THEOLOGICAL FATALISM - ALLAH'S WILL and OTHER CHARACTERISTICS
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Hello all,
Firstly, no one knows who or what a cosmological all-encompassing God is. BUT, and IF God has a WILL (as per Quran), then we do know that this God is a "BEING" (or some sort of spirit having a soul/mind in order to have a WILL) and not an "IT" (matter or energy; because matter or energy do not possess a WILL). The information provided in the following links are worth an excellent study and understanding of all about God and Nature/Reality; A MUST READ.
God's Will and Free-Will
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_fatalismGod's Omnipotence
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmnipotentOmnipotence Paradox
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_ParadoxGod's Omniscience
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmniscienceGod's Omnipresence
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OmnipresentProblem of Evil
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evilThe Theory of Everything (physics)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everythingThe Theory of Everything (philosophical)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything_%28philosophy%29Existence of God
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_GodReality
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realityand finally, Nature
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature -
dude
do you read anything besides wikipedia? -
dude
do you read anything besides wikipedia?I know...
What seems to be the problem with wikipedia encylopedia? Don't you have the courage to refute or challenge its authencity of the information provided in those links above OR must I conclude the disgruntled adolescent minds who cannot get pass the "delusional godly injunctions" of some miraculous historical novelties collected and revamped in a book form. jedi voodoo
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In the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism, reality is ultimately seen as being a single, qualityless, changeless being called nirguna Brahman. However, nirguna Brahman is understood to be beyond "ordinary" human comprehension. What we ordinarily perceive, that is a world of many things, is brought on by consequences of our actions, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to conceive of nirguna Brahman. Thus, Advaitin philosophy introduces the concept of saguna Brahman or Ishvara as a way of talking about Brahman to people. Ishvara, in turn, is ascribed such qualities as omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence.
(from wikipedia.)Danish, although I don't mind wikipedia. It's best to look at BOTH views to gain a better understanding. You have to talk to the people who believe in the God you are trying to refute to understand why is it that they believe in such a God.
Actually, you should be asking what people (at least on this forum) think "god" is, before you try to refute their argument. Since the word "god" can have several different meanings.
Another thing wrong with wikipedia is that it gives you the mainstream view of something. Which isn't necessarily the true one. It's best to learn about a book by reading the book, instead of reading books about the book you're trying to learn about. -
In the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism, reality is ultimately seen as being a single, qualityless, changeless being called nirguna Brahman. However, nirguna Brahman is understood to be beyond "ordinary" human comprehension. What we ordinarily perceive, that is a world of many things, is brought on by consequences of our actions, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to conceive of nirguna Brahman. Thus, Advaitin philosophy introduces the concept of saguna Brahman or Ishvara as a way of talking about Brahman to people. Ishvara, in turn, is ascribed such qualities as omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence.
(from wikipedia.)Every reiigion has its own god. Unlike other religions, Hindus especially has several and not all believe in this Ishvara. All claim to characterize their god's by thumping attributes and all have their own authentic scriptures. But the point is not who believes in what, the core concern is regarding the ONENESS of GOD, its attributes and the claim of a "divine" book for all times.
Danish, although I don't mind wikipedia. It's best to look at BOTH views to gain a better understanding.
The links provided earlier discusses BOTH views as well as from other angles. It took me at least a week to read, study and understand those links along with sub-links within, spending few hours each day. Clearly, then, you have not read them in its entirety nor understood and here you are giving your undesirable opinions. If you are concerned, then at least read and understand those links and then come discuss them.
You have to talk to the people who believe in the God you are trying to refute to understand why is it that they believe in such a God.
Who do you think I am talking to on this forum?
Actually, you should be asking what people (at least on this forum) think "god" is, before you try to refute their argument.
Phoenix1, you keep repeating this, not knowing that I've already asked the same several times, but no one has come up with any answers. All they believe in blindly is that the Quran is Allah's words because it says so and that Allah said this and Allah said that, a useless circular reasoning. Other sectarian Muslims also authenticate ahadiths to become part of Quran, without which Quran is inconclusive. Why don't you do me a favour and elaborate on WHO or WHAT God actually is, what do you know about HIM and where did HIS attributes come from?
Since the word "god" can have several different meanings.
We are discussing two "supreme" gods, one that is physically man-made and the other a cosmological one (if there is one) as per the given analysis.
Another thing wrong with wikipedia is that it gives you the mainstream view of something.
Anything can be a mainstream view, such as the principle stance on Quran being Allah's words by all Muslims, which is not the case, hence the discussion. What mainstream views have you found in those links that you disagree with? Give one example and explain why?
Which isn't necessarily the true one. It's best to learn about a book by reading the book, instead of reading books about the book you're trying to learn about.
I'm sorry, but I don't buy this silly scenario of reading one book and know it all kinda thing. That never happens by the way and is impossible. I believe you need more time and research understanding life, nature and reality, as you mature with experience.
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Peace Danish,
I have read a couple of the ones you listed, and I understand that they do give both views.
Let's discuss those articles, then.
But, I am not sure myself about God. We'll see.Hello 'phoenix1',
I',m glad you realized. What would you like to discuss, other than what has already been penned? I shall only try to accommodate the concerns to the best of my interpretations, analysis and research from all angles, if I can and have the knowledge to do so, that's all, else I shall take the time and courage to find out or simply bow out and salute.
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peace
I think the articles you posted here, and on other threads have pretty much dismantled the idea of an external supreme being. But I don't believe in one. I don't completely get what "allah" is in the quran, but I do not think it is an external God. I think the attributes that people give to "god" are just their way of explaning something that cannot be explained in words very well.
I don't think we have to worship anything. But we do have to serve that which is greater than us-the whole.
Do we have a creator, some being or force of somekind that brought us into existence and created the laws by which our world works? I don't know the answer to that yet.And I do applaud your effort in showing us a different view point. It's never good if there is no diversity, or conflict (in a good way).
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Peace be upon you Danish,
Firstly, no one knows who or what a cosmological all-encompassing God is. BUT, and IF God has a WILL (as per Quran), then we do know that this God is a "BEING" (or some sort of spirit having a soul/mind in order to have a WILL) and not an "IT" (matter or energy; because matter or energy do not possess a WILL).
You should get a copy of Metu Neter Vol 1. It will help you to categorize all these statements and be able to see this concept more clearly. You said matter/energy does not posses a will, but humans BEINGS have consciousness, will, energy, and matter.
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Peace Idolfree1
I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile, and hopefully Danish won't mind if I ask on this thread. Is the Metu Neter a philosophy which holds the premise of One Supreme Being or many? From my limited knowledge on Ancient Egyptian religions, I think they believed in many. And how does this contradict with your understanding of one Supreme Being as dictated in Islam?
Peace Danish
I was just throwing a goofy joke to lighten up the mood of this very serious subject you raised. To be completely candid, I don't hold much weight to wikipedia, as it's just a compilation of what most websites pruport about a given subject. It certainly doesn't make the information wrong per se. So for the sake of the discussion I'll give it a go. It's definitely worth discussing. I'll post my thoughts once I've perused the pages you provided.
Peace Phoenix1
Have you read about Sufism? They also have this concept of humans being particles of the One that eminated from the One's Energy and that we will return to the Ultimate once again. Pretty interesting stuff if you're interested.
Cheers
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Hello Kyle,
You should get a copy of Metu Neter Vol 1. It will help you to categorize all these statements and be able to see this concept more clearly.
Metu Neter literally means "the word of God" and Maat means "divine laws" and so are the fascinating claims directed towards Quran and other scriptures. The philosophical and spiritual aspects of what a Supreme Being is all about, is founded in all religions detailed in various unequivocal ways, pre-existing historically and emanating and grounded from representations of man-made god, gods and goddesses (physical structural idols of all sorts) via imaginations. This is no secret nor factual and neither does it make Kemitic supreme over others. Living a meaningful and purposeful way of life is exercised, analyzed, understood and reasoned by faculties of senses and our virtues within the realm of what is dictated by Nature/Reality as Man advanced.
The Egyptology, Ra Un Nefer, Metu Neter, Maat, Ausar, Tree of Life, The Five Principles and other excerpts can be found and read by googling or via encylopedias, in order to get some real insights of what this Kemetic religion is all about.
You said matter/energy does not posses a will, but humans BEINGS have consciousness, will, energy, and matter.
Human beings do, matter/energy itself doesn't. Besides, I am discussing God, not human.
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Hello 'BOOST',
I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile, and hopefully Danish won't mind if I ask on this thread.
My posts are not limited to any specific individual. This a discussion forum and surely everyone has the right to partake, as long as it remains ethical and in-line with subject matter.
I was just throwing a goofy joke to lighten up the mood of this very serious subject you raised. To be completely candid, I don't hold much weight to wikipedia, as it's just a compilation of what most websites pruport about a given subject. It certainly doesn't make the information wrong per se. So for the sake of the discussion I'll give it a go. It's definitely worth discussing. I'll post my thoughts once I've perused the pages you provided.
Good deal. Although I myself don't hold Wikipedia as absolute and can certainly provide other sources, I do believe enclycolpedias such as Wikipedia, Britanica and Encarta, is a collection of relevant information and diversity of subject matters, detailing and portraying variant views and scientific challenges compiled from several sources to better understand a given area or subject of interest. The links provided earlier are a good read, no doubt and Wikipedia seems to carry better impact and well known amongst others, I reckon.
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Peace be upon you Boost,
I've been meaning to ask you this for awhile, and hopefully Danish won't mind if I ask on this thread. Is the Metu Neter a philosophy which holds the premise of One Supreme Being or many?
One Supreme Being, that manifests through the many created beings.
From my limited knowledge on Ancient Egyptian religions, I think they believed in many.
Yes, I know, its not by mistake that you think that because anything non Jewish/Christian/Muslim is taught to be polytheistic and devil worship and other such nonsense. In Kemetic writings one reads "Nebetcher" which means "Lord of All". To help clarify, its like in this teaching where there is the God expresses as Its many attributes (i.e. Most High, All Knowing, The Nourisher, The Forgiver, etc).
And how does this contradict with your understanding of one Supreme Being as dictated in Islam?
Does not contradict at all. This is a confirmation of what came before it.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
Metu Neter literally means "the word of God" and Maat means "divine laws"
Yes, Metu Neter means "word of God", however Maat does not mean Divine Law, although Divine Law falls under its catergory. Maat comes from "maa" which means "to see". Maat deals with sysnthesis, it is tied in to the higher part of the right hemisphere of the brain. I will not go further on this thread.
and so are the fascinating claims directed towards Quran and other scriptures. The philosophical and spiritual aspects of what a Supreme Being is all about, is founded in all religions detailed in various unequivocal ways, pre-existing historically and emanating and grounded from representations of man-made god, gods and goddesses (physical structural idols of all sorts) via imaginations.
I didnt understand what you said.
This is no secret nor factual and neither does it make Kemitic supreme over others.
Of course not, truth is truth, no matter what name is put upon the teachings.
Living a meaningful and purposeful way of life is exercised, analyzed, understood and reasoned by faculties of senses and our virtues within the realm of what is dictated by Nature/Reality as Man advanced.
The Egyptology, Ra Un Nefer, Metu Neter, Maat, Ausar, Tree of Life, The Five Principles and other excerpts can be found and read by googling or via encylopedias, in order to get some real insights of what this Kemetic religion is all about.
Very carefully, most sights dont explain these teachings properly, just as most sights on Islam dont teach that properly. I recommend only Ra Un Nefer Amens teachings because those I have studied.
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You said matter/energy does not posses a will, but humans BEINGS have consciousness, will, energy, and matter.
Human beings do, matter/energy itself doesn't.Correct, it is the WILL that is suppossed to direct the energy/matter, unfortunately most people are asleep and thier energies rule their lives.
Besides, I am discussing God, not human.
Now we are getting to the nitty gritty! Thats like saying you are discussing the sea, not a cup of sea water. One cant know the God until one knows oneself. Thats why we have the famous teaching "Know Thyself".
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Have you read about Sufism? They also have this concept of humans being particles of the One that eminated from the One's Energy and that we will return to the Ultimate once again. Pretty interesting stuff if you're interested.
Peace,
I've heard about sufism. It's been thrown at me by a few people before. But I don't really know what that means. I've been meaning to look it up. But (again) the last thing I want to do is join another sect!I am really interested in this Kemetic stuff. When Kyle talks, I listen. I think I'll have to order metu neter online (along with my copy of Shaum's outline for AP physics).
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Metu Neter literally means "the word of God" and Maat means "divine laws"
Yes, Metu Neter means "word of God", however Maat does not mean Divine Law, although Divine Law falls under its catergory. Maat comes from "maa" which means "to see". Maat deals with sysnthesis, it is tied in to the higher part of the right hemisphere of the brain. I will not go further on this thread.
More precisely, "ma" comes from mama, MOTHER. Maat is a female goddess (MOTHER), hence the divine laws attributed to her. There are many "gods" in Kemetic (Egyptian) religion and therefore the making of the phases of attributes. The Kemetic is a reconstruction and tranformation of Egytology in its "new age" founded in New York by black brotherhood.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%C3%A0thttp//touregypt.net/godsofegypt/maat2.htm
http//www.afrostyly.com/uk-us/afro/diverse/maat.htm
http//www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/maat/
and so are the fascinating claims directed towards Quran and other scriptures. The philosophical and spiritual aspects of what a Supreme Being is all about, is founded in all religions detailed in various unequivocal ways, pre-existing historically and emanating and grounded from representations of man-made god, gods and goddesses (physical structural idols of all sorts) via imaginations.
I didnt understand what you said.
The spiritual aspects connoted towards humans is stemmed from venerating these idols to bring about a lifestyle, often delusional and magical, a system similar to other religions, thought and imagined to be the "real" God of the heavens and the earth. In other words, it simply means that veneration of a Supreme Being is bought about by worshipping stone idols of all sorts and the rituals and ceremonies bought about by each cult that go along with it. Ofcourse, people hesitate to accept this notion and get all worked up when it come to their Supreme God, their scriptures and their rituals, running amock to defend their case, but the facts remain. Maat is the name given to a female goddess, just like Allah is the name given to a male god. Lives of mankind throughout history and much of it even today, has always relied upon venerating, imploring and exalting all kinds of gods, from animals, birds and fish to human beings, celestial bodies and stone structures, and with them came the ritualistic ceremonies and religious novelties. The following link is just one of the many that talk about these gods http//touregypt.net/godsofegypt/index.htm (click on the alphabetical names of gods to read more about them).
This is no secret nor factual and neither does it make Kemitic supreme over others.
Of course not, truth is truth, no matter what name is put upon the teachings.
Truth cannot be truth with various differentiating religious beliefs that are, in most part, unrealistic or even meaningless. Thus Kemetic cannot claim superiority over Islam just because it proclaims to be the best source of spiritual knowledge and that it is a divine law or God's words (just like Islam professes), and Islam over Dai Lama, and Dai Lama over Baghavat Gita, simply because each have their own god or gods to worship along with their attributes and rituals. The conflict and wars over gods and goddesses arose eons ago.
Living a meaningful and purposeful way of life is exercised, analyzed, understood and reasoned by faculties of senses and our virtues within the realm of what is dictated by Nature/Reality as Man advanced.
The Egyptology, Ra Un Nefer, Metu Neter, Maat, Ausar, Tree of Life, The Five Principles and other excerpts can be found and read by googling or via encylopedias, in order to get some real insights of what this Kemetic religion is all about.
Very carefully, most sights dont explain these teachings properly, just as most sights on Islam dont teach that properly. I recommend only Ra Un Nefer Amens teachings because those I have studied.
I'm sorry, but that is not entirely true. There's world of information on the Internet referencing Ra Un Nefer Amen and the likes of him, in order to get the most of it all.
http//www.rootsandrooted.org/ausar_auset.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra_Un_Nefer_Amen
Besides, I am discussing God, not human.
Now we are getting to the nitty gritty! Thats like saying you are discussing the sea, not a cup of sea water. One cant know the God until one knows oneself. Thats why we have the famous teaching "Know Thyself".
I disagree, for you've miscontrued the idea or notion of a GOD in comparison to human, a creature or even a life-form. Your "Know Thyself" will not work in this case.
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Peace Danish,
you insist in gathering information from the net about something instead of reading and checking the thing itself. Saying that Kemetic is this and that from what some people say it is will never give you the true vision.
Perhaps you could forget the names kemetic, religion, etc and go directly to Metu Meter and the Maat 11 laws of God books and reading them and after that you could say something with basis, if not, it is like affirming things about something you don't know, imagine ia person saying Rigoletto the opera is great or awful and never listened to it.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
More precisely, "ma" comes from mama, MOTHER.
I said "Maa" not "ma". "Maa" means "to see"
Maat is a female goddess (MOTHER),
Yes, Maat is a female energy, but the "mother" is Auset, the one who gave virgin birth to Heru(the will). Sound familiar?
hence the divine laws attributed to her.
The energies are "spheres of influence". Divine Law falls under this sphere. Because one must SEE/experience truth, not just believe in it(sebek sphere, thats why he is considered the trickster)
There are many "gods" in Kemetic (Egyptian) religion and therefore the making of the phases of attributes.
I did not understand that statement.
The Kemetic is a reconstruction and tranformation of Egytology in its "new age" founded in New York by black brotherhood.
Reconstruction and transformation??? ;D Sorry you feel that way and refuse to dig deeper. You refernce sights that dont even use the correct names! They are saying "Toth " instead of "Tehuti", "Horus" instead of "Heru", "Hathor" instead of "Het Heru", how can they claim to understand? )
I hope you will have the courage to look deeper, but I dont beg people to get this beautiful knowledge, so I will stop here.
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Hello Kyle,
I said "Maa" not "ma". "Maa" means "to see"
Can you provide a reference where "maa" means 'to see'?
Maat is a female goddess (MOTHER),
Yes, Maat is a female energy, but the "mother" is Auset, the one who gave virgin birth to Heru(the will). Sound familiar?
Maat does not mean female energy. Maat and Auset are both female stone goddesses in Kemetic (Egyptian) religion along with several other god, gods and goddesses. Auset is also known as Isis. Other Kemetic goddesses can be found here and in previous links along with their brief descriptions and attributes
http//www.thaliatook.com/isis.html
http//touregypt.net/godsofegypt/maat2.htm
http//www.homestead.com/wysinger/isis.html
http//www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/isis-seat.htmlhence the divine laws attributed to her.
Because one must SEE/experience truth, not just believe in it(sebek sphere, thats why he is considered the trickster)I SEE/experience truth and as well as falsehood every day NATURALLY, without the need of human mockery.
The Kemetic is a reconstruction and transformation of Egyptology in its "new age" founded in New York by black brotherhood.
Reconstruction and transformation??? ;D
There is no doubt that Kemetic is a revitalization of Egyptology founded by Ra Un Nefer Amen. Truth and facts do hurt and I don't blame you, it is Human Factor...Naturally.
Sorry you feel that way and refuse to dig deeper. You refernce sights that dont even use the correct names! They are saying "Toth " instead of "Tehuti", "Horus" instead of "Heru", "Hathor" instead of "Het Heru", how can they claim to understand? )
The reference sites are not mine but for the peoples to read and understand what Kemetic religion is all about. So far, I've provided just a few and there are abundance of information on the Internet. You still won't be satisfied it seems and I can understand that. By your statement above, I can see that you have no proper knowledge of your own Kemetic understandings. Please study the words Thoth/Tehuti, Horus/Heru, Hathor/Het Heru, and a gazillion more or perhaps research on language etymology and historical linguistics of your interest before twisting words. Here's the links for your concerns
Hathor (aka Het Heru)
http//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Het-Heru&redirect=noThoth (aka Tehuti)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThothHorus (aka Heru)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HorusHere is some more info on African/Egyptian historicity
http//theafrican.com/Magazine/MagAncWis.htmI've provided enough links but in case you need more refining, then please let me know.
I hope you will have the courage to look deeper, but I dont beg people to get this beautiful knowledge, so I will stop here.
I have read enough of this Kemetic religion and have understood life and nature deeper than perhaps you have, as understood from your posts. A religion that has anything to do with god, gods and goddesses of any kind, is nothing more than extra-ordinary imaginations layered in utmost sophistication (divinely propagations and rituals) leading to deception. It's PURE BULL s***, as George Carlin best stamps it.
Edit If you'd like to further discuss your Kemetic religion in detail, then lets open up a new thread in the General section, as we are straying off the subject matter of Allah's Will and His characteristics and attributes.