THEOLOGICAL FATALISM - ALLAH'S WILL and OTHER CHARACTERISTICS
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Peace Phoenix1
Sorry i didn't see anything relating to jinn in your analogy but cool
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Peace be upon you Boost,
Don't mean to be rude I'm just making some observations...
As long as you are sincere and speak maturely, I dont see how you can be rude
Idolfree1 are you supposing that if we follow Kemetic ideology we would somehow have solutions to all our problems in life?
Yes, however that answer is not clear cut as it would seem. Most people see it as the avoidance of problems in life, trying to situate your life so that you have no adversity and have all pleasure, thats not what is being referred to here. That is impossible, we are ALL tested with adversity. However, the knowledge of how to address problems so that you maintain your PEACE throughout is what we are talking about.
If so, I feel like I'm being prostyletised
I dont know what that word means, please explain.
... I have yet to know if this way of thinking would help me understand life and cope with life's problems, so I can't make a judgment call on that issue.
Respected, and that is exactly where you should be at this point. One must study and apply TRUTH to verify it before one can agree with it.
But I know that everyone has problems and nobody is immune to the crap we go thru in this world .
Correct, everyone is sent ADVERSITY, but as you must surely confirm, not everyone RESPONDS to a particular adversity in the same way. And this is the CRUX of the issue, our RESPONSE. Our RESPONSES to the "triggers" of life are AUTOMATIC from the subconscious, and it is the subconscious that we must reprogram to give the CORRECT automatic response. That is the purpose of salaat.
So I just feel a bit skeptical when someone tries to sell me a "way of life" that would magically transform my life into this utopia. That somehow I will be above the very human emotions of heartbreak, grief, regret, guilt, anger, sadness and dejection...
Yes, those emotions are VERY HUMAN, but Knowledge of SELF, when understood shows you that you are not a HUMAN having a spiritual experience, but a SPIRIT having a human experience. With all of the emotions you listed, you must realize that not everyone responds to events the same way, so what might be heartbreak, grief, regret to some will not be to others, THEREFORE, it is not the EVENT ITSELF that is responsible for those emotions, it is our RESPONSE, do you see and verify that? If not, we can break this down further because this is a crucial aspect and can be EMPIRICALLY verified.
If the solutions to life's problems you were alluding to in your list of questions is not a way of curing it but a way of coping with it then I'd be more inclined to believe it.
If there is a fire in your house, you dont "cope" with the fire. I am talking about transcendence here, and we have all experienced it, we just need to apply it to all things. A big problem is that we are given models of humans to live up to when we should be using the GOD as our example to live up to. Our goal here is to be GOD-LIKE all the time. That is the standard we should be using.
But of course, all of the answers to these questions for me is YES.
Thank you for your honesty and please hang in there with me as I try to lay the foundation. The answers to these questions are YES for everyone unless they just want to deliberately be difficult.
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If so, I feel like I'm being prostyletised
I dont know what that word means, please explain.
The word is a typo or mispelled and should be proselytized.
To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.Come'on Kyle, be a little "creative".
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Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
I'm not speaking for Idolfree1 here, but I believe their is a "correct" way to live our life. Whether that leads to troubles (BECAUSE the rest of the world doesn't follow it) is not that philosophy's fault.
And isn't this what the quran teaches as well? that there is a "straight path" for us to follow?
I don't think it's about eliminating external suffering, but getting rid of INternal suffering that most of us are going through in our lives. Whatever happens in the physical world, our hearts are at peace.Beautifully said!!! I wish I understood that at your age ;D
What you explained is the symbolism of mummification, we are not subject to the EXTERNAL conditions.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Whats correct for one person may not be correct for another..... 'know thyself'...
Yes, "know thySELF", not "know thySELVES". The SELF is ONE. It is correct for ALL PEOPLE to be God-Like.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
The word is a typo or mispelled and should be proselytized.
To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.I thought it meant something like that, but I tried to copy and paste it to my dictionary and didnt find anything.
With this understanding, I am definately doing that, I am certainly trying to convince others of verifyable truth, BUT I am not FORCING anyone. Its only common sense to try to convince others of something you have learned that is beneficial to thier lives.
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Peace be upon you Enquirer,
Whats correct for one person may not be correct for another..... 'know thyself'...
Yes, "know thySELF", not "know thySELVES". The SELF is ONE. It is correct for ALL PEOPLE to be God-Like.
Well, that depends whether you're addressing a single person (thySELF) or several at a time (thySELVES), like you said that it is correct for ALL PEOPLE. Besides, how would you relate the "know thySELF" to "put yourself in others' shoes"?
As much as I would love to further my knowledge in Kemetic Philosophy, I'd like you to first explain "What is God-Like"?
Kyle, I may sound harsh in questioning, but please take this as a discussion and nothing personal. You must satisfy your reasoning by logical and/or scientific deductions for what we KNOW is TRUTH. Just keep in mind that anything delusional, an assumption or an imagination will immediately put you on the wrong spot and defenseless.
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and Peace also with you Idolfree1
THEREFORE, it is not the EVENT ITSELF that is responsible for those emotions, it is our RESPONSE, do you see and verify that? If not, we can break this down further because this is a crucial aspect and can be EMPIRICALLY verified.
I agree with you that our response is our emotions but ... how do you stay at peace when a loved one was brutally murdered or raped? How do you stay at peace when your son or daughter has decided to take a destructive path and heading for trouble? There are times when being at peace and happy does not work. Certain events trigger our fright or flight response rushing adrenaline thru our veins. Other events can make us depressed like those with seasonal depression who start to feel depressed after days without seeing the sun. These are events that induce emotions. If I'm running away from a stalker I can't be worried about how at peace I am with the world. Being in a calm, peaceful state only works when all is well with the world. But when traumatic things happen, it is a very human and normal reaction to cry, scream, panic, etc. You could eventually work your way to a peaceful state and don't let those emotions control you, but having them at least initially I think is inevitable in some circumstances.
If you disagree please explain with real-life examples. Sometimes ideas look really good in theory but in the real world they can prove to be unrealistic
And thank you Danish for explaining my butchered word ;D
I was actually typing that post while on the phone ... talk about multi-tasking o
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Peace be upon you,
Idolfree1
Yes, "know thySELF", not "know thySELVES". The SELF is ONE. It is correct for ALL PEOPLE to be God-Like.Well, that depends whether you're addressing a single person (thySELF) or several at a time (thySELVES), like you said that it is correct for ALL PEOPLE.
The concept of SELF, when we are talking about Knowledge of SELF, is always singular. The SELF is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that manifests through all beings.
Besides, how would you relate the "know thySELF" to "put yourself in others' shoes"?
All Beings consist of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS(SELF) and the multitude of "persons". The word "person" means "through sound", meaning that your vehicle is that which a sound flows through. To make it simple, mankind is joined at the top and seperate at the bottom. When we speak of putting ourselves in other "persons" places, we are speaking of the seperate portion of BEING.
As much as I would love to further my knowledge in Kemetic Philosophy, I'd like you to first explain "What is God-Like"?
"God-Like" speaks of the behavior that best benefits each person and the whole. We ascertain this TRUTH by looking at the relationships of life. We are talking science here. Science is not oppossed to God, Science proves God.
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Peace be upon you Boost,
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THEREFORE, it is not the EVENT ITSELF that is responsible for those emotions, it is our RESPONSE, do you see and verify that? If not, we can break this down further because this is a crucial aspect and can be EMPIRICALLY verified.I agree with you that our response is our emotions but ... how do you stay at peace when a loved one was brutally murdered or raped? How do you stay at peace when your son or daughter has decided to take a destructive path and heading for trouble? There are times when being at peace and happy does not work.
I am not saying that it is easy, it is hard work, but after every difficulty is relief. What I am saying is that you have to work right now on preparing your spirit for difficult times that are sure to come to everyone. Being at peace always works because the opposite of being at peace is stress and emotion, which clouds your reasoning. When you are in a difficult situation, you need to be able to reason the solution properly, if you fall victim to emotions, you will dig yourself deeper.
Let me ask you this , if your child was murdered, what would be the difference in you staying at peace and taking care of the responsibilities needed to be handled and helping other family members cope, etc, as oppossed to falling apart and not being able to handle responsibility and possibly not being able to go to work and make a living and not being able to attend to the rest of your children, etc etc. ?
I am not saying it is easy, we have to prepare for it. But can you see the logic of it? Who taught us that the response to death was sadness? Why are there different levels of this "sadness" depending on how close the person is to us? )
Certain events trigger our fright or flight response rushing adrenaline thru our veins. Other events can make us depressed like those with seasonal depression who start to feel depressed after days without seeing the sun. These are events that induce emotions. If I'm running away from a stalker I can't be worried about how at peace I am with the world.
Yes, the fight or flight response is pre programmed in us and is useful, so we dont reprogram that. What I am saying is that our first response to anything is Peace, then we apply the CORRECT emotion based on proper reasoning. because as you just stated, our responses are automatic, like flight or flight when a car is abot to run us over and we jump out of the way. We do not reprogram that because we dont want to die. ) But responses that are not beneficial to us we reprogram. Being sad when someone dies is a learned response. If you go to a funeral you will see people reacting in many different ways.
Being in a calm, peaceful state only works when all is well with the world. But when traumatic things happen, it is a very human and normal reaction to cry, scream, panic, etc.
No, you think it is natural because you have been conditioned since birth and so have the people around you so they "verify" your responses. But when you look objectively at others and see that not everyone responds the same way, what does that tell you? It should tell you that "sadness" ect is not a property of the thing/event itself and since it is bad for us, it is not natural.
You could eventually work your way to a peaceful state and don't let those emotions control you, but having them at least initially I think is inevitable in some circumstances.
Yes, it is inevitable in todays society because we grow up conditioned, so yes, we will start off with many emotions to transcend. I am no telling you that I am peaceful 100%, I am probably at the same level as you , but I am actively working on it through meditataion. We use imagery and truisms to role play sitations over and over in our mind. The spirit does not differentiate between what is real or imagined, that is the KEY. Professional athletes use image work to perfect thier game. If you play it over in your head successfully BEFORE it happens, you will be prepared. Some things take more repititions than others.
If you disagree please explain with real-life examples. Sometimes ideas look really good in theory but in the real world they can prove to be unrealistic
I think I have done so above, but lets try this. Suposse you have a wife or girlfriend, etc. You are "in Love" if she dies tragically, you are sad and heartbroken. But lets say, that this wife cheats on you with your best friend, and your father, and your son, then leaves you and takes all your money. This VERY SAME PERSON now dies tragically, do you think you will be "sad"? if not WHY?
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Yes, "know thySELF", not "know thySELVES". The SELF is ONE. It is correct for ALL PEOPLE to be God-Like.
Well, that depends whether you're addressing a single person (thySELF) or several at a time (thySELVES), like you said that it is correct for ALL PEOPLE.
The concept of SELF, when we are talking about Knowledge of SELF, is always singular. The SELF is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that manifests through all beings.
The concept of know thySelf is directly congruent/superimposed and bonded to know thySelves right from birth, without which the SELF by ITSELF cannot KNOW.
Besides, how would you relate the "know thySELF" to "put yourself in others' shoes"?
All Beings consist of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS(SELF) and the multitude of "persons". When we speak of putting ourselves in other "persons" places, we are speaking of the seperate portion of BEING.
When we are relating thySELF with thySELVES, only then we are talking about significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE. An anology would be that of a TREE which is by itself a significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE.
As much as I would love to further my knowledge in Kemetic Philosophy, I'd like you to first explain "What is God-Like"?
"God-Like" speaks of the behavior that best benefits each person and the whole. We ascertain this TRUTH by looking at the relationships of life. We are talking science here. Science is not oppossed to God, Science proves God.
Science has never proven GOD and perhaps never will. The term "God-like", manifests duality. Everything is in its morphic dualism, i.e. the change an entity undergoes carrying with it the good and the bad. In simple words, the God-like is both good and bad, hence everything is both good and bad.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
IF1
The concept of SELF, when we are talking about Knowledge of SELF, is always singular. The SELF is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that manifests through all beings.The concept of know thySelf is directly congruent/superimposed and bonded to know thySelves right from birth, without which the SELF by ITSELF cannot KNOW.
What are you talking about? ;D The "SELF" comes before any "PERSONS". To use an example, there is a white light(SELF) that shines through different colored window panes (Persons). People get cuaght up in the seperation of the red from th eyellow from the green, etc. The object is to know thySELF (singular), the ONE white light that is at the origin of the colored lights. I hope that clarifies it for you.
IF1
All Beings consist of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS(SELF) and the multitude of "persons". When we speak of putting ourselves in other "persons" places, we are speaking of the seperate portion of BEING.When we are relating thySELF with thySELVES, only then we are talking about significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE. An anology would be that of a TREE which is by itself a significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE.
I have no clue what you are saying here.
IF1
"God-Like" speaks of the behavior that best benefits each person and the whole. We ascertain this TRUTH by looking at the relationships of life. We are talking science here. Science is not oppossed to God, Science proves God.Science has never proven GOD and perhaps never will.
Science proves God the same way it proves wind, by the effect.
The term "God-like", manifests duality. Everything is in its morphic dualism, i.e. the change an entity undergoes carrying with it the good and the bad. In simple words, the God-like is both good and bad, hence everything is both good and bad.
I didnt say anything about "good" or "bad", I said that which benefits the parts and the whole. The terms "good" and "bad" are subjective terms, whats "good" to one person is "bad" to another. I am speaking of objectivism, we have to LOOK at the world and see what is BEST for the parts and the whole together.
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Peace Idolfree1
Are emotions nurtured or is it nature? I think this is the crux of the issue. I 100% agree and verify that your information is true with respect to our responses to situations. People of different cultures respond to death in different ways and they are very much connected to what is socially accepted as being what is the "right" response. But emotions are a little different. All humans have a wide range of emotions and they are not all positive. I think your idea of meditating and using imagery to get over certain negative events before they happen are very powerful tools. It may be a way to cope with the situation in a more calm manner, but it certainly does not cancel out that certain emotions are part of the human plight. In effect it is nature and not nurture that we cry, are fearful, panic, etc.
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm saying I don't think you can cancel out emotions but you can cope with them using various methods, one of which you alluded to.
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The concept of SELF, when we are talking about Knowledge of SELF, is always singular. The SELF is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that manifests through all beings.
The concept of know thySelf is directly congruent/superimposed and bonded to know thySelves right from birth, without which the SELF by ITSELF cannot KNOW.
What are you talking about? ;D The "SELF" comes before any "PERSONS". To use an example, there is a white light(SELF) that shines through different colored window panes (Persons). People get cuaght up in the seperation of the red from th eyellow from the green, etc. The object is to know thySELF (singular), the ONE white light that is at the origin of the colored lights. I hope that clarifies it for you.
What I am talking about in plain language is this without knowing anything about what comes and goes around you, meaning everything that surrounds oneself, you have no way of knowing yourself.
All Beings consist of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS(SELF) and the multitude of "persons". When we speak of putting ourselves in other "persons" places, we are speaking of the seperate portion of BEING.
When we are relating thySELF with thySELVES, only then we are talking about significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE. An anology would be that of a TREE which is by itself a significant WHOLE and not the entire WHOLE.
I have no clue what you are saying here.
I thought so. A tree is known by its own environment in which it lives and nourishes, by the fruit it bears, by the flowers and leaves it blooms, by the colors it displays, by the stem, roots and branches it speads out. The SEED itself has no bearing without its environment. Each Tree is a significant WHOLE.
"God-Like" speaks of the behavior that best benefits each person and the whole. We ascertain this TRUTH by looking at the relationships of life. We are talking science here. Science is not oppossed to God, Science proves God.
Science has never proven GOD and perhaps never will.
Science proves God the same way it proves wind, by the effect.
Neither science nor religion nor you, has proven anything. If it has, bring your proofs. GOD (a cosmological one) is simply a figment of our imagination; we only think, theorize, hypothesise, mesmerize, infatuate, with the notion that there MAY BE or IS a GOD or GODS. Beyond this notion, there lies nothing but fairy tales, towards which, Man has done an excellent job in shrewd and deceptive perceptions to lure one into Religions.
The term "God-like", manifests duality. Everything is in its morphic dualism, i.e. the change an entity undergoes carrying with it the good and the bad. In simple words, the God-like is both good and bad, hence everything is both good and bad.
I didnt say anything about "good" or "bad", I said that which benefits the parts and the whole. The terms "good" and "bad" are subjective terms, whats "good" to one person is "bad" to another. I am speaking of objectivism, we have to LOOK at the world and see what is BEST for the parts and the whole together.
I know you didn't say anything about 'good' or 'bad' and that's why I questioned the integrity of being "God-like" by the very good and bad it brings about. So once again, what is God-like??? Can you name at least one thing that is all good or all bad on this earth?
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Peace be upon you Boost,
Are emotions nurtured or is it nature? I think this is the crux of the issue.
Emotions are part of BEING, so they are part of our nature. But what must be understood is exactly what emotions are. They are ENERGIES. There is a part of our BEING that is energetic. An energy that moves us towards that which we "like and away from that which we "dislike". It is ENERGY that puts in motion the atoms and molecules of our BEING. That which we label "fear", "anger", "sadness" etc is nothing but ENERGY moving through our BEING that we ASSOCIATE with certain thoughts and images that come to us due to conditioning. Again, the key comes in the objective verification that what "angers" one person does not "anger" another. That simple verifyable statement is solid proof that "anger" is not an attribute of the particular event, but it is a conditioned response. All of which can be transcended.
Here is another crucial aspect. We NEED emotions. This is where the Hindus have gone wrong, they teach that one must KILL OUT thier desires/emotions. That is not what the ancients of Khamit taught. Instead, we must transcend emotion and put it in its proper place, that of SERVANT to the WILL. The Goal is not to be moved by a challege in life, but to meet it with PEACE(no emotion), THEN once we have clearly seen th esolution because we remained at peace, we ALLOW the proper emotion to follow.
This whole "story" is about who is on the THRONE, is it your Divine SELF, or is it you emotions? If you tell yourself that you are going to start eating right and working out, but on your way home from work you smell Kentucky Fried Chicken and you are COMPELLED to eat it, you did not chose, you were forced (although your mind will try to convince you that it was your own choice/satan makes it fair seeming). Then you get home and are to lazy to woork out. Its because the emotions are on the throne, and you must go to war to remove the emotions from the throne. Thats why there is this metaphor of WAR going on in the holy teachings. Its not about some terrorist jihad, its about the struggle(jihad) to remove the emotions from the throne and put the WILL back on the throne.
I 100% agree and verify that your information is true with respect to our responses to situations.
Yes, just continue to verify this. Burn this into your spirit, sow this seed into your "garden" because this crucial fact is very crucial and the more you witness his the clearer truth becomes. I am not speaking arrogantly or anything like this, it is just that I have already done this and am speaking from experience because I saw what you are seeing now. But we cant let this understanding fade away, it will open up so much understanding, I guarantee it..
People of different cultures respond to death in different ways and they are very much connected to what is socially accepted as being what is the "right" response.
Correct.
But emotions are a little different. All humans have a wide range of emotions and they are not all positive.
No ) They are not different, they are the ENERGY that powers our responses, not seperate from our responses.
I think your idea of meditating and using imagery to get over certain negative events before they happen are very powerful tools. It may be a way to cope with the situation in a more calm manner, but it certainly does not cancel out that certain emotions are part of the human plight. In effect it is nature and not nurture that we cry, are fearful, panic, etc.
All I will say to you is keep watching and reflecting on this. It will begin to become clear that our only natural response is PEACE (which is why we greet PEACE be upon you). Afterwards we can allow the proper emotion to follow. For example, you set your alarm to get up one hour early in order to work out and get healthy. When the alarm goes off, you get a energy that comes to you along with the thought that "I can start working out tommorrow" and the image of yourself sleeping an extra hour. But if you remian at peace, then your reasoning faculty remains intact and you can reason that getting up to work out is best for you, and then you allow the emotions to follow that so you can get out of bed. But whats even better is that the more you do that, then the soirit(nafs) eventually reprograms itself. So soon, when you hear the alarm, yuor ENERGY gets you out of bed automatically because you now LOVE working out and like the energy you have from being healthy, etc.
When you get emotional, blood leaves your brain and other vital organs to go to "fight or flight" mode, therefore your IQ drops, ect. Thats why when people calm down, they realize what they should have done which they couldnt see while "upset", "sad", or whatever label we give to the ENERGY.
I think we're saying the same thing in different ways. I'm saying I don't think you can cancel out emotions but you can cope with them using various methods, one of which you alluded to.
Yes, we do NOT cancel out emotions like the indus teach, but we put them in the proper place. The Bible claims that Jesus said "Satan, get ye BEHIND me", thats to say that we must put the ANIMAL (metaphor for emotions, that which ANIMATES) behind you. Thats why the pictures of so called "satan" are animalistic (hooves, horns, etc). Solomon teaches us how to put the jinn (smokeless fire=energy) to work for us.
We should never let the horses drag us around where they want to go, instead we must take the reins and direct the horses(emotions).
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Peace Idolfree1
Thanks for your detailed response. I think it made alot of sense. Especially the part where you explained that all the blood rushes to vital organs during fight or flight in highly charged emotions and thats why hindsight is always 20/20. Excellent point that won me over D
However, I'm still trying to get around your idea that we are all mini-gods and we just have to tap into that power to become divine. It reminds of those 5%ers ... Please explain because I don't think that's compatible with quranic teachings in the least.
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Peace be upon you Danish,
What I am talking about in plain language is this without knowing anything about what comes and goes around you, meaning everything that surrounds oneself, you have no way of knowing yourself.
Agreed, Before there was any talk of "God" there was the understanding of science, and the deeper and deeper science got, the more people came to understand that there MUST be an intelligence prior to this magnificent ORDER. Science brought us to GOD. Doesnt this reading(quran) say that "We will show you the signs in the horizons and within your spirit(nafs) until you KNOW this is the truth"?
I thought so. A tree is known by its own environment in which it lives and nourishes, by the fruit it bears, by the flowers and leaves it blooms, by the colors it displays, by the stem, roots and branches it speads out. The SEED itself has no bearing without its environment. Each Tree is a significant WHOLE.
Yes on the physical level, but is not a tree made from electrons protons and nuetrons just like your body? And when you break down electrons protons and nuetrons all you get is ONE ENERGY? Dont get trapped in the illusion of this world. We must be in the world but not of the world. Man is suppossed to be the balance between the Divine realm and the Physical Realm.
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Science proves God the same way it proves wind, by the effect.Neither science nor religion nor you, has proven anything. If it has, bring your proofs.
They are all around you. You must study science and mathematics and you will see how from the "Big Bang" everything manifested according to a strict mathematical pattern, thus giving us the ability to have science like chemistry, where elements are organized mathematicaly, etc. We verify the God by the EFFECTS. However, you may contiue to be confused if your "image" of God is some object out in space rather than the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS, the BODILESS INTELLIGENCE that is at the core of all BEINGS.
GOD (a cosmological one) is simply a figment of our imagination; we only think, theorize, hypothesise, mesmerize, infatuate, with the notion that there MAY BE or IS a GOD or GODS. Beyond this notion, there lies nothing but fairy tales, towards which, Man has done an excellent job in shrewd and deceptive perceptions to lure one into Religions.
Do we think, theorize, mesmerize, infatuate about WIND? or Gravity? or THOUGHTS?
I know you didn't say anything about 'good' or 'bad' and that's why I questioned the integrity of being "God-like" by the very good and bad it brings about.
How are you questioning the integrity of something I didnt even mention? Do you see that you have your own preconcieved ideas yet you want me to explain? )
So once again, what is God-like??? Can you name at least one thing that is all good or all bad on this earth?
You see how we go in circles when you question that which I never said? I am talking about behavior that benefits the parts and the whole. So an example would be sharing of wealth. Do you agree that sharing of wealth is beneficial to all parts and the whole?