rituals. They can only base on what they have, and how they approach the information they have.

It is impossible for them to get an idea of the message from the Quran. They can only see the external visible parts of the Deen which are only smart part of the whole. This is the same with the Nubians. We only have snapshots. Because we are so used to the 5 pillars and they look so innocent, when you read those external visible rituals, you were like, hey these are the pillars. But is it safe to claim this? Isn't that trying to force a present concept of what is the basis of Islam on some historical snapshots?

As i showed in a previous post, God names more then 20 things repeately throughout the Quran which are the basics of the Quranic message. But only a few of them are externally visible. The main message of the Quran is righteousness and to strive for human equality. This i see also with the Nubian civilation which are good organised and highly suffiecent in their knowledge and how to imply them in their society. This external visible part is ignored.
That is why i don't believe in the pillars, as they are only focused on some parts of the Deen, and neglect the most important aim in the Quran which is strive for righteousness on earth through betterment of society. The visible rituals are only small parts of accomplishing that. So we cannot know for certain, these were the most important parts of the Nubian Deen, as we cannot verify their scripture. But when we look at the Quran which was probably very similair in message, then i would say, the same implies to them, that the visible rituals are only a small part of the Deen. And to strive for a righteous society was their aim.

Peace

adley

Salaam Layth,

Thanks for answering the question, and it does make sense to me.

What about the one before that? The question about the day of gathering? I think your idea was something like this the Salat at the time of gathering must happen after dawn and before dusk. So my enquiry was that doesn't it mean this Salat can happen at noon? (In other words, in support of 5-time Salat) Thanks.

=adley=