Interesting difference: muslimeen & mumineen
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Peace all,
the words are not "Lam Yadkhul Al Iman Fi Qlubikum" which means Belief did not enter your hearts
the words are "Lamma Yadkhul Al Iman Fi Qlubikum", i.e. Lamma not Lam, and means "When the belief enters your heart", i.e. the right belief then they should know that they should submitt to Allah
check with any Arabic speaker that Lamma " ", is not for denial
Not a single translator out of the following 17 translators has translated 4914 as Ahmed has done
Transliteration Qalati al-aAArabu amanna qul lam tu/minoo walakin qooloo aslamna walamma yadkhuli al-eemanu fee quloobikum wa-in tuteeAAoo Allaha warasoolahu la yalitkum min aAAmalikum shay-an inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
Literal The Arabs (often mistranslated as nomads or Bedouins, refer to 4816) said "We believed." Say "You did not believe, and but say 'We submitted/became Moslem ' and the faith/belief did not (E) enter in your hearts/minds . And if you obey God and His messenger He does not reduce/diminish you a thing from your deeds , that truly God (is) forgiving, merciful."
Free-Minds The Nomads said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Shakir The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Pickthal The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Arberry The Bedouins say, 'We believe.' Say 'You do not believe; rather say, "We surrender"; for belief has not yet entered your hearts. If you obey God and His Messenger, He will not diminish you anything of your works. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.'
George Sale The Arabs of the desert say, we believe. Answer, ye do by no means believe; but say, we have embraced Islam For the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. If ye obey God and his Apostle, He will not defraud you of any part of the merit of your works For God is inclined to forgive, and merciful.
Hilali/Khan The bedouins say "We believe." Say "You believe not but you only say, We have surrendered (in Islam), for Faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you obey Allah and His Messenger (SAW), He will not decrease anything in reward for your deeds. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Malik The beduin Arabs say "We have believed." Tell them "You have not believed; rather say 'We have become Muslims;' for faith has not yet found its way into your hearts. If you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deny you the reward of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Maulana Ali The dwellers of the desert say We believe. Say You believe not, but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds. Surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
QXP The Bedouins say, "We have attained belief." Say (O Prophet), "You have not yet attained belief, but rather say, 'We have submitted (to the System)', for the Faith has not yet entered your hearts. Yet, if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish (the reward of) any of your works. Verily, Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
Sarwar The bedouin Arabs have said, "We are believers." Tell them, "You are not believers, but you should say that you are Muslims. In fact, belief has not yet entered your hearts. If you obey God and His Messenger, nothing will be reduced from your deeds. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Rashad Khalifa The Arabs said, "We are Mu'mens (believers)." Say, "You have not believed; what you should say is, `We are Muslims (submitters),' until belief is established in your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
M Asad THE BEDOUIN say, ?We have attained to faith.? Say ?You have not attained to faith; you should say, ?We have surrendered? - for faith has not yet entered your hearts. But if you pay heed unto God and His Apostle, He will not let the least of your deeds go to waste for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.?
J M Rodwell The Arabs of the desert say, "We believe." Say thou Ye believe not; but rather say, "We profess Islam;" for the faith hath not yet found its way into your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, he will not allow you to lose any of your actions for God is Indulgent, Merciful.
Sher Ali The Arabs of the desert say,
We believe.' Say,You have not truly believed yet, but rather say, `We have submitted, for true faith has not yet entered into your hearts.' But if you obey Allah and HIS Messenger, HE will not detract anything from your deeds. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.T B Irving The desert Arabs say "We believe." SAY "You have not yet believed, but say 'We commit ourselves to peace'. Yet belief has not penetrated your hearts. If you obey God and His messenger, He will not slight you in any of your actions. God is Forgiving, Merciful!"
I wonder why no one translates "lamma" as "when" in this verse ???
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Hello all
if you read 4914 again you will see that under the flawed understanding that Belief is higher than Submitting, then belief is not required because Allah told the prophet to tell those Arabs, DO NOT SAY THAT WE BELIEVE rather to say we Aslamna, i.e. belief is not required and only Islam is required
but if Being a Muslim means being already a believer then 4914 stands accurate
i.e. being a true Muslim means you are a true believer already because Muslim is a higher level of a believer
I will show some verses later
Salam
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Hello all
according to 4914, how come they can be considered believers if the request was to Aslamo?
i.e. Aslam is a higher level than a believer
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maybe we need to look for all the times lamma appears in the quran to see what it can mean? because as an arabic speaker also i have only ever known lamma to mean "when" ?
although i dont have the capacity for arabic text here so i cant do a search! ??? -
I'm talking about the verse you are talking about
the words are not "Lam Yadkhul Al Iman Fi Qlubikum" which means Belief did not enter your hearts
the words are "Lamma Yadkhul Al Iman Fi Qlubikum", i.e. Lamma not Lam, and means "When the belief enters your heart", i.e. the right belief then they should know that they should submitt to Allah
check with any Arabic speaker that Lamma " ", is not for denial
do you get it?
I think you are right about "lamma". Verses 1013, 2101, 1177, 2933, 4083 seem to confirm it. But I will have to check the usage of this word in other verses as well before I can be sure.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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maybe we need to look for all the times lamma appears in the quran to see what it can mean? because as an arabic speaker also i have only ever known lamma to mean "when" ?
although i dont have the capacity for arabic text here so i cant do a search! ???You are right Lamma means When
you can search for arabic words in here
http//quran.muslim-web.com/
Salam
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Peace Fahad, all,
I just researched the occurrences of "lamma" in al-qur'aan. I found 3 different meanings
Lamma = when (289, 2101, 2214, 2250, 3165, 65, 7126, 7134, 7143, 7149, 7150, 7154, 1013, 1054, 1077, 1098, 1158, 1177, 1194, 11101, 1222, 1259, 1265, 1268, 1269, 1294, 1422, 1859, 2537, 2621, 2814, 2822, 2823, 2931, 2933, 2968, 3224, 3322, 3433, 3443, 4066, 4085, 4141, 4244, 4330, 4357, 4363, 467, 505, 6851, 6911, 7213, 7219, 8023)
Lamma = that (11111, 3632, 4335, 864)
Lamma = not (3142, 916, 1039, 388, 4914, 623)
Verses with "lamma" as "not"
3142 Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet distinguished (lamma ya3lam) those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) distinguished the patient.
916 What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet distinguished (lamma ya3lam) those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken any one as an adherent besides Allah and His Messenger and the believers; and Allah is aware of what you do.
1039 No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, and its explanation has not come to them (lamma ya'tihim). It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
388 "Has the remembrance been sent down to him, from between all of us!" Indeed, they are doubtful of My reminder. Indeed, they have not yet tasted (lamma yathooqoo) My retribution.
4914 The Arabs said "We believe." Say "You have not believed; but you should Say 'We have surrendered', for belief has not yet entered (lamma yadkhuli) into your hearts." If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
623 And others from among them who have not yet joined them (lamma yalhaqoo); and He is the Mighty, the Wise.
It seems that whenever "lamma" is used for something that has not yet happened, it means "not". The expert native Arabic speaker fluent in Arabic should have known that !!
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Hmmm
"It seems"
then
"Should know"
hmmm again
dismissed
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Hmmm
"It seems"
then
"Should know"
hmmm again
dismissed
1039 No, they have lied about that which they did not have knowledge of, and its explanation has not come to them (lamma ya'tihim). It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
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Hello All
actually Lamma in 1039 means "WHEN", but I dont have time to waste with that ignorant guy up there
anyway, here is a good one
?And Musa said O my people! if you believe in Allah, then rely on Him (alone) if you submit (to Allah).?
(84)
-> Obviously Moses is telling the Jews, to be submitters they need to rely on Allah AFTER they BELIEVED, therefore ?Muslimeen? can not be the same as ?Mumineen? when the ?Mumineen? rely on Allah they will be ?Muslimeen? ie. ?Submitters?
I rest my case # 1
Salam
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Peace all,
The "fluent" Arabic speaker is now inventing a contradiction in al-qur'aan.
?And Musa said O my people! if you believe in Allah, then rely on Him (alone) if you submit (to Allah).?
(84)
-> Obviously Moses is telling the Jews, to be submitters they need to rely on Allah AFTER they BELIEVED, therefore ?Muslimeen? can not be the same as ?Mumineen? when the ?Mumineen? rely on Allah they will be ?Muslimeen? ie. ?Submitters?
I rest my case # 1
His above false conclusion contradicts 2277-78 where mumineen are clearly being called muslimeen, and also contradicts 4914 where one can be a muslim first and then a mumin.
1084 actually is confirming 4914 that mumineen are muslimeen first. If The God tells someone "if you believe Me then trust Me, if you submit to Me", that will mean that the other person has submitted to The God first and then He is asking that person to believe Him. So submitter first, then believer.
The deceptive interpretation of the "fluent" Arab can only be true if Moses had said "if you believe The God, then rely on Him, so you can submit to Him". 1084 is obviously not saying that.
They say that if the measuring rod itself is bad, one will never be able to get an accurate measure
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Hello All
Here is anther good one
?And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.?
(46)
-> In 2946 we see that the ?already? believers should say to the people of the book THAT THEY BELIEVED in the one God, and TO HIM they submit, this is very important verse because IN Allah we believe, and ??, TO Allah we submit, CLEAR AS LIGHT ?Lahu Muslimoon? which happened after they believed in him as Moses asked the jews to do in 1084
we can't submit to Him before we believe in Him
I rest my case # 2
Salam
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Peace all,
The "fluent" Arabic speaker, who did not happen to know one of the meanings of "lamma", is inventing yet another contradiction in al-qur'aan
?And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.?
(46)
-> In 2946 we see that the ?already? believers should say to the people of the book THAT THEY BELIEVED in the one God, and TO HIM they submit, this is very important verse because IN Allah we believe, and ??, TO Allah we submit, CLEAR AS LIGHT ?Lahu Muslimoon? which happened after they believed in him as Moses asked the jews to do in 1084
we can't submit to Him before we believe in Him
I rest my case # 2
If I say that I believe in The God and submit to Him, that does not mean that I submit to The God after I believe in Him, but it would mean that I believe and submit at the same time. The "fluent" Arab would only be correct if it had said "We believe in ................ and THEN to Him we submit".
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Hello All
Here is another good one
Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
(84)
-> Another compelling verses that shows Islam is a status that is reached after decalring the belief, see how the order was TO SAY WE BELIEVE, under the flawed understanding that To submit is less than to believe then the above verse is a clear cut contradiction "God forbids" because in 4914, it says "don't say we believe", but here it says "say we believe", see
-> We can also read that after they decalred their belief they decalred their submission to Allah at the end of the verse, another compelling evidence that Submitting to Allah is higher than believeing in Allah
i.e. not every believer is a submitter to Allah
and very submitter to Allah must be a believer in Allah
this makes sense to a child
you can't submit to Allah before you believe in Him
let me say it in another way in case we have children reading this thread
you can only submit to Allah after you beliive that He exists
yep this way it makes sense to children
I rest my case # 3
Salam
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Peace all,
The "fluent" Arab who doesn't know one of the meanings of "lamma" is inventing yet another contradiction in al-qur'aan
Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
(84)
-> Another compelling verses that shows Islam is a status that is reached after decalring the belief, see how the order was TO SAY WE BELIEVE, under the flawed understanding that To submit is less than to believe then the above verse is a clear cut contradiction "God forbids" because in 4914, it says "don't say we believe", but here it says "say we believe", see
-> We can also read that after they decalred their belief they decalred their submission to Allah at the end of the verse, another compelling evidence that Submitting to Allah is higher than believeing in Allah
i.e. not every believer is a submitter to Allah
and very submitter to Allah must be a believer in Allah
this makes sense to a child
you can't submit to Allah before you believe in Him
let me say it in another way in case we have children reading this thread
you can only submit to Allah after you beliive that He exists
yep this way it makes sense to children
I rest my case # 3
This is the same as 2946, and I repeat
If I say that I believe in The God and submit to Him, that does not mean that I submit to The God after I believe in Him, but it would mean that I believe and submit at the same time. The "fluent" Arab would only be correct if it had said "We believe in ................ and THEN to Him we submit".
STRIKE # 3
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Hello All
Here another good one
68- O My servants! there is no fear for you this day, nor shall you grieve.
69- (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam (Submission).
70- Enter the garden, you and your wives; you shall be made happy.
(6
(69)
(70)-> See how it 4369 says those who believed and submitted, i.e. belief is first then submission is second
I rest my case # 4
Salam
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Peace all,
The "fluent" Arab who doesn't know one of the meanings of "lamma" is inventing yet another contradiction in al-qur'aan
68- O My servants! there is no fear for you this day, nor shall you grieve.
69- (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam (Submission).
70- Enter the garden, you and your wives; you shall be made happy.
(6
(69)
(70)-> See how it 4369 says those who believed and submitted, i.e. belief is first then submission is second
I rest my case # 4
Same thing again. If I talk about people who believed in the signs and submitted, it would mean that they believed and submitted at the same time. the "fluent Arab would be correct only if it had said "those who believed in our signs and THEN bowed in submission".
STRIKE #4 .................. Keep em comin
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Hello All
Here is a killer of an argument
Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.
(81)
What else I can say brothers and sisters with Albab (brains)?
well here it is in big letters
" ", i.e. "but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.", can yuo can you see the word SHALL?
I.E. They believed first then they shall submit second
I rest my case # 5
Salam
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Lol brothers and sisters
there is no question that 2781 slam dunked the ignorance shown by some so called muslims
I rest my case for now untill I see some members with brains reply
I still have many verses btw
Thanks All
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Peace all,
Here the "fluent" Arab is deliberately mistranslating the words of The God which is a killer proof that he is a great deceiver
Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.
(81)
What else I can say brothers and sisters with Albab (brains)?
well here it is in big letters
" ", i.e. "but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.", can yuo can you see the word SHALL?
I.E. They believed first then they shall submit second
I rest my case # 5
The correct translations are
2781 PM translation Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance. You can only make those who believe in Our revelations hear you, for they have surrendered.
Yusuf Ali Nor canst thou be a guide to the blind, (to prevent them) from straying only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs, and they will bow in Islam.
This again shows that believer and submitter at same time. There is no "thumma" in this verse.
Now the "fluent" Arab is stooping to new lows !!
STRIKE #5 ............. Keep them coming !!
This verse actually describes the "fluent" Arab quite well "Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance"